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Thread: LIVERPOOL LIFE 1911-1914

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    Newbie Cagsy's Avatar
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    Smile LIVERPOOL LIFE 1911-1914

    I wonder if anyone might be able to help me with sources of information on Liverpool life in general between 1911 and 1914. I am researching for a book which will be set in this time frame. I want to get as much information as possible on how a working class family might have lived. I also want to know what was going on in Liverpool during this period so that I can put the events of the book in the correct historical context. I would be grateful if anyone can recomend books (fact or fiction), websites, articles or whatever. I want to absorb as much information as possible about the city during this period. I'd be particularly be interested to know about the following:

    Dock labourers' pay and conditions of employment
    How the system operated for dock workers. Were they hired by the day?
    How the overhead railway operated (how much was a ticket? Did they have inspectors? etc)
    What would be the diet of a working class family?
    Would a widow with 5 kids get any help from the state or otherwise?
    How did people end up in the workhouse and how could they get out of there?
    What did people do in the workhouse?
    Army recruitment in the city pre WW1. Circa 1912/13
    The tensions between catholic and protestants in the city during the 1911-1913 period. Netherfield Road riots?

    I know there is a lot that I am searching for, but I'd be grateful for pointers where I can get this information. Perhaps someone knows a good bookshop where I can get local history books. Waterstones has only a very small selection.

    Thanks in advance for any info you can give.


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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    In 1911 the police shot a man and the police station was besieged. Troops and armoured cars were on the streets.

    Docker were hired for the ship, not the day.
    Conditions for dockers was non-existent. Health and Safety was virtually unheard of.

    Lots of sites on the Overhead.

    Sectarian tension around Scotland Rd was always there until WW2 when the communities were purposely moved.
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    Senior Member taffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cagsy View Post

    I know there is a lot that I am searching for, but I'd be grateful for pointers where I can get this information. Perhaps someone knows a good bookshop where I can get local history books. Waterstones has only a very small selection.

    Thanks in advance for any info you can give.
    If you live in Liverpool try the Liverpool Central Library. It will be packed with the information you want.

    Also:
    Democracy and Sectarianism: Political and Social History of Liverpool,?

    by P.J. Waller is a good read

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    pfft Spike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post

    Sectarian tension around Scotland Rd was always there until WW2 when the communities were purposely moved.

    Are you sure about that? they moved them because of sectarian tension?

    I would think that statement is far from true.

    Scottie road was famous for its friendliness and community spirit, Yes it had problems like any other area, no worse than any other had it. overcrowding and a little thing called The Mersey Tunnel took many people away from the area.

    A lot of the families stayed in the area until the 1980s/90s when most of the tennement flats ( that they liked living in ) where knocked down. A lot of people who live in the area now have family history dating back over 100 years in the area. I guess they must have moved all the Sectarians out in WW2 or sent them to fight?

    I find that statement unbelievable, did you even think before you wrote your reply?

    Google Scotland Road and see the vast amount of detail that comes up all written by proud Scottie roaders. Salt of the earth people who took no messing but would do anything for you.

    Maybe you think it must have been so sectarian as so many Irish lived there? I know they are one of your favourite races.

    You should read the Scottie press web site, lots of people holding reunions and writing nice things about this violent area.

    Spike-Son of a born and bred Scottie Roader, ancestor of over 160 years Scottie Road history of good old Irish Stock. and proud of it
    BE NICE......................OR ELSE

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    Newbie Cagsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    Are you sure about that? they moved them because of sectarian tension?

    I would think that statement is far from true.

    Scottie road was famous for its friendliness and community spirit, Yes it had problems like any other area, no worse than any other had it. overcrowding and a little thing called The Mersey Tunnel took many people away from the area.

    A lot of the families stayed in the area until the 1980s/90s when most of the tennement flats ( that they liked living in ) where knocked down. A lot of people who live in the area now have family history dating back over 100 years in the area. I guess they must have moved all the Sectarians out in WW2 or sent them to fight?

    I find that statement unbelievable, did you even think before you wrote your reply?

    Google Scotland Road and see the vast amount of detail that comes up all written by proud Scottie roaders. Salt of the earth people who took no messing but would do anything for you.

    Maybe you think it must have been so sectarian as so many Irish lived there? I know they are one of your favourite races.

    You should read the Scottie press web site, lots of people holding reunions and writing nice things about this violent area.

    Spike-Son of a born and bred Scottie Roader, ancestor of over 160 years Scottie Road history of good old Irish Stock. and proud of it
    Please don't take the thread off topic. I just want a bit of help from fellow Scousers, or just anyone with an interest in our great city, to research 1911-1914 Liverpool. Any links, books or other info will be most welcome. Cheers, lads.

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    Newbie Cagsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taffy View Post
    If you live in Liverpool try the Liverpool Central Library. It will be packed with the information you want.

    Also:
    Democracy and Sectarianism: Political and Social History of Liverpool,?

    by P.J. Waller is a good read
    Thanks for the book lead. I'll look for a copy. And yes, the Central Library will be a great source.

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    Senior Member robbo176's Avatar
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    I have a book that I bought from WH Smiths called Tearaways-more gangs of Liverpool 1890-1970 by Michael Macilwee that has a interesting chapter on sectarian gangs & the violence around the Netherfield Rd area

    as you probaly know Netherfield Rd was Orange ,Scotland Rd was green & Gt Homer St was known as no mans land

    Mandy
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    As far as I know, there's been religious friction of some kind,for many years,in that area, though it's been quiet for the last 30 yrs,or so!( and yes, I did live there!) There have been "incidents", but these went unreported, so nothing much came of them, so a good case for news blackouts!?

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    pfft Spike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cagsy View Post
    Please don't take the thread off topic. I just want a bit of help from fellow Scousers, or just anyone with an interest in our great city, to research 1911-1914 Liverpool. Any links, books or other info will be most welcome. Cheers, lads.
    I dont see how it has gone off topic? I replied to something that i believe is wrong.

    Liverpool records office has a lot of newspapers from this period that you can view. They may give you something.

    little bit on the 1911 riots here http://rooksmoor.blogspot.com/2008/1...liverpool.html includes references.
    BE NICE......................OR ELSE

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    Senior Member robbo176's Avatar
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    Newbie Cagsy's Avatar
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    Thanks guys. I'm hoping to build up a large volume of research, so pretty much anything to do with 1911-1914 Liverpool will help.

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    Default Our Scottie

    The period you want to cover is up to the First World War, is that an important era? My recently deceased Mother was from Athol Street and my late Father came from Great Homer street. The Scottie they came out of was Liverpool Irish and the Catholic Church had a monopoly on education. My Fathers brother won a scholarship which was unheard off in the poorer strata of Scottie road folk, unfortunately he caught TB and died, yet the oral tradition remained and the tale was told of a really intelligent Paddy. Then there was the large family syndrome. I come from sixteen. In my mothers day infant mortality was high and so big families were the norm out of 11 perhaps six would survive. With Catholic morals and values large families still appeared and the authorities by the 50?s started to stigmatize the practice yet the church remained anti contraception. Sectarianism has always been a tool of the political elite divide and rule is a well established political force and Liverpool like Glasgow was a place where it was used. The Welsh influence should never be underestimated Welsh names in Liverpool are as common as Irish names and migrant workers from north Wales settled in Liverpool along with the Irish who could not afford an Atlantic sea crossing. Irish oral tradition was practiced in north Liverpool and Dublin sayings abounded if you read James Joyce all the evidence is there. The Dock workers like the Clyde workers were introduced to class politics that removed them from narrow sectarian views and in Liverpool itself to this day religion is not of so much concern for people who are politically aware. Struggles have brought people closer together. The troubles in Northern Ireland have allowed the Catholic Church to hold Liverpool Catholics in a moral headlock when they themselves have contributed to the problem as much as anyone else by maintaining power. In the early 50?s the Catholic Church shipped loads of kids off to Australia the present Pope apologized to Australia for their treatment. I think one day people will break from the superstitious religious power of these people and the real Liverpool character will shine through.
    Oh as I was young and easy in the mercy of his means,
    Time held me green and dying
    Though I sang in my chains like the sea.

    Dylan Thomas

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    Default Resource and details of 1911 riots

    Can I suggest:

    P.J. Waller, 'Democracy and Sectarianism. A Political and Social History of Liverpool, 1868-1939', (Liverpool, 1981).

    Following the Bootle by-election of March 1911, won by Conservative leader Andrew Bonar Law, there was sectarian rioting.

    As to the August 1911 riots, there must be a lot of local history details around that you can tap into. The city effectively suffered a general strike and the death rate was double that of the previous August. Food which came into the city by ship and rail was cut off by the dock and rail strikes and there were bread riots with the bakeries having to be defended by the military.

    Four people were shot, two were killed, but these were by the Army not the police. There were 200 rifle-armed members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, but the bulk of police only had truncheons. The council brought in police from Leeds and Birmingham. They also summoned 400 infantrymen, including elements of the two squadrons of cavalry and a Royal Service Corps detachment. By 26 August 1911 when the strikes ended, there were 2,500 soldiers including from the Yorkshire and Worcestershire regiments, the Royal Scots Greys and the 18th Hussars in Liverpool and 4,000 special constables had been recruited.

    On 13 August a rally of 5,000 people on St. George?s Plateau turned into a riot with 350 people, including 20 police, injured and 100 arrests being made. The commanding military officer, in line with the policy confirmed in 1908, exercised his right to refuse police demands to open fire, thus avoiding carnage. This was because the guidance to soldiers in riots was to fire into the crowd rather than over their heads. This arose because in 1894 a man had been killed a quarter of a mile away from a riot as he stepped out from his house when soldiers fired over the head. It was felt firing into the crowd would hit the perpetrators rather than by-standers but would have led to a massace at St. George's Plateau if the guidance had been followed.

    On 15 August the attack by 3,000 people on five prison vans demonstrated the hazards of using soldiers. Only 34 hussars and police officers accompanied the convoy. The hussars? horses were not suitably shoed for the cobbled streets and skidded. In the panic the soldiers fired six shots, killing two people and injuring two. The ensuing riot resulted in numerous injuries and one police officer being kicked to death.

    The cruiser, HMS 'Antrim' sat in the Mersey during the strikes, although its crew took no part in actions that resulted from the unrest; the council wanted them to man the power stations but this was refused by the government.

    I have read everything there is at the National Archives on the Liverpool riots of 1911 and there are references to the files I have accessed on my blog which has already been cited.

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    Crowds gather outside the house of John Sutcliffe, one of those killed in Vauxhall Road outside the Jamaica public house. This building is still there and was known locally as 'the rat'.





    See more on my site below for some living conditions in the era you mention.
    www.inacityliving.piczo.com/

    Updated weekly with old and new pics.

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    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    Riots in Standish Street during the 1911 strike.

    Cabonara took a lot of photos to records these events.












    .
    www.inacityliving.piczo.com/

    Updated weekly with old and new pics.

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    Newbie Cagsy's Avatar
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    Thanks guys, particularly Ged for that wonderful website. Brings back some great memories. I'm particularly interested to learn about life around the Kirkdale area during 1911-1914. The area around Arlington Street is of particular interest.

    Thanks

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    1911: Soldiers of the 2nd Warwickshire Regiment disembark at Brunswick Goods Station on Sefton St/Northumberland St. This station was for a few years a major passenger terminus, until Central Station was built. This was the first time since 1874 that the station had been used by passenger trains. The soldiers were kept away from major flash points of the city centre and the immediate North End of the city.




    Below: Liverpool Magistrate Start Deacon with Colonel East of the Second Warwickshire Regiment at Brunswick Goods Station.



    Below: Brunswick Goods station. The small buildings is the former passenger rail building, with the later massive goods station built around it.


    Below: HMS Antrim, which was anchored in mid-river during the riots of 1911.


    The first World War saved the UK from major civil upheaval that would have meant a regime change - and in all likelihood not kept the monarchy in power.
    Last edited by Waterways; 03-10-2009 at 09:29 PM.
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    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robbo176 View Post
    here are a couple more interesting links

    http://www.thetablet.co.uk/article/2828
    The above link is quite good. It touches on how the city's ruling class divided and ruled and kept wage costs down by:

    1. Religious segregation.

    2. Owning vast tracts of land and property - The merchants and ship owners also owned vast tracts of land around the city and with coherence with the council did not allow other forms of industry to form that would compete with the core warehousing and shipping industries.

    It was not until the 1920/30s that new diverse industries came into the city in any volume, paying more than traditional industries, and new art deco factories were built on the outskirts. Post WW2, the car factories came.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
    Rapid-transit rail: Everton, Liverpool & Arena - CLICK

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