Tribeca [Great George Street Project]

[RoddersUK]

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x49/Rodders-UK/george.jpg

Planning permission has been granted for a project by Alison Brooks Architects — part of a scheme by Urban Splash believed to be Liverpool’s biggest-ever residential development.

ABA’s 93-apartment, sand-stone-clad scheme is the first phase of the 740-home Great George Street project — a new quarter intended to serve as a southern gateway into the city, which this month celebrates becoming 2008 European Capital of Culture.

A second phase, clad in pink, is being designed by Shed KM (to right of picture) and a third by 2006 Yaya winner Querkraft.

“We’ve designed a point building, an optimistic beacon that signals the start of the new urban quarter,” said practice director Alison Brooks.

http://www.bdonline.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=426&storycode=3103483&c=2&encCode=000000000142981a

[Ged]

That Monarch building looks a bit out of place there but glad they're keeping it. Might have looked better if the place to the left of it was lower than it so it was stepped down into the bend.

[kevin]

That Monarch building looks a bit out of place there but glad they're keeping it. Might have looked better if the place to the left of it was lower than it so it was stepped down into the bend.

My uncle used to have an antique shop, pretty much were the photo is taken from. The old buidling in the middle was were he banked - Barclays I think it was.

[Cadfael]

What an ugly mess. I'm sure it'll fit in well with Liverpool Cathedral on one side and St James' Church on the other side.

Wonder how much LCC was given in a brown envelope for this? :rolleyes:

[Ged]

Yeah, that tall being might be a bit too tall for that area and why does it have an aeroplane going through it?

[DaisyChains]

I'm sorry but that is appalling.

More apartments???????????????

How original!

Just to think they knocked the David Lewis building down in the same sort of vicinity, and now we are getting this sort of rubbish.

[Paul D]

It's clad in sandstone it should look good.We need more apartments to have a bustling city centre,maybe one day we'll be a 24 hour city and this is the only way to achieve that.

[wallasey]

Its a shame that the last century saw all those quaint Georgian townhouses cleared around the lower slopes of the Anglican Cathedral. Thats what we should see; a nice mixture of new and old. Although we are sort of getting the same effect here; I doubt pink buildings are what we want. Salford might though; they seem to like pink at the moment!

Will this add to the Chinatown area??? It does need a little bit of TLC I am sure you will all admit?

[christy]

I think this is a good development and one that will really help this area. A lot of the new housing being built is housing association and so will be aimed at people who couldn't normally afford to live in these sorts of development. It will also aid the redevelopment of chinatown as an increase in population that has to walk through china town to get into town can only encourage more business to open in the area to capture the local and passing trade.
The scale of the buildings is also spot on. The only problem is that they should be looking across a park that rises up to the Anglican cathedral insttead of the nasty 80s student housing that is inbetween the site and the cathedral now

[verdi]

Can't say I like them at all ! and more apartments? If you go down the road a bit new places are still empty from last year!! Are these so called architecs just getting out of college or something? I mean, a load of primary shool kids would draw somethinmg like those?? Decent houses, with gardens!! Well that's my rant for today, oh and I'm not Irish, or don't think I am, lovely people though. :)

[marky]

Another section of flats, near the 'Blackie', are getting demolished at the moment.

[Kev]

£100m plan to revive rundown area and create new city gateway

Feb 14 2008 by Vicky Anderson, Liverpool Daily Post

DEVELOPER Urban Splash will today unveil plans for the biggest housing scheme ever to be created in Liverpool by a single developer.

The £100m redevelopment of Great George Street, next to the Anglican Cathedral, will create a striking new gateway to the city, incorporating shops, businesses, a hotel, and 740 apartments and houses.

The Liverpool office of Urban Splash is behind the project on the five-acre site, which has been named Tribeca.

It will take eight years to complete in six phases, and incorporate the efforts of at least three architects’ practices.

The first phase of 141 apart-ments, 36 of which will be shared ownership, and 10 social houses for displaced residents, will begin by late spring.

Simon Humphreys, develop-ment director at Urban Splash’s Liverpool office, said: “Our vision is to make Great George Street a residential thriving commercial street again, and give it a proper identity as a gateway to the city.”

It is hoped that every space along the street at ground level – from the already established Wedding House at one end, to the Blackie at the other – will be given over to retail and business oppor-tunities. Planning permission for a hotel has already been approved.

For residents of the 20 social houses and the one, two and three-bedroomed apartments targeted at first-time buyers, there will be underground parking, private balconies and use of a one-acre private “pocket park”.

It is Urban Splash’s biggest investment in Liverpool to date, and is thought to be the biggest residential scheme ever under-taken in the city by one developer.

Mr Humphreys said: “City centre flats get a bad press, but we always believed that if it is the right type of apartment and right kind of quality, it will sell.

“All those perceived downsides to living in the city centre won’t be here. The whole package will make it a success. We invest in our architecture, we want them to be exciting places to live, and if we get it right, people will be queuing up to live here.”

Residents on the site have been involved in each stage of the development, meeting with archi-tects and choosing their favourite features for their new homes.

Mr Humphreys said: “Those people who are being moved out of their homes are being provided with something far superior and have been involved. They have all taken ownership and know exact-ly where they are going to live.

“It is not often an opportunity like this arrives to really make a difference in one area of a city. It is not change for change’s sake, we are taking what is not working and replacing it to improve the area in a way that will definitely be to the betterment of the city.”

Mark Sidebotham, director of Liverpool architects Shed KM, which is involved in the scheme, said: “The masterplan was all about trying to create some good- quality space – with a private garden, good, natural light and views, and a balcony that people can actually use – that will have more of an attraction for people to come and live in the city centre.”

Alison Brooks Architects was inspired by the cathedral for its input into the scheme.

Ms Brooks said: “We wanted to re-interpret the Neo-Gothic Victor-ian architecture in this area of the city and take it a step further.

“We’re really excited about par-ticipating in creating a new urban neighbourhood with the scale and density and architectural quality that puts it on a par with the great boulevards of Continental cities.

“The aim is to extend the centre of the city to the south so the area becomes a gateway into Liverpool, and a destination in itself.”

Riverside ward councillor Steve Munby, a member of the Liverpool Partnership who has pushed for the scheme, said: “Great George Street is a key entrance to the city and it’s pretty disgusting. The res-idents’ general verdict was any-thing is better than what we have got at the moment. It is desperate.

“It is a fantastic scheme and Urban Splash have done a great job. I’ve been one of the sternest critics on unwanted flats, but they are helping fund social housing for local residents and are not just coming in to rip off the city. I think it’s going to bring this part of the city back to life. I’m proud we have managed to achieve it.”

Urban Splash, in conjunction with industry journal the AJ, is today launching a competition to find a young architect under 35 to design Tribeca’s sales office, which will also be on site.

vickyanderson

[DaisyChains]

I hope they do keep up the theory of giving people balconies they can use.
Alot of the balconies where I live are for show. What's the point in that?
Also, they mention gardens, this would be great. But I fear it will be only for the houses and not the apartments.
Green spaces are ok to look at, but there is no point.
I wish developers would build more actual houses.
I can't afford to buy a house at all and so there is no chance of me getting a garden at all.

[Kev]

Here's a panoramic view of the whole Great George Street area:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2247/2268412371_44a22c5a73.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/2268412371/sizes/o/)

Viewing of the larger version (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/2268412371/sizes/o/) [too big for the forum] is recommended! Click here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/2268412371/sizes/o/).

[danensis]

I visited Liverpool briefly last November, for the first time in twenty years or so.

Apart from the developers appearing to have succeeded where the Luftwaffe failed, the sad thing to me was that, in most of the new development, it looked just like every other city centre. I could have been anywhere. I walked down Duke Street, and all those characterful warehouses and merchant's houses were still derelict, and many had been cleared and replaced by anonymous red brick and glass boxes.

I think perhaps we should lock up all the architects in an asylum somewhere and give them a kiddies construction kit, and leave design to someone who knows what a home should look like.

John

[RoddersUK]

You had better lock up the planning department and the clients first.
They are the ones with no design training who give everything the green light.

[Waterways]

http://www.building.co.uk/Pictures/436xAny/h/s/y/urban_splash_tribenca_2.jpg

http://www.building.co.uk/Pictures/316xAny/q/t/u/urban_splash_tribenca_1.jpg

http://www.building.co.uk/Pictures/316xAny/k/v/j/urban_splash_3.jpg

http://www.building.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=284&storycode=3106464&c=3&encCode=00000000014585e2

Looks like the Parliament St underground station will have to be brought back into use.

[Harry]

I think this looks fantastic.
What's the matter with everyone?
We seem to have arrived at a point where nothing pleases anyone.
Vast areas of the city have been a dump since the old ways of shipping collapsed half a century ago. There is nothing wrong with building places for people to live, cities are nothing without people. Virtually everything (pubs, libraries, schools, doctors, hospitals, shops, bus routes etc) have collapsed in north Liverpool because of the lack of people! You can walk from Bootle to Liverpool city centre along Netherfield Road and not pass a single person on the way.
It seems to me that if any new development is not two stories high, square or rectangular and made of ugly red brick, people complain.
The attitude of too many people within the city is backward: no wonder we still have large pockets of the worst deprivation of any British city.
I think this is perfect in scale and design for this southern entrance to city centre. Well done to the council for giving it planning permission.

[John(Zappa)]

To me it looks like Tellytubby land and buildings.Put a lambanana there!

[John(Zappa)]

I visited Liverpool briefly last November, for the first time in twenty years or so.

Apart from the developers appearing to have succeeded where the Luftwaffe failed, the sad thing to me was that, in most of the new development, it looked just like every other city centre. I could have been anywhere. I walked down Duke Street, and all those characterful warehouses and merchant's houses were still derelict, and many had been cleared and replaced by anonymous red brick and glass boxes.

I think perhaps we should lock up all the architects in an asylum somewhere and give them a kiddies construction kit, and leave design to someone who knows what a home should look like.

John

Well said:PDT_Piratz_26:

[lindylou]

I think this looks fantastic.
What's the matter with everyone?
We seem to have arrived at a point where nothing pleases anyone.
Vast areas of the city have been a dump since the old ways of shipping collapsed half a century ago. There is nothing wrong with building places for people to live, cities are nothing without people. Virtually everything (pubs, libraries, schools, doctors, hospitals, shops, bus routes etc) have collapsed in north Liverpool because of the lack of people! You can walk from Bootle to Liverpool city centre along Netherfield Road and not pass a single person on the way.
It seems to me that if any new development is not two stories high, square or rectangular and made of ugly red brick, people complain.
The attitude of too many people within the city is backward: no wonder we still have large pockets of the worst deprivation of any British city.
I think this is perfect in scale and design for this southern entrance to city centre. Well done to the council for giving it planning permission.

The plans look fine to me. They may as well built something there as leave it looking the way it does now.

You are right about saying you can walk along Netherfield rd and not see a soul. It's got a desolate feel about the place. No life or atmosphere.

[Ged]

I often walk up and down there looking for someone but i've just heard the prozzies have been moved to by Crown Street, is this right Chippie?

[petromax]

...What's the matter with everyone?...It seems to me that if any new development is not two stories high, square or rectangular and made of ugly red brick, people complain....

Agree. If some people want to live in two storey noddy boxes then they should, but not IN the city - this is what suburbs are for. Set aside the newness of the architecture and look at what it does - I really like the scale onto the street. It looks like part of a city. If anything I would close the gaps between the buildings to make it look denser and build more where the garden is shown (4/5 storeys, family homes, granny flats, local schools, doctors, a pub...)

I think the Eldonian Village (which everyone loves) is literally a waste of space in the city and the Park Road housing area (Cornwallis estate??) the same.

This scheme is a great move for this part of town and I do hope it and others will get James Street Station open in a hub of lively streets.

[AK1]

There is no doubt that there are areas of the ity that look like they could be anywhere, this has always been the case for 100's of years, no matter what city your in. It is also the case that alot of areas are very unique and have unique buildings such as unity, beetham west, the arena, new museum, chavasse park and numerous older buildings such as the cathedrals.

[petromax]

...I think perhaps we should lock up all the architects in an asylum somewhere and give them a kiddies construction kit, and leave design to someone who knows what a home should look like...

I am very happy that you alone amongst the world's great thinkers on the subject know precisely what a home should look like and that you are so absolutely sure that everyone agrees with you. Perhaps you might tell us what such a home might look like so that we can marvel at your brilliance.

[PhilipG]

Quote: from Ged:
"Yeah, that tall being might be a bit too tall for that area and why does it have an aeroplane going through it?"

I agree the tower is too tall.
The former bank will still be the most interesting building from that angle, but I quite like the render.
The hoardings have just been put up, so it looks like it might actually happen.
Why "Tribeca"?

Why the areoplane?
Well, the 9/11 tribute panels are still there (until they fade away).



Quote: From Petromax:
"I think the Eldonian Village (which everyone loves) is literally a waste of space in the city and the Park Road housing area (Cornwallis estate??) the same."

The above are not in the "City".
The Eldonian is justly praised.
Why don't you like it?

I don't know what housing in Park Road you're referring to (none is called Cornwallis), but I'd be more than happy to live in anything that's been built recently in (or near) Park Road.

[Ged]

Someone on another site is also advocating the destruction of a residential area on byrom street because this too is in the city centre. Generations of residents who've lived in this area since the courts are still living here and don't want their homes bulldozed for what... more high rise apartment blocks that won't be for them or office blocks that have never existed in that area in the first place? The Eldonian is built on what was Tate & Lyle - short on that coming back, what else deserves to be there. Since Bootle (and therefore Sefton) is beyond the boundary at Kirkdale to the north, the city is heavily weighted to the south and east of the city centre anyway.

[petromax]

Someone on another site is also advocating the destruction of a residential area on byrom street because this too is in the city centre. Generations of residents who've lived in this area since the courts are still living here and don't want their homes bulldozed for what... more high rise apartment blocks that won't be for them or office blocks that have never existed in that area in the first place? The Eldonian is built on what was Tate & Lyle - short on that coming back, what else deserves to be there. Since Bootle (and therefore Sefton) is beyond the boundary at Kirkdale to the north, the city is heavily weighted to the south and east of the city centre anyway.

This is a good question. It needs a full answer but I'll be as quick as I can here.

When this city was truly wealthy and prosperous the land at both the 'justly praised' Eldonian Village and the Park Road housing was in the engine room of the city's economy.

Tate and Lyle was a significant contributor to the economic health and wealth of the city but even at that, was just a part of a great port hinterland stretching from the Victorian city centre to (just south of) Seaforth. Similarly in the south, Park Road was at the very start of the commercial success of the port. The previous value of the land as a power house of the city's economy was not incalculable, but it was huge.

Looking at the relative value of the land now and its contribution to the wealth of the city, let's say for the sake of argument, that an acre in the Eldonian Village is worth £1m. So that's an indirect contribution to the city purse, for the good of the area, of rates on a £1m. Permanent jobs created? - a few, painters decorators, plumbers; Shopkeeper jobs? - no, no shops. Teachers? - no, no schools (except a nursery school); so maybe some but not much, let's say it's negligible in a broader context (although significant for the few that work there). The number of people housed in above-average accommodation with gardens and good services - a few hundred? a thousand or so? Value as a source of significant employment and raising the profile of the city as a serious place in which to invest - nil.

Simplistically, it's worth to the well-being of the city is - good homes for a thousand or so and rates on a £1m, give or take.

If we want the city to stay where it is then there'll be more of this (maybe, but without inward investment doubtful) and that's all we can do. Carry on to fill all this former wealth-creating land with low-contribution housing and you might end up with a slightly bigger population on a slow decline to nowhere when the subsidies run out.

If however you want the city to be great and prosperous again you could think about regenerating the area on a more sustainable scale.

Unfortunately and as you imply, we don't refine sugar anymore, so that's not coming back, but there are new economies. Let's say sufficient interest was attracted to develop the same land to create housing for 10 times the number of people and five times the number of jobs in the 'Knowledge Economy' (for one); More good housing? - yes. More jobs? - yes (and spin-offs in new schools, shops, health clinics, libraries, pubs, betting shops, laundrettes, dry cleaners...). Higher profile in an international market for investment? - yes, and a city back on the road (but this time with a better distribution of wealth)

If people want to live in suburban houses, then fine - they will be welcomed in suburbia. Building low-value use on potential high value property is the economy of the madhouse. And we all know who we have to thank for this particular strand of insanity.

The economic centre needs critical mass to be successful. It is no place for noddy boxes. Byrom Street as for Eldonian Village. The underutilisation of this land for the benefit of the few at the expense of the many is selfish.

[PhilipG]

Hi Petromax.

So, instead of building houses on sites in the inner cities, what are you suggesting should be built instead?

It sounds like you're suggesting industrial sites.
Admittedly the Eldonian Village was built on the Tate & Lyle site, but even you admit sugar refining won't be returning to Liverpool.
Nor will most of the other industries which have vanished.

Quote:
"Similarly in the south, Park Road was at the very start of the commercial success of the port. The previous value of the land as a power house of the city's economy was not incalculable, but it was huge."

This needs some explanation, please.
Park Road was always a shopping area, with the neighbourhood being mainly residential.
Apart from flour milling and Cains (which I'm charitably including as "Park Road", even though they're not) the area was never as you describe it.

Tourism, demolition and new buildings seem to be the way Liverpool is heading.
Certainly in the City Centre.

[Samp]

http://www.building.co.uk/Pictures/436xAny/h/s/y/urban_splash_tribenca_2.jpg

http://www.building.co.uk/Pictures/316xAny/q/t/u/urban_splash_tribenca_1.jpg

http://www.building.co.uk/Pictures/316xAny/k/v/j/urban_splash_3.jpg

http://www.building.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=284&storycode=3106464&c=3&encCode=00000000014585e2

Looks like the Parliament St underground station will have to be brought back into use.


It looks like a film set for Lord of the Rings!

[petromax]

Thanks PhilipG


Hi Petromax.

So, instead of building houses on sites in the inner cities, what are you suggesting should be built instead?

It sounds like you're suggesting industrial sites.
Admittedly the Eldonian Village was built on the Tate & Lyle site, but even you admit sugar refining won't be returning to Liverpool.
Nor will most of the other industries which have vanished..

The UK lives in a post-industrial age. We can't compete with China in low-end (low-value) manufacturing indutries. Our future economies will be based on high-end, high-value technologies and 'industries'. These tend to be in media, service (including tourism, insurance finance and the professions), research, development, design and 'intellectual' property ie labs, studios, leisure and offices as places to work. I am suggesting medium density living (central Amsterdam, Paris...) and low density leisure.



Quote:
"Similarly in the south, Park Road was at the very start of the commercial success of the port. The previous value of the land as a power house of the city's economy was not incalculable, but it was huge."

This needs some explanation, please.
Park Road was always a shopping area, with the neighbourhood being mainly residential.
Apart from flour milling and Cains (which I'm charitably including as "Park Road", even though they're not) the area was never as you describe it..

Heaps flour mill was one of the last port industries in the area. Park Road originally ran straight down to the Old Dock. There was a plethora of residences/ residence warehouses, warehouses and maritime support industries (rope making, chandleries – Lamb’s was the last to go…?) between Duke Street and Park Road, all the way up to and past Cains. A powerful hub of commerce before the really amazing development of the North End as the heart of the port up to 1938.


Tourism, demolition and new buildings seem to be the way Liverpool is heading.
Certainly in the City Centre.

Nothing wrong with tourism and leisure - one facility in Cape Town has 21m visitors a year. Lego Park in Windsor has about the same. 70,000 went to one event in Memphis this year. Plenty of scope to grow for Liverpool.

The Victorian commercial centre is all in the World Heritage Site. Demolition has been very limited. The centre needs new buildings to grow and a suitable use found for the old buildings

[Paul D]

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/2144/ggsshot1ausschnittni3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Kev]

Cheers Paul :PDT11

[Paul D]

No problem Kev,I like this a lot.:PDT_Piratz_26:

[PhilipG]

Petromax.

Thanks for your answer.
The misunderstanding stems from you calling Park Lane, Park Road.
Obviously Park Lane is a lot nearer the City Centre than Park Road.
Curiously Park Lane hardly has any buildings on it at all these days, while Park Road has seen quite a lot of new development in the past few years.

[petromax]

Petromax.

Thanks for your answer.
The misunderstanding stems from you calling Park Lane, Park Road.
Obviously Park Lane is a lot nearer the City Centre than Park Road.
Curiously Park Lane hardly has any buildings on it at all these days, while Park Road has seen quite a lot of new development in the past few years.

Of course; you are right. This is where I meant:

http://i31.tinypic.com/wl2n8n.jpg

[Paul D]

The redevelopment of the Great George Street estate in Liverpool 1 by developers Urban Splash has started on site. The £100 million scheme is the largest housing scheme to be created in Liverpool by one single developer.

The scheme, which will eventually comprise 748 apartments, 15 houses and 80,000 sq ft of commercial space, is to be branded Tribeca - the TRIangles BElow the CAthedral - because of the shape and location of the site and with a deliberate nod towards the trendy district in New York of the same name.

It will take eight years to complete in six phases, and incorporate the efforts of at least three architects' practices.

In the early stages of the project, little will be seen above ground. The first task will be to fill in the nineteenth century railway tunnel ventilation shaft in the middle of the site. However, it is hoped to have the first units, including 10 houses to rent and 36 apartments for shared ownership, completed by mid 2009.

The scheme has been shepherded through a protracted process of negotiation in respect of the land deal, complex site assembly issue and a challenging planning application.

Simon Humphreys, development director at Urban Splash's Liverpool office, said:

"Our vision is to make Great George Street a residential thriving commercial street again, and give it a proper identity as a gateway to the city."

It is hoped that every space along the street at ground level - from the already established Wedding House at one end, to the Blackie at the other - will be given over to retail and business opportunities. Planning permission for a hotel has already been approved.

For residents of the 20 social houses and the one, two and three-bedroomed apartments targeted at first-time buyers, there will be underground parking, private balconies and use of a one-acre private "pocket park".

Mr Humphreys added:

"City centre flats get a bad press, but we always believed that if it is the right type of apartment and right kind of quality, it will sell.

"All those perceived downsides to living in the city centre won't be here. The whole package will make it a success. We invest in our architecture, we want them to be exciting places to live, and if we get it right, people will be queuing up to live here."

Exisiting residents who live on the site have been involved in each stage of the development, meeting with archi-tects and choosing their favourite features for their new replacement homes.

Mr Humphreys said:

"Those people who are being moved out of their homes are being provided with something far superior and have been involved. They have all taken ownership and know exact-ly where they are going to live.

"It is not often an opportunity like this arrives to really make a difference in one area of a city. It is not change for change's sake, we are taking what is not working and replacing it to improve the area in a way that will definitely be to the betterment of the city."

Riverside ward councillor Steve Munby, a member of the Liverpool Partnership who has pushed for the scheme, said:

"Great George Street is a key entrance to the city and it's pretty disgusting. The residents' general verdict was anything is better than what we have got at the moment. It is desperate.

"It is a fantastic scheme and Urban Splash have done a great job. I've been one of the sternest critics on unwanted flats, but they are helping fund social housing for local residents and are not just coming in to rip off the city. I think it's going to bring this part of the city back to life. I'm proud we have managed to achieve it."

[Paul D]

It's about time another big project got off the ground,it seems like ages since that last happened.

[fortinian]

Birse Rail have put up fences and erected portacabins on the wasteground on Great George Street. Does anyone know why? Is this the beginning of this project or are they doing something else?

[Ged]

All is revealed in post 37 ;)