EXPERT designers plan to transform a rundown row of shops with Capital of Culture cash.

They have been told to breathe new life into an ageing parade of businesses in Lodge Lane, Toxteth.

Long-standing residents and shopkeepers were asked for their memories of the area so that local history can be incorporated into a string of new shop fronts.

City leaders hope it will bring more customers into an established shopping area in time for Capital of Culture in 2008.

They also believe a tidy-up may dis-courage vandalism and anti-social behaviour.

It follows criticism that too much culture cash is being pumped into the city centre and highbrow arts events.

The Culture Company wants to spend £100,000 on Lodge Lane, and the Shops Upfront scheme could get the go-ahead tomorrow.

It is based on a hugely successful project in Glasgow, which helped create jobs and a venue for cultural evenings and art displays in a deprived area.

As well as removing ugly rollershutters, graffiti and grime, artists will come up with some clever designs to mark Lodge Lane's historic past.

The street crosses the northern half of the former ancient Deer Park of Toxteth, a vast royal hunting ground laid down by King John in 1207.

The row of shops to be refurbished, numbers 157-171, was once a livery stable called Sefton Park Mews.

Project co-ordinator Sonia Bassey said: "Local people are vital to this project and we have invited them to bring the past to life by sharing their memories of this heritage- rich neighbourhood.

"It is expected the scheme will attract more people into the shops, boosting business and improving the area."

Lodge Lane businesses today praised the scheme, which should start in the next few months.

Newsagent Gamal Abdallah, 40, said: " Hopefully it should get more customers in and brighten up the street. It is about time they put money into the area."

Bashir Alwan, 26, co-ordinator of Lodge Lane-based Merseyside Yemeni Community Association, said: "Our design of Arab horses and camels should look good.

"It is going to draw people in and make them curious. Arabic-speaking people here will feel they have more in common with us."

Anna Webster, 29, co-ordinator of Liverpool Yemeni Arabic Club in Lodge Lane, said: "Young people have been involved in the project to demonstrate what they want to see. They have been using mosaics, arts and crafts."

Carol Hannell, 35, from The Local offlicence, said: "People will feel safer if it is brighter and cleaner out there, especially at night."

:)

So the Culture Co. have noticed that the boundaries of Liverpool extend beyond Lime St. and the Waterfront - too little, too late! :disgust:

I wish they'd get down to where I live !! :sad:

Twenty-five years after the notorious Toxteth riots, Tony Barrett asks how much things have really changed?

IN THE wake of the Toxteth riots Lord Scarman published his report from the official inquiry into the disturbances.

Among his findings was the following: "The riots were essentially an outburst of anger and resentment by young black people against the police. (But) the police do not create social deprivation; while good policing cannot remove the causes of social stress."

In clear language, Lord Scarman was telling the world that social injustice was the root cause of Toxteth's problems and the riots were aviolent reaction against the state.

The question is, 25 years on from the popular uprising, have the problems which caused the riots now been removed?

As far is the statistical and anecdotal evidence goes they most certainly have not.

Atrawl through census records and awhole raft of national reports into poverty suggests one thing - Toxteth is still being crushed under the weight of socio-economic inequality.

When it comes to unemployment, deprivation, health and education the area is always towards the bottom of the pile.

And, perhaps most importantly, those who live in Toxteth feel left behind and are still waiting for promises made aquarter of a century ago to be fulfilled.

Community leader Pauline Davis, from the Granby Residents Association, is among those who believe not enough has been done to improve Toxteth since the riots.

"You have to look at the business side and we still have no supermarkets, no banks and not enough jobs,"she says.

"There is no proper infrastructure, no proper planning and it has to be said that there have been few changes for the better in Toxteth over the last 25 years.

"You get tired of hearing promises that are never kept. The decline is continuing because there are too many basic things that have been overlooked.

"Unemployment is far too high. I'm unemployed myself and I received aletter from the job centre the other day telling me about ajob that might have been suitable for me at the Women's Hospital.

"I rang up about it but they were no longer taking applications because they had had so many.

"People want to work but the opportunities just don't exist.

"And this has an impact on everything, even people's health. Heart attacks and stress related conditions are rampant around here." more (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=17113443%26method=full%26siteid=50061% 26page=2%26headline=we%2dre%2dstill%2dliving%2dat% 2dthe%2dbottom%2dof%2dthe%2dpile-name_page.html)

* The average household income in Princes ward is £18,641 - 4,000 below the city average.

* Around 63% of households in the Princes Park area have an income lower than £10,000 a year.
Does that mean that the other 37% are struggling by on £33,350 a year - £10,500 above the city average?

I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. It's a smart but edgy area in parts. You do get wealthy people who like the large houses/luxury apartments and short commuting distances to the city centre, as well as the despondently poor crammed into small houses in the side streets.

They do this every five years or so. I remember the last time; they dragged Heseltine up for an interview with the Echo. They devoted an entire week to it, basically saying **** all has improved in the time since.

I find driving to work the beauty of the area in some parts breathtaking, the buildings, the area around Princess Park for example. The regeneration needs to happen much quicker, some of the buildings have been empty and derelict for many many years, but then again some parts of Garston Under The Bridge have been too :rolleyes:

Toxteth's the ghetto!:PDT_Xtremez_12:

There are some nice parts around Toxteth - or LIVERPOOL 8 as we always knew it.

We NEVER called it Toxteth. The people who lived there for generations never did. It was always just Liverpool 8.

The full title of Toxteth seemed to catch on after the news reports of the riots refering to the area name.
Now, sometimes, you will hear residents refering to it as 'Tocky' ..

Anyway, there are some lovely big houses there, Princes Boulevard could be really classy if it was smartened up. Princes Park, Devonshire rd, Belvidere, etc, all nice. Of course, there is the Canning area - Husskison, Catherine, Percy, Hope st, Hope place, Gambia, etc, lovely.

SHOP owners in Toxteth have been working with professional artists to give their premises a new look.

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/icliverpool/jun2006/2/3/204AEE98-F2E9-0E71-226D4C8C59BCA376.jpg

In an effort to fight off the vandals, creative and colourful artwork has been painted on the shop fronts.

The roller shutters, graffiti and grime have been stripped away and replaced with new and trendy designs.

A similar scheme has been carried out in Glasgow and Liverpool Culture Company now hopes the success in Scotland can be repeated on Merseyside.

The project, Shops Upfront, is funded with European money and this has helped to transform eight properties in Lodge Lane.

Alicia Smith, project manager at the Liverpool Culture Company, said: "The shops look amazing and it's a real surprise to see the difference between the before and after pictures."

Partners in the Shops Upfront project include the Liverpool Culture Company, Liverpool council's regeneration team and South Central Neighbourhood Management team, together with Agency Services and the Liverpool Biennial.

http://static.flickr.com/77/166553476_c4494d1457.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/166553476/)
Shop front restored without the artwork.

The Ghetto!

Was up homie?:PDT_Aliboronz_24:

OMG Max. You're so white! :PDT_Piratz_26:

:Colorz_Grey_PDT_16:

Increase in poverty could reignite riots (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=17329039%26method=full%26siteid=50061% 26headline=increase%2din%2dpoverty%2dcould%2dreign ite%2driots-name_page.html)

Could Toxteth riots be repeated in 2006? (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=17329019%26method=full%26siteid=50061% 26headline=could%2dtoxteth%2driots%2dbe%2drepeated %2din%2d2006%2d-name_page.html)

Discuss the Riots here.

My parents lived around there at the time of them.

You could go through certain roots as the streets like Lodge Lane were blocked off and loads of looting. Dad said people were offering free tv's though but he never took one!:PDT_Aliboronz_24:

Old buildings that were no longer there either were burned down!

I don't know, it's possible it could happen again. Wasn't part of the riots started because of Racism though and not just high prices?

Toxteth has had some regeneration but it's still crap around there. Especially as Dingles next to it.

"In 1981 the trigger for the riots was the arrest of local youth Leroy Cooper on police assault charges. He was arrested by police who had followed a teenage motorcyclist into

Granby Street - then Toxteth's "main street" - and a hostile crowd gathered to separate him from the police.


Granby St was never and is not the "mains street" of Toxteth. That is Park Road quite a way from Granby Street.


The next day - July 4 - there was a heavy police presence in the area because of a tip-off that violence would erupt.

At 5.30pm, a group of youths in Upper Parliament Street started to stone police officers. It was the curtain raiser for a night of violence and fear, and a further nine days of unrest.


Riots had already erupted in Brixton. The Toxteth riots initially were seen as copy cat as many riots simultaneously erupted all over the UK: Manchester, Birmingham and even High Wycombe.

The ferocity in Liverpool was so severe it shocked the government and they realised it was not just summer madness. It shocked them so much they appointed a minister for Merseyside - Hesseltine.

The Toxteth riots were only partially in Toxteth with much of them in neighbouring Granby.

My parents lived around there at the time of them.

You could go through certain roots as the streets like Lodge Lane were blocked off and loads of looting. Dad said people were offering free tv's though but he never took one!:PDT_Aliboronz_24:

Old buildings that were no longer there either were burned down!

I don't know, it's possible it could happen again. Wasn't part of the riots started because of Racism though and not just high prices?

Toxteth has had some regeneration but it's still crap around there. Especially as Dingles next to it.

The district the riots were in is Granby. Penny Lane is actually in Toxteth too.

The riots were initially thought a race riot but only one third of the rioters were black or coloured. It was an anti-police/poverty riot. The police stopped it by shooting one of the rioters. They used CS gas shot gun cartridges and aimed them directly at the rioters. These cartridges were meant for siege situations, to fire into rooms where they would hit the wall and release the CS gas. The police “acted stupid” and used these cartridges to shoot the rioters. The cartridge boxes clearly stated “do not use in a riot situation”. They said they didn’t know – as if. They blasted out the chest of one kid. They ran over and killed one crippled kid who had nothing to do with the riots. He was too slow to get away.

Nice police force we have.

Increase in poverty could reignite riots (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=17329039%26method=full%26siteid=50061% 26headline=increase%2din%2dpoverty%2dcould%2dreign ite%2driots-name_page.html)

Could Toxteth riots be repeated in 2006? (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=17329019%26method=full%26siteid=50061% 26headline=could%2dtoxteth%2driots%2dbe%2drepeated %2din%2d2006%2d-name_page.html)

Waht do you think about headlines like this, justified?


Yes, in one word. and what do YOU think about the complete invisibilty of the North end in 2007/2008

The district the riots were in is Granby. Penny Lane is actually in Toxteth too.

The riots were initially thought a race riot but only one third of the rioters were black or coloured. It was an anti-police/poverty riot. The police stopped it by shooting one of the rioters. They used CS gas shot gun cartridges and aimed them directly at the rioters. These cartridges were meant for siege situations, to fire into rooms where they would hit the wall and release the CS gas. The police “acted stupid” and used these cartridges to shoot the rioters. The cartridge boxes cleared stated “do not use in a riot situation”. They said they didn’t know – as if. They blasted out the chest of one kid. They ran over and killed one crippled kid who had nothing to do with the riots. He was too slow to get away.

Nice police force we have.


Don't tell us you knew, or are related to a few 'eads too.. I have my suss radar focused on you lar :gossip:

The district the riots were in is Granby. Penny Lane is actually in Toxteth too.

Penny lane is Wavertree surely?

Penny Lane is Mossley Hill L18.

Penny lane is Wavertree surely?

No. It forms the border.

http://www.toxteth.net/maps/liverpool/images/big_toxteth_mapbw_3x11.gif

Thats Toxteth.nets map and they don't even have Penny Listed.

Penny Lane is only inbetween Smithdown and Greenbank Road.

L18 is Mossley Hill, Toxteh is L8.

http://www.bwpics.co.uk/gallery/liverpoolpics/riotcard.jpeg

A locally-produced satirical postcard of the period

http://www.bwpics.co.uk/gallery/liverpoolpics/riotcard.jpeg

A locally-produced satirical postcard of the period


I want that post card.

I wish I was born around then and old enough so a looter would of gave me a free Tv.:PDT_Aliboronz_24:

25 years on and £400m spent - and Toxteth is still blighted by poverty
Jul 4 2006
By Nick Coligan, Liverpool Echo

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/icliverpool/jul2006/2/4/3964B156-9E60-9D6C-4B743EC6F31F5C07.jpg

MORE than £400m has been spent trying to transform Toxteth since the riots 25 years ago with another £130m earmarked for the near future.

But residents still question whether after a quarter of a century anything more than a cosmetic difference has been made to the area.

More (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=17330444%26method=full%26siteid=50061% 26headline=25%2dyears%2don%2dand%2d%2dpound%2d400m %2dspent%2d%2d%2dand%2dtoxteth%2dis%2dstill%2dblig hted%2dby%2dpoverty-name_page.html)...

Thats Toxteth.nets map and they don't even have Penny Listed.

Penny Lane is only inbetween Smithdown and Greenbank Road.

L18 is Mossley Hill, Toxteh is L8.

L8? Is it? L8, L17, L15 and L18 all make up Toxteth. Toxteth.net give the actual boundaries of Toxteth. Penny Lane forms the border at the top and half way down is full inside Toxteth both sides.

Dingle is in Toxteth, so is Granby, St. Micheals, Sefton Park, Princes, & Greenbank Parks, and parts of Otterspool.

I want that post card.

I wish I was born around then and old enough so a looter would of gave me a free Tv.:PDT_Aliboronz_24:

I watched the riots. At the top of Parli there was a milk place and a car hire next to each other. They used the milk bottles and the petrol from the car hire garage to make petrol bombs and reined then down on the police who formed a line across Parli. They gradually pushed the police back down Parli bit by bit. The were outwitting the police They used the hire cars to run at the police lines by putting bricks on the accelerators and jumping out the cars way before hand. The police scattered like flies each time a driverless car screeched down at them.

They also used a JCB to attack the police too. They use it as a tank with the petrol bombers behind who would emerge and reign down the bombs on the police. Then the JCB would pull back for another run. They used the JCB to knock down parts of the buildings and then ran it at the police vehicles with jib swinging. Very effective indeed.

The police would bang their riot shield to make a noise to frighten the rioters (or army by now). They responded by banging on the ground or bits of metal together to frighten the police.

The occasional hand to hand fighting meant a policeman was beaten badly – I never saw it the other way around. The police wisely would not venture out of their lines. These kids were fearless and had it in for the cops. The police could not push the rioters back with vehicles as the road was littered with wrecks and buildings burning either side.

On one of the last nights, bit by bit they pushed the police back down Parli until they reached Catharine Street. If they pushed the police down Catherine Street they were then in the city centre. Then the guns were used against them.

Only Liverpool police were at the front line with the reserves from other forces behind them in case they were broken. Police from other forces were mainly patrolling the areas the Liverpool police could not cover.

The never burnt the Post Office or unemployment office on Parli/Princes Road. They had to cash their Giros.

More damage was done in those nights to Liverpool 8 than what Hitler did in 6 years

I must admit I was delighted to see the *******s take a hammering.

Twenty-five years on - Toxteth riots remembered
Jul 5 2006
Daily Post

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/icliverpool/jul2006/3/9/3E050A6A-9DFC-FE20-22074D490BDD2E8D.jpg

Mike Chapple hears personal accounts from two photographers whose images of the Toxteth riots went round the world 25 years ago.

More (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=17333527%26method=full%26siteid=50061% 26headline=twenty%2dfive%2dyears%2don%2d%2d%2dtoxt eth%2driots%2dremembered-name_page.html)...

I hope Toxteth people can see us as friends
Jul 5 2006
Daily Post

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/icliverpool/jul2006/1/7/3DF9D6EB-B331-49BA-692B0CB9344E3DA6.jpg

Merseyside's Chief Constable Bernard Hogan-Howe took to the streets of Toxteth last night, 25 years on from the riots. Alan Weston and Mike Chapple report.

More (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=17333514%26method=full%26siteid=50061% 26headline=i%2dhope%2dtoxteth%2dpeople%2dcan%2dsee %2dus%2das%2dfriends-name_page.html)...

L8? Is it? L8, L17, L15 and L18 all make up Toxteth. Toxteth.net give the actual boundaries of Toxteth. Penny Lane forms the border at the top and half way down is full inside Toxteth both sides.

Dingle is in Toxteth, so is Granby, St. Micheals, Sefton Park, Princes, & Greenbank Parks, and parts of Otterspool.

L15 is Wavertree where I live.

Greenbank is Mossley Hill. Sefton is part Aigburth and part Mossley Hill.

St Micheals Aigburth.

L15 is Wavertree where I live.

Greenbank is Mossley Hill. Sefton is part Aigburth and part Mossley Hill.

St Micheals Aigburth.

Totally and utterly wrong. See:
http://www.toxteth.net

Paul mapped out the boundaries of Toxteth from the ancient maps - he walked it. His map shows the complete and correct boundary of Toxteth. He corrected mistakes in the boundary too. Yes, and parts of "Mossley Hill" are in Toxteth.

I remember rioting kicking off in St Paul's in Bristol well before Toxteth. I was around at the time and was actually "rioted in" to a pub in Park Road and could not get out until the early hours of the morning (I was gutted). The rioting did spread to other areas of Liverpool 8 (as we all called it then) not just Granby. The out-of-town police came with a bit of an attitude and were banging riot shields and making racist comments. It was not a happy time but to be honest we were all cheesed off anyway in 1981 - I had been unemployed for a year by that time (yes, I know - with all my talent). I think it was a symptom of a more deep-seated discontent - not just among the black community. If people have nothing to lose - no stake in their community - then they will not think-twice about destroying it. I heard it compared to "distressed birds detroying their own nests" by some poncey southern journo. Young black and mixed race lads that I knew suffered from being labeled a rioter by the police (even if they weren't). A couple of lads I knew were wrongfully arrested coming out of a pub and later got compensation from the police - there was quite a bit of panic about.

But - we did get the lovely Garden Festival out of it.!!!:PDT_Aliboronz_11:

That's correct Sweetpatooti.

I knew a lot of black friends, and it's true that the black lads were often unfairly targeted by police.

The riots were not just about that tho' - 'cos lots of white people were involved too. (I think it was mostly the whites who did the looting - thay were coming down from other areas to grab what they could)

I can remember being in a house on the Falkner estate (not there now) ... and we all had to sit with the lights out while a mob was milling about outside.
We could hear glass smashing and shouting ... it was pretty scary. :shock:
We were scared that the front windows were going to come in on us.

I stayed away from L8 afterwards until it was all over !! Ha!

I remember seeing the devastation and the aftermath. Half of Lodge lane was gone ! The Rialto was a smouldering heap.
I had a friend who lived off Lodge lane at that time. She had been away on holiday abroad when the riot took place and she didn't know anything about it. When she returned from her hols she got the shock of her life to find the lane looking like a war zone !!!

Yes you're right - people were coming into Liverpool 8 on busses from other areas to check out what was going on. The two lads who were arrested were actually white. It was like the ripples in a pond and spread out with copycat riots in other parts of the city. BUT it was not the first in the country and I think it has not shaken off the stigma in the same way as St Pauls in Bristol and Brixton has - Toxteth = riots to most people inside and outside of Liverpool. I do not live there now, but my chap's family do and I have still got lots of mates there.

A point to note - these things kick off in the summer when it is hot - not many riots in the snow in winter - in fact once the weather broke and it started raining the rioting fizzled out. Damage done by then though.

If I remember correctly, the rioting spread outwards - it spread part of the way down Smithdown rd. Also, sporadic rioting broke out in areas like Croxteth, Stockbridge Village (Cantril Farm, as it was known then) - and I can't recall which other districts - but there were definately other incidents.

Where I live in Anfield, nothing happened here that I know of. Anfield didn't have any of the problems then that it has today.
If the rioting took place now, I'm sure most of the Scalls around here would jump on the bandwagon. :rolleyes:

I remember rioting kicking off in St Paul's in Bristol well before Toxteth. I was around at the time and was actually "rioted in" to a pub in Park Road and could not get out until the early hours of the morning (I was gutted). The rioting did spread to other areas of Liverpool 8 (as we all called it then) not just Granby. The out-of-town police came with a bit of an attitude and were banging riot shields and making racist comments.

They soon dropped the attitude when they saw what was dished out to the Liverpool police. A friend of mine from Newcastle had a brother who was in charge of the Newcastle police sent over. They were expecting a hostile reception, but were shocked when people were clapping them on the way in. They soon realised the problem was the Liverpool police and would not go on the front line in Parli with them. They did tell other police forces to behave themselves so as not to get the population against them. People knew them because of the slightly different uniforms and would offer them tea, but not to the Liverpool police.

That's interesting Waterways.

That's interesting Waterways.

This copper from Newcastle told his brother that "the Geordies were too stupid to riot". There were no riots in the North East, which was more deprived than Liverpool. He said "look what the government is doing for them now". After the government promised to put money into Toxteth (well Liverpool 8 before the TV said it was Toxteth - people will copy anything if it is on the telly).

Newcastle was more deprived than Liverpool in 1981 ?


Liverpool had Police bussed in from all over the North, not just Geordieland. And Toxteth was not a 'Black Riot'.

Suss laws..heheh!!

Newcastle was more deprived than Liverpool in 1981 ?


Yep. If there was any differnce there wasn't much.


Liverpool had Police bussed in from all over the North, not just Geordieland. And Toxteth was not a 'Black Riot'.
Suss laws..heheh!!

They came from everywhere. Some were reluctant to send police fearing their own towns and cities would blow up too.

Yep. If there was any differnce there wasn't much.

Ok you claimed it... now provide us with the stats and facts.



They came from everywhere. Some were reluctant to send police fearing their own towns and cities would blow up too.

No they came from the north of England... Birmingham and many other cities and towns had their own problems to keep a lid on, remember ?

Ok you claimed it... now provide us with the stats and facts.


As you are psuhing the point and appear to know it all, then you giev us them.


No they came from the north of England... Birmingham and many other cities and towns had their own problems to keep a lid on, remember ?


That is what I said.

MORE than 100 would-be entrepreneurs have benefited from a scheme in Toxteth to help get new businesses off the ground.

BizFizz was set up two years ago under the supervision of urban regeneration charity, the Civic Trust. It is based in the Toxteth TV centre, which offers TV and video production training for young people.

It employed a business coach, Stephan Nichols, to attempt to stimulate economic development from the bottom up by aiding the transformation of good business ideas into viable enterprises.

This week, as Toxteth marked the 25 years since the riots left the area devastated, a special event to celebrate the success of the project was held at the Kuumba Imani Millennium in Princes Avenue.

Now several of the people who have built successful businesses after receiving help want to give something back by offering their own support and expertise to the project. http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/design/clear.gif

Ian Harvey, from the Civic Trust in Liverpool, said: "People living in areas like Toxteth face major barriers to starting their own business so Stephan will try to address the individual needs of each client and tailor the help accordingly.

"What he does for one client might be completely different to what he does for another."

Underpinning Mr Nichol's role is a board of established business people who attempt to help the would-be entrepreneurs take their ideas onto the next level.

There are still major challenges faced by those who live and work in the area, 25 years on since the riots. Socio-economic inequality is still a significant barrier to upward mobilty among the local population.

Following the riots Liverpool and Toxteth, in particular, became the test-bed for a series of initiatives that transformed the face of urban Britain. However when it comes to unemployment, deprivation, health and education Toxteth is still towards the bottom of the deprivation index.

Initial funding for BizFizz will soon end but those behind the project hope new money can be found quickly.

Paul Squires, BizFizz manager at the Civic Trust said: "BizFizz is an entirely local initiative designed to stimulate economic development by aiding good business ideas into viable enterprises."

tonymcdonough@dailypost.co.uk

Waterways you made a claim with your fingers, now back it up with your mouth.

And NO you did'nt, you said "they came from everywhere" ..


:Colorz_Grey_PDT_24:

Totally and utterly wrong. See:
http://www.toxteth.net

Paul mapped out the boundaries of Toxteth from the ancient maps - he walked it. His map shows the complete and correct boundary of Toxteth. He corrected mistakes in the boundary too. Yes, and parts of "Mossley Hill" are in Toxteth.

No, only anything thats L8 is Toxteth.:Colorz_Grey_PDT_24:

Paul's maps aren't done very well, hard to find the locations.

Leroy Cooper, Artist and Photographer

Photographs of Liverpool and artwork by the man whose arrest sparked the Toxteth riots.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/f/t.gifhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/f/t.gif
http://www.bbc.co.uk/f/t.gifOn 3rd July 1981 the arrest of Leroy Cooper on Selborne Street brought out an angry crowd of locals.

In the fracas that followed three police officers were injured. The following night full scale rioting broke out in Toxteth. In the days that followed hundreds of police officers were injured and CS gas was deployed for the first time on mainland Britain.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/content/images/2006/07/06/leroy_photos_body02_150x223.jpg
Gun Play (c) Leroy Cooper

Leroy Cooper admits that after his arrest it would have been easy for him to become just another local thug, or to follow the same path in to criminality as Curtis Warren. He says that given the economic and social situation in Liverpool at the time he could have easily have chosen to follow this road. Instead he was inspired to pursue a career in the arts.

He appeared as a performance poet on several TV documentaries and dabbled in DJ-ing. As a graffiti artist he took to painting street signs in Toxteth red, yellow and green, the colour of Rastafarian culture. He called it an Urban Installation.

View Leroy Coopers Photos (http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/content/image_galleries/leroy_cooper_photo_gallery.shtml) >

He also took photographs. Lots of them. For twenty two years Leroy Cooper has taken pictures of Liverpool as well as travelling abroad on what he calls ‘photographic missions’ to other cities.

View Leory Coopers Art (http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/content/image_galleries/leroy_cooper_art_gallery.shtml) >

His collection now numbers over 150,000 images and offers a glimpse of his life in Liverpool since the mid 1980’s.

Leroy’s photographs of life through the 1980’s and 90’s chronicle what he calls ‘A Secret Life of Liverpool’.

No, only anything thats L8 is Toxteth.:Colorz_Grey_PDT_24:

Paul's maps aren't done very well, hard to find the locations.

Nope. Toxeth is anything inside the ancient Toxteth Park. The maps are excellent. They are interactive. Click on the arrows and pictures come up. Click on the green borders and the next map cell comes up.

The exact boudary is there.

Cash crisis threat to race unit
Jul 6 2006
TWENTY FIVE YEARS ON - TOXTETH RIOTS REMEMBERED: Race relations are still delicate, as Mike Chapple discovers
Daily Post

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/icliverpool/jul2006/4/4/4315F5C4-AAB8-AFF4-9657502DB170333C.jpg

A FRONTLINE organisation tackling racial problems in Liverpool faces collapse due to a lack of funding.

Formed in the aftermath of the Stephen Lawrence Inquiry, the Merseyside Racial Harassment Prevention Unit says a lack of financial support, especially from the local authorities and police who depend on its services, has led to the situation.

Edward Murphy, director of the charity Liverpool Network for Change which oversees the unit's work, claims the crisis is bitterly ironic considering it coincides with one of the worst periods for Liverpool's black and ethnic communities since the disturbances in Toxteth.

More (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=17338563%26method=full%26siteid=50061% 26headline=cash%2dcrisis%2dthreat%2dto%2drace%2dun it-name_page.html)...

Nope. Toxeth is anything inside the ancient Toxteth Park. The maps are excellent. They are interactive. Click on the arrows and pictures come up. Click on the green borders and the next map cell comes up.

The exact boudary is there.

His map index is too small to find the area quickly.

His maps have something called Toxteth dock now?

Toxteth is only L8 now.

His map index is too small to find the area quickly.


I don't find any problems with it.


His maps have something called Toxteth dock now?


Yep. The map is from 1906. Toxteth Dock still exists if you excavate. The name Toxteth Dock still exists. There has been two Toxteth Docks - all this is to go into the site. He also goes into Toxteth history - Toxteth has largely changed twice in my lifetime and is still changing. The site is far from complete and will be 10 times what it is now when fully in place and will always be changing and being added to as time moves on. If you have something constructive to give, a piece on history, photos (not personal snaps of people, but could be, say a street party for say the 1966 world cup win) and the likes, Paul will be grateful.

If you don't like parts of the site, tell Paul as at times he is too close to it to see aspects that may confuse others. If you can add value and be constructive instead of whinging then contribute. You will be most welcome.

I have contributed much to it and corrected many inaccuracies. There is much work to do on the dock and shipbuilding history of Toxteth (a number of American Confederate raiders were built in Toxteth, and the last lowering of the Confederate flag was mid river between Toxteth and Tranmere by CSS Shenandoah surrendering to HMS Donegal. All this is world history not just local. Have a look at the piece on the Mersey Forge and the Horsfall Gun.

Toxteth.net is the most comprehensive web site on any district of any town or city in the world, and it will be far larger than what it is.


Toxteth is only L8 now.


In your world yes.

No in the modern world.:Colorz_Grey_PDT_24:

No in the modern world.:Colorz_Grey_PDT_24:

You are from Wavetree and what you thought was a part of Wavertree is actually Toxteth. In fact the city has signs saying Toxteth at various point (one is half way down Penny Lane), which are about right in most cases. Toxteth is well Toxteth. Either it is or it isn't - in your mind the borders are elastic to suit your perception. See toxeth.net for the border - they are the red dotted lines on the map.

I am dropping then point with you as you a lost case.

You are from Wavetree and why you thought was Wavertree is actually Toxteth. In fact the city has signs saying Toxteth at various point (one is half way down Penny Lane), which are about right in most cases. Toxteth is well Toxteth. Either it is or it isn't - in your mind the borders are elastic to suit your perception. See toxeth.net for the border - they are the red dotted lines on the map.

I am dropping then point with you as you a lost case.

In these Modern times, only anything thats L8 is Toxteth.

One part of the map thinks Smithdown and some of L7 is.

It borders my street as Toxteth too, no way. My area is no doubt Wavertree.

I am never a lost case.People use that as an excuse when someone refuses to agree with them.:Colorz_Grey_PDT_24:

Most of the pubs on there are Wavertree.

I used to live off Beaumont St at the time of the riots,
we used to sneak out of the house & watch the riots or watch it from my bedroom window if we got caught
I remember my dad & mum coming back home after a night out covered in blood they had been in a taxi but the driver would only go as far as Grove St when they got out a gang jumped the driver almost killing him my dad then helped him & managed to get him to safety
I also remember going to see a fire at myrtle gardens when a gang pushed cars at the firemen who tried to escape by climbing over the corrigated iron surrounding the flats

Mandy

Communities at the centre of new Toxteth
Jul 7 2006
Continuing our week-long series on the 25th anniversary of the Toxteth Riots, David Higgerson meets one of the men tasked with turning the area around
Daily Post

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/icliverpool/jul2006/7/0/483E5335-C1DF-576C-54EEF8CF6AEFEA06.jpg

ASK a regeneration expert in Manchester whether the bomb which ripped through the city in 1996 turned out to a be a turning point, and they wince.

Many want to say - and indeed some do - but it goes against the grain to say acts of terrorism can be good for the place in which they were planted.

So asking Max Steinberg, a Liverpudlian through and through, whether, in hindsight, the Toxteth riots in 1981 had any positive effect for the city, and he's in a similar position.

Yet his answer is surprisingly candid: "What I think it showed was that there were real problems which needed to be addressed."

"Those problems manifested themselves in a certain way, which the Government of the time had to do something about."

More (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=17343508%26method=full%26siteid=50061% 26headline=communities%2dat%2dthe%2dcentre%2dof%2d new%2dtoxteth-name_page.html)...

I used to live off Beaumont St at the time of the riots,
we used to sneak out of the house & watch the riots or watch it from my bedroom window if we got caught
I remember my dad & mum coming back home after a night out covered in blood they had been in a taxi but the driver would only go as far as Grove St when they got out a gang jumped the driver almost killing him my dad then helped him & managed to get him to safety
I also remember going to see a fire at myrtle gardens when a gang pushed cars at the firemen who tried to escape by climbing over the corrigated iron surrounding the flats

Mandy



Oooof!!! .. :shock:

"Those problems manifested themselves in a certain way, which the Government of the time had to do something about."



He ain't kidding is he ?

does "waterways" happen to be the same person as John MK that was on the Skyscraper forum? i remember him instigating that same toxteth boundary argument on there?

does "waterways" happen to be the same person as John MK that was on the Skyscraper forum? i remember him instigating that same toxteth boundary argument on there?

Yes, I think so.

Where has the money gone?
Jul 8 2006
ENDING our week of coverage marking the 25th anniversary of the Toxteth riots, City Editor Larry Neild offers a personal perspective on the efforts to regenerate the area
Daily Post

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/icliverpool/jul2006/4/8/388D7A95-F482-6D5E-7CBC20CE14A79EA2.jpg

SINCE the Toxteth Riots of 1981 more than £400m has been poured into the Liverpool 8 area in regeneration and renewal schemes.

In real terms, that would equate to the amount of money Grosvenor is investing in the heart of the city centre, creating 1.5m square feet of shops, leisure facilities, hotels, parkland, designed by some of the world's leading architects.

It poses the question: "Has Toxteth been short changed?"

More (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=17358846%26method=full%26siteid=50061% 26headline=where%2dhas%2dthe%2dmoney%2dgone%2d-name_page.html)...

Any pictures of this Granby Triangle design?

I was around Lodge Lane last week, and i have to say, more needs to be done apart from re-invent shutters. The area is full of bare patches of waste land FGS! Once a grand victorian throughfare, it is now degraded and miserable. The 60's estates that border onto it do little for the area too.

I wish that the city would try and re-build our throughfares so that they resemble what they were like back in their hey-day. I saw that something is being done on Kensington but most of that is just a clean up rather than a re-build.

We need to take a look at what these great victorian throughfares can offer. Most of these buildings are full of architectural spender, especially where windows and guttering is concerned and where there are gaps, we should fill them in with buildings that are in keeping with their surrounds. Not some plain brick building or some tacky glass and metal structure. The latter may look great in the CBD, but in the suburbs and surrounded by terraces, they look horrible!

Hope I make sense!

The same around Anfield. Oakfield rd, Breck rd, Townsend lane. All in a terrible state of decline.

Yes. Walton Breck Road still has a side of a commercial building patched up with some sort of rippled material. It's been like that for more than a year now!

http://static.flickr.com/79/251265923_8cab29391e.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/251265923/)

http://static.flickr.com/91/251265690_ca49826094.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/251265690/)

http://static.flickr.com/112/251266217_4f77f535d0.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/251266217/)

http://static.flickr.com/82/251266076_bf65db4475.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/251266076/)

There is sadly little else worth snappng on Lodge Lane, a project like this seem to be confined to the Sefton Park end.

http://static.flickr.com/110/251266470_de5fdd19f9.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/251266470/)

MERSEYSIDE’S massive housing renewal scheme has seen the first families move into their new homes.

The Clevedon Park development in Toxteth is the first of the government’s housing market renewal projects to hand over keys to new residents.

Clevedon Park, off Byles Street, provides 107 new homes, including shared ownership schemes where people can buy up to 75% of the property.

Of the 45 homes available for outright sale, almost all have gone to families already living in the area.

Among the first to move in were Mary and Steven Graham, who had previously lived in Kinmel Street in the Welsh Streets.

They bought a three-bedroom property at Clevedon Park to share with children Andrew and Gillian, dog Rolo and Fly the rabbit.

Mrs Graham said: “I was keen to stay in this area having spent the last 26 years in Kinmel Street and it was important to keep my children in their current schools.

“It is also great that we kept the community together as so many of my friends from the Welsh Streets have moved to this development and my children's friends are all still here.

“My brother has also bought a new house at Clevedon Park.”
The development was a partnership between Gleeson Homes, Liverpool city council, the Housing Corporation and NewHeartlands.

Mrs Graham said: “We never had a back garden when we lived in Kinmel Street, so we’re looking forward to next summer when we can have a barbecue.”

Another new resident is Marie Harris, who has come home by moving to Clevedon Park.

She said: “I lived in Gwydir Street in the Welsh Streets for 27 years and, knowing I was born and raised in Byles Street, my husband surprised me by reserving a new home at Clevedon Park.

“I am back on the street where I grew up and it is great that so many of my friends have moved with me.

“I am also looking forward to having a driveway and a garden in an area I was keen to stay in.”

Janet Sheridan, Gleeson sales director, added: “Clevedon Park was designed with the aim of providing good quality, well designed and affordable housing for local people wanting to stay in the area.

“The fact that nearly all our sales were to people from this area is particularly pleasing proving that an existing community can be kept together.”

All the properties at Clevedon Park have now been reserved and Gleeson will soon be starting work on its next new development in Toxteth, located off Northumberland Street.

http://static.flickr.com/79/251265923_8cab29391e.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/251265923/)

http://static.flickr.com/91/251265690_ca49826094.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/251265690/)

http://static.flickr.com/112/251266217_4f77f535d0.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/251266217/)

http://static.flickr.com/82/251266076_bf65db4475.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/251266076/)

There is sadly little else worth snappng on Lodge Lane, a project like this seem to be confined to the Sefton Park end.

http://static.flickr.com/110/251266470_de5fdd19f9.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/251266470/)


You forget the pubs that exist on the ghetto that is Lodge Lane.:Colorz_Grey_PDT_24:

And the Library.

Is the library still used? I can't remember, it's a while since I last went down there, and it was dark and I didn't want to hang about!!

Is the church near the top of the pic, the one in Mossley Hill?
http://www.liverpoolpictorial.co.uk/tocky001.jpg

Yes, it's the one by the Carnatic halls of residence isn't it? On Rose Lane?

Is the church near the top of the pic, the one in Mossley Hill?
http://www.liverpoolpictorial.co.uk/tocky001.jpg

Where you on top of the high rises that are being refurbished?

Shows none of the evil ghetto.:PDT_Aliboronz_24:


Yes the library is still used. Even though it's on Lodge Lane they call it Edge Hill Library.

Oh yeah, I was born in some Old Hospital thats not in Toccy nomore, so does that make me from the Ghetto!:eek:

Where you on top of the high rises that are being refurbished?

Shows none of the evil ghetto.:PDT_Aliboronz_24:


Yes the library is still used. Even though it's on Lodge Lane they call it Edge Hill Library.
Thanks Snappel.
Max, I took the pic from the proddy cathedral tower (http://www.liverpoolpictorial.co.uk/anglicansept2006/index.html).

I was thinking it was the flats as well, but now I can see why I was wrong! The nearest block to the bottom of the photo is the one by the roundabout at the end of Princes Road/Avenue. Makes sense now!!

Why did they have to cover up the "Sefton Park Mews" part of this building?
I

saw Kev's earlier picture and was pleased to see it had all been cleaned up.
Here's 2 "snaps" I took in 1987 (out-of-focus, unfortunately).
For those

that don't know, "Maguire's Livery Stables" is the Fern Grove entrance to the same building.

BTW, toxteth.net is an excellent site, and does have

the original boundary of Toxteth Park correct.
L8 and all the other numbers are only 20th Century postal districts.

great

pics :)

where exactly is sefton park mews?

great pics :)

where exactly is sefton park mews?

On Lodge Lane, near to Fern Grove.

Totally and utterly wrong. See:
http://www.toxteth.net

Paul mapped out the boundaries of Toxteth from the ancient maps - he walked it. His map shows the complete and correct boundary of Toxteth. He corrected mistakes in the boundary too. Yes, and parts of "Mossley Hill" are in Toxteth.

I have been reading this conversation. Technically of course, Waterways, you are correct and historically those areas are part of the original Royal hunting preserve of Toxteth Park as set up in the reign of King John. But areas change with time and usage, and I don't think you can view Penny Lane or Wavertree as being still part of Toxteth now. Similarly, Liverpool and much of Lancashire as far as Wigan and Winwick was part of West Derby Hundred (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Derby_(hundred)) as described in the Domesday Book, but you wouldn't say Liverpool or Wigan are part of West Derby now.

Chris

I have been reading this conversation. Technically of course, Waterways, you are correct and historically those areas are part of the original Royal hunting preserve of Toxteth Park as set up in the reign of King John. But areas change with time and usage, and I don't think you can view Penny Lane or Wavertree as being still part of Toxteth now. Similarly, Liverpool and much of Lancashire as far as Wigan and Winwick was part of West Derby Hundred (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Derby_(hundred)) as described in the Domesday Book, but you wouldn't say Liverpool or Wigan are part of West Derby now.

Chris

The last time I took notice a big sign on Penny Lane said Toxteth and one on Aigburth Vale too. The old boundaries of the park still stand today. Those who live in Toxteth and deny it, well should get out.

This stone post and sign are on Ullet Road (near the top gate entrance to Sefton park). The metal sign is a bit corroded but I think it reads:

TOWNSHIP
OF
TOXTETH PARK
ERECTED
BY THE
HEALTH COMMITTEE
1865

Has it been established what the sign refers to? Certainly not the stone post.
I have seen the phrase 'erected by the health committee' before, on the ramp at Sefton St. but I thought that plaque referred to the 'plumbing'. That plaque has a date of only one year later.
Is the stone pillar from one of the large houses built around the parks' perimeter?

This stone post and sign are on Ullet Road (near the top gate entrance to Sefton park). The metal sign is a bit corroded but I think it reads:

TOWNSHIP
OF
TOXTETH PARK
ERECTED
BY THE
HEALTH COMMITTEE
1865

Has it been established what the sign refers to? Certainly not the stone post.
I have seen the phrase 'erected by the health committee' before, on the ramp at Sefton St. but I thought that plaque referred to the 'plumbing'. That plaque has a date of only one year later.
Is the stone pillar from one of the large houses built around the parks' perimeter?

Well spotted Marky. The Health Committee are probably the managment committee of Toxteth Park Urban Sanitary District. This was a unit of local government that preceeded the Urban District Councils

There was another one - in excellent condition - at the bottom of Dingle Lane.
Freddy O'Connor made the mistake of saying it was when the houses were built, which was definitely wrong because they were built in the late 1920s.
It's gone now - hope it's in safe keeping.
Here's my piece about the house (called Dingle Vale) which was on the site when the sign was first fixed.
I thought it had something to do with the sewers, but I can't prove it.
http://www.toxteth.net/places/liverpool/history/buildings/dingle%20vale.htm

I thought the plaque was either to do with the water supply or the drains. As you'll know efforts were made to improve both for health reasons.
I did wonder if there were any water fonts nearby as I know there were a couple of metal pillar fonts in the parks (I used both years ago). Another reason I thought of the water supply was because most of the fonts around (inc. obelisk fonts) have dates around the same period.

It could very well be that the structures 'erected by the health committee' refer to the drains because the Sefton Street ramp contains dockers toilets (aswell as a horses drinking trough). I'll see if I can slip my camera through the gates and get some pics one day.

Toxteth.net says St Banabas Is part of Toxteth but you get Taffy saying It's Wavertree!

Do these boundaries on Toxteth.net only apply to when It was the ancient park? It says half my street Is Toxteth( I live on the Wavertree end).

Maybe it´s wrong, but people saids me that Toxteth, Kensington and Tuebrook, are very dangerous and bad districs. It´s true? Where are others bads sides in Liverpool?
I´m with surprise face coz I walk alone in Toxteth and I´m not feeling the dangerous...
Thanks!!!!

I'm surprised that anyone outside Liverpool knows about Tuebrook! Are you for real? My advice is trust your own experience. Poor areas of any city can be unsafe if you don't keep your wits about you.

One of the main errors that some historians make is where they over-extrapolate from a source. So a sign/map/church board with the term Toxteth Park on it is heralded as prooving that such a place meaningfully existed or even continues to exist. I don't doubt that Toxteth Park existed as at least a topographical reality in the distant past and that as the city extended its boundaries at the beginning of the last century there may have been maps that showed the location of Toxteth Park and one or two civic or ecclesiastical organisations might have used this terms to denote location but it never amounted to anything durable or meaningful to the actual people who eventually lived in the area that was once part of Toxteth Park in King John's hunting days (modern day L17 in the main).

People on this thread have drawn attention to how churches have used the term Toxteth Park to describe where they are situated but this is far from universal practice. For example, St Michaels (CofE) half way between Dingle Lane and Jericho Lane doesn't use this term nor does St Charles (RC) just over half way between Dingle Lane and Aigburth Vale. No one who lives in this area would ever describe themselves as living in Toxteth or Toxteth Park. This is not because of some form of misplaced snobbery but because the identification since the beginning of the last century has been with L17 the postcode. People say that they are from L17.

Up until the so-called Toxteth Riots most people who lived in what is now termed Toxteth would have described themselves as living in L8. After the riots the term Toxteth has been increasingly used to describe that area in the local media, and by people from outside L8. Everyone I know from L8 describes themselves as coming from L8. I don't know many people who say that they are from Toxteth. However, a lot of agencies to help the local communities have been set up since the riots and these often use the term 'Toxteth'.

As for the term 'Dingle'. My understanding is that this once specified a very specific area around Dingle Lane and extended to the river. It initially contained a few fancy residences and more recently massive tenement blocks of the Gardens variety until they were knocked down. It now seems to extend right up the hill and over it. I don't know what's going on there but maybe districts like cities themselves can alter over time.

In other words you pay your money and you make your own choice! Maybe it's about multiple layers of association? LCC defines an area in one way, and then another. The church might employ another way, and local historians are sometimes caught between the two.

Maybe it's about how people define their local idenity? I noticed how the challenge to find Liverpool's oldest non aristrocratic family defined Liverpool in a particular way (not including Knowsley, Bootle, Kirkby etc.). Does that mean that these places are not part of a place called Liverpool? Or is it just about how you define the city? On this occasion they're not but on another occasion they might be. Maybe this principle of definitions depending on the terms of reference being used extends to Toxteth Park (and everywhere else hereabouts)?

I'm looking at a Bartholomews contoured map of Merseyside (undated). It shows Toxteth Park and situates it where Greenbank Park is currently situated. Sefton Park is in more dominant lettering and situated where it still is. This map also shows Fulwood Park as a distinct area and Fulwood Road goes straight down to the shore line. It also shows a golf course between Fulwood Park and the river that I have never heard about! Tennis courts, yes, croquet lawns, yes. Golf course?! Most of Aigburth, Allerton and Garston appears yet to be built. Woolton and Childwall are clearly villages. The old Cheshire Line loop via West Derby is also shown as is the line from West Kirby to Parkgate and on to Hooton. All of Garston's train stations are shown. As well as Speke Hall there is a Tewit Hall in Speke, and Old Hall in Hale looks massive.

I'm surprised that anyone outside Liverpool knows about Tuebrook! Are you for real? My advice is trust your own experience. Poor areas of any city can be unsafe if you don't keep your wits about you.

Jericho, I do not know it!!! Only I was asnwer to know!!! coz I moving to live to Liverpool, and I´m looking for a flats or rooms. I´m not sure it´s Toxteth, Tuebrook and Kensington Rd. are dangerous, coz only I know Liverpool than tourist.

[QUOTE=Jericho;43467]One of the main errors that some historians make is where they over-extrapolate from a source. So a sign/map/church board with the term Toxteth Park on it is heralded as prooving that such a place meaningfully existed or even continues to exist.

People on this thread have drawn attention to how churches have used the term Toxteth Park to describe where they are situated but this is far from universal practice. For example, St Michaels (CofE) half way between Dingle Lane and Jericho Lane doesn't use this term nor does St Charles (RC) just over half way between Dingle Lane and Aigburth Vale.QUOTE]


From Diocese of Liverpool web site

http://www.liverpool.anglican.org/parishes/parishparish/parishparisht.htm

Toxteth Park Christ Church
Linnet Lane, Liverpool
Parish No 616

Toxteth Park St Agnes & St Pancras
Buckingham Avenue, Liverpool
Parish No 617

Toxteth Park St Michael In The Hamlet With St Andrew
St Michael In The Hamlet, Liverpool
Parish No 618

St Andrew closed in the 1970s I believe. If you go into St Michael's Church, you'll find a large banner which proudly states " St Andrews Toxteth" I have a number of bits of modern literature from St Michael's in the Hamlet Church which clearly state they believe they are in Toxteth Park, not least a parish map from about 2005.

I don't don't the locals don't believe they live in Toxteth, they wrongly think they are in Aigburth. However wishing and reality are not the same.

So the modern CofE uses the term Toxteth Park to denote a particular area. Early in the last century someone using contemporary records produced this list:

http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/Information/churches.htm

No mention of Toxteth Park in that one! How does your explanation account for St Charles' church on Aigburth Road lacking any affiliation with Toxteth Park? When St Michaels church was built, this area was not part of Liverpool at all. St Michaels in the Hamlet saw itself as precisely that, a hamlet. No mention of Toxteth Park. Locals can say that they live in St Michaels in the Hamlet. There is a sign to it from Aigburth Road and it has its own train station (St Michaels). Not a sign to Toxteth Park to be seen anywhere!

People from outside of L17 seem to think that people who live between Dingle Lane / Aigburth vale say that they live in Aigburth out of some kind of snobbery. This is not correct. Local custom which in my mind is every bit as valid as Church custom informs locals that this is Aigburth. The area as a whole knocks Aigburth proper for six in terms of the quality of its architecture, urban environment, life-style choices, restaurants etc. - so to all intents and purposes real class is to be found north of the vale and not south of it!

I don't care if some Toxteth fanatics see all this area as Toxteth Park. If it makes them happy, good luck to them. Anyone who knows this area or anyone who lives in it knows that it's a special area whatever it's called. No one outside of toxteth.net devotees calls this area Toxteth Park and Toxteth.net isn't exactly the most accurate of sites. If I live to be a hundred years or more I don't think I would ever meet anyone from Alwyn Street, Ivanhoe Road or Fulwood Road who claimed that they live in Toxteth Park. There's nothing wrong with Toxteth Park. (Parks and Heaths are sprouting up all over the place in south Liverpool at the moment). It just doesn't seem meaningful to me to use a term to describe an area that no one who lived in that area would actually use.

Toxteth Park was such a large area it's been subdivided.
Mainly into postal districts in the 20th Century.
It's history. :shock:
Accept the fact, and live with it.

Marie.
Liverpool is no more unsafe than a lot of places, and certainly safer than Manchester, and you deserved a less rude answer.

I ignore Postcodes when looking for boundaries, as they're open to abuse or simple errors. There must be hundreds of wrongly placed street signs around Liverpool.

As for Toxteth Park Church Parish boundaries...these have been used as recently as the 1901 census to mark out areas on the census forms (at least on the ones I've seen for the area North of Dingle lane). I get the idea that Church of England and not Catholic Parish boundaries were used for 1901 census.

More recently, new neighbourhood areas have been set up, so now Toxteth (contained within Riverside...a boring name which I'll never use) no longer has any of the parks located within it. Toxteth has now been lumped together with "Waterfront" and Everton. What it loses in parks it gains by at least having St. Georges Hall within the new area. 'Aigburth' now has the 'three parks'...so say the Council.

I'll stick with the earlier boundaries and ignore any invented by people in offices who have no idea of history or common sense. Names such as South Central, Waterfront and Riverside (and Merseyside for that matter) give a clue to how much thought goes into new names for areas...i.e. not a lot.

Problems arise because fired by enthusiasm people over-interpret from a map or a signpost or an attempt at creating a name for an area that might have had historical currency at one point but never subsequenly took off when reused. Canning is an example of a genuine historical area that fell out of common usage and is now reframed as the 'Georgian Quarter'. Parliamentary or local electoral boundaries also come and go. 'Ropewalks' provides an example of how an historical term can be redeployed to define an area that never used this term to define itself until recently (largely because it wasn't particularly residential).

My favourite is Toxteth Park. Historically it existed as the name for an area outside Liverpool in which hardly anyone lived. As the city expanded into this area, my guess is that a name was needed to attach to it. Maybe Toxteth Park was chosen. It reaks of late Victorian/Edwardian faux gentility. Anyway, it didn't stick.

Obviously there will always be pedants who will insist that this area is Toxteth Park or Toxteth. They can set their stall out and people can judge them by their wares. My purpose in going on about this matter is to address people from outside the city or people within the city who don't know this part of south Liverpool very well, and ensure that they have the information they need to make their own minds up.

Let me summarise my position.

(1) Historically, a largish portion of what is now south Liverpool was occupied by what was once called Toxteth Park. The exact boundaries of this park are open to dispute, as indeed is the extent to which it was used as a royal hunting park.

(2) Not many people lived there until the end of the 19th century.

(3) Sefton Park opened in 1872 (or thereabouts) and the area between the park and the river was subsequently over the following decades developed for housing.

(4) As the entire area was incorporated into the city at the end of the 19th Century my guess is that this is where historically the confusion about what to call this area arose. Prior to incorporation into Liverpool it was indeed part of the Township of Toxteth Park. Toxteth Park was not part of Liverpool at this time and not many people lived in the area south of modern day Dingle Lane. With the incorporation of Toxteth Park into Liverpool this whole area became part of Liverpool and as it was laid out for residential development it was as part of the city of Liverpool not as Toxteth Park. The people who bought the properties south of Dingle Lane were buying propery in Liverpool 17. (Historically most people have owned their own property in this area). My guess is that one or two developers tried to sell this place as 'Toxteth Park' and the CofE but not the RC church used the term Toxteth Park at parochial level.

(5) The use of the term 'Toxteth Park' to refer to this area amongst its inhabitants has never had any popular currency at all. If you doubt this ask people in Lark Lane (assuming you can find anyone from Lark Lane in the lane - try the Parkfield Inn), or Aigburth Road south of Aigburth Vale where they live. No one will say Toxteth Park or Toxteth. Most will just say L17, some will say Aigburth.

(6) Liverpool has a long and proud tradition of using a postcode to denote location, L8, L17, L18 etc.

(7) The correct term for the area between Dingle Lane and Aigburth Vale is L17.

That's just your opinion, Jericho, and you're entitled to it.
I've said much earlier on in this thread that there are so many different types of boundaries that it is hard to define them.
But over, and above all that, the boundaries of Toxteth Park were clearly known 800 years ago, and it is not toxteth.net that invented them.

You say Toxteth Park became part of Liverpool.

Liverpool was part of Lancashire.
Lancashire was part of England.
England was part of..............
Need I go on?

The Southern boundary of Toxteth Park is not in dispute...around Jericho Lane.
It surprises me how important postcodes seem to be, when they are invented simply as a means to run a business. I prefer names over numbers.
The name 'Toxteth Park' has been used long after its' incorporation into the City of Liverpool...maps, official documents.
I do understand that people South of Dingle Lane to Aigburth Vale would refer to the area as Aigburth, it's just that I'm not convinced this is entirely accurate.

What is not at issue is the fact that no one who lives in L17 in 2007 considers themselves to be living in a place called Toxteth Park! If we assume that terms exist to aid communication, how the hell does the term Toxteth Park aid communication about contemporary L17? I don't have any problem whatsoever about Toxteth Park being used to describe a general area that once existed. I enjoy being amused by people who describe Lark Lane as part of Toxteth or Toxteth Park in 2007. It makes my day. I love a good laugh.

The area behind the retaining the wall between Dingle Lane and Jericho Lane used to be universally called the cazzy. The only bit left is the path between St Michael's station and Riverside Drive (the Garden Festival site is bang in the middle of the cazzy!) When all the 'luxury', 'executive', 'desirable', 'prestige' etc etc homes are built and this area has a new name, I'm goint to create a website called cazzy.net. It's purpose will be to inform people who call their areas things like Southwood Park or Jericho Heath that they are all in reality part of the cazzy and in denial.

Cazzy rules OK?

The Southern boundary of Toxteth Park is not in dispute...around Jericho Lane.
It surprises me how important postcodes seem to be, when they are invented simply as a means to run a business. I prefer names over numbers.
The name 'Toxteth Park' has been used long after its' incorporation into the City of Liverpool...maps, official documents.
I do understand that people South of Dingle Lane to Aigburth Vale would refer to the area as Aigburth, it's just that I'm not convinced this is entirely accurate.

You mean the historical boundaries. Can you direct me towards a modern map that uses these terms for the locations you describe - one from the last 50 years would suffice. You may well prefer names over numbers. Most people in L8 and L17 prefer numbers over names.

The Southern boundary of Toxteth Park is not in dispute...around Jericho Lane.
It surprises me how important postcodes seem to be, when they are invented simply as a means to run a business. I prefer names over numbers.
The name 'Toxteth Park' has been used long after its' incorporation into the City of Liverpool...maps, official documents.
I do understand that people South of Dingle Lane to Aigburth Vale would refer to the area as Aigburth, it's just that I'm not convinced this is entirely accurate.

The Northern Boundary isn't in dispute either.
Parliament Street and Upper Parliament Street are named after an Act of Parliament which confirmed the boundary of Toxteth Park and Liverpool.
And, of course, St James Church was given special permission to be built in Toxteth Park.

For somebody to bring the name "Cazzy" into the discussion is rather silly, as that is just a nickname for the Cast Iron Shore, which certainly didn't have any clearly defined boundaries.
In fact, nobody is sure if it takes its name from St Michaels (Iron) Church, or the Mersey Forge.

The Northern Boundary isn't in dispute either.
Parliament Street and Upper Parliament Street are named after an Act of Parliament which confirmed the boundary of Toxteth Park and Liverpool.
And, of course, St James Church was given special permission to be built in Toxteth Park.

For somebody to bring the name "Cazzy" into the discussion is rather silly, as that is just a nickname for the Cast Iron Shore, which certainly didn't have any clearly defined boundaries.
In fact, nobody is sure if it takes its name from St Michaels (Iron) Church, or the Mersey Forge.

You clearly don't get irony! Can you point me towards any maps published in the last 50 years that use the term Toxteth Park to describe the area you describe as Toxteth Park?

Thanks in anticipation

Perhaps I should clarify the term 'any' given your tendency to be a bit over literal.

Any as in the equivalent to the modern A-Z. Material from toxteth.net and a list of churches within the parish of Toxteth Park won't suffice.

Ta

There's none so blind as those that won't see.

Why restrict yourself to 50 years?
Why not 50 days?

I'm not going to keep repeating myself to someone who won't accept facts.

There's none so blind as those that won't see.

Why restrict yourself to 50 years?
Why not 50 days?

I'm not going to keep repeating myself to someone who won't accept facts.

Do you really have a contemporary map of Liverpool that shows a place called Toxteth Park exisiting between Parliament Street and Jericho Lane. I would love to see it

Or are you just being silly? Maybe you're being ironic? I'm just asking for evidence. That's all.

My point being that if you can't evidence your claim then the reality is that you are just talking about an area that exisited historically but no longer exists in a meaningful way. History is full of them.

Not exactly rocket science.

Just wait, Jericho.
I hope you're sitting down.
I've just got to scan something.

No more aggressive comments at the moment, please.

Well, whilst I'm waiting for you to scan something - don't forget to include authorship and date of publication so that I can check, I'm looking at an A-Z, 4" to a mile street map of the area that was once known as Toxteth Park. It was published in 2004. NO SIGN OF TOXTETH PARK ANYWHERE.

Jericho.
Perhaps I should ask you to prove your claims!

This is the Ordnance Survey map from the 1990s.
I'm sure the latest will show the same.

It doesn't actually say "Toxteth Park", but there's no doubt it says "Toxteth".

I'm not going to waste any more time arguing with you, because you are ignoring the first rule of this forum to "Be Friendly".

People can read this thread and make the judgement for themselves about who is being friendly or unfriendly. You were the one who personalised the discussion by describing my remarks about the cazzy as 'silly' and then talking about 'there's none so blind as those that won't see.' I have just been asking for hard evidence. No one is disputing the existence of Toxteth. I am merely pointing out that the term Toxteth Park is of historical value only and is not used at all in a contempory Liverpool setting. Don't take it personally bacause I don't agree with you and challenge your evidence.

In terms of my evidence. A-Z maps of Liverpool are available at all local bookshops and some newsagents.

A MUCH-LOVED city library has been given a stay of execution from the bulldozers.

Edge Hill library, in Lodge Lane, has been a Liverpool landmark for seven decades due to its distinctive flame-topped clocktower.

But the building, due to celebrate its 77th birthday next week, is earmarked for demolition as part of a £5m regeneration scheme.

Cosmopolitan Housing plans to pull it down to make way for a new library, flats, offices and a car park.

Heritage campaigners say the library is an “arch-itectural gem” and councillors agree, sending the proposal back to the drawing board.

continues (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/liverpoolecho/news/echonews/tm_headline=stay-of-execution-for-gem-of-library%26method=full%26objectid=18754055%26siteid =50061-name_page.html).....

Why Is It Edge Hill library when It's In Toxteth?

The Official Toxteth Library Is In Windsor street.

They saved the ghetto Library.

Just noticed in the Liverpool Rangers Events brochure that there is a 6 hour walk (!) scheduled for Saturday 24th March. Its billed as "The Ancient Toxteth Deer Park. A fascinating insight into days gone by in Liverpool. Please bring a packed lunch. Meeting place Lake Car Park near Aigburth Vale."

I know most of these things are repeated every year. I just wondered if anyone had been on this one before?

Mike

I know most of these things are repeated every year. I just wondered if anyone had been on this one before?

Mike

Nope but it sounds fascinating!

Just noticed in the Liverpool Rangers Events brochure that there is a 6 hour walk (!) scheduled for Saturday 24th March. Its billed as "The Ancient Toxteth Deer Park. A fascinating insight into days gone by in Liverpool. Please bring a packed lunch. Meeting place Lake Car Park near Aigburth Vale."

I know most of these things are repeated every year. I just wondered if anyone had been on this one before?

Mike

Hello Mike

Thanks for posting this. I have not been on one and must try to catch one when I am on Merseyside sometime.

Chris

They are usually good. I think the ranger guy is called Richard. I've been on quite a few before. There was the Mushroom hunt in Childwall Woods, which ended with him cooking mushrooms on a portable gas fire. Unfortunately presumably for health and safety reasons the mushrooms he actually cooked us he had bought in Tescos!

Then there was the Bat walks in Childwall, a night wildlife trip round Sefton Park (we saw more drunk teenagers than wildlife though)

an interesting walk round Priory Wood and the river with loads of history about the cast iron shore and all the St Michaels hamlet houses (with special permission to go round the back of many of them)

and others. He is a very knowledgeable guy.

I'm tempted by the Toxteth one, but 6 hours!

Thanks Mike. Nice to know that such interesting walks are available even though one of six hours duration would be a bit of an endurance test!!! :PDT_Xtremez_12:

Chris

Thanks Mike. Nice to know that such interesting walks are available even though one of six hours duration would be a bit of an endurance test!!! :PDT_Xtremez_12:

Chris

It's nice to know the Liverpool Rangers will be walking the whole of the true Toxteth from Otterspool Park to Parliament St and not simply the contemporary version of Toxteth that the council defines as part of the L8 district. You could of course walk the latter in perhaps and hour.

A MUCH-LOVED city library has been given a stay of execution from the bulldozers.

Edge Hill library, in Lodge Lane, has been a Liverpool landmark for seven decades due to its distinctive flame-topped clocktower.

But the building, due to celebrate its 77th birthday next week, is earmarked for demolition as part of a £5m regeneration scheme.

Cosmopolitan Housing plans to pull it down to make way for a new library, flats, offices and a car park.

Heritage campaigners say the library is an “arch-itectural gem” and councillors agree, sending the proposal back to the drawing board.

continues (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/liverpoolecho/news/echonews/tm_headline=stay-of-execution-for-gem-of-library%26method=full%26objectid=18754055%26siteid =50061-name_page.html).....

24th March 2007

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/188/432355795_349a131f68.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/432355795/)

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http://farm1.static.flickr.com/171/432356149_e7acbcc616.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/432356149/)

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http://farm1.static.flickr.com/145/432355066_271b011860.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/432355066/)

[B]24th March 2007

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This is the last remaining part of Lodge Lane Baths.
While it's good to see it still standing, it's surprising that it wasn't demolished with the rest of the Baths.

Wouldn't it be great if it could be used for an extension of the library, if it's decided to keep it?

^^Tell ya what Phil? It looks like its gonna collapse any minute, during the last lot of snow it looked like it was! Very pretty though. It reminds me of the structure at Princess Dock^^

24th March 2007

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/188/432355795_349a131f68.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/432355795/)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/174/432355931_d5c7477423_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/432355931/)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/183/432355991_6d0e0b80ea.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/432355991/)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/149/432354648_2a9a33eba7.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/432354648/)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/171/432356149_e7acbcc616.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/432356149/)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/176/432356263_dcda9c50fb.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/432356263/)

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http://farm1.static.flickr.com/145/432355066_271b011860.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/432355066/)

great photos Kev
I used to live in Beaumont Street & spent most of my time in the library or the baths its really sad to see your pictures but I'm glad you posted them
I'll have to get back there soo to see the area before it all disappears

I have great hope for the Lodge Lane, lots of potential there. Thansk for the comments :PDT_Piratz_26:

I'd rename It Ghetto Lane.

I'd rename Gramby Street Ghetto Street too.

I survived the 6 hour walk round the "Ancient Toxteth Deer Park" put on by the Liverpool Rangers.

The route we took was Sefton Park Aigburth Vale end, Palm House, Cafe, out near Ullet Road and past the Park Lodge that Kev had a tour round, into Princes Park, out the Belvidere Road end, down to the Ancient Chapel of Toxteth, then to the Turner Home (http://www.turner-home.com/history.php) where we got a look inside including the chapel. Then down towards the river via the steep steps at the end of Grafton Street. Lunch at the Brittania then along Riverside Drive through Priory Wood, all the usual St Michaels in the Hamlet stuff including special permission back garden views, back through Priory Wood and across the fields to the river. Then along the prom to Otterspool and through the Otterspool park ending at Jericho Lane.

Every inch of the way John the ranger was pointing stuff out and showing old photos and maps and stuff. The route wasnt the boundary walk I was expecting but covered a lot of ground and did give you an idea of the scale of the "park".

A superb walk. Highly recommended.


It is repeated on Sunday 20th May in case anyone is tempted.

Mike

I survived the 6 hour walk round the "Ancient Toxteth Deer Park" put on by the Liverpool Rangers.

The route we took was Sefton Park Aigburth Vale end, Palm House, Cafe, out near Ullet Road and past the Park Lodge that Kev had a tour round, into Princes Park, out the Belvidere Road end, down to the Ancient Chapel of Toxteth, then to the Turner Home (http://www.turner-home.com/history.php) where we got a look inside including the chapel. Then down towards the river via the steep steps at the end of Grafton Street. Lunch at the Brittania then along Riverside Drive through Priory Wood, all the usual St Michaels in the Hamlet stuff including special permission back garden views, back through Priory Wood and across the fields to the river. Then along the prom to Otterspool and through the Otterspool park ending at Jericho Lane.

Every inch of the way John the ranger was pointing stuff out and showing old photos and maps and stuff. The route wasnt the boundary walk I was expecting but covered a lot of ground and did give you an idea of the scale of the "park".

A superb walk. Highly recommended.


It is repeated on Sunday 20th May in case anyone is tempted.

Mike

That's brilliant, thanks for the report. I'd love to go into The Turner Home. Did u take any pics?

No pics, sorry. I did have my camera as well! The only real time I wanted to snap was in the Turner Home but as it was a working nursing home it didn't seem right, with all the residents wandering about.

Mike

TO CELEBRATE Liverpool’s 800th birthday, people in the Welsh Streets of Liverpool have joined forces with plant enthusiasts to produce a golden display of daffodils and narcissi. more (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/liverpooldailypost/news/regionalnews/tm_headline=a-host-of-golden-daffodils-to-celebrate-liverpool%2D%2D8217%2Ds-800th-birthday%26method=full%26objectid=18843827%26sitei d=50061-name_page.html)

24th March 2007

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They can't demolish this fantastic building!
Is it listed? (I know that doesn't always mean it stays)
This is what is wrong with these areas.
I have lived my life in Liverpool 8, and we need to start preserving what is there rather than throw up cookie cutter houses (which look so bad)

They can't demolish this fantastic building!
Is it listed? (I know that doesn't always mean it stays)
This is what is wrong with these areas.
I have lived my life in Liverpool 8, and we need to start preserving what is there rather than throw up cookie cutter houses (which look so bad)

If you want to save it I suggest that you start organising petitions etc RIGHT NOW. In true Liverpool fashion it looks as though it will be left to rot beyond the point of no redemption and then pulled down. I think a law should be passed that forces the owners of such buildings to restore them to their original condition if they are deliberately left to rot. That would make them take better care of them.

I have great hope for the Lodge Lane, lots of potential there. Thansk for the comments :PDT_Piratz_26:

I agree. I drove up it a few weeks ago and it's looking better than it has done for some time. Quite a lot of Somali vibrancy and what looked like (from the car window anyway) some interesting shops serving the needs of local communities. I particularly like all the 'groves' on the right hand side heading towards Edge Hill. I read somewhere that the intention is to make Lodge Lane the centre of this part of L8 and to achieve this retail facilities in the Granby area will not be developed - so its future looks assured.

A £33m plan to transform one of Liverpool’s poorest communities could be on the way.

Housing officials have rewritten three-year-old proposals to build houses and flats in Granby Triangle and refurbish old terraced homes.

But residents are still unhappy with the ideas and want changes.

Granby Triangle consists of four roads, Beaconsfield Street, Cairns Street, Jermyn Street and Ducie Street, off Granby Street, Toxteth.

It was once a thriving neighbourhood, but only 55 out of almost 300 homes are still occupied.

Liverpool council now wants to refurbish 70% of the homes to 21st century standards, with the rest bulldozed and rebuilt. continues (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/liverpoolecho/news/echonews/tm_headline=don%2D%2D8217%2Dt-turn-our-%2Dpound%2D33m-housing-dream-into-nightmare%26method=full%26objectid=18897258%26site id=50061-name_page.html)....

Another update for Toxteth is on the way over at my flickr site.

Few things to ask in order to aide me with the captions which need to be written...

--> What is the tower block called on Mill Street?...

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5552/20070428083vd1.jpg
Sorry about the darkness of the image, the Sun was in a less favourable position!

--> Anyone know about the Beaufort Street Board School?

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2271/20070428092xy0.jpg

-->Whats happening with the Florrie? I thought their funding was secured? Their website isn't giving anything away!

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/1977/20070428145ub1.jpg

Many Thanks in advance for your help and knowledge!

I think the high rise flats in Mill street are just called Mill View ? I have heard of Harrington Board school which was down by the old Higgsons and boasted a very small swimming baths. I've been to Beaufort Street School to vist but I never knew it was a 'board school.'

Beaufort Street Board School was opened in 1875.

Beaufort Street Board School was opened in 1875.


Thank you for that PhilipG. I can always rely on somebody here to give me the correct info.

Thanks for that everyone! Full credit will be given.

Feel free to comment once all images are uploaded. There are 50 odd to do so I've got me work cut out to get it all up!

All the best

Russ

Thanks for that everyone! Full credit will be given.

Feel free to comment once all images are uploaded. There are 50 odd to do so I've got me work cut out to get it all up!

All the best

Russ

Russ.
Just in case you haven't heard of toxteth.net.
Most of the info in there is usually quite accurate.
At one time I was one of the unofficial "proof-readers".
http://www.toxteth.net/places/liverpool/general/florence%20institute.htm

Russ.
Just in case you haven't heard of toxteth.net.
Most of the info in there is usually quite accurate.
At one time I was one of the unofficial "proof-readers".
http://www.toxteth.net/places/liverpool/general/florence%20institute.htm

Admittedly, thats where I've been reserching most streets and locations in Toxteth, the last update I did (which concerntrated around Lodge Lane and Albert Park) was written with the aide of Toxteth.net. I have linked the website as it has been so useful!

Just out of interest, does anyone have any images of Beaufort Street School before it fell into dis-repair? It would be interesting to see the building in its entirety!

Many thanks

Russ

EDIT: Just seen Dave Woods image from 1995, what a shame ay?

Beaufort Street School:
There was a reunion event held in the mid-1970s...I had a Victorian-born relative attend. I hope that the new school in Upper Essex Street (Beaufort Park) have some old photos.
Here's a cutting I kept from a couple of years ago as it has the school in the background.
c)Liverpool Echo. Photo Martin Birchall
The puns in the article contained such gems as 'udderly crazy' and 'Toxteth is ox-teth'. I passed this area and could smell the cows before I saw them. They were in a large tent at the time so I couldn't photograph them.

Has anyone else heard of a campaign to have Beaufort Street Board Schools demolished. I had a leaflet pushed through the door a while back which mentioned local residents wanting it to be demolished because of the anti-social behaviour it attracts. It mentioned they were having difficulties with the Council over the issue. I think the difficulty may be that it's a LISTED building. It would be a first if a Listed building were to be demolished just because of the behaviour of some kids. I think the leaflet was a Labour Party election leaflet.

Has anyone else heard of a campaign to have Beaufort Street Board Schools demolished. I had a leaflet pushed through the door a while back which mentioned local residents wanting it to be demolished because of the anti-social behaviour it attracts. It mentioned they were having difficulties with the Council over the issue. I think the difficulty may be that it's a LISTED building. It would be a first if a Listed building were to be demolished just because of the behaviour of some kids. I think the leaflet was a Labour Party election leaflet.

It hasn't been mentioned in the latest batch of political cr*p that's come through my door.
I though they'd started to demolish it a few years ago.
The local kids will naturally contribute to it becoming a "dangerous building" so complete demolition will probably ensue.
Is it a "Listed" building?
I ask because St Michael's, Matthew Arnold and South Hill Road Schools have all been demolished and if any should have been Listed, it should have been St Michael's.
Sometimes we just assume buildings are Listed, when they are not.
For instance Coleman's Depository isn't.

Demolishing buildings won't cure anti social behavior anyway, it will just move it to somewhere else.

The Heights are MillView and the Florrie is currently being gutted and cleaned out on the inside, bushes, rubbish, roofing timbers, rats and bats. We met with a couple of the activists just at the weekend and are meeting them again on thursday regarding another venture.

Updated my Toxteth Set and still looking at a couple more photos.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/maxmolyneux/sets/72157594584064630/

Would of done Admiral Grove too but forgot which one was Ringo's but I think I recognised the paint job.

There was a few Beatles fans there too taking pics.:PDT_Aliboronz_24:

I've seen reference to Beaufort Street schools being listed...but it was on the internet, so it's not absolute fact. It stated East and West wings listed...(I'll see if I can locate the article)
I think the leaflet I saw mention of demolition plans was a couple of years ago...obviously looking for votes from locals.
After the first round of fires, there were plans for an arts centre. I remember the council saying that if plans weren't carried out within a year or so, then they would have it demolished. It still stands...just.
Funnily enough, I've heard those 1960s style houses (Grafton/Park St area) around there are earmarked for demolition in the next few years. Beaufort Street School may well outlast the local residents.
This looks official...the school is Listed here as grade II
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:ZVAQDYz2C9EJ:www.liverpool.gov.uk/Images/tcm21-63651.pdf+%22beaufort+street+school%22+listed&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=uk

People are still living In those Welsh houses like the ones In Madryn too the only builders there were road workers.

Bewy, was to become a Film studios centre. All it needed was 24 hour security, but no! the empty heads got in and burned it. Sometimes I despair, it is a beautiful building, with sandstone mullions and red and blue brick features. Done up it would make a lovely hotel, the views are fantastic. Roll on those Euro millions, you are all invited when I open it!!! :PDT_Aliboronz_24:

I've seen reference to Beaufort Street schools being listed...but it was on the internet, so it's not absolute fact. It stated East and West wings listed...(I'll see if I can locate the article)
I think the leaflet I saw mention of demolition plans was a couple of years ago...obviously looking for votes from locals.
After the first round of fires, there were plans for an arts centre. I remember the council saying that if plans weren't carried out within a year or so, then they would have it demolished. It still stands...just.
Funnily enough, I've heard those 1960s style houses (Grafton/Park St area) around there are earmarked for demolition in the next few years. Beaufort Street School may well outlast the local residents.
This looks official...the school is Listed here as grade II
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:ZVAQDYz2C9EJ:www.liverpool.gov.uk/Images/tcm21-63651.pdf+%22beaufort+street+school%22+listed&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=uk

Thanks Marky.

Goodness me! the caption for the Bewy might be rather long after all thats been said regarding it!

It's been great reading about it and I hope something good happens to it. It would be a shame to see it deteriorate more.

EDIT: Would people rather have me say that the likes of Cockburn Street and Shorefields was in Toxteth or Dingle?

I thought this was going to be good, but it's ruined by the bright road sign.

Goodness me! the caption for the Bewy might be rather long after all thats been said regarding it!

It's been great reading about it and I hope something good happens to it. It would be a shame to see it deteriorate more.

EDIT: Would people rather have me say that the likes of Cockburn Street and Shorefields was in Toxteth or Dingle?

Well, it's both, but Dingle sounds more accurate.

I thought this was going to be good, but it's ruined by the bright road sign.

Streetlamp is right down the middle too - get out there with a hacksaw later on. ;)

Anyone know the name of this church?

It's on Princes Road. There was no Church Sign.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/227/482017959_75f8745f0e.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/maxmolyneux/482017959/)