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Thread: Stadia

  1. #31
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    Yes, I see but I don't think there are plans to electrify the line to the docks (the Canada Dock branch line). If there were - maybe the dream of an electrified link to Europe...? Liverpool, the most westerly port in EUROPE?
    The recent document issued by Network Rail stated it would be, well it is the only line to the docks so must be.



    From doc:
    Freight

    70. Electrification of this route will offer electric haulage options for freight.
    There will be an alternative route to Liverpool docks for electrically-operated
    freight trains, and better opportunities of electrified access to the proposed
    freight terminal at Parkside near Newton-le-Willows.


    The document was here, but has been pulled:
    http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/ra...rification.pdf


    It is absurd to start the Manchester end first. Completing the Liverpool to St. Helens/Wigan section must be priority as it will service long haul and local services (Merseyrail). This will delay any expansion of Merseyrail by two years, yet give little benefit to Manchester.

    The electrification of Liverpool-Manchester and the Canada Dock Branch Line has many bonuses for Liverpool.:
    • Fast link to Mcr,
    • another Merseyrail line to also take football crowds
    • Reaches Bootle,
    • increased and more flexible freight traffic onto the WCML,
    • a Merseyrail line to St. Helens
    • Maybe another line to Sth Parkway via Allerton.


    That is maybe three new Merseyrail lines, increased freight and fast link to an adjacent city. Not bad if the Canada Dock Line can join the electrification.

    Once a stadium gets the go ahead they get built quite quickly with modern construction methods. When LFC announce a start date will mean the rail link will not be ready in time causing chaos in the city as Liverpool FC want a 73,000 capacity. The Canada Dock Branch Line must be electrified ASAP.

    I see your point on the outer loop. It's a good thing for many reasons and should happen; but does it do the Lord's thing?
    If it runs under the stadium, yes. Fans go directly into the stadium. The cost of merging the two must be less than building two separate structures.

    The outer loop is ideal in many ways but it is a little too far in the future.
    It is there waiting with bridges and a long tunnel with easy meshing into the Northern Line at Kirkdale.

    For me, the Canada dock line is there. We're talking millions or tens of millions to get to it (from the stadia) and to electrify it, not hundreds of millions to rebuild the loop line.
    That is one point for it, is that it has lines on it. Another is that it is to be electrified. However it is impractical. OK, a line can run through the short Canada Dock tunnel and curve south onto the Northern Line. More expense.

    What do we get? A national centre of football excellence based around Stanley Park and a great attraction for the World Cup bid for 2018
    Stanley Park is a poor location and primarily residential And a rapid-transit rail link is not at the stadium, meaning residents will be inconvenienced as 100's of fans walk the 1/2 mile to the station through their homes. The station MUST be at the stadium. Walton Hall Park with re-commissioned Outer Loop is the way.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member petromax's Avatar
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    Whilst there is no must about anything, it's good to see that it is intended to electrify Canada Branch.

    I don't follow you. The line from Huyton to St Helens is not on the newly announced electrified route to MCR Victoria.

    Right now, there is no money for building new stadiums and new lines to get to them at anything up to $200m a kilometre for new lines...

    Ok, to be miserly let's say $20m/km = $300m for the 15km from Kirkdale to Hunt's Cross, it could be twice or three times that, not half that.

    Whereas a new station on the Canada Branch line (Walton or Breck Road); ?6m. Electrification; no additional cost. Olive Mount Chord connection; done. Kirkdale connection; ?6m-?10m? Where do I sign?

    I would walk half a mile to the match. I do that from the pub anyway.

  3. #33
    Senior Member petromax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    ... residents will be inconvenienced as 100's of fans walk the 1/2 mile to the station through their homes....
    ...as they have done for time in memory.

    The residents would also benefit from the community regeneration committed to by the club(s) as a contractural commitment in their planning consents. If a way can be found to make the new stadia affordable and actually get them built, then the regeneration of the area, improvement of housing stock, streets and environment WILL take place.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    ...as they have done for time in memory.
    Two wrong do not make a right.

    The residents would also benefit from the community regeneration committed to by the club(s) as a contractural commitment in their planning consents.
    There has been two large stadia in the locale for over 117 years. They have done nothing for the areas, so why should more and larger stadia do any difference? Answer? They will not.

    If a way can be found to make the new stadia affordable and actually get them built, then the regeneration of the area, improvement of housing stock, streets and environment WILL take place.
    There will be no regeneration in the area with a large stadium with no direct rapid-transit rail station to take 2/3 of the fans within a hour.

    You go for the optimum solution, which is in easy reach.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  5. #35
    Senior Member petromax's Avatar
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    There are legally binding agreements within the Anfield planning consent for regeneration. LFC have a separate group within the club to deliver their regeneration commitments arising out of their consent. This is what delivers regeneration - legal obligation!! (see Skerries Road and Stanley Park)

    Spending close to a billion on an unnecessary stadium and an over-egged rail link is a long way from the optimum.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    There are legally binding agreements within the Anfield planning consent for regeneration.
    If you think that will keep the area in top nick for over a 100 years with a large stadium there you are in cloud cuckoo land It will dwindle away to a slum again. No one wants to live near a large stadium.

    Spending close to a billion on an unnecessary stadium and an over-egged rail link is a long way from the optimum.
    The cost of the stadium may be unnecessary, but the line will promote the districts it runs through. Having stadium on it, it will sing. Billion? You made that up.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  7. #37
    Senior Member petromax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    If you think that will keep the area in top nick for over a 100 years with a large stadium there you are in cloud cuckoo land It will dwindle away to a slum again. No one wants to live near a large stadium.
    There's more to keeping an area going than splashing some cash about and then leaving it for a hundred years.



    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    The cost of the stadium may be unnecessary, but the line will promote the districts it runs through. Having stadium on it, it will sing. Billion? You made that up.
    An unnecessary stadium won't get done and will benefit no one.

    Latest published estimates for the new stadium were in the order of ?400-600m. An 80,000 seater stadium, joint or single club, would be towards the top of that range, very possibly higher. Restoration of outer loop line, conservatively ?300m (see above). Close enough to a billion as makes no difference.

    Extend Goodison and Anfield, new station on Canada Branch line, kick-start Anfield Breckfield and Walton regeneration, create a sports and leisure centre of excellence based around Stanley Park, be a host for the World Cup in 2018 and attract hundreds of thousands of visitors to the city and show it off in a fantastic light - in the order of half the cost and within reach of the clubs ie. achievable.

    The outer loop is for another day. It would be great, but not just now and not via football.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    An unnecessary stadium
    Which unnecessary stadium are you on about?

    The outer loop is mainly intact. It is virtually mothballed with even the bridges still there. It is cheap to recommission. It is the socio/economic benefits the line would bring in a wider sense and it will preclude trams. Put a stadium on Walton Hall Park, EFC, LFC, or both or shared, on the site, and the line comes into its own. A true asset.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  9. #39
    Senior Member petromax's Avatar
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    There are no rails on the outer loop. It is a cycle path!! and by the way, have seen what's left of the head height at the M62 flyover?

    A new stadium is unnecessary when the existing one(s) can be extended.

    I'm sorry, but I'm not getting anything from this... so if you don't mind I'll leave it.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    There are no rails on the outer loop. It is a cycle path!! and by the way, have seen what's left of the head height at the M62 flyover?
    The outer loops trackbed is still there, only fences and rails need be installed. The important and expensive bridges are still there. Head height? Lower the trackbed at that point, not an engineering show-stopper.

    A new stadium is unnecessary when the existing one(s) can be extended.
    Those two crocks cannot be extended economically. GP is one of the most landlocked grounds in the league - why do think EFC are moving? The two of them are in districts that give a poor image to the city. The two of them are surrounded by poor transport infrastructure. They both need large capacity stadia to compete in the current Premier/Euro football setups. They both need high throughput rapid-transit rail stations next to the stadia, not a mile away. All simple really. The city has a rapid-transit rail system and suitable sites, the clubs must be made to use them.

    I'm sorry, but I'm not getting anything from this... so if you don't mind I'll leave it.
    You will get a lot if you understand the points put across.
    Last edited by Waterways; 08-01-2009 at 02:20 PM.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  11. #41
    Senior Member petromax's Avatar
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    I think we are all very capable of understanding what you say despite your internal contradictions and inconsistencies and your highly selective method of argument.

    You offer no grounds for your assumptions on either the rail engineering or the existing stadia and you are incredibly naive in your assertion that the clubs can be 'made' to do anything.

    Maybe just maybe, there are people out there who know more about what they are talking about than you do and perhaps they can see what they are looking at from more than one narrow perspective.

  12. #42
    Smurf Member scouse smurf's Avatar
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    That's not gonna convince him. As much as we love WW he's very stubborn when he's got his point of view and it's best to just let him have it. No offence meant, WW

  13. #43
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    despite your internal contradictions and inconsistencies
    What might these be?

    <snip babble>
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  14. #44
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouse smurf View Post
    That's not gonna convince him. As much as we love WW he's very stubborn when he's got his point of view and it's best to just let him have it. No offence meant, WW
    I go on fact and intelligent assessment.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  15. #45
    Senior Member petromax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouse smurf View Post
    That's not gonna convince him. As much as we love WW he's very stubborn when he's got his point of view and it's best to just let him have it. No offence meant, WW
    Why stint? the man is offensive.

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