A slightly larger version of the map [LRO].
Attachment 17934
Daz
Printable View
A slightly larger version of the map [LRO].
Attachment 17934
Daz
Yep. That's it. Thanks, Daz. I am assuming then that what we know as Penny Lane is actually an old country lane, and would have been there even before James Penny came to Liverpool from Ulverston. The question then is whether it was named "Penny Lane" before he came to the city, which would negate the claim that the road is named after him.
Chris
The poem that includes "Penny Lane, Slavery Shame" was installed several months ago, together with a replica of the Liverbird from the Sailors Home.
Located here on Google Streetview, still showing the remains of the church wall:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&so...,41.7,,0,-1.44
It caught my eye as the author has linked the street to slavery. This is one of the few mentions of slavery I've noticed on the streets of Liverpool.
St James Church and Penny Lane are at opposite ends of the boundary of Toxteth Park. Half of Penny Lane (the Northern side) from Smithdown Place and everything from the railway bridge are within Toxteth.
None of the later addresses mentioned for Mr. Penny would fall within the Parish of St. James.
Thanks for this information, Marky. Yes I certainly agree that the downtown addresses that are listed for Penny would not have fallen within the Parish of St. James. Still, it's conceivable that as a wealthy merchant, he or his heirs could have purchased or inherited property in the area of Penny Lane. I am just trying to explore the possibility though that the idea that "Penny Lane" was named for James Penny might be a belief that somehow grew up without any foundation in fact. If the street is in fact named for James Penny well so be it... just as Tarleton Street off Church Street is named after the slave-trading Tarleton family (and I have written about and lectured on General Sir Banastre Tarleton in the past) but I would like to see verification that Penny Lane is named for James Penny or his family.
Cheers
Chris :PDT_Aliboronz_24:
Hi Chris,
Penny Lane is just inside the boundary of Toxteth Park. It's not very long and leads to Greenbank, the home of the Rathbones. It's not a through lane, like, for example Ullet Lane. I'm guessing that it's no older than the Greenbank estate.
The association with James Penny may have been posthumously awarded, if it does indeed have anything to do with him? It looks like the family have no connection to the area though.
Daz
CG and Daz... I think the same thought has occured to us all.
Earliest online newspaper ref I can find to Penny Lane is the sale of "Grove House" in 1852. Its listed as "GROVE HOUSE, situated in Penny Lane, Green-Bank near Wavertree".
Interestingly in 1872, Joseph Boult of the Liverpool Literary and Philosophical Society in a (very long-winded and opinionated) essay entitled: 'Gleanings in the early history of Liverpool and the neighbourhood', states that:
"The names of Penny Lane and Penketh
bear testimony to conflict, pinn-nidh, pinn-keit, both
signifying battle-hill. The names of Penketh and Penny
are of firequent occurrence on the ordnance survey. In this
neighbourhood, at the junction of Penny Lane and Smith-
down Road, are two fields, which, on Lord Sefion's
map, circa 1764, bear the name of Higher Smetham
Hey, and Smetham Croft, which are derived from the
hamlet a certain poor man, Bohert de Smethdon, son of
Thurstan, was obliged to surrender to King John, in
exchange for Thingwall, the site of another local court."
Whilst it is possible that Boult is right about Penny Lane he is almost certainly wrong about the origin of Smithdown (Smetham/don) as this was in the earliest records 'Esmedune'.
I didn't find Penny Lane on the 1841 Census here:
http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.u...41ST-IND-P.htm
But, it is listed as PENNIES Lane:
PENNIES LANE, PENNIES GROVE COTTAGE 511 WAVERTREE 10 04
The above address is on the South side of Penny Lane and therefore is correctly recorded as Wavertree
Hi Marky and Fortinian
I think the 1841 listings of "PENNIES LANE" and "PENNIES GROVE COTTAGE" is potentially valuable and might indicate that the name of the lane has nothing to do with James Penny, the merchant. It could be that someone nearer our day thought that the street is named for James Penny and it is not. It also does though occur to me that there might be a connection between the designation "Penketh" and the name of the lane, conceivably. Could the road have once been known as Penketh Lane? I do know that Penketh Hall stood near the junction of Smithdown Road and Greenbank Road (Robert Griffiths, The History of the Royal and Ancient Park of Toxteth, Liverpool, 1907, p. 148).
Chris
There is a PDF file for some of the slavery streets (click top-right on this page)@
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/d...ead-the-signs/
It's quite possible Pennies is Penny but has just been written down as heard rather than correctly spelt.
I checked the 'street directory' section of Gore's Liverpool Directory, 1825...NO Penny Lane or any variant listed. EDIT: It's absence accounted for by the fact the directory doesn't cover the area this far out from town, though some Toxteth Park addresses are included.
http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/index.asp
Good find Marky, i'm sure you've noticed that Penny Lane isn't included in the English Heritage List. I think they have done the research we are doing and cannot find any positive link.
Hi Daz
That sounds a bit unlikely to me, Daz. These people might have been political opponents, and felt passionately about their beliefs, but it was a gentlemanly time with a code of honor even between opponents. It would seem to me that to put the name of a man associated with slavery on the Rathbones' doorstep to spite them doesn't seem likely.
Chris
Cumbria produced a booklet that states:
"James Penny (1741- 99) was born at Egton-cum-Newland in Furness"
HTML
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=uk
http://www.creative-partnerships.com...-lowres-34.pdf
He was honoured with the Freedom of the borough of Liverpool:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a...87md62&cid=0#0
I'd have thought definite proof of a link would be all over the internet by now. Maybe the International Slavery Museum have proof.
Here's a street missing from the slavery streets list shown in post No.45:
"Crow St. made in 1809 was named after Captain Hugh Crow, the most famous of the Privateer & Slave trade Captains" (source: 240 Years On, A short history of R. S. Clare, pub. 1988).
Crow Street still exists, together with street-signs at each end, but as it's now within the factory complex it is a 'forgotten street'. I wonder how many other slave streets have been lost.
Crow Street, Google Streetview:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&so...89.16,,1,-0.99
Hi Chris,
Yes, if a neighbour had actually gone ahead and done it, it would've led to a duel no doubt...insulting a man's honour like that [decorum between gentlemen]. Still you have to admit it is a bizarre coincidence given the individuals mentioned and their opposing stance on the slave trade.
I will be swayed by sound argument and good reason nevertheless.
Cheers,
Daz
PS - is there a date for Roscoe's poem featuring Penny Lane?
Hi Daz
Roscoe wrote a poem that mentions Penny Lane???? I don't think so. He has a poem titled "Mount Pleasant." As far as I know he wrote no poem that references Penny Lane.
All the best
Chris
Marky they probably turned a blind eye on this one. Captain Hugh Crow was known as "Mind your eye, Crow" on account of him losing his right eye as a child.
---------- Post added at 08:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:15 PM ----------
My mistake...I re-read Marky's original post 'Penny Lane, Liverpool shame' and thought it had something to do with Roscoe?
No. As I say I think that is probably a recent poem based on what I assume is the equally recent view that Penny Lane must be named for slave captain and merchant James Penny but that, as we have been discussing, might actually be mistaken if we can't find any documentation that the naming of the road was for Penny.
Chris
I checked the Library index for St James Church and found this extract:
"The church was not assigned a Parish until 1844". This probably accounts for his burial here, even though he seems to have lived in Town (and married at St Nicholas 1768).
http://archive.liverpool.gov.uk/dser...83%20JAM%27%29
The first naming of Penny Lane, found so far, is the 1840s well after his death ((1799), or that of his eldest son (also James Penny d.1820). The track existed for many decades prior to this date and likely already had a name. As the census was 1841 I'd assume it was Penny Lane prior to this decade.
A trawl of early newspapers would seem to be the most likely place to find street-name changes and announcements about creating new streets etc. I'd hate to be the one searching for the word 'penny', though.
Good work Marky.
If there is a name-change notice to 'Penny Lane' in the newspapers (assuming it was actually named after James Penny) then I'd target the years 1799-1807. After 1807 (post-abolition of the slave trade) may have been an unpopular decision given the public mood at the time. Although it wasn't until the Slavery Abolition Act was passed in 1833 that gave all slaves in the British Empire their freedom.
"Penny" - I'm not volunteering to search either. :-)
Daz
Thanks, Marky. I think you are right that a trawl of early newspapers might elucidate the origin of the name "Penny Lane" so thanks for that. A study of land records or records of law cases also might help.
I have found a few early mentions of the name through Google Books, one of which might bear out my earlier suspicion that there may be a link between Penny Lane and the name Penketh Hall, a local mansion that stood near the junction of Greenbank Road and Smithdown Road:
"The names of Penny Lane and Penketh bear testimony to conflict, K. pinn-nidh, pinn-keit, both signifying battle-hill. The names of Penketh and Penny are of frequent occurrence on the ordnance survey."
In: Joseph Boult, F.R.I.B.A., "GLEANINGS IN THE EARLY HISTORY OF LIVERPOOL AND THE NEIGHBOURHOOD," Proceedings of the Liverpool Literary and Philosophical Society, Volume 30, 1876, pp. 153-82 (quote on page 171).
On the downside, if you look at the rest of the article, Mr Boult might be a bit creative in terms of some of his interpretations of local names, and as far as I know there is no independent verification that a battle took place in the neighborhood of Penny Lane and Penketh Hall. I am also not sure what he means by the designation "K." though elsewhere he uses "AS" which certainly denotes "Anglo Saxon." Look at his discussion of the possible origins of the name "Liverpool" at the top of p. 157 and where he also uses the abbreviation "K."
Penny Lane is also mentioned in The Times Law Reports, Volume 16, 1900, p. 44, in a law case, Littledale v. Liverpool College heard in the Court of Appeal, 1899, involving "a small strip of land near Toxteth-park, Liverpool":
"The land in dispute was a narrow strip open at both ends, situate between two fields belonging to a Dr. Solomon, the defendants' predecessor in title, and having hedges the whole length of the strip. The strip led from a public road called Penny-lane to a piece of land belonging to a person named Sinclair and adjoining the two fields above referred to, but separated by them from Penny-lane. In 1843 this piece of land, which was then pasture, was conveyed to the plaintiffs or their predecessor, and it is hereinafter referred to as the plaintiffs' field. The strip of land was grass and was the means of access to the plaintiffs' field from Penny-lane."
I am assuming the Dr. Solomon in question is the famed Dr. Samuel Solomon (1745–1819) of the Balm of Gilead who owned lands in Kensington and what is now south Liverpool. A grand mausoleum built on his estate in Mossley Hill was later demolished when the land was purchased by the London and North Western Railway Company and the remains of the doctor and his family removed to the Necropolis on West Derby Road.
Chris
CG, I also found Boults article and was confused by the 'K'. I now realise it stands for 'Keltic'. Boult was writing in a time when K/Celtic was generally thought to mean Anglo-Saxon or Old English. The K simply means it was the Keltic name for something.
Thanks, Daz. Yes I somehow thought that might be what he meant.
Chris
The 'Pennies lane' link I gave on post No. 80 has an incorrect transcription.
I checked the 1841 census and it is recorded as PENNIS Lane. The name appears twice, next to Grove Cottage, copies below:
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...nsus_crop1.jpg
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...nsus_crop2.jpg
This site already had Grove Cottage, Pennis Lane, and the Census reference numbers:
http://yourarchives.nationalarchives...reet_Index_G-K