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    scouseyuppie scouseyuppie's Avatar
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    Default Liverpool Exchange/

    Just thought I would add some ideas ive been working on (bad cold, so been stuck in...; ))

    The design would see the re-creation of Liverpool Exchange as a new hub and alternative to Lime St. With all the talk of creating new high speed lines across the UK, the design responds to the need for a new district and expansion of the city centre, particularily the commercial district - to the north ideally.

    Utilising a cleared series of spaces from the Former Exchange station site, across Leeds st and Atlantic Boulevard/Costco, the Line would then regenerate the disused waterloo tunnel before meeting existing main lines at edge hill.

    The redevelopment of the Costco site could also open up possible high rise/density developments both commercial and residential/mixed use. This station would also feature direct access to Moorfields, perhaps even the complete removal of the station entrances to a new space within Liverpool Exchange.

    Just some thoughts. The area has been left barron and redundant since its former use as a transport hub and destination, perhaps to reconnect this area is to return it to its previous function? at least as a starting point?






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    Love the images SY, much appreciated.

    Hope u dont mind if I move these to an appropriate section?

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Nice attempt. But a non-starter for many reasons.

    Ironically, the Beeching axe plans of the early 1960s was a good thing for Liverpool if the 1970s plans were implemented fully instead of being abandoned (some had started like the Wapping Tunnel branches):
    • Reuse of the Wapping tunnel connecting Central to Edge Hill,
    • A branch of the north Liverpool Loop Line (Gateacre, West Derby, etc) into the Liverpool-Manchester line at Broad Green
    • Electrification to St Helens, Skem on line, etc, etc.

    This never occurred because of cut-backs. Nevertheless, even the cut-down version we ended up with, the Merseyrail metro created was a superb system with scope to re-use the abandoned lines, tunnels and stations at a later date.
    • Merseyside was to have only one main line station, Lime St, with Birkenhead Woodside, Liverpool Exchange, Liverpool Central High level and Liverpool Riverside (although a dedicated liner terminal), being demolished. For all in Merseyside to access Lime St main line,
    • A new integrated metro system was to be created merging separate rail lines into one system - Merseyrail. This would entail some tunneling under Liverpool city centre. To link them together.


    The metro would give great benefits all around, not just main line station access. London Underground was created in the 1930s, doing the same, Liverpool's metro/underground was 40 years later.

    The plan was superb and largely worked. Lime St is easily accessed from most of Wirral than what Woodside was. Merseyrail metro brings all into the centre.

    Now if Lime St can't handle future expansion, there are a few ways to improve that:
    1. Take the Merseyrail City Line into Central underground station via the Wapping tunnel (the 1970s plan that was started). Will require much needed electrification to St Helens. This will release a few needed platforms at Lime St for long haul only and local Merseyrail metro being separate, as most metro systems do in large cities.
    2. If the platforms at Lime St require lengthening, that can be done by cutting out more rock at the back of the station.
    3. Lime St has the luxury to park long haul trains at Edge Hill over a mile up the Lime St cutting and trains come into the station when only dropping off or loading passengers.


    Implementing the above would be far cheaper than re-building Exchange, which is splitting the main line access into two separate points. So much flexibility is created using the Wapping tunnel to link the centre underground tunnels to Edge Hill junction. The City Line would be on-line onto the electric Merseyrail. Trains could go from St Helens to West Kirby without any problem if need be. Using overhead wires, and dual-pickup trains, trains can go from Central and along the London main line (WCML Spur), via Edge Hill, Allerton station, etc, and stations re-used for Mesreyrail at Smithdown Rd, etc - all on Merseyrail electric and direct city centre, shopping and business district access.

    The same with the Canada Dock Branch line (LFCs new stadium) using overhead wires and dual power pickup trains. It can enter Central station and beyond (Wirral, back to Kirkdale, etc), increasing the service of Merseyrail, creating economic growth as speculators build around the stations.

    So instead of reusing Exchange:
    1. Branch the Wapping Tunnel into the Northern Line at Central - would be the oldest used underground metro tunnel in the world.
    2. Electrify the City Line to St Helens line to access Central station, this is scheduled to happen, releasing platform space at Lime St main line for trans-Pennine trains.
    3. Electrify the Canada Dock Branch, this is scheduled to happen, getting the line into Central - LFCs stadium and outer suburbs are then served.

    As Lime St can still cope, the first stage should be to bring the inner cities onto Merseyrail to attract investment. Look at:
    Extending Merseyrail click here

    This was started with the constructing of Conway Park in Birkenhead's inner-city district. It should extended further with bringing Liverpool's inner-city districts on-line. Use the metro to greatly assist in regeneration. Property men like metro stations as land values rise around them. Economic growth is created.
    Last edited by Waterways; 05-24-2009 at 02:29 PM.
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    Hi all,

    thanks for moving the thread, wasnt 100% sure where to stick it.


    Waterways, yes I understand your points and we do need a system that better intergrates the inner city. This was purely created as a possible location for a second main line station, similar to the schemes in the south east that are to spread nationally, for High Speed mainlines.

    My idea was simply to study how to create a new destination for this area of the city. It seems apparent that ever since the removal of Exchange station, the area immediate to the old hall st cluster has struggled to find new meaning.

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    Scouseyuppie, I see where you are coming from. Many points:

    • Liverpool Waters will regenerate the back end of Exchange station.

    • By just re-using a tunnel not far off 200 years old the Merseyrail system is transformed giving great flexibility.

    • Lime St can still have more capacity - just by taking the commuter City Line away and underground - where it should be. This gives great knock-on benefits to Mesreyrail services. And great flexibility in getting the City Line and the Canada Dock Branch meshed properly into Merseyrail electric.

    • Lime St can be lengthened for longer trains- OK expensive rock cutting at the back of the station, but not a show stopper.

    • Trains can park at Edge Hill junction acting as a buffer for Lime St - increasing capacity yet gain.

    Maglev trains has been mentioned at Government level - running one between John Lennon and Manchester Airports along the ship canal wall. The problem is getting a Maglev terminal into Liverpool. The bottom section of the Queensway road tunnel can be used - as it was originally intended. However, only the underwater section was left big enough for trams/trains. Birkenhead announced it was to drop its tram system, so using the lower section was dropped. Some boring would be needed from vent shafts on each side to get trains under the road section - most the tunnel length is big enough.

    Then Maglevs could run up farmland on the Wirral, enter via Bidston, along B'head docks at high level and into the Dock exit of the tunnel and onto an underground station at Lime St - at the end of Queensway.

    Then connections to Merseyrail and Lime St main line.

    Or abandon Queensway for cars altogether and only use Kingsway tunnel. Greater Merseyrail services should eliminate the need for cars travelling between both sides of the river. Queensway can accommodate Maglev and Merseryrail - two Maglev and two Merseyrail lines can run through that tunnel.

    I do appreciate the existing rail tunnel can cope with around 3 to 4 times the existing traffic. However, the usage of the Queensway dock exits can give greater flexibility to Merseyrail accessing districts previously not reached. Using light-rail cars, the Liverpool docks exist can then go elevated, as in London's Docklands. At Birkenhead, Wallasey can be reached on elevated sections running right into Wirral Waters.
    Last edited by Waterways; 05-24-2009 at 02:27 PM.
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    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
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    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    Scouseyuppie, I see where you are coming from. Many points:

    • Liverpool Waters will regenerate the back end of Exchange station.

    • By just re-using a tunnel not far off 200 years old the Merseyrail system is transformed giving great flexibility.

    • Lime St can still has more capacity - just by taking commuter City Line away and underground - where it should be. This gives great knock-on benefits to Mesreyrail services. And great flexibility in getting City Line and the Canada Dock Branch meshed properly into Merseyrail electric.

    • Lime St can be lengthened for longer trains- OK expensive rock cutting at the back of the station, but not a show stopper.

    • Trains can park at Edge Hill junction acting as a buffer for Lime St - increasing capacity yet gain.

    Maglev trains has been mentioned at Government level - running one between John Lennon and Manchester Airports along the ship canal wall. The problem is getting a Maglev terminal into Liverpool. The bottom section of the Queensway road tunnel can be used - as it was originally intended. However, only the underwater section was left big enough for trams/trains. Birkenhead announced it was to drop its tram system, so using the lower section was dropped. Some boring would be needed from vent shafts on each side to get trains under the road section - most the tunnel length is big enough.

    Then Maglevs could run up farmland on the Wirral, enter via Bidston, along B'head docks at high level and into the Dock exit of the tunnel and onto an underground station at Lime St - at the end of Queensway.

    Then connections to Merseyrail and Lime St main line.

    Or abandon Queensway for cars altogether and only use Kingsway tunnel. Greater Merseyrail services should eliminate the need for cars travelling between both sides of the river. Queensway can accommodate Maglev and Merseryrail - two Maglev and two Merseyrail lines can run through that tunnel.

    I do appreciate the existing rail tunnel can cope with around 3 to 4 times the existing traffic. However, the usage of the Queensway dock exits can give greater flexibility to Merseyrail accessing districts previously not reached. Using light rail cars, the Liverpool docks exist can then go elevated, as in Docklands. At Birkenhead Wallasey can be reached on elevated sections running right into Wirral Waters too.
    yes, im familiar with the progress of the Maglev, i produced a number of visuals and project ideas for the maglev whilst working for the Liverpool office of a national Architecture firm (i wont name them; ) )

    The maglev i believe is a great concept but there are some glaringly big issues to overcome to use the route they are planning.

    Im interested in the areas that Liverpool waters will not stand in, the areas that I feel might end up with ad-hoc rushed developments in a rush to develop close to the Liverpool waters scheme and thus lead to more issues in an area of the city in need of some TLC.

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    Liverpool Waters runs from Princes Dock to Bramley Moore Dock. Exchange is alongside that. Of course it will encourage developments inland from it - hopefully a stadium in Vauxhall on the Northern Line.

    As I have pointed out, Lime St can cope with increased main line traffic with schemes with fantastic Merseyrail spin-offs, which will bring greater benefits than more long haul routes.

    If Maglev is a reality then getting a Maglev into Liverpool is the key. A straight fast line, so high speeds are kept up as much as possible. Using Queensway and an underground station at Lime street can do that with great connectivity.

    Below: A Maglev can use Queensway and a station at Lime St. The Merseyrail Lime St station is under St Georges Hall. They can be over each other.
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    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
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    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    Liverpool Waters runs from Princes Dock to Bramley Moore Dock. Exchange is alongside that. Of course it will encourage developments inland from it - hopefully a stadium in Vauxhall on the Northern Line.

    As I have pointed out, Lime St can cope with increased main line traffic with schemes with fantastic Merseyrail spin-offs, which will bring greater benefits than more long haul routes.

    If Maglev is a reality then getting a Maglev into Liverpool is the key. A straight fast line, so high speeds are kept up as much as possible. Using Queensway and an underground station at Lime street can do that with great connectivity.

    Below: A Maglev can use Queensway and a station at Lime St. The Merseyrail Lime St station is under St Georges Hall. They can be over each other.
    All the proposed maglev schemes that are on the table involve a line approaching the city from the direction of Manchester. To use the mersey tunnel tram deck for this scheme would go against that as It would suggest the line would have to swing around Ellesmere port before heading up the wirral peninsula to the Birkenhead portal of the tunnel.

    Nice idea, but it is contradictory to plans to have the maglev travel between manchester and and Liverpool airports with a later extension to the respective city centre's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scouseyuppie View Post
    All the proposed maglev schemes that are on the table involve a line approaching the city from the direction of Manchester. To use the mersey tunnel tram deck for this scheme would go against that as It would suggest the line would have to swing around Ellesmere port before heading up the wirral peninsula to the Birkenhead portal of the tunnel.

    Nice idea, but it is contradictory to plans to have the maglev travel between manchester and and Liverpool airports with a later extension to the respective city centre's.
    It is for the future. Running on the Ship Canal wall the Maglev can split off to John Lennon and then across the Wirral to Wirral Waters and Liverpool centre.

    Or off the Ship Canal wall at Runcorn, to John Lennon, out of John Lennon and up the middle of the estuary on a trestles - cheap to do with a Maglev using long rail spans between trestles - and a Maglev station on an artificial island over the Mersey rail tunnel and Merseyrail station cut into the tunnel beneath for access. The island could have tall tower on it too and some other attractions. Then the Maglev serves Liverpool, Birkenhead and John Lennon and Merseyrail give great transportation to all Merseyside.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
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    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    Great visuals ScouseYuppie!

    Surely Exchange was part of a regional or even national network to Southport and the North (Lime St to the East and Central to the South). This 'three- station' demand has disappeared very unfortunately.

    Liverpool Waters and Liverpool One/King's Dock are currently were the revivals are happening. The closest connections on the loop via Lime Street are currently Moorfields and James Street - close but no cigar!

    A Maglev or other link through the tunnels to one or other or even both of Waterloo and Park Road goods depot locations would be interesting from a regional, national or even international point of view. Great for business and tourism but no real connection to the inner wards.



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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    Great visuals ScouseYuppie!

    Surely Exchange was part of a regional or even national network to Southport and the North (Lime St to the East and Central to the South). This 'three- station' demand has disappeared very unfortunately.
    Merseyrail is a Collection of separate railways

    The best thing that happened to Liverpool, bizarrely was the Beeching cuts. Only one mainline station was to be on Merseyside, Lime St. Central, Exchange, Riverside and Woodside were to be decommissioned and a metro system connect all of Merseyside to Lime St. It is easier for people in West Kirby to get to Lime St than Woodside. Liverpool gained a metro system, which can be extensively extended even further.

    As with London's Underground, the Merseyrail system is made up of a collection of separate railways. London created the London Underground metro system in the 1930s, while Liverpool created Merseyrail metro in the 1970s, merging the railways at Liverpool city centre. The separate railways are still not fully merged into the system as there is no electrified Merseyrail link from the city centre to the important Edge Hill rail junction. The railway to St. Helens is not merged physically into Merseyrail, as originally planned, remaining a diesel line - the City Line. This lack of an electrified link also curtails expansion onto the extensive disused Liverpool rail infrastructure. Electrification within 4 years on the line to St. Helens will make matters better, as will the Canada Dock Branch.

    The three old railways that form the core of Merseyrail are the:

    • Mersey Railway
    • Wirral Railway
    • The Liverpool to Southport and Ormskirk sections of Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway


    The underground sections in the centre of Liverpool and under the River Mersey to Birkenhead form the nucleus of the Merseyrail network. The Mersey Railway Tunnel was opened in 1886, running from Green Lane, Birkenhead terminating at James Street station in Liverpool. This route was extended to Liverpool Central Station in 1890. A branch to Birkenhead Park was added in 1888 to connect with the Wirral Railway. The original line extended to Rock Ferry to connect with Birkenhead Woodside and the Chester line in 1891. Now Merseyrail runs directly to Chester.
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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    Nice map
    Last edited by Waterways; 07-29-2009 at 01:34 PM.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
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    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
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    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    Here's another!

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/40936407@N07/3769034710/


    Sorry, this is way off-topic from Exchange Station

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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    Here's another!

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/40936407@N07/3769034710/

    Sorry, this is way off-topic from Exchange Station
    Blurry! Does my eyes in. It is not just Merseyrail. It is unrealistic as there is another river crossing. This week it was announced that the Liverpool Manchester line is to be electrified immediately with also the Canada Dock Branch Line. Canada Dock Line is not on and St Helens electrified would not be like on the map. Electrifying the Burscough Curve will bring onto Merseyrail all stations from Ormskirk to Southport.

    Need a re-draw with the outer loop, Canada Dock, Curve, St Helens and Lime St to Hunts X via Mossely Hill.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
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    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
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    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    sorry, I'm having problems posting images. Any ideas?

    I am not sure how unrealistic it is as it was produced in an authoratitive study using traffic generation from city developments. Also, it does show the outer loop through Hunt's Cross. I thought you might find it interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    sorry, I'm having problems posting images. Any ideas?

    I am not sure how unrealistic it is as it was produced in an authoratitive study using traffic generation from city developments. Also, it does show the outer loop through Hunt's Cross. I thought you might find it interesting.
    It was interesting. A river crossing? Where? How? Why? However in the current climate Only the Canada Dock Branch (Bootle Line), Outer Loop, electric line to St. Helens, and Lime St to Hunts X would be on the cards.
    Last edited by Waterways; 07-29-2009 at 06:34 PM.
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    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
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    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    Apparently, the number of movements generated by Liverpool Waters and Northshore could be satisfied by the 'historic' infrastructure in all directions but one - crossing the river. Cars just don't have the capacity and in any event the road tunnels are close to capacity. Even a rejuvenated Ferry couldn't meet anticipated demand, so the answer had to be a new rail link across the mersey. A tunnel is cheaper than a bridge (remarkably).

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    and yes in the curent climate, it can't be justified any longer but it was important to earmark the bits of property needed for when the upturn cometh so they didn't get built on.

    It includes the outer loop and improvements to Hunts Cross but movements from St Helens would not be sufficent to justify any upgrade.

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    I remember changing trains at Rock Ferry on the way to Wales when I was a kid. It was dead exciting. It wasn't till years a later when I had to get the train to ellesmere port that I remembered about having to change trains in the past. I wasn't as good

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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    Apparently, the number of movements generated by Liverpool Waters and Northshore could be satisfied by the 'historic' infrastructure in all directions but one - crossing the river. Cars just don't have the capacity and in any event the road tunnels are close to capacity. Even a rejuvenated Ferry couldn't meet anticipated demand, so the answer had to be a new rail link across the mersey. A tunnel is cheaper than a bridge (remarkably).
    The current Mersey rail tunnel only handles 40% of its capacity. Use computerised signalling systems as on the London Jubilee line, which keep trains 30 seconds apart and there is nor need for a new crossing.

    I went to a concert at the O2 in London and only 18,00 turned up, yes only 18,000. At the tube station there was a massive line of people. I was expecting a 1 hour wait to get in. I was inside and home near Central London in 50 minutes after concert end. The trains were coming in thick and fast.

    The only Mersey crossing I can see happening is on a new barrier at New Brighton.

    Depending on the approach roads a tunnel "can" be cheaper than a bridge. The Mersey had tunnels for defence reasons.

    The bottom of the Queensway tunnel still can be used for trains. Well from Morpeth Dock vent tower to George's Dock vent tower.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
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    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    and yes in the curent climate, it can't be justified any longer but it was important to earmark the bits of property needed for when the upturn cometh so they didn't get built on.

    It includes the outer loop and improvements to Hunts Cross but movements from St Helens would not be sufficent to justify any upgrade.
    Liverpool-Manchester is being electrified ASAP, well the Manchester section first, and runs though St. Helens. Free electrification for Merseyrail.
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    Senior Member petromax's Avatar
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    It was concluded that the existing rail tunnel capacity would go well beyond 100% very quickly.

    The location of the new crossing was considered to tie in with the network better at or near the centre.

    The two options were costed. The tunnel was cheaper.

    The bottom half of Queeensway was built for extra capacity but is now junked up with air handling equipment.

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    Senior Member petromax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    Liverpool-Manchester is being electrified ASAP, well the Manchester section first, and runs though St. Helens. Free electrification for Merseyrail.
    Yes, it's maybe for 'free' if it runs through St. Helens but I understood it to be the Victoria Line via Huyton (from local press) but the traffic demand itself was for electrification to Manchester, not St. Helens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by petromax View Post
    It was concluded that the existing rail tunnel capacity would go well beyond 100% very quickly.
    You may find that is at the current signalling system. A new system, which is very expensive but cheaper than a tunnel, can shift, one train every 30 secs through the Mersey rail tunnel. That is 120 trains an hour with 900 on them. That is 108,000 people per hour one one-way. 216,000 two ways. Currently the maximum shifted is only around 40,000 per hour, one-way. Lots of scope before saturation. But I hope it comes soon.

    The bottom half of Queeensway was built for extra capacity but is now junked up with air handling equipment.
    ......and emergency mustering points. However if the need was there, the mustering points could be cut into the tunnel at the road deck level and the underside used for rail. Still cheaper than a new tunnel. If need be the cars can be excluded fopr rail. Who needs cars pouring into Liverpool when 90% can use a train?
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    Getting a bit esoteric, but I believe 16no Merseyrail Electrics an hour currently run at peak times. Your figures imply an eight-fold increase in the number of trains which I suppose must be possible as you say it, although at that rate your max capacity would be approx 320,000 per hour, perhaps your trains are shorter to achieve 216,000. It's a moot point what would happen once you got out of the tunnels to the stations (a train emptying and filling every 30 seconds at James Street?)!! Where else has this signalling system been used?

    Apparently the vent system is there to stay for sure (it's a continuous system end-to-end), unless you got rid of the cars altogether....now you're talking!

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    Waterways, would all ur trains have a minimum of 6 carriage ? I'm getting sick of packed tight 3 carriage ones this last week

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