Teen Gun Gangs

[marky]

This was on a couple of days ago, but is available to view online. The episode about the security industry includes Liverpool. I spotted Windsor street amongst the shots...the corner shop that fell down recently. Also a few shots of the Waterfront and Paradise St. developments.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/programmes/panorama/default.stm

[lindylou]

Thanks for the link Marky.

[jimmy]

Panorama: Young Gunmen will be on BBC One at 7.30pm on Monday 30 June 2008.

By Graham Johnson
BBC Panorama


Since last October, on and off, I've been closely following the Moss Edz, a 20-strong gang from the Page Moss neighbourhood in Huyton. Their leader Lee is 14.

The Moss Edz fight with their rivals called the Dovey Edz, from the neighbouring Dovecot area, just a few hundred yards away along Liverpool Road.

Asked why they fight each other, the boss of the Dovey Edz gang said: "Because they're scumbags. They rob our women. They rob anyone who has got anything - they will rob it."

The tit-for-tat violence also acts as a training school from which older gang members, aged between 17 and 21, graduate to street and mid-level drug dealing.

As they move up through the ranks, the superstars are recruited by Liverpool's notorious global drug cartels, with hubs in Amsterdam, Spain and Portugal.

Lee's parents split up eight years ago but his father still lives locally.

He says the young gangs have taken over Page Moss attacking the homes of those they dislike, and driving them out.

Lee's dad said: ''It's not our area, it's not the adults' area anymore, it's the kids' area. They say who can come in and who can't come in; if they don't like anyone's face they'll make sure he's gone.

"Their gang is everything. That's their family - that's their main family. It's their own little army. They have little generals and all like that.

"They'll back each other up to the death, right to the death - I know they will. I know they will, that's the way the kids are now."

During my time with the gang, 17-year-old Scott Elliot was jailed for nine years, for shooting up a house owned by the grandfather of the Dovey Edz gang boss.

In the same attack, another Moss Edz gang member, nicknamed Fuji, shot himself in the foot with his own shotgun, by accident, while he was threatening the younger brother of the Dovecot boss.

Fuji, like British soldiers in Afghanistan, carried an SA80 army-issue assault rifle. He kept it under his bed - along with a pump-action shotgun.

Police said the SA80 had recently been used to "spray up" a house in an unrelated shooting.

One night one of our team was invited to meet an anonymous gunman from the gang, at a pre-arranged place.

He pulled out a shotgun from his tracksuit bottoms and a pistol.

Brandishing the weapons, he said: "If the beef (trouble) come down here they get blasted, lad."

Lee's mum thinks her son will end up dead or in jail. Even Lee's 10-year-old brother hangs around with the gang and says he's held a gun.

The mother-of-five said: "You can just see it coming with them all. It's all coming to a head. There's little gangs here and little gangs there. They're not backing down - they're not backing down from each other.

"You don't think your kids could pick a gun up or a knife - you wouldn't think that they could do that. But I know for a fact they would.

"We can all point the finger at someone. I mean, do you think I like my son going out, picking a gun up and shooting someone else? I brought him up like that? I don't think so.

"People can look into this - people don't live in these estates, people don't see, you know, how we live. There are a lot of other agencies out there who could have seen this coming years ago. And could have done something years ago."

It's too late for Donna Smith. Her son's head was blown off with a shotgun.

Donna said: "They've took my baby off me and no mother should have to go through it, no mother at all should have to go through it."

Two years ago, her son, Liam "Smigger" Smith - a member of the Noggadogz gang from Norris Green - was visiting a friend at the local prison when a trivial row broke out with an inmate who was a rival gang member.

Liam "Smigger" Smith was visiting a friend in prison when he was shot

Insults were exchanged with the Croxteth Crew and within minutes, a gunman had been summoned using a smuggled mobile phone.

As he left, Liam was shot in the head at point blank range.

Donna said: "Why do they have to go round with guns…? I'm not saying Liam was innocent but he didn't deserve it. Nobody's child deserves to be killed like that."

That was the first and last proper interview Donna gave. She died shortly afterwards of natural causes.

The Noggadogz have been at war with their rivals, the Croxteth Crew, for four years.

They have access to a mind-boggling array of guns, they claim.

Everything from tripod-mounted general purpose machine guns, to nine "milly" pistols, revolvers and John Gottis (shotguns), right down to a home-made "one-shot", constructed from a converted wheel-brace.

They showed me pictures of these guns and spoke about them and how they were sourced in detail - including ballistic details such as the range and power of a .45 handgun.

As with most of the gangs in Liverpool, they take videos and pictures of their weapons on mobile phones, mix them up into a three-minute film using Video DJ phone-stored software, and post it on the internet, scored with a retro rap soundtrack such as 2Pac and Biggie Smalls.

The videos, which are also passed on widely in the playground, have several uses.

To show off, to cement gang identity and most importantly as a deterrent - as a way of showcasing hidden armouries to rival gangs in an attempt to reveal what's in store should they be foolish enough to come "looking for beef".

Panorama: Young Gunmen will be on BBC One on Monday 30 June 2008 at 1930 BST.

[Kev]

to think these kids are better off than we were 30 years ago, the thought of it all makes me sick.

child gunmen?

this shouldn't be shown at-all and the prgramme makers should be more responsible for bringing this a sense of acceptability to a wider audience who still frown upon this behaviour, you wouldn't think the government gave a sh!* though

[shytalk]

Oh dear, dear. How awful. We will have to make them sit on the naughty stool, or even worse,Horror of horrors, give them an ASBO!

[Kev]

...and why are such intimidating, menacing images being broadcast at 7.30pm?

someone get a grip

[Ged]

To read the apathy of the estranged parents is totally annoying. What is Hogan Howe and his crew doing to earn their corn? He pops up on a Roger Phillips phone-in special now and again to tell everyone how happy and proud he is that Liverpool's crime figures are down but often forgets to mention that they don't include gun/knife crime for which we'd well be up there not to mention what goes unreported because of reprisals.

[ChrisGeorge]

So sad to read all this. :( :PDT_Xtremez_42:

[lindylou]

No matter how much you love your home of Liverpool, it's stuff like this that makes you wish you had emigrated years ago. :(

ps,

I should say - UK and not just Liverpool.

[Kev]

I should say - UK and not just Liverpool.

yep indeedy. anyone with a bit of foresight should leave the UK now and probably have already done so.

the government arent bothered.

Give it another few years and these child gangs will grab the opportunity to expand, having a direct impact on us all further afield.

[lottie]

I think it's disgusting all these gangs. The do-gooders put it down to a bad backround, lack of parental control etc. My family are from a broken home and have had a really bad time growing up, but we are well adjusted. The ones in the family who do get into trouble don't blame their upbringing. I think if you are going to get involved in gangs you will, i think everyone has the ability to walk away, they just want to feel and look hard. Well i don't think they look hard, i think they look pathetic. I rmrmber in my youth (not too long ago lol) i had fights, but they were ONLY with the person concerned.

[ChrisGeorge]

yep indeedy. anyone with a bit of foresight should leave the UK now and probably have already done so.

the government arent bothered.

Give it another few year and these child gangs will grab the opportunity to expand, having a direct impact on us all further afield.


Hi Kev

What an awful prospect.

As you will appreciate, here in the US of A we are used to gun crime and to kids being killed by guns, as difficult as it is to take here as well.

You might find these couple of articles from the Baltimore Examiner to be illuminating:

Reaction to killings reinforces Federal Hill’s sense of community (http://www.examiner.com/a-1457608~Reaction_to_killings_reinforces_Federal_Hi ll_s_sense_of_community.html)

Guns and kids. Safety rules. (http://www.examiner.com/x-209-Baltimore-Health-Examiner)

The first story is about two recent fatal shootings in an upscale neighborhood and came to mind with your comment about "Give it another few years and these child gangs will grab the opportunity to expand, having a direct impact on us all further afield."

The second article about gun ownership is important because the Supreme Court by a one-vote margin has just declared a Washington, D.C. ban on gun ownership unlawful which many think will mean it opens the door to the gun lobby challenging local gun laws nationwide.

Chris

[shytalk]

No matter how much you love your home of Liverpool, it's stuff like this that makes you wish you had emigrated years ago. :(

ps,

I should say - UK and not just Liverpool.

I just watched it. Early in the show it did say it wasn't just Liverpool.
I think it should be shown, there are probably people who have lived in other areas all their lives who have never experienced this. I have said before that there should be a campaign to get rid of Hogan-Howe and replace him with someone who will stand up to the do-gooders. Why should he get a huge salary for failing?.

[John(Zappa)]

And to put Liverpool in more bad light...
TONIGHT CHANNEL 4 23:05
THE TRUTH ABOUT STREET WEAPONS.

More about the gangs of Liverpool focusing on knife and gun crime.

[taffy]

Panorama: Young Gunmen will be on BBC One at 7.30pm on Monday 30 June 2008.

By Graham Johnson
BBC Panorama


Since last October, on and off, I've been closely following the Moss Edz, a 20-strong gang from the Page Moss neighbourhood in Huyton. Their leader Lee is 14.

The Moss Edz fight with their rivals called the Dovey Edz, from the neighbouring Dovecot area, just a few hundred yards away along Liverpool Road.

Asked why they fight each other, the boss of the Dovey Edz gang said: "Because they're scumbags. They rob our women. They rob anyone who has got anything - they will rob it."

Panorama: Young Gunmen will be on BBC One on Monday 30 June 2008 at 1930 BST.

The news just after the programme put things into perspective. This stated that the 17th teenager this year had just been stabbed to death in London

[ItsaZappathing]

This is just a reminder really to let you know that Liverpool gangs are featured on next weeks show (Tuesday,Sky 1). I do know Ross was outside Altcourse Prison Aintree (regarding "Smigger")and very near my house too.

[Kev]

It's on tonight I believe. With the focus on Croxteth and Norris Green.

[Paddy]

Sincerely Kev I think this kind of television is very manipulative. Remember Panorama program last year when they went to Huyton and the kids played up to the gallery wearing their hoods up and producing guns. Then not long after a completely innocent shopkeeper was gunned down in broad daylight. Amplification of the gun culture does not help. I see the wretch that killed Rhys Jones has been beaten up inside, that?s his life now and with his inability to show remorse most people would just say so what. That boy never came out the womb holding a gun! The kids you see tonight are provided with weapons by older people there can be no doubt about that. To present the goings on as hardcase culture is effectively fueling the already serious situation a classic example of amplification.

[kevin]

Sincerely Kev I think this kind of television is very manipulative. Remember Panorama program last year when they went to Huyton and the kids played up to the gallery wearing their hoods up and producing guns. Then not long after a completely innocent shopkeeper was gunned down in broad daylight. Amplification of the gun culture does not help. I see the wretch that killed Rhys Jones has been beaten up inside, that?s his life now and with his inability to show remorse most people would just say so what. That boy never came out the womb holding a gun! The kids you see tonight are provided with weapons by older people there can be no doubt about that. To present the goings on as hardcase culture is effectively fueling the already serious situation a classic example of amplification.

It's all bollix anyway. If you need to carry a gun/knife, just how hard are you really? I've known a few genuinely hard men in my time, both when living in Liverpool and when at sea. Few of them were into gratuitous violence or the use of weapons.

[Ged]

What happened to good old fisticuffs which meant power, strength and agility.

I see Mercer has been slaughtered when put on a level playing field of no weapons.

[Paddy]

I grew up fighting on the Street but even then you could be done in. I was left for dead on Byle Street having been hit repeatedly over the head with a house brick. I caught the guy who did it and he yelped, not the point though he nearly took my life when he was with an older man. That?s the point kids will always fight amongst themselves the real horror is adults who exploit it. Guns are being sold to young kids and also drug pushers using moral standards is not that useful neither are shoot outs. They need to curb the gun trafficking. Growing up gun use was rare, now it is not yet common but it happens a lot. I don?t think that you can change it all immediately as the mentality is often created away from the immediate danger. At the anti gun and knife rally in Hyde Park a south London DJ made the point that Gangsta rap is no good and just creates tension, it doesn?t even create money and those who produce it often remain in the hood looking over their shoulders. The mentality is no different than ours when we were young everyone would say such and such is hard or so and so did this or that. Trouble with guns they make things so final. I was in a bar in Liverpool weighing some lads up they all had bomber jackets on and I thought to myself I wonder what they talk about and how they construct their view of the world, hard case talk never goes anywhere it usually all ends in a fight. The final analysis has to be that people are selling guns and they have no morality or care. There the ones the police need to stop. :hug:

[Ronijayne]

I have BBC Liverpool as my home page on my computer and I see THREE knife attacks on today. A handicapped woman who got stabbed and they killed her little dog too. Thinking it is supposed it was her dog who bit the little girl a few days ago. Even if it was, that these kids would do this is beyond belief.

[ItsaZappathing]

There was a shooting on the 5th.
The Kids on the Ross Kemp "gangs" show tonight talk about how easy it is to get hold of a gun within 5 minutes. :PDT_Xtremez_42:

[Broliv]

The show was pretty good. I saw my house on it too. I thought it a good intelligent discussion about the problems of not just our city but of the vast majority of cities across the UK

[ItsaZappathing]

It was sad to watch I thought. The kids reasons for the shooting was just stupid.They made it look worse than what it is. They didn't mention The Strand or the Landford/Sparra crew.? They also do alot of the shootings.
Ross Kemp is a good interviewer and he did well considering the nonsense he had to listen to.

[Broliv]

Aye, i agree with you there zaps.

[JMLE]

Allegedly :unibrow: they were struggling to get any substance into the programme and allegedly :unibrow: had to ask a group of lads that were hanging around outside The Lobster if they'd appear on camera for ?350 each. One of the lads that appeared as a member of the gang is a nephew of a lad here in work and isn't in a gang, but for ?350...

[fortinian]

Paddy is right, it's all to do with the adults. No child is born bad, society makes them that way.

[Paddy]

Society creates its own evils. The media will portray transgressors as innately evil when in fact they are dysfunctional and in capable of making normative moral judgements. Right and wrong as concepts depend on choice to an extent. Also the criteria of judgement is warped when it is manufactured by the media. If you have a kid you want your kid to be aware of the dangers in society. Yet if your kid takes sensationalism as a norm, as in tabloid reporting and media distortions attendant on deviant activity, then you have a problem. Why? well it is simple the very medium that distorts the truth keeps you and your peers in check.

[Paddy]

Something is really bugging me about all this. Last night I happened to see a bit of Ultimate Force I don?t watch much T.V. in fact I watch very little. What I saw was quite violent, and I do understand that people like macho tough guy culture. However my problem is this. You cannot serve two masters at once. Ross Kemp might have the best of intentions and I find him an affable person, but the problem at hand in Urban Areas is that kids have guns and also use knives. Legitimate violence is portrayed as a norm as in what happened in Iraq and the idea of good guys and bad guys is archetypal. To really get at the problem society needs firstly to recognize that violence is an everyday occurrence both legitimately and deviantly. And secondly that the means of violence as in gun crime has as it were upped the ante. So approaching the problem from premise that the contingency of gun availability has made serious injury and fatality more likely, the conclusion has to be getting the guns of the Street. Only then can you address the first problem and that is the occurrence of violence. The point being discourse is useless while the guns are out there. Number one reason is that once you have a gun you have left the mainstream and the idea and code of survival is subject to the potent culture that you become part of. This makes dialogue impossible. The police have to have the power to remove the guns, then the culture ends and discourse begins. I doubt you can tackle it any other way. So who will win the day? The cunning suppliers of weapons who by all accounts don?t make that much? Or society who can create the will to rid us of this.

[Ged]

I'd say that's very shellfish.

[kevin]

I'd say that's very shellfish.

So why were they wearing hoodies instead of shell suits?

[Broliv]

Which group of lads was he representing?

[Ged]

The parents of these lads must know who they are, one even had his token pit bull with him. The thing is, are the parents much better in many cases - not if that Dingle mother was anything to go by.

[JMLE]

Which group of lads was he representing?

He's from Croxteth and was the lad that the dog went for in the programme.

[Paddy]

They wouldn't let me watch I got sent to bed :ninja:

[Kev]

A TEENAGE gang member was paid ?50 by a ?fixer? to flaunt guns for a BBC programme, a court has heard.

The 17-year-old, who was filmed assembling a shotgun on the Panorama documentary, was allegedly given the cash by an intermediary who had been paid by producers.

Following the release of the half-hour Young Gunmen show, whispers surfaced that the team had paid teenagers to pose with guns for the camera.

Concerns were raised by Merseyside Chief Constable Bernard Hogan-Howe who wrote a letter to BBC Director General Mark Thompson.

The BBC moved to quash the rumours.

But yesterday Liverpool Crown Court heard the youth, who cannot be named, had been given the money by an intermediary to ?show off? the weapon.

Jason Smith, defending the teenager, said: ?The defendant contends he was not paid directly by Panorama producers, but was paid ?50 by an intermediary, a fixer, who had been paid by Panorama. continue (http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/regional-news/2009/01/10/bbc-paid-gang-member-to-flaunt-gun-court-is-told-64375-22661929/2/)

[ItsaZappathing]

Should we really be suprised that the kids where paid off ? I don't think so,all hype and it makes news.

[jenny_adams]

I agree with the above.The law on crime is too soft.