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Thread: Stadia

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    Default Stadia & Rapid Tansit Rail

    LFC have been granted planning permission for their stadium in Stanley Park. They desperately need a high throughput Merseyrail station. Hence the adjacent, well not that near, Canada Dock Branch Line being considered for Merseyrail. EFC at Kirkby need the Kirkby station, which is not on the doorstep, enlarging to give a high throughput.

    There is no joined up thinking. It would be best to have a station under the two stadia to allow fans to access the stands directly. This is what happens at the Amsterdam Arena, home of Ajax.

    But closer to home, and opposite me, Lords Cricket ground are proposing the same. The ground consists of the main cricket ground and right next to it is the Nursery end, which was used for practising. Named so because it was a nursery at one time. Tunnels using the cut and cover method were run under the Nursery end for access to Marylebone station in the 1890s. One one tunnel serves Marylebone station while the other two were for storingh trains. and are now disused. They propose using the through tunnel as a station for direct access to the stands and the other two for a gym, sports injuries treatment, or whatever.
    Times Article


    ADVERTISING




    Below the three tunnels under the Nursery end, being built. Lords only own the top 18" of land and can't put large buildings up. Now they can as they have bought two of the tunnels.


    Integrated stations is what LFC and EFC should be made to incorporate into their stadia. It all makes so much sense. A high throughput rapid transit rail link must be a precursor for a new stadium. No link. No Stadium.
    Last edited by Waterways; 07-14-2009 at 12:43 PM.
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    How about the Cherry Lane line. Would do away with the away fans being escorted all the way down Kirkdale road and Scotland Road to Limey. You could even put a branch line in from what is already and extensively in place.
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    How about the Cherry Lane line. Would do away with the away fans being escorted all the way down Kirkdale road and Scotland Road to Limey. You could even put a branch line in from what is already and extensively in place.
    Ged, that is the Canada Dock Branch Line which is used for freight and the only line left into the docks. There is talk is introducing another, where from I don't know. Look at this: Extending Merseyrail

    A branch off the Canada Dock Line using heavy-rail Merseyrail trains would be a long sweeping curve. Light-rail trains, like London's Docklands, can negotiate tight curves making extension to Merseyrail more suitable.



    Light-rail trains can be strung together to long lengths and turn tight curves. Merseyrail rolling stock is due for replacement in around 4 years. Light or medium rail trains should be bought replacing the legacy and expensive to buy and run existing heavy-rail trains.

    It is possible to tunnel off Canada Dock Branch and up Utting Avenue using cut and cover tunnelling. This would be ideal and it maybe it could extend further and right into the unserved Scotland Rd districts and onto the Northern Line at a convenient point. There is enough open land between Stanley Park and the Loop, which would mean cheap cut and cover tunnelling at lot of the way and down the Kingsway approach Rd to the Northern Line.

    Kirkby is easier to solve. Redirect the line to the stadium or re-locate the stadium to the line Best to relocate the line and get it nearer the centre of Kirkby. The line also goes to Wigan and onto Manchester.

    The great thing about Kirkby is that specials can be run from Manchester direct to the stadium.

    I prefer Walton Hall Park or Long Lane Industrial Estate for EFC. There is a disused tunnel from Kirkdale to the Rice Lane flyover. The tunnel is still run under the flyover junction as the lines were only lifted in 1975. Skirting the park the track beds of the old curves are still there - look at Google they are clear. This connects onto the outer loop line trackbed that goes to West Derby/Broad Green/Childwall/Gatacre/Hunts Cross/South Parkway. Merseyrail can then go back to the centre via Kirkdale and the other way onto South Parkway for the London line and the Manchester line. A station may be built at Rice Lane or anywhere in one of the tunnel cuttings.

    Th red is the disused tunnel from Kirkdale station (bottom left) to the Rice Lane Flyover. An Everton stadium can be just over the junction in Walton Hall Park. The white dotted lines are the old trackbeds and lead off to bottom right is the outer loop line that goes to West Derby and then onto South Parkway. It can form a complete loop via the city centre.

    The Outer Loop can branch onto the Kirkby line and an EFC stadium built at Long Lane Industrial estate as the council suggested. Two birds killed with one stone.


    Courtesy of Multimap

    The disused tunnel:
    http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...n_on_the_hill/


    The Outer Loop Line's Bridges are still in Place

    There is no joined up thinking. All is there waiting for someone to think it all together. Merseyside has a high throughput rapid transit rail system,. No stadium should be be given planning permission unless they build as a part of the stadium, or just nearby, a Merseyrail station. It is madness not too!!!!!
    Last edited by Waterways; 09-07-2009 at 11:22 AM.
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    Are you sure there is a disused tunnel from Kirkdale to Rice Lane flyover, what would it have previously served? The exisiting tunnel/line from Kirkdale to the next station at Walton/Rice lane (depending on whether your destination is Kirkby or Ormskirk seems to run close enough to Walton Hall Park anyway or as I say, a branch off the Cherry Lane/Canada dock branch line would suffice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    Are you sure there is a disused tunnel from Kirkdale to Rice Lane flyover, what would it have previously served? The exisiting tunnel/line from Kirkdale to the next station at Walton/Rice lane (depending on whether your destination is Kirkby or Ormskirk seems to run close enough to Walton Hall Park anyway or as I say, a branch off the Cherry Lane/Canada dock branch line would suffice.
    Ged there is a tunnel. I have added a map below. The subbrit site I linked to also shows the tunnel. Reusing this tunnel would also get the outer loop up and running. A station can be under the stadium and keep fans away from residents (I live next to a major sports venue and know what it is like. The residents are forming an action committee to prevent further expansion). This rail line is one way to Liverpool centre the other to South Parkway and major connections to London/Mcr, etc. The trackbeds are still there. A win, win as the major Queens Drive is there and easy roads out to the M57/M62.

    A line needs to be a through line not a branch line terminus, as it can be used on non-matchdays by the community and Norris Green, West Derby, Gatacre, etc are on Merseyrail too.

    Any "nearby" station is small and will not have the throughput to cope with a large stadium. With a station in the stadium a park and ride can be at many Merseyrail stations. When thinking of Merseyrail, think of London's Tube. I find people in Liverpool do not value this superb rapid transit system they have, and think of roads and buses first.
    Last edited by Waterways; 07-10-2009 at 02:02 PM.
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    If Tesco go along with a move to Walton Hall Park, they will be sandwiched between an ASDA and a Sainsburys.
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    That tunnel already seems to continue beyond the rice land flyover/roundabout around the perimeter curve of the park.

    However....

    They'll never build a stadium in a certain location just because a disused railway line already exists nearby and the fact Tesco will have competition but in Kirkby, their be all and end all choice, they won't and want a presence there seems to be the deciding factor since they're putting the money into it. In fact the cpo buying up has already started, even ahead of the ruling for the stadium getting the go ahead so they must be confident of the outcome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    That tunnel already seems to continue beyond the rice land flyover/roundabout around the perimeter curve of the park.

    However....

    They'll never build a stadium in a certain location just because a disused railway line already exists nearby and the fact Tesco will have competition but in Kirkby, their be all and end all choice, they won't and want a presence there seems to be the deciding factor since they're putting the money into it. In fact the cpo buying up has already started, even ahead of the ruling for the stadium getting the go ahead so they must be confident of the outcome.
    Ged, in dumb Liverpool, where the glass is always half empty, not half full, they may not build a stadium near a rapid transit rail line. How did LFCs Stanley Park stadium get the go ahead without a rapid transit rail link? It wouldn't happen in London or any other city with a rapid transit rail system, as that would be a precursor - no link, no stadium. My first post is about Lords proposing a station under their ground. Merseyside has a very good system that can easily be much, much better, but ignored by the city who wanted silly trams.

    I know about the cpo's. And I know what Tesco want. However, this scheme kills many birds with one stone. Walton Hall Park has been suggested in the past by many, but having Merseyrail run in and a station under the stadium, this makes matters different.

    • It gets the outer loop in operation and many districts onto Merseyrail.
    • A large stadium is served by rapid transit rail reducing the nuisance value to residents.
    • Fans have easy rail access to the city centre
    • Fans have easy connections all of Merseyside.
    • Fans have easy connections to beyond Merseyside at South Parkway.
    • The outer loop shift fans to the south and north of the city in both directions from the stadium.
    • The stadium is still in Walton where Everton FC still live.
    • The park is ideal for safety purposes.
    • Easy road access with trunk roads nearby.
    • The location has low nuisance value.
    • EFC are still inside Liverpool city


    The club and community benefit. Maybe the council could make the stadium a small self contained shopping complex and with a bit of CPO Sainsburys can merge into the shopping complex - only a few houses separate Sainsburys from the park - the stadium could be on the park near to Sainburys. Tesco will be happy with a direct rail station, as will Sainsburys and any other retailer who sets up.

    The tunnel may continue across the roundabout, it did until 1975. It may have been blocked at one point, but an easy job to re-instate. All the trackbed is there and even a complete station at West Derby. The council foolishly allowed some buildings to be built on parts of the old Walton-on-hiill station between the roundabout and the park. A few CPO's may be required. A line can come from the tunnel and directly into the park and stadium. A small bit of tunnelling may preclude CPO's
    Last edited by Waterways; 07-11-2009 at 08:35 AM.
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    Agreed but Tesco are the men with the money and they don't care if the fastest trains in the west pass Wally hall park or if there's stations there with marble staircases, it ain't gonna happen cos they want Kirkby where there's no competition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    Agreed but Tesco are the men with the money and they don't care if the fastest trains in the west pass Wally hall park or if there's stations there with marble staircases, it ain't gonna happen cos they want Kirkby where there's no competition.
    The city, or the country, should have a strict policy that stadia have integrated rapid transit rail links where they exist. If it is there use it as all benefit. Common sense. Keep nuisance value of masses of people at bay by taking them directly into the stadium. If a stadium is built in Walton Hall Park and a station is under it, it can have 6 platforms. To shift 30,000 per hour, that takes trains which hold say 900 people each. That is 34 trains in a hour, which is one leaving every 1.76 minutes. Totally possible using modern signalling systems, as the Jubilee line in London has trains 30 seconds apart. Trains can leave in less than 1.76 minutes using 6 platforms. Also trains would be running both ways at Walton Hall Park, so you probably could shift far more than 30,000 an hour.

    Then if the stadium has comprehensive facilities inside, fans will stay behind after games and take later trains, then in a 60,000 crowd, 40,000 could be shifted by rapid transit rail. That is, these people are not on the streets around or on roads in cars or taking up parking. Traffic jams are minimal.

    If the Kirkdale to Rice Lane tunnel and Outer Loop is re-commissioned, then a full loop is formed via the centre, South Parkway and Kirkdale. The trains would just run around the loop both ways until the fans are dispersed. Then no stabling of trains at a terminus or shuffling a large amount of trains or having to reverse and change tracks or whatever to get back to the stadium.

    If a policy of integrating stadia and rail is implemented, then Tesco would have to look at even Kirkby differently. Currently the inadequate Merseyrail station at Kirkby, not at the stadium, is not even considered seriously by Tesco/EFC. They don't care if they clog up the place leaving frustrated people all over, even EFCs own fans. They view the essential rapid transit as someone else's problem. The inquiry should reject the EFC stadium on lack of rapid transit rail integration and no plans to give adequate throughput to shift the majority of fans away from the town - most fan will not live in Kirkby. This highlights the lack of thought that has gone into Merseyrail/EFC stadium at Kirkby:
    Report on Kirkby re: rail access

    The proposed relocation of Everton Football Club to a new ground in Kirkby is certain to place an intolerable pressure on both rail services and infrastructure.

    Having an integrated stadium/store/station is a win, win. as the punters go to the store and stadium directly. Why would Tesco complain as they would get customers from far and wide right into their store by fast metro rail? But that is not the point. EFC and LFC should be made to integrated rapid transit and the stadium. They should not be given a choice. No joined up thinking as usual.

    Lords know that to expand the cricket ground (20-20 looks like taking off big time and it only holds 32,000) they know they will not get planning permission to expand unless rapid transit rail is near. OK there is a Tube station not far away but its throughput is poor because of the concourse is poor and cannot cope with high people volumes, only two platforms and locals sometimes cannot use it as the escalators are switched to run only one way to shift the cricket fans, which p1sses the locals off. However having a station under the stadium gets the locals on their side, the planners on their side and Westminster council on their side. Most of the fans are not around the streets and all inside the stadium, then all win.

    I would rather have Walton Hall with rapid transit rail, than the Loop in Scotland Road any day. Grants would be available to get the rail system up and running as it would greatly benefit the community at large. The Outer Loop via West Derby was supposed to be on Merseyrail as it was on the original plans but dropped in the 1970/80s. Thatcher clearly finally killed any hope of money available for it to be re-commissioned.

    Getting the tunnel that is under the Rice lane flyover roundabout into Walton Hall Park is not a big undertaking, with maybe a new very short section of tunnel cut that can be cut by hand not using a boring machine. Liverpool sandstone rock is soft.
    Last edited by Waterways; 07-12-2009 at 01:17 PM.
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    The rumour is that Lords want 50-60,000 at the stadium to cope for 20-20. The station under the ground is regarded as key to its success. Local residents are forming to counter expansion as they view 20-20 as a new game - it has new rules to a 5 day test. The difference is between 5-a-side football and full 11 a side. Both are football and that is about the only similarity.

    Many are wanting 20-20 banned from the venue, and all games under floodlights too. And Lords build a new dedicated large 20-20 stadium elsewhere.

    If Lords get the expansion they want, the integrated rapid transit rail station below the stadium is the key.
    Last edited by Waterways; 07-12-2009 at 01:26 PM.
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    Hi Waterways

    That actually makes sense. Pity we couldn't talk the two factions into actually sharing a stadium.

    Football apart, it would improve transport across the area. The current system is OK if you want to go to the city centre. Getting from the north to the south, without a car, is currently difficult.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redjed1 View Post
    Hi Waterways

    That actually makes sense. Pity we couldn't talk the two factions into actually sharing a stadium.

    Football apart, it would improve transport across the area. The current system is OK if you want to go to the city centre. Getting from the north to the south, without a car, is currently difficult.
    Yes integrating a high throughput rapid transit rail station with stadium is ultra common sense. The planners and council do not value the rail system we have.

    Bringing in the outer loop makes one large circle of the city. This gives great route flexibility and brings onto Merseyrail a whole raft of districts.

    Getting from north to south on Merseyrail? The northern Line runs from Southport through the north, the city centre and into the south to Hunts X.

    What is not served is the east of the city and the central inner-city districts. All these can be brought onto Merseyrail, making it the first choice of transport for the people, as the Paris Metro and London Tube are, not lumbering, dirty slow buses. see:
    Extending Meseyrail
    This is to be updated.

    Getting EFC and LFC to share is ideal. Failing that, both should be made to have a rapid transit link as a part of the stadium structure. Keeping fans, and their cars, out of the surrounding districts should be a part of the thinking behind these proposals. The clubs have everything to gain in that fans directly enter the stadium. Have the facilities and you keep them longer inside and they spend money. The planners have said to LFC, that if they want to get over the 60,000 of the current stadium proposal, of which they have planning permission, they need a rapid transit rail station nearby on the Canada Dock Branch Line. LFC have said they want to get to over 70,000 by expanding the stadium. This was foolish by the city as it should have been a part of the planning no matter what the capacity is - times move on so they should do it properly. It makes sense for LFC to have rail station in the stadium and change the plans.

    There was mutterings of closing down Walton Hospital. Next to the hospital is a Merseyrail line. A stadium can be built over the line and 6 platforms built. If the NHS leave the site it is ideal for a stadium, as long as the stadium is built over the line. There is also suitable site around Aintree to put a stadium directly over a Merseyrail line.
    Last edited by Waterways; 07-12-2009 at 05:38 PM.
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    John.

    Although Walton Hall Park is a good choice and would the council dare knock back the use of a park after giving LFC part of Stanley Park, somebody on another forum has said that the Canada dock branch line couldn't be used as it doesn't merge easily with Merseyrail at Kirkdale as it runs under the station and the line is used for freight with diesel trains and will be busier when the container terminal is expanded.

    The biggest stumbling block of all of course is the money men building the stadium are Tesco and the stadium will go where they want or nowhere.
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    Ged, Tesco apart for now.

    Firstly, Walton Hall Park is run down and not as used as much as it should. It is a decent choice without the Merseyrail links. With them it just sings!!!! It is a win, win all around.

    Liverpool has two north end of the city rail loops:

    1. The inner, the Canada Dock Branch,
    2. The outer loop from Hunts X to Aintree or using the curves, Hunts X to the centre via Kirkdale. This can form a complete Merseyrail circle.


    For passenger use the outer loop is by far the best if a stadium is involved as one way there is South Parkway interchange and the city centre the other. This line is easy to recommission. The only problem, but small is, redirecting the tunnel at the Rice Lane flyover a few yards into the park. Whoever at the council allowed building onto the disused trackbed curves should be shot. Was it Henshaw? Rail trackbed and tunnels should be left in place "in case", and this is a clear case of "in case". The curves at Halewood have not been built on, neither has the outer loop cvomplet with bridges intact. Just the curves at Walton are built on. The city is projected to be a super-city, so all this disused rail infrastructure is essential for future growth.

    Even if no stadium is proposed for Walton Hall Park, a new curve can be built adjacent to the old curve and some short section of tunnelling into the tunnel at Rice lane will bring the outer loop onto Merseyrail.

    The Canada Dock Branch only has the advantage of having lines on it. It will be difficult to branch the Canada Dock Branch line onto the Northern Line at Kirkdale as you have mentioned because the two lines are at different levels. The line does not run through station platforms at Kirkdale. It can be merged by running the line after it emerges from under Kirkdale and Bankhall stations on the way to adjacent Canada Dock, and swinging south in a tight curve and merging into the Northern Line south of Kirkdale station. Light-rail trains would need to be used to negotiate the curve.

    At the other end of the Canada Dock Branch Line is Edge Hill junction with no Merseyrail electric connections. So, this line will run into Mainline Lime Street only. I can't see them electrifying this line and only diesel trains used, and maybe only on matchdays with only one three stations used: Anfield, Edge Hill and Lime Street. Then how many would this station at Cherry Lane? It will only take you to Edge Hill or Lime Street and give city-wide coverage.

    It is possible to have an interchange station at Kirkdale in the deep cutting, and steps to the higher level Merseyrail platforms. The Kirkdale platforms would make the line feasible for everyday use, so some hope. It would be run by slow Northern Rail diesels. It is a point to point line, unless the line is merged into the Northern Line at Kirkdale or the tunnel branch from Central station is bored and merged into the Wapping tunnel, which is unlikely for a mainly 30 day a year football line.

    It is easy to see that the outer loop is the by far the better option:

    • It merges into Merseyrail easily and forms a complete loop.
    • On matchdays trains just need to stay on the loop and run in and out of the stadium station. This make matters very easy for Merseyrail operation in getting the trains in and out of the stadium and shifts people fast.
    • Also two ways into the city centre and Wirral connections
    • Two ways to South Parkway for away fans.
    • Easy change at Sandhills to Southport and Ormskirk
    • Easy changes at Kirkdale for Kirkby (and Skem when that comes on-line)
    • Easy change to the airport when that comes on line
    • It brings onto line many districts that really need a rapid transit rail connection.
    • It eliminates the need for slow lumbering trams.


    Remember, the outer loop was a part of the original 1970's plan, maybe why it is kept intact inc' bridges. The curves to Rice Lane were not, neither was the Kirkdale tunnel either. Now it looks like a great enhancement to the city's transport and to a footy club as well.

    Below: Canada Dock Branch Line in Blue. Northern Line in black, Kirkdale in the North, Lime Street in the South. A point to point line at the mo'. The tunnel can be seen and WHP is at the top where it says Walton.


    LFC and EFC could both have a stadium at Walton Hall Park and the station serve both. WHP is not far from both clubs. The park is by far the better solution to Stanley Park being on the other side of Queens Drive.
    Last edited by Waterways; 07-15-2009 at 12:31 AM.
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    how it once was?


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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Ged, here is Kirkdale station. The red line is the Canada Dock Branch Line running "under" the station in a deep cutting at the bottom where it enters a tunnel. Platforms could be built in the cutting with stairs up to the existing ground level station. This may entail cutting into rock, so not cheap.

    The tunnel to Rice Lane is on the same level as the Merseyrail Line and is clearly seen in the rock face. The tunnel is seen from the platforms. It was used until the mid to late 1970s. The line out of the tunnel from the outer loop easily merges into the existing Merseyrail line at this station being on the same level. It runs in the station running at the other side of the existing platform.

    The line ran out of the Kirkdale to Rice Lane tunnel heading south then entered a tunnel into Huskisson Dock freight yard.


    Courtesy of Multimap
    Last edited by Waterways; 07-15-2009 at 04:04 PM.
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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    The outer loop via Kirkdale and the tunnel, could be recommissioned in phases as money is available. The outer loop still has the bridges in place.

    First phase:

    1. The track in place
    2. A station at the stadium
    3. Platforms at Kirkdale
    4. Station at West Derby as it is in place


    The above gives stations at: Kirkdale, the stadium at WHP, west Derby as the station is intact, and onto Hunts X and South Parkway. All the existing Northern Line stations are still available. This shifts fans quickly and the loop is in operation for the community, albeit in a limited form.

    Second phase gives stations at:

    Norris Green, Clubmoor, Knotty Ash & Gateacre. Childwall and maybe Broad Green as well. Then no need for trams.
    Last edited by Waterways; 07-14-2009 at 05:53 PM.
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    Newbie loudon's Avatar
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    Did,nt know much about the railways in Liverpool but I do now,what a belting discussion by all of you,Thanks.

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Here is the Sainsbury's brochure to link with Everton FC and build a stadium on Walton Hall Park. Everton went with Tesco in Kirkby.


    Walton Hall Park


    The stadium and store

    Sainsbury's - click here to brochure
    All linked from the KEIOC site.

    It is amazing that Sainsbury's never even looked at rapid-transit rail access which did and still can, run through the site. I would have thought the stadium/complex would have been better off the road and at near the Rice Lane flyover part of the park. Bottom left on the top shot.
    Last edited by Waterways; 07-15-2009 at 04:04 PM.
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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    The map below
    • The red is the proposed recommissioned Outer-Loop line - still with trackbed and bridges intact. This brings on-line: Walton Hall Park, Norris Green, Clubmoor, West Derby, Knotty Ash, Broad Green, Childwall, Gateacre, Woolton & Halewood - eventually. The catchment area of the line is substantial.
    • The red star at the top at the end of the red line is Kirkdale station.
    • The red star at the bottom of the red line is Hunts X station.
    • The red/blue line is the Kirkdale-Rice Lane tunnel.
    • The red/blue star at the top is Walton Hall Park where an Everton FC or a shared stadium could be built with a high throughput station. Trains leave the stadium both ways.
    • The green dotted line is the existing Northern line that creates a full city loop with the Outer-Loop - trains can just go around the loop, as they partially do on the Wirral Line. Or just around the loop on matchdays to shift fans.
    • The pink lines are existing Northern Lines to: Southport, Ormskirk and Kirkby.
    • The light blue line is Edge Hill to the west and where it meets the red line is Broad Green. This could be made into a junction, as was planned to be so in the 1970's. That means the north and southern sections of the Outer-Loop can be two separate loops and will run right into Edge Hill junction and onto Lime St, or into Central if the Wapping tunnel is branched into Central. Or down the Waterloo tunnel and onto the Northern
      Line at Waterloo Dock. All in the future, but would make the loop quickly accessible to the city centre.
    • The light blue star at the bottom is Liverpool South Parkway station with connections to London and Manchester and beyond.
    • The rails already bought for collapsed Merseytram scheme are stored in Hull and can be used for the loop offsetting some costs.


    The setup covers much of what trams were to cover and shifts people fast with connections all over Merseyside. If a shared stadium, then Walton Hall Park is the ideal choice as the fans can be shifted in and out very fast and en-mass. It is cheap to implement as well. It is cheap to implement as most is actually in place. This gives a big bang-for-buck.

    Last edited by Waterways; 07-15-2009 at 09:19 PM.
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    About Lords. Residents are organising against 20-20, as they view it as a new game played at the venue. Lords are talking of increasing the size of the ground and put a rapid-transit rail station under a newer larger stand to get through planning permission.

    Many residents are pointing to the new Olympic stadium, which can hold 80,000. It is round in shape and can hold a cricket field. The stadium has no tenant after 2012. The solution is there, but will they take it up?

    BTW, on one day during the England-Australia test at Lords at the weekend, the bars took ?250,000. Say only 25,000 drank out of the 32,000, that is an average of ?10 per head. No wonder they want to increase the capacity. At a 20-20 match at the Olympic stadium with 60,000 attending and 50,000 drinking that is half a ?million in one day at the bar. They hold two 20-20 matches in one day.

    That is why EFC & LFC need to get fans in earlier and keep them in longer.
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    Waterways; you put a great argument forward for the outer loop. It has lots of benefits, even beyond football and it has been 'future-proofed' as you say, with all the stuff kept in place, and it has to happen.

    However both stadium proposals are clearly struggling to say the least. It doesn't make sense to build new stadia either separately or together in new locations in this economy (or any other economy for that matter). If nobody can afford it - it's simply not going to happen.

    The clubs can and should stay put, and extend. Then they can share infrastructure, parking and rail connections. The inner loop is harder to use as you say (differences in level etc) but it is much closer to both Goodison and Anfield. Critically, the lines are there and in use! (albeit for freight only at the moment)

    If we still had the rail flyover at Edge Hill, wouldn't we be right into the West Coast Mainline?

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/40936407@N07/3769216278/

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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    The clubs can and should stay put, and extend. Then they can share infrastructure, parking and rail connections. The inner loop is harder to use as you say (differences in level etc) but it is much closer to both Goodison and Anfield. Critically, the lines are there and in use! (albeit for freight only at the moment)

    If we still had the rail flyover at Edge Hill, wouldn't we be right into the West Coast Mainline?
    Staying put for both clubs is a no, no. The image of the two locations is clear negative to the city and these are two top clubs that will attract Overseas visitors regularly. To be frank, both clubs are surrounded by districts that resemble dumps. No disrespect to the people living there. The city has to put its best foot forward at all times. One Irish girl last week said to me that "Liverpool was a shoite hole" - she had never been to Liverrpol, but such is the poor image of the city. I have had negative feedback from many people and all because of visits to football grounds. Image is ultra important.

    The Canada Dock Branch Line is to be electrified within 4 years for freight. Merging into Merseyrail is then easy.

    The city f'ked up and should have insisted than any new stadium has adjacent rapid transit rail station. How anyone with half a drain does not insist on this point when the city has a rapid transit rail system is beyond me. No joined up thinking. Then they would have to move, but there many suitable site on Merseyrail lines, so not an issue. But this is Liverpool where the glass is always half empty and common sense need not apply.

    The WCML is accessible down the current tracks. Fast Metro systems prefer to have fast uninterrupted routes, so flyovers are suitable for them. From memory, the flyover took traffic from Wapping Tunnel to the WCML - a flying junction. What fools allowed the rail infrastructure to be dismantled? But this is Liverpool.
    Last edited by Waterways; 07-29-2009 at 06:10 PM.
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    Well said Waterways. The City Fathers have got to show off our best face.

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    Two 'new' stadia, Stanley Park given back to the city, regeneration of the housing in the area, direct link to public transport on the branch line, what they call a 'leisure destination' (like Wembley), part of Liverpool's bid for the World Cup. What's not to like?

    By the way, I think the Canada branch misses the WCML (via Allerton) by a couple of hundred yards at the Olive Mount Chord unless we're back to shunting backwards at Edge Hill?

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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    By the way, I think the Canada branch misses the WCML (via Allerton) by a couple of hundred yards at the Olive Mount Chord unless we're back to shunting backwards at Edge Hill?
    The new to be electrified Liverpool-Manchester line and crosses the WCML.
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    "The double-track, 32 mile long route from Liverpool Lime Street station to Manchester Victoria station via Huyton and Newton-le-Willows will be electrified...."

    Although this has to cross the WCML somewhere, is there an electrified junction proposed (presumably at Earlestown) and will trains actually run through it instead of across it?

    Access to the footie would still be better and quicker on the dock branch line connecting via Allerton as the existing mainline to London (or anywhere other than Manchester - can't see many 'home' fans coming from Manchester...!). It would also pick up the airport at South Parkway (and ultimately run on into town for a good night out!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    "The double-track, 32 mile long route from Liverpool Lime Street station to Manchester Victoria station via Huyton and Newton-le-Willows will be electrified...."

    Although this has to cross the WCML somewhere, is there an electrified junction proposed (presumably at Earlestown) and will trains actually run through it instead of across it?
    I believe Manchester will use the junction to go north to Glasgow. Th section Manchester Earlestown is to be done first. This does not make sense as the line can be used by Merseyrail and Liverpool Docks.

    Access to the footie would still be better and quicker on the dock branch line connecting via Allerton as the existing mainline to London (or anywhere other than Manchester - can't see many 'home' fans coming from Manchester...!). It would also pick up the airport at South Parkway (and ultimately run on into town for a good night out!)
    The Outer Loop will run directly to South Parkway and London connections, when they lengthen the platform. The southern Manchester line runs via South Parkway, although not electrified. The other way, trains could run through the Kirkdale tunnel to Kirkdale and back to the centre via Sandhills.

    The 1970's plan for the Outer Loop was to make Broad Green a junction. This means trains can drop into Edge Hill, for Manchester and London connections, and the centre at Lime St. Or right into the centre using either of the disused tunnels. This junction also means stations on the Loop get to the centre quicker. All in the far future.

    The Canada Dock Branch (Bootle Line) can get them to Edge Hill, which is not big enough for large volumes. Trains from Southport could go via Anfield to Lime St or west at Edge Hill To St Helens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    I believe Manchester will use the junction to go north to Glasgow. Th section Manchester Earlestown is to be done first. This does not make sense as the line can be used by Merseyrail and Liverpool Docks.
    Yes, I see but I don't think there are plans to electrify the line to the docks (the Canada Dock branch line). If there were - maybe the dream of an electrified link to Europe...? Liverpool, the most westerly port in EUROPE?



    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    ...The 1970's plan...All in the far future....
    I see your point on the outer loop. It's a good thing for many reasons and should happen; but does it do the Lord's thing? Only if the stadia are moved on top of it and I just don't think this needs to happen or in fact can happen (unless there's several hundred million to spare for a new stadium) The outer loop is ideal in many ways but it is a little too far in the future.

    For me, the Canada dock line is there. We're talking millions or tens of millions to get to it (from the stadia) and to electrify it, not hundreds of millions to rebuild the loop line.

    What do we get? A national centre of football excellence based around Stanley Park and a great attraction for the World Cup bid for 2018

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