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Thread: Stadia

  1. #16
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Ged, here is Kirkdale station. The red line is the Canada Dock Branch Line running "under" the station in a deep cutting at the bottom where it enters a tunnel. Platforms could be built in the cutting with stairs up to the existing ground level station. This may entail cutting into rock, so not cheap.

    The tunnel to Rice Lane is on the same level as the Merseyrail Line and is clearly seen in the rock face. The tunnel is seen from the platforms. It was used until the mid to late 1970s. The line out of the tunnel from the outer loop easily merges into the existing Merseyrail line at this station being on the same level. It runs in the station running at the other side of the existing platform.



    The line ran out of the Kirkdale to Rice Lane tunnel heading south then entered a tunnel into Huskisson Dock freight yard.


    Courtesy of Multimap
    Last edited by Waterways; 07-15-2009 at 05:04 PM.
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  2. #17
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    The outer loop via Kirkdale and the tunnel, could be recommissioned in phases as money is available. The outer loop still has the bridges in place.

    First phase:

    1. The track in place
    2. A station at the stadium
    3. Platforms at Kirkdale
    4. Station at West Derby as it is in place


    The above gives stations at: Kirkdale, the stadium at WHP, west Derby as the station is intact, and onto Hunts X and South Parkway. All the existing Northern Line stations are still available. This shifts fans quickly and the loop is in operation for the community, albeit in a limited form.

    Second phase gives stations at:

    Norris Green, Clubmoor, Knotty Ash & Gateacre. Childwall and maybe Broad Green as well. Then no need for trams.
    Last edited by Waterways; 07-14-2009 at 06:53 PM.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
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    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  3. #18

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    Did,nt know much about the railways in Liverpool but I do now,what a belting discussion by all of you,Thanks.

  4. #19
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Here is the Sainsbury's brochure to link with Everton FC and build a stadium on Walton Hall Park. Everton went with Tesco in Kirkby.


    Walton Hall Park


    The stadium and store

    Sainsbury's - click here to brochure
    All linked from the KEIOC site.

    It is amazing that Sainsbury's never even looked at rapid-transit rail access which did and still can, run through the site. I would have thought the stadium/complex would have been better off the road and at near the Rice Lane flyover part of the park. Bottom left on the top shot.
    Last edited by Waterways; 07-15-2009 at 05:04 PM.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
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    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  5. #20
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    The map below
    • The red is the proposed recommissioned Outer-Loop line - still with trackbed and bridges intact. This brings on-line: Walton Hall Park, Norris Green, Clubmoor, West Derby, Knotty Ash, Broad Green, Childwall, Gateacre, Woolton & Halewood - eventually. The catchment area of the line is substantial.
    • The red star at the top at the end of the red line is Kirkdale station.
    • The red star at the bottom of the red line is Hunts X station.
    • The red/blue line is the Kirkdale-Rice Lane tunnel.
    • The red/blue star at the top is Walton Hall Park where an Everton FC or a shared stadium could be built with a high throughput station. Trains leave the stadium both ways.
    • The green dotted line is the existing Northern line that creates a full city loop with the Outer-Loop - trains can just go around the loop, as they partially do on the Wirral Line. Or just around the loop on matchdays to shift fans.
    • The pink lines are existing Northern Lines to: Southport, Ormskirk and Kirkby.
    • The light blue line is Edge Hill to the west and where it meets the red line is Broad Green. This could be made into a junction, as was planned to be so in the 1970's. That means the north and southern sections of the Outer-Loop can be two separate loops and will run right into Edge Hill junction and onto Lime St, or into Central if the Wapping tunnel is branched into Central. Or down the Waterloo tunnel and onto the Northern
      Line at Waterloo Dock. All in the future, but would make the loop quickly accessible to the city centre.
    • The light blue star at the bottom is Liverpool South Parkway station with connections to London and Manchester and beyond.
    • The rails already bought for collapsed Merseytram scheme are stored in Hull and can be used for the loop offsetting some costs.


    The setup covers much of what trams were to cover and shifts people fast with connections all over Merseyside. If a shared stadium, then Walton Hall Park is the ideal choice as the fans can be shifted in and out very fast and en-mass. It is cheap to implement as well. It is cheap to implement as most is actually in place. This gives a big bang-for-buck.

    Last edited by Waterways; 07-15-2009 at 10:19 PM.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
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    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  6. #21
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    About Lords. Residents are organising against 20-20, as they view it as a new game played at the venue. Lords are talking of increasing the size of the ground and put a rapid-transit rail station under a newer larger stand to get through planning permission.

    Many residents are pointing to the new Olympic stadium, which can hold 80,000. It is round in shape and can hold a cricket field. The stadium has no tenant after 2012. The solution is there, but will they take it up?

    BTW, on one day during the England-Australia test at Lords at the weekend, the bars took ?250,000. Say only 25,000 drank out of the 32,000, that is an average of ?10 per head. No wonder they want to increase the capacity. At a 20-20 match at the Olympic stadium with 60,000 attending and 50,000 drinking that is half a ?million in one day at the bar. They hold two 20-20 matches in one day.

    That is why EFC & LFC need to get fans in earlier and keep them in longer.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
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    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  7. #22
    Senior Member petromax's Avatar
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    Waterways; you put a great argument forward for the outer loop. It has lots of benefits, even beyond football and it has been 'future-proofed' as you say, with all the stuff kept in place, and it has to happen.

    However both stadium proposals are clearly struggling to say the least. It doesn't make sense to build new stadia either separately or together in new locations in this economy (or any other economy for that matter). If nobody can afford it - it's simply not going to happen.

    The clubs can and should stay put, and extend. Then they can share infrastructure, parking and rail connections. The inner loop is harder to use as you say (differences in level etc) but it is much closer to both Goodison and Anfield. Critically, the lines are there and in use! (albeit for freight only at the moment)

    If we still had the rail flyover at Edge Hill, wouldn't we be right into the West Coast Mainline?

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/40936407@N07/3769216278/

  8. #23
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    The clubs can and should stay put, and extend. Then they can share infrastructure, parking and rail connections. The inner loop is harder to use as you say (differences in level etc) but it is much closer to both Goodison and Anfield. Critically, the lines are there and in use! (albeit for freight only at the moment)

    If we still had the rail flyover at Edge Hill, wouldn't we be right into the West Coast Mainline?
    Staying put for both clubs is a no, no. The image of the two locations is clear negative to the city and these are two top clubs that will attract Overseas visitors regularly. To be frank, both clubs are surrounded by districts that resemble dumps. No disrespect to the people living there. The city has to put its best foot forward at all times. One Irish girl last week said to me that "Liverpool was a shoite hole" - she had never been to Liverrpol, but such is the poor image of the city. I have had negative feedback from many people and all because of visits to football grounds. Image is ultra important.

    The Canada Dock Branch Line is to be electrified within 4 years for freight. Merging into Merseyrail is then easy.

    The city f'ked up and should have insisted than any new stadium has adjacent rapid transit rail station. How anyone with half a drain does not insist on this point when the city has a rapid transit rail system is beyond me. No joined up thinking. Then they would have to move, but there many suitable site on Merseyrail lines, so not an issue. But this is Liverpool where the glass is always half empty and common sense need not apply.

    The WCML is accessible down the current tracks. Fast Metro systems prefer to have fast uninterrupted routes, so flyovers are suitable for them. From memory, the flyover took traffic from Wapping Tunnel to the WCML - a flying junction. What fools allowed the rail infrastructure to be dismantled? But this is Liverpool.
    Last edited by Waterways; 07-29-2009 at 07:10 PM.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
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    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  10. #25
    Pablo42 pablo42's Avatar
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    Well said Waterways. The City Fathers have got to show off our best face.

  11. #26
    Senior Member petromax's Avatar
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    Two 'new' stadia, Stanley Park given back to the city, regeneration of the housing in the area, direct link to public transport on the branch line, what they call a 'leisure destination' (like Wembley), part of Liverpool's bid for the World Cup. What's not to like?

    By the way, I think the Canada branch misses the WCML (via Allerton) by a couple of hundred yards at the Olive Mount Chord unless we're back to shunting backwards at Edge Hill?

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    By the way, I think the Canada branch misses the WCML (via Allerton) by a couple of hundred yards at the Olive Mount Chord unless we're back to shunting backwards at Edge Hill?
    The new to be electrified Liverpool-Manchester line and crosses the WCML.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  13. #28
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    "The double-track, 32 mile long route from Liverpool Lime Street station to Manchester Victoria station via Huyton and Newton-le-Willows will be electrified...."

    Although this has to cross the WCML somewhere, is there an electrified junction proposed (presumably at Earlestown) and will trains actually run through it instead of across it?

    Access to the footie would still be better and quicker on the dock branch line connecting via Allerton as the existing mainline to London (or anywhere other than Manchester - can't see many 'home' fans coming from Manchester...!). It would also pick up the airport at South Parkway (and ultimately run on into town for a good night out!)

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    "The double-track, 32 mile long route from Liverpool Lime Street station to Manchester Victoria station via Huyton and Newton-le-Willows will be electrified...."

    Although this has to cross the WCML somewhere, is there an electrified junction proposed (presumably at Earlestown) and will trains actually run through it instead of across it?
    I believe Manchester will use the junction to go north to Glasgow. Th section Manchester Earlestown is to be done first. This does not make sense as the line can be used by Merseyrail and Liverpool Docks.

    Access to the footie would still be better and quicker on the dock branch line connecting via Allerton as the existing mainline to London (or anywhere other than Manchester - can't see many 'home' fans coming from Manchester...!). It would also pick up the airport at South Parkway (and ultimately run on into town for a good night out!)
    The Outer Loop will run directly to South Parkway and London connections, when they lengthen the platform. The southern Manchester line runs via South Parkway, although not electrified. The other way, trains could run through the Kirkdale tunnel to Kirkdale and back to the centre via Sandhills.

    The 1970's plan for the Outer Loop was to make Broad Green a junction. This means trains can drop into Edge Hill, for Manchester and London connections, and the centre at Lime St. Or right into the centre using either of the disused tunnels. This junction also means stations on the Loop get to the centre quicker. All in the far future.

    The Canada Dock Branch (Bootle Line) can get them to Edge Hill, which is not big enough for large volumes. Trains from Southport could go via Anfield to Lime St or west at Edge Hill To St Helens.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
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    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  15. #30
    Senior Member petromax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    I believe Manchester will use the junction to go north to Glasgow. Th section Manchester Earlestown is to be done first. This does not make sense as the line can be used by Merseyrail and Liverpool Docks.
    Yes, I see but I don't think there are plans to electrify the line to the docks (the Canada Dock branch line). If there were - maybe the dream of an electrified link to Europe...? Liverpool, the most westerly port in EUROPE?



    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    ...The 1970's plan...All in the far future....
    I see your point on the outer loop. It's a good thing for many reasons and should happen; but does it do the Lord's thing? Only if the stadia are moved on top of it and I just don't think this needs to happen or in fact can happen (unless there's several hundred million to spare for a new stadium) The outer loop is ideal in many ways but it is a little too far in the future.

    For me, the Canada dock line is there. We're talking millions or tens of millions to get to it (from the stadia) and to electrify it, not hundreds of millions to rebuild the loop line.

    What do we get? A national centre of football excellence based around Stanley Park and a great attraction for the World Cup bid for 2018

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