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Wow just been to look at the waterloo tunnel and wow after all these years since the early 1970s the tunnel and the site of the old hodson street station is clear of all them years off overgrowth and rubbish i got some boss photos, anyone have any updates on the plan to for the new merseyrail line for this tunnel?
http://s153.photobucket.com/albums/s...ilways/Hodson/
urh, hurry up and post your pics!! I would have loved to had seen the tunnel :PDT_Piratz_26::handclap::PDT11
Yes, post the pics. "Hodson St" station is still in question. :) Anything from Merseyrail tends to be a wish-list rather than firm plans.Quote:
Originally Posted by oritelad
The 4th pic on your photobucket is way out of date. It was taken during the demolition of Fonney Oy in 1988/89.
I'm not an expert on railways, but I can't see the point of an intermediate station on what was a Goods line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
The Victoria and the Wapping tunnels were built to transport goods between Edge Hill and the Docks (North and South).
What would an intermediate station be used for, and isn't it significant that there aren't any in the Wapping tunnel?
i'm way out of contact but is the jist of the story / pics that it has taken 100 years plus to un-improve the place, if so i'm not surprised, stations we needed 100 years ago are useless as we now have cars, lorrys etc... they are nice to see in the regard of the way we used to live but also we used cut up squares of newspaper instead of toilet tissue, nice to remember but nobody's going back to it, maybe you could initiate a book /forum telling us how exactly it used to be, who went there and why coupled up with some more photos for old times sake,
As i've said before, I lived a stones throw from this site and never knew of a station ever being there, (although of course there could've been many moons earlier) Mike Delamar who comes on this site now and again, is a sort of authority on railways, having the Crown st layout at the last Liverpool railway exhibition show and knows the chaps working on the Lime st one. He's read all the books, got all the pics and is a chum of a very old bloke who worked on the steam engines and if he says there wasn't a station at Hodson Street, I believe him. He reckons the cutting there is only so big as to be an access point for any problems below.
I could understand the overlarge cutting being at the half-way point, however it is not. It is very near to the Waterloo Dock exit of the tunnel. The Tunnel has two names. and changes name around this point. This may indicate why the cutting is there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged
The cutting is overlarge for ventilation purposes and must have had some other purpose. Or it was for another reason and plans changed and it was kept. In London and NY whole underground stations were built and never used as plans changed in mid project.
as i have said before i am not saying hodson station was a proper station at all but we should not just ignore it from what i know there was platforms, station building down there and stairs leading down and this station is not listed on any maps but from what i know it was there and never lasted long even my granddad has used it has he lived by it all his life, it was more for access and rail workers ect not for passengers really but this station was built to be a proper station but the plan was scraped remember this line was used by passengers to reach riverside station from edge hill and i cant find any records of alcar rifle range station or millers bridge station or british anka great howard street but we know they where there dont know why everyone is so against hodson station not being there
The station, if it was there, is out of living memory. There is no photographic evidence or written of any sort so far, so people will naturally assume one was not there.Quote:
Originally Posted by oritelad
You say your Grandad used it for work purposes. I don't disbelieve you, however a stop for workers is rather different to a full blown passenger station. Also as the cutting is so close to Waterloo why would a stop be in the tunnel? It doesn't make sense. I am not saying it wasn't there, just that nothing logically fits about using the cutting as a station for any reason.
Hi Guys
I thought I cleared up the reason why the cutting was wide here on another thread which I have copied below. I have never found any reference to a station at this place in the various LNWR minute books I have studied at the PRO. Without wishing to disrespectfull memories cloud as we get older. My wife's father often talked about the 14 stations on the overhead railway and wouldn't believe me when I told him he was wrong even when I showed him the book 'Seventeen Stations to Dingle'!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
The cutting is way too large for ventilation and is station sized. This naturally makes people think there was a station there. I have a hunch provision was put for one in case when the tunnel was being cut.
Ah well if that's the reason I can clear this up. The cutting was wide because that was the location of the runaway catch points. The one on the line to Waterloo ran off towards the wall. The one on the line to Edge Hill ran off between the running lines hence they would be set at a wider interval.
Mike Turner
I'm not quite sure how that works. Are you saying there was a widening of the tunnel at this point?Quote:
Originally Posted by mikewturner
HiQuote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
Yes the cutting was wider as effectively it had to accomodate four lines. The two normal running lines plus a runoff to the side of one of them and another into the middle between them like this if you get what I mean.
Edge Hill
>__________________\___________________ Waterloo
<__________________/___________________
The cutting here is close to the base of rising gradients towards Edge Hill and Waterloo.
I will scan an extract of a plan and post when I get a chance.
Regards
Mike
Yes, from Waterloo to Hodson St it is pretty flat then a sharp rise.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikewturner
Whether there was a station there 100 years ago or not is pretty irrelevant in my eyes.
From a student's point of view, such as myself, a new 'metro' station at Byrom St (or Fontenoy) would be fantastic.
I am at Byrom St, along with around 2000 other students and hundreds of staff. The only car parking is for staff, and this is set to close in the future - I think the uni wants to encourage more 'environmentally sustainable' ways of travelling to Byrom St.
Also near this 'station' are many student flats, the Avril Robarts library, the museum, art gallery, and of course the excellent Ship & Mitre pub!
Another way of looking at this in a 'student' perspective is that this tunnel effectively ends up at Edge Hill. It is around this area that many students live, and if a new station was constructed around Smithdown, access to Byrom St for students would be easier, quicker, more 'sustainable', and help ease road congestion.
One more issue as regards this line and universities, is the even better prospect of opening a new station somewhere around the Liverpool University district, serving even more students. I know the line runs underneath The Dental University, which is more or less in the heart of the university area, but I'm not sure where the exits would be. This shouldn't be a problem though, as some underground exits are so small, you wouldn't know they were.
I have previously posted this....Quote:
Originally Posted by jc_everton
If the Shanghai Tower at Princes Half-Tide Dock is approved, Merseyrail has to seriously consider reopening the Waterloo tunnel which emerges adjacent. This tower may have a cascade affect of development from it further inland too and then Byrom St may need a station at Fontenoy cutting in the tunnel.
Get the underground rail infrastructure in place and the rest will follow. This may need serious public money invested in the Merseyrail system - essential.
An outer Liverpool city centre underground circle line should be a priority to regenerate the inner city. As outlined in another thread:
- Take the Garston line at Otterspool under Otterspool Park (cut and cover). Easy to do across parkland.
- Into Aigburth Vale, and build an underground station here serving that centre.
- Down Aigburth Rd to Dingle (cut and cover again) and a station at Lark Lane, serving that centre.
- Up to Dingle from Lark Lane and branch into the Dingle tunnel
- Re-commission the disused Dingle station serving that centre.
- Re-commission the Dingle tunnel and install a gantry that takes the tracks to low level and back into the Garston line at the Herculaneum Dock.
- Abandon the St Micheal's Station and the line from Otterspool to Herculaneum.
- From the top of Aigburth Rd branch along Ullyet Rd and across Princes Park (cut and Cover), to Lodge Lane/Sefton Pk Rd. Easy to do across parkland.
- Build a station at Sefton Park Rd serving the park and that centre.
- Take the tunnel up Lodge Lane (cut and cover)
- Build a station in Lodge Lane and serve that centre.
- Up Tunnel Rd to Edge Hill junction.
- Down the Waterloo Tunnel from Edge Hill
- Cut out of the tunnel a new station at London Rd serving that centre
- Cut out of the tunnel a new station at Byrom St serving that centre
- Out at Waterloo Dock
- Build a station here serving that centre
- Branch onto the northern line and back to the city centre.
This outer city center underground loop serves many centres which would act as a catalyst for regeneration in all of them - re-generate the inner city!!!!! Two existing tunnels, the Waterloo and Dingle, would be re-commissioned alleviating much of the cost with the rest being mainly cut and cover.
It would be quite cheap for what it would offer and the re-birth of the inner city. What city has such a legacy that is easily adapted to provide such a base in which to re-generate the inner city? Most other cities in the world would drool at what Liverpool has which is already in place.
Waterways: a very interesting and detailed post, you should send your ideas off to MerseyRail complete with maps and diagrams. They probably wouldn't take it seriously, but it shows you have more vision than they do.
Unfortunately, I don't know south Liverpool well, so I got a bit lost halfway through your post!
The key word you seem to emphasise is 'regeneration', which I will be doing a masters in next year.
The only problem I've got with your idea then is that although it would massively benefit south Liverpool socio-economically, it would be another case of massive investment in south Liverpool, and something which would not be of benefit to east or north Liverpool - which is where I believe the investment should be being made, and statistically holds some of the most deprived areas in the country.
As the north Liverpool extension line is alive and active, a bit of investment (not an awful lot would be needed in comparison to your plans) in this line, allowing people in the areas around the line to travel to city centre quickly and effectively, whilst as previously discussed, allowing thousands of Everton and Liverpool supporters to travel to a whole host of destinations. And if the North Mersey Branch Line reopened, it would also link in Aintree/Maghull etc.
Perhaps the north Liverpool extension line will reopen at some stage in the future - the reopening of the Olive Mount Chord is a step in the right direction, as so many areas of north Liverpool would be connected to Manchester without having to travel to Central, then Lime St. The chord would also allow for football supporters to travel east.
Technically, you could have trains running from near Walton Lane (the football stop) directly to Lime St (connecting the Wirral), Southport, Ormskirk, Liverpool Parkway (via Edgehill?) Hunts Cross, Warrington, St Helens, Manchester.
Maybe not all of these destinations would have direct services, but the scope is there, and lets not forget, Everton and Liverpool fans travel from all over the place.
Follow a map as you are reading. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jc_everton
Put the infrastructure there and they will flock in.Quote:
The key word you seem to emphasise is 'regeneration', which I will be doing a masters in next year.
Not so. The loop goes around the centre, south, east and north. Station cut into the Waterloo tunnel serving he north side of the centre. Edge Hill, and connections, serving the east. The loop would be from Waterloo going south: Waterloo into Moorfields/Central stn. On to Parliament st (old underground station already there), Brunswick, Dingle, Sefton Park Rd, Lodge Lane, Edge Hill, Down the waterloo Tunnel, Station cut in at London Rd, Hodgson ST, back to Waterloo. Lark Lane and Aigburth would be off the loopQuote:
The only problem I've got with your idea then is that although it would massively benefit south Liverpool socio-economically, it would be another case of massive investment in south Liverpool, and something which would not be of benefit to east or north Liverpool - which is where I believe the investment should be being made, and statistically holds some of the most deprived areas in the country.
Peel is investing a lot in Liverpool Waters in the north end, Far more than what the south end will ever get. That will be a catalyst that will spread out.
That is largely intact and needs updating. The loop just needs some mainly cut and cover and the odd tunnel boring leavings stations behind. London Rd is the only station, and maybe the Royal Hosp that needs cutting out.Quote:
As the north Liverpool extension line is alive and active, a bit of investment (not an awful lot would be needed in comparison to your plans) in this line, allowing people in the areas around the line to travel to city centre quickly and effectively, whilst as previously discussed, allowing thousands of Everton and Liverpool supporters to travel to a whole host of destinations. And if the North Mersey Branch Line reopened, it would also link in Aintree/Maghull etc.
Worth doing. However an inner city underground loop will befit the city as whole.Quote:
Perhaps the north Liverpool extension line will reopen at some stage in the future - the reopening of the Olive Mount Chord is a step in the right direction, as so many areas of north Liverpool would be connected to Manchester without having to travel to Central, then Lime St. The chord would also allow for football supporters to travel east.
Getting them in and out fast is a priority indeed, however the regeneration of the inner city is paramount. Once done, it will spread out.Get the centre and immediate inner city around the centre sorted and the rest will fall into line.Quote:
Technically, you could have trains running from near Walton Lane (the football stop) directly to Lime St (connecting the Wirral), Southport, Ormskirk, Liverpool Parkway (via Edgehill?) Hunts Cross, Warrington, St Helens, Manchester.
Maybe not all of these destinations would have direct services, but the scope is there, and lets not forget, Everton and Liverpool fans travel from all over the place.
Ok, but I'm still very confused as to the whereabouts of some these tunnels - there is only so much information on a map - no underground information.
I am aware there is some sort of tunnel in Dingle, but I can't find this on old maps. Is it still intact, and does connect with the Northern Line. I really think that we should start producing maps and diagrams to explain ourselves a little better!
You say about Waterloo connecting with the Northern Line, but doesn't this tunnel run below the Northern Line? Therefore, new tunnels would have to be constructed - heavy investment needed. And as for the loop running down south Liverpool near Sefton Park, are you implying that whole new tunnels need to be constructed too?
I personally believe that the Waterloo Line should be connected to the Northern Line and also to Lime St - but again, a new tunnel would be needed, yes? I really think a definitive tunnels map needs to be made - well the council probably have one, but getting hold of it is another matter.
Come to think of it, your loop idea is smart, but my concern lies with Meseyside as a whole, and if commuters from all over Merseyside can travel to near London Rd, Waterloo, Wapping and other areas you mention, then that can only be of benefit to the city.
But I do believe the area around the North Liverpool Extension Line is in the most need of regenerating, and this line, at least for now, has the potential to link up to Lime St.
As I say though Mr. Waterways, maps and diagrams would be fantastic - indeed, you should write a dissertation like myself!
Below: 1913 map:
http://i32.tinypic.com/33avsph.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/2ut704k.jpg
above a 1913 map
- The proposed loop line is in blue.
- The blue and pink are existing disused tunnels
- The blue and green is predominantly cut and cover not tunnelling.
- The blue only is existing used line.
- Tunneling where cut and cover meets existing tunnels.
- The red is the existing unused Wapping tunnel.
- The new stations are marked
The existing used line from Otterspool station to the end of the Dingle tunnel (blue and pink tunnel) can be taken up and free up this area for development.
The cut and cover of Aigburth Rd can be put back and only the loop formed making the project cheaper. However Aigburth Vale and a new station for Lark Lane would not be built.
Dingle underground station 1906 (toxteth.net)
http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/att...2&d=1219042388
Dingle underground station still exists:
http://static.flickr.com/120/308696416_019aa03984.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/118/308701110_0b937f3cb9.jpg
Below: the Dingle Tunnel. Tunnel to Dingle station. The south end of the old Overhead Railway. It started underground.
http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/att...3&d=1219042388
A BIG Outer Loop:
Depending on if a Mersey barrage is built. If so a bridge over the Mersey From Speke/Garston to the Wirral.
Recommission the outer loop from Edge Hill through Walton to the North End Docks. Over the barrage into New Brighton. Down the Wirral on existing Merseyrail and onto the Bridge. Across the Mersey and meet up at South Parkway. Could recommission the Gatacre Line track through Childwall.
I already have a degree - one is enough. If I write one will they give me another degree?Quote:
Originally Posted by jc_everton
From a transport plan for the future point of view it makes no odds but from an accurate historical record it is very important.Quote:
Originally Posted by jc_everton
So far only one person has stated that a station existed here and has not presented any facts to back this up. I am sorry but memories are not good enough. What is required is evidence from primary sources eg plans, maps, minute books, photographs etc. So far these all point to no station at this site.
Further to my previous posting re the actual reason for the wide cutting at Hodson Street here is the gradient diagram for the line taken from a BR signalling plan.
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/3...ntcharthl8.jpg
And here is an extract from the same plan showing the catch points intended to derail trains running away on the steep gradients.
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/2...cuttingvc0.jpg
Edge Hill (Waterloo Tunnel Mouth) is to the left and Waterloo Goods to the right. The signal is Waterloo Goods Distant shown at 975 yards from the signal box and the concentric circles on posts numbered 32 and 36 are gongs (bells) worked from the signal box to give instructions to shunting trains. The run-off from the bottom line is shown with a sand drag and because it's between the running lines they must be set at a wider interval and therefore the cutting is wider.
Regards
Mike Turner
Mike, where did you get them plans from? Fantastic stuff.
From an objective point of view, the consensus seems to be that there was no passenger station (or any station of note) at Byrom St, so I think it should be a matter of case closed.
The great thing about the cutting though, and the small piece of land next to it (corner of Byrom St and Great Crosshall St), is that it doesn't require an awful lot of imagination to picture a metro-style stop there. Unlike other ear-marked underground stations in Liverpool, this cutting is almost ready made for one. How I would love to have travelled to the JMU building on the train and stopped off at the Byrom St cutting everday! Maybe one day...
Change of subject here... Andrew Makinson, councillor of Smithdown and a member of the MPTE tells me that new stations cost in the region of £12m.
Does anyone else agree that unmanned stations (such as Burscough Junction) or halts would be a much better and cheaper alternative? Stations such as Central and Moorfields have electronic barriers, and the Wigan/Preston trains have ticket inspectors on at all times where you can buy your ticket. Surely a much better idea than paying millions for new station offices etc? Especially at inner city sites such as Tuebrook, where land is limited around the old station. A platform would surely suffice? And a wooden shelter. Naturally.
Congrats on a great thread, I've just caught up on it. Loved reading the discussions about the new lines :PDT11
The tunnel looks like it is below sea level at one point. Is that so? Is so, why?Quote:
Originally Posted by mikewturner
The Parliament St station is there virtually intact - well over time platforms have gone and some offices are still there. £12M is probably to cut out a new station in a tunnel like at Conway Park in Birkenhead.
The city centre rail loop I highlighted would be cheap for what it gives, as most of the tunnels are there and even two disused stations too, at Parliament St and Dingle. It is some cut and cover tunnels and some boring at joining points. As far as I know, Merseyrail have never come up with the loop idea - only me. Cheap for what it offers in re-generation.
Stations would need to be manned in Liverpool for security reasons. One the population gathers around the stations because of re-generation they will more than pay for themselves.
The build cost can be clawed back by a property value tax on homes sold around the stations where the stations being there have upped the value - the loop adds value.
Makinson simply said that a new station (such as one in Tuebrook or Anfield) would cost a minimum of £12m, he did not mention the underground. But you'd like to think all the fares they receive, as well as fines, should go some way in terms of the financing! I pay £4.50 return to Liverpool from where I live. Ridiculous.
The loop line you propose does make an awful lot of sense, but I'm finding the issue of 'cut and cover' quite vague - as if it's as simple as digging a hole in the ground and covering it like a roof on a house. Perhaps I should look into this more over the internet, but also, judging by some of the photos of the Dingle Tunnel, there looks like many logistical and physical problems to overcome. And linking all the tunnels together would require new tunnel building, as the Waterloo and Wapping tunnels run underneath the Northern Line, yes? I am confused as to the depths of all these tunnels.
The issue of unmanned stations.... I do not believe this would be a problem if there were major changes in the law and justice systems in this country. For example, massive increases in prison sentencing... armed police... but thats off-topic.
Going back to your loop line... my proposals for the future of the rail network actually involve more direct train services - I believe that trains running from major stations such as Maghull and Ormskirk (Ok, these aren't on the loop line but bear with me) should cut out minor stations such as Walton and Aughton Park (or even all of them) at peak times in order to get the commuters into Liverpool as quickly as possible, allowing the direct trains to get back to Ormskirk quickly to take in the next load. A mixture of indirect and direct services is what I'd like to see, and new stations, like some of the ones you propose on the loop line would actually only slow the journey times down.
I'm not sure if some European underground trains feel faster than Merseyrail's or whether are actually faster. They certainly feel faster, they seem to have much quicker acceleration. More stops would be useful if we had quicker trains, but Merseyrail's trains are slow accelerators.
If the trains do not increase in speed over the next 20 years, then Merseyrail should invest in more carriages, for more frequent journeys and longer trains (6-cars). I find it an insult paying £4.50 for a return when I can't even get a seat on the way home from Moorfields. They only run around two 6-car services at peak time. E.g, the 16.45 arrives 15 minutes before the big commuter rush, but still, the station is packed to the rafters and what pulls up? A 3-car train, bursting to the seams.
A property value tax on property when sold, that had had its value increase because of the stations is the way to finance. If it had been implemented on the Jubilee Line extension it would have paid for it 4 times over. If someone gains because of a public initiative then they should pay some back.Quote:
Originally Posted by jc_everton
Yep. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel Paris just cut and cover the boulevards - easy. Aigburth Rd is a boulevard. Cut and cover can go across parkland in Liverpool. Cut a ditch and insert concrete pre-cast curved tunnel walls, then cover.Quote:
The loop line you propose does make an awful lot of sense, but I'm finding the issue of 'cut and cover' quite vague - as if it's as simple as digging a hole in the ground and covering it like a roof on a house.
The Dingle Tunnel was originally proposed to be extended but never was. The station is there. Just a gantry at the Herculaneum Dock from the tunnel mouth to the existing line beneath all is needed.Quote:
Dingle Tunnel, there looks like many logistical and physical problems to overcome.
The Waterloo goes under the Northern Line. Some tunnels to interconnect tunnels, yes. Not a great amount as most of the system is in place.Quote:
And linking all the tunnels together would require new tunnel building, as the Waterloo and Wapping tunnels run underneath the Northern Line, yes? I am confused as to the depths of all these tunnels.
You are proposing a Paris Metro and the to suburbs rapid double-decker RER system. The Liverpool loop is to re-generate the city centre and inner city. It will be like the Circle Line in London. An existing city Centre loop an Outer City Centre Loop (my idea), and lines intersecting these loops that make good connections.Quote:
Going back to your loop line... my proposals for the future of the rail network actually involve more direct train services - I believe that trains running from major stations such as Maghull and Ormskirk (Ok, these aren't on the loop line but bear with me) should cut out minor stations such as Walton and Aughton Park (or even all of them) at peak times in order to get the commuters into Liverpool as quickly as possible, allowing the direct trains to get back to Ormskirk quickly to take in the next load. A mixture of indirect and direct services is what I'd like to see, and new stations, like some of the ones you propose on the loop line would actually only slow the journey times down.
I consider this loop vital to re-generate the city. It will attract investment around the stations.
The Dock Rd has to be abandoned as an urban motorway and cars discouraged forcing people onto the trains. The city must revert back to its human scale and be designed for people again.
BTW, no police with guns.
View these blasts from the past(1971)
Fabulous!!! Was that the last train through the Waterloo Tunnel?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirob
The Waterloo tunnel is only very short. From the Hodson St cutting to the Docks is the Waterloo Tunnel and from that point back to Edge Hill it is the Victoria Tunnel. All one tunnel with two names along its length.
I wonder why they done this?
wow these photos are so rare how you get them who is the copyright for them? what are we looking at exactly? is it the docks end of the waterloo tunnel its hard to reconise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirob
That is the dock end. It is 1971 and the tunnel closed in 1972, so not the last train, although it is clear the tunnel is not used much as there is lots of grass growing.Quote:
Originally Posted by oritelad
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirob
They look like the pictures from the so called 'we have steam trains under Liverpool still 'ready' incase all electricity is taken from our hands and the local council can escape'!...
HiQuote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
History of the line which includes date of last train to Riverside (not last train through the tunnel for which I dont have a date)
21/7/1845 Act L&M railway to Waterloo
1/8/1849 Opened Edge Hill to Waterloo for Goods only
27/7/1893 Act MDHB lines to Waterloo
12/6/1895 Opened Edge Hill to Riverside for passenger traffic
30/9/1963 Waterloo Goods Station closed
25/2/1971 Last passenger train to Riverside
1/3/1971 line closed to passenger traffic and out of use beyond Waterloo Road level crossing
12/2/1972 line closed beyond Waterloo yard
19/11/1972 line cut 558yds inside Victoria tunnel to leave headshunt at Edge Hill end.
Mike Turner
They are from my collection of local railway plans and photo's aquired from many sources over the years.Quote:
Originally Posted by jc_everton
Mike Turner
Just to add to the discussion about the cost of a station, I know that when the new mail centre in Leeds was being built - right next to the railway line - I asked why they had not provided a siding for the mail rail trains (as then were). I was told that Royal Mail had been quoted £6m for a turn out. Its not just a matter of sticking in a set of points, you have to redo the signalling for many miles in each direction. So if that was the price ten years ago, I hate to think what it would cost now.
John
In 1971 an industrial steam loco was restored in Princes Dock MD&HB shed. It was steamed and ran over all accessable dock lines, including an unofficial foray into Waterloo goods yard! Date is July 1971. The MD&HB diesel from Princes Dock used the tunnel shortly afterwards, transfering to the Brunswick.Quote:
Originally Posted by oritelad
None of these pictures have ever been seen before. The copyright is mine, but you can copy them
Great pic. Costco is now near this site. You can see the Graham Gratrix factory on the right with Logan Towers behind it.