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Thread: Titanic Memorial aka Marine Engine Room Men Memorial, Pier Head

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    Default Titanic Memorial aka Marine Engine Room Men Memorial, Pier Head

    Hello folks

    I am in town for a few days and had a walk early this morning round the Pier Head. Had a look at the Titanic Memorial known officially as the Marine Engine Room Men Memorial, because as Taffy wrote recently, since it's "Also felt to be originally a memorial to the lost Titanic engine room men. " Sir William Goscombe John (1860-1952), sculptor, 1916.



    I find it impressive but I am surprised there is no sign in the area around the monument to tell anybody what the memorial is for. True, there is an inscription on the memorial that mentions the engine room men but makes no reference to the Titanic. Also saw what looked like a few chunks out of the memorial on its east and north facing sides which I attribute to shrapnel bomb damage.

    It seems to me that a placard would help enlighten visitors as to the history of the memorial, whether it is meant to be for the men of the engine room of the Titanic, or is only known by tradition as being associated with the Titanic. It would appear to me that since the memorial was erected in 1916 it might also be meant to honor engine room men who died aboard ships in World War I. Possibly the plans for the memorial were in the works for a number of years and while the original plans called for it to honor the engine room men of the Titanic who died when the ship sank in April 1912, but by the time it came to unveil the memorial in 1916 it was felt to be more meaningful to make it more generic in honoring engine room men in general since the Great War was by then ongoing????

    See another pic at "Men of the Machine Engine Room" where some of the shrapnel damage I mentioned above can be seen -- more Pier Head/Liverpool pics also through kate&drew's photostream.


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    Lovely pictures.

    I agree, there should be signs up explaing what monuments and statues are for. i can't even think of a website with them all on.

    but anyway ... hope you enjoy your stay here, have a great time and i'm sure you will have lots of fun
    Don't dream it ... be it !

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    Thanks, Malc.

    Chris
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    Glad to hear you're back in the 'pool Chris. Are you here long? Does anything impress you, or depresses you about the city.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pablo42 View Post
    Glad to hear you're back in the 'pool Chris. Are you here long? Does anything impress you, or depresses you about the city.
    Thanks, Pablo. I like some of the changes but not others. I don't like those shoebox buildings they've put at the Pier Head... but as my mate Geoff says (ex-Rose Lane School like myself, now in Fareham, Hants), at least they're better than that bloody Cloud thing they wanted to build that looked like a deflated football!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Thanks, Pablo. I like some of the changes but not others. I don't like those shoebox buildings they've put at the Pier Head... but as my mate Geoff says (ex-Rose Lane School like myself, now in Fareham, Hants), at least they're better than that bloody Cloud thing they wanted to build that looked like a deflated football!

    Chris
    True, I don't like them myself, but don't dislike them neither. Just think it coulda been better. Still, reckon most things can be done better. Any other observations?

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    Alright Chris, hope u enjoy your stay back in Liverpool matey
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    I watched a programme last week on how Liverpool was built !, it was wonderful, and I didnt realise how many 1sts and biggest in the world we had, I think we should put plaques etc up all over the city to celebrate our wonderful heritage and inform visitors to the city !.
    Hope you enjoy your stay Chris XX

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    Quote Originally Posted by squiggs View Post
    I watched a programme last week on how Liverpool was built !, it was wonderful, and I didnt realise how many 1sts and biggest in the world we had, I think we should put plaques etc up all over the city to celebrate our wonderful heritage and inform visitors to the city !.
    Hope you enjoy your stay Chris XX
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Thanks, Pablo. I like some of the changes but not others. I don't like those shoebox buildings they've put at the Pier Head... but as my mate Geoff says (ex-Rose Lane School like myself, now in Fareham, Hants), at least they're better than that bloody Cloud thing they wanted to build that looked like a deflated football!

    Chris

    Quote Originally Posted by pablo42 View Post
    True, I don't like them myself, but don't dislike them neither. Just think it coulda been better. Still, reckon most things can be done better. Any other observations?
    Hi Pablo

    Thanks for asking for my further impressions of the 'Pool as it is today.

    I was walking along the new canal at the Pier Head yesterday morning and noticed a long-necked bird flying overhead. At first thought it was a heron, which I am used to seeing in the U.S. around the Chesapeake Bay/Baltimore-D.C. area where I live. It turned out to be a swan and was making a kind of squeaking noise as it flew, so could I suppose have been a whistling swan conceivably. I think it's grand that such wildlife is encouraged by the developments and cleanup of waterways. Though looking down I did see juice containers in the water, so it's not all great.

    Could I be correct that as I was standing outside the Crowne Plaza smoking a Hamlet cigar at midnight that the clock on the Liver Building only struck "four" not "twelve"???? I had not had that much drink either. I believe that I have heard that a clock that is undergoing maintenance or needs maintenance may strike an odd number. Also noticed that the east-facing clock was either stopped or was showing a different time to the west-facing clock which was showing the correct time, 4:15 pm as I came back tot he hotel this afternoon.

    Donna and I also went up to the Liverpool FC museum at Anfield this afternoon. A fine experience... brought back a lot of memories. I used to live on Anfield Road as a toddler. Can remember Billy Liddell playing and also when he brought his two twin sons to enroll them at Rose Lane school and how the boys of the school mobbed the corridors to see him... local hero. Was disappointed though that there were several lads of 6-7 years or so running wild round the museum spoiling things a bit for visitors who wanted to enjoy the exhibits and videos. Ugh. They probably needed a guard to shoo them away and straighten up. Another thing that makes you wish for the old days.

    I find myself navigating around Liverpool by guesswork given the number of closed-off or one-way streets. We went to a poetry reading at the Fly in the Loaf on Hardman Street last night. Reading went well enough but the downstairs was mobbed, sound a number of decibels too high, though that did not affect the reading which had nice variety and was well attended. Besides Donna and myself from the USA there was an 83-year-old poet who had come in from New Zealand. Felt a bit exposed when we walked out early 10 PM from your flight the day before and did not like some of the types on the street. Still we got fish and chips from a shop across from the bar, got in our car parked in Rodney Street without incident. I was wise enough to not try to drive through the city centre but went south round the Anglican Cathedral to Gambier Terrace and take Upper Parly down to the Dock Road to get us to the Crowne Plaza where we enjoyed fish and chips watching TV.

    All the best

    Chris
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    Chris.So the swan was the only good thing you found,think Ive been looking at the wrong city all these years.Surely you must have seen at least 1 positive thing,

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    Nice observations Chris.

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    Quote Originally Posted by loudon View Post
    Chris.So the swan was the only good thing you found,think Ive been looking at the wrong city all these years.Surely you must have seen at least 1 positive thing,
    Hey, the city itself is a positive thing. Great great city, the reason I keep coming back. Delighted to be staying at the Pier Head by the Liver Buildings, and witness once again the excellent sweeping view over the Mersey. The buildings and streets I remember. Was present this evening for a folk concert, country and western gig by a club gathered in Ma Boyle's by St. Nicholas's Church, fantastic free entertainment. The Guinnesses weren't bad either. Cheers, mate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Hey, the city itself is a positive thing. Great great city, the reason I keep coming back. Delighted to be staying at the Pier Head by the Liver Buildings, and witness once again the excellent sweeping view over the Mersey. The buildings and streets I remember. Was present this evening for a folk concert, country and western gig by a club gathered in Ma Boyle's by St. Nicholas's Church, fantastic free entertainment. The Guinnesses weren't bad either. Cheers, mate.

    Chris
    Well, sounds like someone is enjoying their return to Liverpool. Have a Guiness for me Chris.

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    Hi Chris,
    I'm an ex-engine room man myself, but have never seen that inscription on the Titanic memorial. I'm up next month for a Harrison Line reunion and will take a look then.
    Hope your trip goes well.
    Kevin

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    Hi Chris,are you stopping at hotel nest to the "sailors" church. Fabulous views if you get the right room . That Titanic memorial, I was taken to see that when I was but a wee boy. my great grandddad Maher had been a White Star greaser and my dad was proud of his heritage. Great granddad Maher had lost a few close friends in that sinking and counted himself lucky that he was still away when they were recruiting for her else he could have been among their number. It was in a prominent position in those days, maybe when all the work is finished it will be prominent once more. Anyway, I hope your time here was enjoyable,
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    Default "Titanic Memorial"

    Hi Chris
    It's great to know that you've made it back to the Pool for a few days. Hope you have a great time.

    There are usually two reasons given for the name "Titanic" being omitted - firstly, as you say, as it was unveiled in 1916, WW1 was in progress and it was felt that all engine room workers should be honoured. Secondly, luxury liners were still leaving from that area in those days and it was felt that seeing the word "Titanic" just before they boarded would make them distinctly nervous. Even though the cruise liners again leave from that spot, I can't see any reason why they couldn't put a plaque nowadays.

    It's an interesting monument as its one of the first to be dedicated to the ordinary working man rather than admirals, generals and royals. Notice how realistic the workers faces are.

    Enjoy the rest of your stay - hopefully you will see the QM2 tomorrow.
    Julie

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Hello folks

    I am in town for a few days and had a walk early this morning round the Pier Head. Had a look at the Titanic Memorial known officially as the Marine Engine Room Men Memorial, because as Taffy wrote recently, since it's "Also felt to be originally a memorial to the lost Titanic engine room men. " Sir William Goscombe John (1860-1952), sculptor, 1916.



    I find it impressive but I am surprised there is no sign in the area around the monument to tell anybody what the memorial is for. True, there is an inscription on the memorial that mentions the engine room men but makes no reference to the Titanic. Also saw what looked like a few chunks out of the memorial on its east and north facing sides which I attribute to shrapnel bomb damage.

    It seems to me that a placard would help enlighten visitors as to the history of the memorial, whether it is meant to be for the men of the engine room of the Titanic, or is only known by tradition as being associated with the Titanic. It would appear to me that since the memorial was erected in 1916 it might also be meant to honor engine room men who died aboard ships in World War I. Possibly the plans for the memorial were in the works for a number of years and while the original plans called for it to honor the engine room men of the Titanic who died when the ship sank in April 1912, but by the time it came to unveil the memorial in 1916 it was felt to be more meaningful to make it more generic in honoring engine room men in general since the Great War was by then ongoing????

    See another pic at "Men of the Machine Engine Room" where some of the shrapnel damage I mentioned above can be seen -- more Pier Head/Liverpool pics also through kate&drew's photostream.

    Chris

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Hey, the city itself is a positive thing. Great great city, the reason I keep coming back. Delighted to be staying at the Pier Head by the Liver Buildings, and witness once again the excellent sweeping view over the Mersey. The buildings and streets I remember. Was present this evening for a folk concert, country and western gig by a club gathered in Ma Boyle's by St. Nicholas's Church, fantastic free entertainment. The Guinnesses weren't bad either. Cheers, mate.

    Chris
    Enjoy your visit Chris,....well,it sounds like you already are!

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    Hope you're having fun fun fun CG
    Enjoy your visit and the Guinness

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    I was reading a book today in Asda, about old Liverpool. The engine room meorial was pictured, and it stated it was the Luisitania Memorial. What exactly is it called.

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    To me it will always be the memorial to the engine room heroes of all ships ,which was what it was subscribed for
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Hi Pablo

    Thanks for asking for my further impressions of the 'Pool as it is today.

    I was walking along ...

    Thanks for your thoughts and it's great to see you had a good time.

    I know a lot has been done on the Baltimore waterfront. I'd be interested to hear any comparisons between the two cities which I have suppose have something in common?

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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    Thanks for your thoughts and it's great to see you had a good time.

    I know a lot has been done on the Baltimore waterfront. I'd be interested to hear any comparisons between the two cities which I have suppose have something in common?
    It took a very long time for the Baltimore waterfront to be successful - 15 years I think. The TV images of riots, prior to the redevelopment, left a lasting impression in the mind of the average American. What made a difference was the building of a festival market hall - an event venue. People travelled there for events and discovered that they actually enjoyed the place. It then took off.

    More than a few parallels with Liverpool - with part of our negative image being down to TV coverage of the riots in 1981. A series of events between then and now (Garden Festival through to the CoC) brought people to the city to see it in a more positive light.

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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    Thanks for your thoughts and it's great to see you had a good time.

    I know a lot has been done on the Baltimore waterfront. I'd be interested to hear any comparisons between the two cities which I have suppose have something in common?
    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    It took a very long time for the Baltimore waterfront to be successful - 15 years I think. The TV images of riots, prior to the redevelopment, left a lasting impression in the mind of the average American. What made a difference was the building of a festival market hall - an event venue. People travelled there for events and discovered that they actually enjoyed the place. It then took off.

    More than a few parallels with Liverpool - with part of our negative image being down to TV coverage of the riots in 1981. A series of events between then and now (Garden Festival through to the CoC) brought people to the city to see it in a more positive light.
    As kevin says, there are more than a few parallels between the cities. Both have been great seaports, grew up rapidly from virtually nothing, large multi-cultural background, people of both cities have a great sense of humor, row houses of Baltimore much like the terraced houses of the 'Pool.

    kevin, I am not sure what you mean by the "festival market hall" -- do you mean the renovation of Lexington Market or perhaps the building of the Convention Center???

    A statue is being dedicated tomorrow at Harbor Place to former Mayor William Donald Schaefer under whose administration the food and retail pavilions were built in the 1980's transforming what had been a bleak and rundown waterfront. The argument might be made that Harbor Place is good for tourists and those able to partake of the goodies there but that more needs to be done for the rundown ghetto areas (vide "The Wire").

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    ... (vide "The Wire").
    So you think the benefit has not been very far spread? I think it was one of the first 'waterfront regenerations' -what do you think could have been done better?

    Sorry to grill you. I hope you don't mind

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post

    kevin, I am not sure what you mean by the "festival market hall" --
    Is this the Faneuil Hall Marketplace in Boston?

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    It's a magnificent memorial dedicaced among other to the heroic engineering staff of the RMS Titanic; Joseph Bell, chief engineer, 24 engineers, 6 electrical engineers, two boilermakers, a plumber and his clerk.
    No engineer survived. They stayed on their post until the end ensuring that the lights of Titanic keep shining until the very last seconds of sinking.
    I admire their bravery.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadine View Post
    It's a magnificent memorial dedicaced among other to the heroic engineering staff of the RMS Titanic; Joseph Bell, chief engineer, 24 engineers, 6 electrical engineers, two boilermakers, a plumber and his clerk.
    No engineer survived. They stayed on their post until the end ensuring that the lights of Titanic keep shining until the very last seconds of sinking.
    I admire their bravery.
    I got a lump in my throat reading your post, Nadine. Very moving. My Dad was a navy man and had first hand experience of being torpedoed and going into the water, and never forgot the experience (he was 20 at the time). Your remarks aobut the engineering staff of the Titanic "insuring that the lights of the Titanic kept shining until the last second" encapsulates their great bravery and serves these men well

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    Quote Originally Posted by Partsky View Post
    I got a lump in my throat reading your post, Nadine. Very moving. My Dad was a navy man and had first hand experience of being torpedoed and going into the water, and never forgot the experience (he was 20 at the time). Your remarks aobut the engineering staff of the Titanic "insuring that the lights of the Titanic kept shining until the last second" encapsulates their great bravery and serves these men well
    My uncle was torpedoed twice. Not once was he sunk. Each time he was in the engine room and each time the torpedo came crashing through and each time never exploded. Lucky man - twice. His brother was not so lucky who was sunk by a U-Boat 500 miles from Cape Race and not seen again.

    Mr Wilcott down the street had the same experience but once. They sailed back to Liverpool with an unexploded torpedo in the side of the ship. They would smack its nose with hammers all the way home.
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    I think the original idea was to dedicate the memorial to the Titanic men, but WW1 came along and it was to all engine room men.
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