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oritelad
02-11-2008, 06:47 PM
hi iam just about ready to start on my wirral closed lines and tunnels website page can anyone please help as i dont have much info on the wirral what closed lines are there and tunnels? a diagram would be a great help.

Lukeo25
02-12-2008, 07:17 AM
here is a list of of closed lines & tunnels & few stations what i know of

Birkenhead Woodside Station
Birkenhead Town
Monks Ferry
Birkenhead Dock Branch
Haymarket Tunnel,Birkenhead
Hooton To West Kirby
Seacombe Branch
Grange Lane,Birkenhead

HollyBlack
02-12-2008, 09:32 AM
here is a list of of closed lines & tunnels & few stations what i know of ...
Add

Shore Road Goods (Cheshire lines, immediately North of Woodside landing stage
Dock Road Goods (CLC)
Dock Road Goods (GCR), both on the Wallasey side of the Great Float, just West of Duke Street bridge.
Huge marshalling yard, GWR, between Morpeth and Wallasey docks
Dock Line to luggage boat section of Seacombe landing stage (disused in 1948)
Bidston Dock, huge sidings and quayside loading tracks for iron ore trains to Summers's Steelworks.
Cammell Laird sidings, used to bring steel plate into the shipyard.


A lot of those are largely forgotten because more used or longer surviving railways were nearby. I can recall being amazed to see inch thick steel plate curved up at an alarming degree while being unloaded from railcars at Lairds in 1974. I was flabbergasted at to how much energy must have been stored in that steel and what a huge dangerous business shipbuilding really is.

As to tunnels, I believe the tunnels to Woodside Station and to Monk's Ferry before than were both of the "cut and cover" types.

EJP
08-06-2009, 01:33 PM
here is a list of of closed lines & tunnels & few stations what i know of

Add:
Mollington Street Depot

...which, incidentally, I feel that the site should be redeveloped as Birkenhead Central high level mainline terminus - with 25kV OHLC electrification to Chester & Crewe! You could stick a big multistorey shopping & office concourse on top of it, if you want. :slywink:

merseywail
08-06-2009, 09:58 PM
Just had a look on your site, you say there may have been a tunnell between central & the museum. I can say that is wrong, they used a door at the back for the old trains. There is no way any railway company would build a tunnell just to deliver relics to a museum.

Waterways
08-06-2009, 10:08 PM
Add:
Mollington Street Depot

...which, incidentally, I feel that the site should be redeveloped as Birkenhead Central high level mainline terminus - with 25kV OHLC electrification to Chester & Crewe! You could stick a big multistorey shopping & office concourse on top of it, if you want. :slywink:

Mollington St is best used to connect Merseyrail to Wirral Waters. See:
http://www.liverpoolwiki.org/Extending_Rapid_Transit_Merseyrail

To Crew? Mainline? All mainline in Merseyside runs from Lime St accessed via rapid-transit Merseyrail. Chester is accessed via Merseyrail.

EJP
08-09-2009, 12:08 AM
Mollington St is best used to connect Merseyrail to Wirral Waters. See:
http://www.liverpoolwiki.org/Extending_Rapid_Transit_Merseyrail

To Crew? Mainline? All mainline in Merseyside runs from Lime St accessed via rapid-transit Merseyrail. Chester is accessed via Merseyrail.

Apologies for moving the thread OT... (Where else can we discuss this?)

Better to reinstate the dock branch track along Beaufort Road to Bidston. Else use the track at Bidston Dock-Birkenhead North, then join to the north side of East & West float. Which then gives Wirral Waters access from West Kirby, New Brighton, Deeside etc. Otherwise you'd be wasting town-central real estate & have Wirral Waters only inwards facing Liverpool, not with a railway facing the rest of Wirral! The Canning St. North-Mollington Link track would be better put to use for the Wirral Transport Museum. Also, will Lime Street be big enough, in the future, to serve the area as the only mainline inter-city terminus? If Wirral Waters is going to be big, then stick an inter-city rail terminus on the right (i.e. the left!) side of the river.


By the way, back on-topic, some more to add:
Seacombe & Poulton railway stations. The Kingsway tunnel cutting was originally the site of the railway line to Seacombe.
Bidston used to have a coal & goods yard, & more platforms, as well as an engine shed. Site of Birkenhead (Bidston) Shed (http://www.steamsheds.co.uk/static/sheds/shed_z143.html)
Upton used to have a coal yard on the Somerfield site.
West Kirby used to be a much bigger station, before the Hooton line was ripped up. The site of West Kirby Concourse connected Hooton through to Hoylake & also served as a goods yard.

Waterways
08-09-2009, 12:30 AM
Apologies for moving the thread OT... (Where else can we discuss this?)

Better to reinstate the dock branch track along Beaufort Road to Bidston. Else use the track at Bidston Dock-Birkenhead North, then join to the north side of East & West float. Which then gives Wirral Waters access from West Kirby, New Brighton, Deeside etc. Otherwise you'd be wasting town-central real estate & have Wirral Waters only inwards facing Liverpool, not with a railway facing the rest of Wirral! The Canning St. North-Mollington Link track would be better put to use for the Wirral Transport Museum. Also, will Lime Street be big enough, in the future, to serve the area as the only mainline inter-city terminus? If Wirral Waters is going to be big, then stick an inter-city rail terminus on the right (i.e. the left!) side of the river.

This doesn't make sense. Wirral Waters has to face Liverpool and be connected by rapid-transit rail to Liverpool Waters, Liverpool city centre and the airport. Otherwise it will flop. Developers most certianly will not spend unless rapid-transit rail is run in - as was the case in London Docklands.

To get to south Wirral is easy and no station change. To get to West Kirkby, etc, there is one change at Hamilton Square. All done cheaply and easily by connecting with Merseyrail at Mollington St/B'head Central.

Attempting to get Wirral Waters to make Wallasey/B'head as some sort of rival city to Liverpool will not work. The Wirral in effect is a suburb of Liverpool. It must integrate with Liverpool first and foremost as it will become the centre of the Wirral.



Also, will Lime Street be big enough, in the future, to serve the area as the only mainline inter-city terminus? If Wirral Waters is going to be big, then stick an inter-city rail terminus on the right (i.e. the left!) side of the river.


The idea was that only one mainline station would serve the area. Lime St can cope with more traffic with greater throughput by using Edge Hill as a staging area for waiting trains, that means trains only drop off and load and do not wait around. Local services can be removed from the station by reusing either Wapping or Waterloo tunnels taking the trains from the east into Central or Waterloo Dock. This releases platforms at Lime St.

The Wirral does not need an inter-city station at all, as Lime St is a few minutes away by metro.

EJP
08-09-2009, 12:45 AM
This doesn't make sense. Wirral Waters has to face Liverpool and be connected by rapid-transit rail to Liverpool Waters, Liverpool city centre and the airport. Otherwise it will flop.

...and Birkenhead Park isn't close enough... :D


Lime St can cope with more traffic with greater throughput by using Edge Hill as a staging area for waiting trains

Having to make use of Edge Hill, as a semi-overflow, would mean that Lime Street is already at capacity. Hence, the area needs more mainline capacity. Wirral has a population of 310,000, larger than for instance Warrington, Preston, Coventry, Leicester, Newcastle, York, Southampton or Milton Keynes, yet doesn't have this facility, on home ground, since Birkenhead Woodside Station has gone. Why should 10% of the cost of travelling by train, to London or Scotland, have to be in crossing one mile of the Mersey?

Waterways
08-09-2009, 03:19 AM
...and Birkenhead Park isn't close enough... :D


No it is not. The station has to be right into the complex to be a success, as they are in London's Docklands. Wirral Waters is to be at Vittoria Dock and East Float.



Having to make use of Edge Hill, as a semi-overflow, would mean that Lime Street is already at capacity.


It would not. It would mean Lime St can have a higher throughput and the region still only has one mainline station, of expensive stations elsewhere.

mainline stations will always be central Liverpool.



Hence, the area needs more mainline capacity. Wirral has a population of 310,000, larger than for instance Warrington, Preston, Coventry, Leicester, Newcastle, York, Southampton or Milton Keynes, yet doesn't have this facility, on home ground, since Birkenhead Woodside Station has gone.


Because the Wirral has a rapid-transit metro network, which they do not.

The Beeching plan in the early 1960's determined that all long distance routes to and from Merseyside will be be run from Lime Street Station. A new electric hybrid metro/commuter rail system, Merseyrail, would service Lime Street Station from all Merseyside. This entailed closing terminal stations: High Level Liverpool Central Station, Liverpool Exchange, Liverpool Riverside and Birkenhead Woodside.

The Loop and Link tunnels in Liverpool centre merged the separate local rail systems into one metro network. Two lines were created, the Northern Line and the Wirral Line. All this merging of different railways to give all access to Lime St gained Merseyside a rapid-transit metro system.



Why should 10% of the cost of travelling by train, to London or Scotland, have to be in crossing one mile of the Mersey?

Pricing is a different issue and the cost is too high. Those on the Liverpool side have to pay the same rates as well.

scouse smurf
08-09-2009, 10:25 AM
...and Birkenhead Park isn't close enough... :D

Anyone with a bit of sense would go to Hamilton sq anyway coz of the extra trains u can get there

EJP
08-09-2009, 03:17 PM
The station has to be right into the complex to be a success.

Bidston to Duke Street & along Corporation Road. The track is already in place. As is the Bidston Dock-Bidston route. There is no need to use any of the route east of Canning Street North. The only time that the Canning Street North-Mollington Link would be useful for rapid transit, is if there was a mainline station at the Mollington Street depot site. The mainline would then be more elegantly linked into Wirral Waters, & the rest of Wirral, than your proposal.


mainline stations will always be central Liverpool
You're selling me the raw end of the deal, mate! That being, some are more equal than others.


Those on the Liverpool side have to pay the same rates as well.

No they don't. Central Liverpudlians have the option of walking to Lime Street. Anyone living at or near Hamilton Square has to pay to get over the river to Lime Street, by whatever means of transport they use. I put it to you that so long as Wirral is regarded as secondary to Liverpool, then you'd be continuing to create a structure for the economic failure of central Birkenhead - & that failure would then include Wirral Waters. Just because you'd be putting a lot of new buildings up, does not guarantee long-term economic prosperity. All it'd guarantee is that there would be a lot of buildings! Now, take a look at London. London has mainline stations on both sides of the Thames, each serving different directions. Why cannot the Mersey conurbation work in the same way?

Waterways
08-09-2009, 04:24 PM
Bidston to Duke Street & along Corporation Road. The track is already in place. As is the Bidston Dock-Bidston route. There is no need to use any of the route east of Canning Street North. The only time that the Canning Street North-Mollington Link would be useful for rapid transit, is if there was a mainline station at the Mollington Street depot site. The mainline would then be more elegantly linked into Wirral Waters, & the rest of Wirral, than your proposal.


You obviously don't get it. The old freight lines ran over roads and the likes, more or less like trams. A rapid-transit rail system is a segregated, uninterrupted line, so that would mean fencing off the line. To bring a line in from Bidston would mean dividing the community, as surface rail lines tend to do.

Wirral Water is to be at the East Float and the commercial section at West Float. Commercial rail can enter via the west from Bidston and passenger rail from he east via the old Dock Branch line from Mollington St. All makes sense.

Birkenhead is NOT going to get its own mainline station, as Lime St serves the Wirral very well. It is easy for most people on the Wirral to get to Lime St than most people in Liverpool. Lime St can take a lot more mainline trains than now. Only when Lime St cannot cope and extension cannot occur, then will another mainline station be considered. That will most probably be Exchange station, with its own underground station as the Northern Line tracks are under the station.



I put it to you that so long as Wirral is regarded as secondary to Liverpool, then you'd be creating a structure for failure - & that failure would include Wirral Waters.


All surrounding towns are secondary to Liverpool, they are in the same socio/economic sphere. Liverpool is the economic generator. Get used to it as that is the way it is. The Wirral should be incorporated into Liverpool and make it all one city. The Wirral will benefit then. Look at the state of Birkenhead.

People in Liverpool and beyond pay the same rail rates as those in the Wirral. Only those who live a short walk from Lime St do not pay, and those are few and far between. If they have bags they will not walk.



Now, take a look at London. London has mainline stations on both sides of the Thames, each serving different directions. Why cannot the Mersey conurbation work in the same way?

London is massive. You may have noticed. ;) It needs lots of mainline stations, Merseyside can cope with one large station, where all the destinations are at one point, which makes matters better for all. Read what I wrote about the creation of Merseyrail and why all mainline stations, bar one, were got rid of.

Forget it, the Wirral WILL NOT have a mainline station built. It will just not happen. It is madness to build one there.

EJP
08-09-2009, 04:36 PM
Wirral Water is to be at the East Float and the commercial section at West Float.

All of those bulk carriers, coming into dock, must make a lovely view from the top floor of a skyscraper. Make sure that they don't bump into your yacht!


Forget it, the Wirral WILL NOT have a mainline station built. It will just not happen. It is madness to build one there.

If you're so right, carry on, then. :034: :D

Waterways
08-09-2009, 04:57 PM
All of those bulk carriers, coming into dock, must make a lovely view from the top floor of a skyscraper. Make sure that they don't bump into your yacht!

That is the plan. I think a bulk carrier would make a great sight sailing past high-rises.

http://www.peelwaters.co.uk/images/W_SectorC-11.jpg

Understand how and why Merseyrail came about. A new mainline station is not going to be built in the Wirral because you think it is a separate entity to Liverpool - it is not so get over it.

Good old Wirral petty snobbery raising its head, looking down on Liverpool. I can never understand why they have the attitude they have when looking at the Wirral. There is only about three decent buildings in the whole place. Liverpool has nothing like Birkenhead. Look at the sight Liverpudlians have to look at across the river, and then look at what they see. That says it all.

scouse smurf
08-10-2009, 12:14 AM
That is the plan. I think a bulk carrier would make a great sight sailing past high-rises.

http://www.peelwaters.co.uk/images/W_SectorC-11.jpg

Understand how and why Merseyrail came about. A new mainline station is not going to be built in the Wirral because you think it is a separate entity to Liverpool - it is not so get over it.

Good old Wirral petty snobbery raising its head, looking down on Liverpool. I can never understand why they have the attitude they have when looking at the Wirral. There is only about three decent buildings in the whole place. Liverpool has nothing like Birkenhead. Look at the sight Liverpudlians have to look at across the river, and then look at what they see. That says it all.

I've not been in it myself, but supposedly the park is pretty good over there

pablo42
08-10-2009, 12:19 AM
I've not been in it myself, but supposedly the park is pretty good over there

Which park? There's a few over here looking over Liverpool.

scouse smurf
08-10-2009, 12:21 AM
Birkenhead park, the one central park in New York was based on.. or something like that

pablo42
08-10-2009, 12:44 AM
Birkenhead park, the one central park in New York was based on.. or something like that

Can't see Liverpool from there. Best one is Vale Park or the Green Hill, both in Wallasey. The park in Rock Ferry is good too, see Liverpool from there. Eastham also good for South Liverpool and the airport.

scouse smurf
08-10-2009, 12:48 AM
I just meant something good the Wirral has got. I'm sure I read u could see right across the Mersey when that park was first built, or whatever u do to a park

pablo42
08-10-2009, 12:53 AM
I just meant something good the Wirral has got. I'm sure I read u could see right across the Mersey when that park was first built, or whatever u do to a park

Not when it was concieved anyhow. Birkenhead Park has just been done up. How long it lasts is anyones business. There seems a concerted effort to wreck by the Hooligans

scouse smurf
08-10-2009, 12:56 AM
Not when it was concieved anyhow. Birkenhead Park has just been done up. How long it lasts is anyones business. There seems a concerted effort to wreck by the Hooligans

How about any graffitist caught has the inside and outside of their place covered in graffiti :)

pablo42
08-10-2009, 12:58 AM
Smurf, it's not generally that big a problem in Birkenhead Park. The problem there seems to be just wanton destruction. They are, the hooigans, doing quite well.

scouse smurf
08-10-2009, 01:09 AM
Smurf, it's not generally that big a problem in Birkenhead Park. The problem there seems to be just wanton destruction. They are, the hooigans, doing quite well.

How about they have legs and arms broke, if caught ? lol

pablo42
08-10-2009, 01:15 AM
How about they have legs and arms broke, if caught ? lol

Reckon so. That shoulda happened twenty years ago. Reckon the punishments shoulda increased too. By now it woulda been instant death. Still too good for most of them.

Scouse Greg
08-18-2009, 08:14 PM
You obviously don't get it. The old freight lines ran over roads and the likes, more or less like trams. A rapid-transit rail system is a segregated, uninterrupted line, so that would mean fencing off the line. To bring a line in from Bidston would mean dividing the community, as surface rail lines tend to do.

Wirral Water is to be at the East Float and the commercial section at West Float. Commercial rail can enter via the west from Bidston and passenger rail from he east via the old Dock Branch line from Mollington St. All makes sense.

Birkenhead is NOT going to get its own mainline station, as Lime St serves the Wirral very well. It is easy for most people on the Wirral to get to Lime St than most people in Liverpool. Lime St can take a lot more mainline trains than now. Only when Lime St cannot cope and extension cannot occur, then will another mainline station be considered. That will most probably be Exchange station, with its own underground station as the Northern Line tracks are under the station.



All surrounding towns are secondary to Liverpool, they are in the same socio/economic sphere. Liverpool is the economic generator. Get used to it as that is the way it is. The Wirral should be incorporated into Liverpool and make it all one city. The Wirral will benefit then. Look at the state of Birkenhead.

People in Liverpool and beyond pay the same rail rates as those in the Wirral. Only those who live a short walk from Lime St do not pay, and those are few and far between. If they have bags they will not walk.



London is massive. You may have noticed. ;) It needs lots of mainline stations, Merseyside can cope with one large station, where all the destinations are at one point, which makes matters better for all. Read what I wrote about the creation of Merseyrail and why all mainline stations, bar one, were got rid of.

Forget it, the Wirral WILL NOT have a mainline station built. It will just not happen. It is madness to build one there.

The reason why London has so many stations is that during the railway boom in the 1800's the City Of London refused permission for railways to cross the city. Virtually all the lines end approx a mile away from the financial district.