I dont think I have felt so deflated coming out of Anfield since the Houllier era. Wigan came to defend, we had no ideas of how to break then down and I wasnt the least surprised when their equaliser came with their first shot on target.

Benitez can be criticised for playing 4-5-1, but he obvioulsly doesnt trust crouch, Kuyt or Voronin to do the business hence his formation. Benitez bought those players but they were the best availabe for what could be afforded. Gerrard was a de facto second striker, and his scorign record is far better than any of those whose job it is to find the net - Crouch hasnt scored in the league, Kuyt has scored one from open play.

The long and short of it is we cant compete with Chelsea and United at the moment and they have 3 or 4 £20 million players in their side, whilst Arsenals clever investment in youth is now paying dividends - ours may too in a few years as we have won 2 successive youth cups and are top of the reserve league but fans are demanding success now.

Benitez appealed to Liverpool because he won two titles with Valencia despite the limited resources compared to Barcelona and Real Madrid. So far though, we are no nearer the league to when we had Houllier. Torres has replaced Owen as our world class striker, we still have a world class midfielder in Gerrard. The rest of the team is either Houlliers (Finnan, kewell) or like for like replacements.

Even if Benitez is sacked what will Gillet/Hicks replace him with? Have they even got the money to give to a new manager for big signings? if Liverpool spend big in the way Leeds/Newcastle have and it doesnt bring instant success we are on a downward spiral, but if we dont we risk being overtaken by Man City and Aston Villa and heaven forbid, Everton.

theres an old saying that the sas use , "who dares wins ", benitez won't dare , i think he is a bottler sitting back waiting for his players to show him the way, and it has shown in a few outings lately

This was a banker 4 nil win for me so I didn't even bother watching or listening to it, instead putting the sky round-up on to learn of Wigan's 1st ever point against any of the top 4 which surprised me.

Going into the Arsenal game, Everton were joint 2nd top scorers and it's rare you don't see goals in an Everton game the way we play gung ho which can be exciting but nerve wracking at times (channel 5 just love us in Europe).

Before that 1-4 reverse, you know the one where we played it on the ground and were sucker punched with three 40 yard hoofs - very un Arsenal like and I loved Wenger's excuse that 'we had to play it that way as Everton stopped us playing it on the ground as they were first to everything) - hey ho, our only two defeats in 16 games were to Liverpool (2 pens) and Man Utd (1 pen)

Still.... we've won nothing yet but I can't remember the last time I came away thinking we we're well beaten there and didn't deserve anything.

Liverpool will infuriate by stuffing Marseille then drawing a blank with Portsmouth, my feelings are that 2nd is nowhere - that's what was said in the old days of only less than a decade ago but these days sights are lowered to 4th because it gets you in the CL so now the likes of Everton no longer think they'll ever win the league, only possibly that 2nd tier from 5th downwards but then again, that's the league we're in when it comes to spending too.

My old sparring partner in work always told me that was a rubbish excuse - probably embarrassed by the riches wasted by Houllier in chasing the holy grail. How I laughed at him when one time no hopers (hadn't won the league since the 50s) Chelsea came along and leapfrogged everyone out of nowhere - the reason.... Money!

liverpool aren't in the top 4

1 Arsenal 21 15 5 1 42 16 10 1 0 25 7 5 4 1 17 9 26 50
2 Man Utd 21 15 3 3 38 11 10 1 0 23 3 5 2 3 15 8 27 48
3 Chelsea 21 13 5 3 33 16 6 4 0 20 8 7 1 3 13 8 17 44
4 Man City 21 11 6 4 29 22 9 2 0 19 7 2 4 4 10 15 7 39
5 Liverpool

They were before the game, Man City won too and leap-frogged them.

theyre not top 4 material this year, the gillet / rafa / hicks shyte hasn't even started yet, i reckon in 2 years time they will be struggling to get a 2nd mortgage on anfield and the new stadium will not exist, it's just a hunch.

I think they must be out of contention for the league now, given that they have to travel to all the top 3 when they haven't beaten any of them at Anfield this season and hope those top 3 lose 3 or 4 games whilst winning every single game themselves. Given that it's usual for whoever is top (or certainly 2nd) on new years day to win the league, it is a tall order and they would well deserve it if they won it now. Still, it could be worse, Derby look down even before the christmas decorations.

Look at A.C. Milan languishing mid table, they may have to win the CL to get back into it next season, Inter are certainly upstaging them at the mo.

liverpool has their chance 2 years ago on the crest of the CL win,with money in the bank, when they didn't perform that was the light showing what rafa was made of, i'd have cut him loose a while ago

theyre not top 4 material this year, the gillet / rafa / hicks shyte hasn't even started yet, i reckon in 2 years time they will be struggling to get a 2nd mortgage on anfield and the new stadium will not exist, it's just a hunch.


The thing is Shoney, they probably are top 4 material as take away the top 2 and Chelsea are scraping odd goal wins and are not as on fire as during the last 2 seasons but they have been missing the spine including 2 goalies, Terry, Lampard and Drogba. Even at 4th place there's probably nothing to choose between those from 4th to 7th at the moment so a spurt by any of them would pay dividends, Villa look good and Spurs can't stay that far out of it for too long either.

It amuses me the way people say, such and such a team has yet to hit their bad spell, as if it's guaranteed and also guaranteed that your team won't have one either. Arsenal won their last league undefeated, Man Utd never lose more than 4 in a season, Chelsea haven't lost at home in 2 years etc etc...

I think Liverpool will come 3rd or 4th and/or will win a cup. I hope Everton will win a cup.

theyre not top 4 material this year

So who would you rate above them ? Besides manu, Arsenal and (marginally) Chelsea who else would you rank ahead of Liverpool ?

Man City ? The gulf in class was immense last week, 24 shots to their 4 (not a single one on target, they defended like an away team instead of the team with the best home record in the league.

Portsmouth ?

Villa ?

Everton ?

I'm not happy with the thought of finishing 4th but seriously who would you say had been better than us apart from the 3 that I have mentioned ?

I dont think I have felt so deflated coming out of Anfield since the Houllier era. Wigan came to defend, we had no ideas of how to break then down and I wasnt the least surprised when their equaliser came with their first shot on target.

Benitez can be criticised for playing 4-5-1, but he obvioulsly doesnt trust crouch, Kuyt or Voronin to do the business hence his formation. Benitez bought those players but they were the best availabe for what could be afforded. Gerrard was a de facto second striker, and his scorign record is far better than any of those whose job it is to find the net - Crouch hasnt scored in the league, Kuyt has scored one from open play.

The long and short of it is we cant compete with Chelsea and United at the moment and they have 3 or 4 £20 million players in their side, whilst Arsenals clever investment in youth is now paying dividends - ours may too in a few years as we have won 2 successive youth cups and are top of the reserve league but fans are demanding success now.

Benitez appealed to Liverpool because he won two titles with Valencia despite the limited resources compared to Barcelona and Real Madrid. So far though, we are no nearer the league to when we had Houllier. Torres has replaced Owen as our world class striker, we still have a world class midfielder in Gerrard. The rest of the team is either Houlliers (Finnan, kewell) or like for like replacements.

Even if Benitez is sacked what will Gillet/Hicks replace him with? Have they even got the money to give to a new manager for big signings? if Liverpool spend big in the way Leeds/Newcastle have and it doesnt bring instant success we are on a downward spiral, but if we dont we risk being overtaken by Man City and Aston Villa and heaven forbid, Everton.

I agree, last night was one of the very low points. Benitez has got it spot on in the Champions league but has no idea when it comes to the prem. One up front playing Wian at home would have saw Shanks turning in his grave. Harry Kewell, Kuyt, Vorinin and Crouch will never score enough goals. we are at least two 'world class' forward players away from whats required. Would not be surprised if Benitez quit if the yanks fail to come across with any transfer funds. Look at Chelsea they wont think twice about signing Berbatov at 25 or 30 million should he be available. Trouble is you and I will still be at Anfield for the next home game V Aston Villa. ............Jay

So who would you rate above them ? Besides manu, Arsenal and (marginally) Chelsea who else would you rank ahead of Liverpool ?

Man City ? The gulf in class was immense last week, 24 shots to their 4 (not a single one on target, they defended like an away team instead of the team with the best home record in the league.

Portsmouth ?

Villa ?

Everton ?

I'm not happy with the thought of finishing 4th but seriously who would you say had been better than us apart from the 3 that I have mentioned ?

The table doesn't lie. Man City are above Liverpool so better than them.

That was a terrible result,Liverpool are way behind Man U and Arsenal and to deny that would be part of the problem.

The table doesn't lie. Man City are above Liverpool so better than them.


It may not lie, but it can mislead.
For every game the strength of the opposition differs. So at any given time some teams have been playing stronger teams than others. Only when everyone has played everybody else - the end of the season - is the table a total predictor of who is best.
Of course, throughout the season it is an indicator of who is best, but some discrepancies based upon strength of recent opposition will always exist. Add to that the impact of injuries to key players and batty team selection and not all teams will be in the position they possibly deserve to be in.

Even worse that it was one of the worst defenders...no players, in the prem - Titus Bramble.

Agreed that it is the final table that counts, i'm glad that Everton have 4 of their hardest 6 games out of the way (top 3 twice) for some time and only Arsenal to worry about away. I notice that most of the teams in our area of the table still have some of these hard away games to come.

Hi all

It comes down to quality. Apart from Torres, Gerrard, and Carragher, and maybe Babel on a good day, Liverpool don't have the quality to compete with Manchester United, Arsenal, and Chelsea.

It's a shame but Liverpool this season have demonstrated over and over that they can win big against a weak team but then do badly against a middle of the table team or struggling relegation team.

Manchester United, Arsenal, and Chelsea just have class players throughout the park. Even though at Man U, the likes of O'Shea, Fletcher, and Wes Brown are poorer players, they have enough class players to win the title again this season, although Arsenal are going to run them pretty close.

I think Benitez is on borrowed time, particularly if he does not win the Champion's League this year. Gillett and Hicks have to be looking for other options. Mourinho anyone? Yes he's a big head but I will take him if he can win the Premiership for Liverpool, as I am sure a lot of other Reds supporters would as well if he can bag the Big One for the 'Pool.

All the best

Chris

It may not lie, but it can mislead.


Football fans are amazing. They tell themselves lies and believe them. The table does not lie. Man City are above Liverpool by accumulating more points, which means they are a better team than Liverpool, because Liverpool never accumulated more points than Man City. . That is obvious!!!

Mourinho may come if he can be promised 60 million +, he's seen the good life now and knows that 40m spent this season has not done it. I don't think he'll go back to a Porto and try and win anything with limited resources, he doesn't have to put his reputation on the line like that anymore.

Football fans are amazing. They tell themselves lies and believe them. The table does not lie. Man City are above Liverpool by accumulating more points, which means they are a better team than Liverpool, because Liverpool never accumulated more points than Man City. . That is obvious!!!


Yeh but it still might be transitory. Remember several seasons ago when Everton were leading the league in the first half of the season but then sunk down by the end of the season? On the other hand, I do agree that Manchester City have a fine set of strikers in Elano, Petrov, and Vassell. Liverpool have, er, . . . Torres.

Chris

Football fans are amazing. They tell themselves lies and believe them. The table does not lie. Man City are above Liverpool by accumulating more points, which means they are a better team than Liverpool, because Liverpool never accumulated more points than Man City. . That is obvious!!!

Liverpool have a game in hand that would take them 4th

Mourinho may come if he can be promised 60 million +, he's seen the good life now and knows that 40m spent this season has not done it. I don't think he'll go back to a Porto and try and win anything with limited resources, he doesn't have to put his reputation on the line like that anymore.

If we wish it, he will come. :PDT_Aliboronz_24:

Yeh but it still might be transitory.

Transitory? Do you mean someone is going to take the points away from them as a punishment for being so good?

At this point Man City are better than Liverpool as the have more points. I can't say it any simpler.

Liverpool have a game in hand that would take them 4th

At it again!!!!

Man City are better than Liverpool as the have more points. I can't say it any simpler.

Football fans are amazing. They tell themselves lies and believe them. The table does not lie. Man City are above Liverpool by accumulating more points, which means they are a better team than Liverpool, because Liverpool never accumulated more points than Man City. . That is obvious!!!

Weird logic.

If I knock out Ricky Hatton once and you knock out two 10-year-old kids does that make you twice the boxer that I am?

Extreme example I know but it makes the point. I don't believe Man C are better than Liverpool (and I'm a bluenose) but it's the table in May which will deliver the truth.

Is the FA cup winner the best team in England? Sometime, yes. But sometimes no. Depends upon the strength of opposition they've met on the way.

At it again!!!!

Man City are better than Liverpool as the have more points. I can't say it any simpler.

I agree city are better than Liverpool ( Derby are better than Liverpool in my book :PDT_Aliboronz_24:)

Cup winners are just that - ask Wimbledon, Boro, Coventry - even Everton under Joe Royle - it's why even over 2 legged comps you can lose and still win a cup (and i'm a bluenose too so 4 out of the last 5 posts are all by bluenoses arguing over whether lfc are any good ha ha)

You have to say that whoever is where they are now in the league - are so on merit.

You have to also say that whoever is there at the end of the season are so on merit, but it's that one that counts.

Transitory? Do you mean someone is going to take the points away from them as a punishment for being so good?

At this point Man City are better than Liverpool as the have more points. I can't say it any simpler.

Manchester United are better than Liverpool as they have more points. They will be up there at the top at the end of the season. Yes Manchester City presently edge Liverpool on number of points but will they still be there at the end of the season???? That's the big question. I think it's a good bet that they may not be.

Chris

Manchester United are better than Liverpool as they have more points. They will be up there at the top at the end of the season. Yes Manchester City presently edge Liverpool on number of points but will they still be there at the end of the season???? That's the big question. I think it's a good bet that they may not be.

Chris

Chris, you have got yourself into an argument with somebody who on another thread maintains that Everton are the most successful team in the country because they have played more top flight seasons than anyone else. You have no chance of making him see sense.

Transition - another word that amuses me. In this case Chris, you use it correctly.

However, some kopites I was speaking to said they didn't expect the league title anyway this season as they are in a transition period - just how long do these tranisiton periods go on for lol.

Houllier finished 2nd so the next season was going to be the big one.

Rafa came, I think 3rd didn't he?

So if he goes and a new manager comes in, gets 40-60m - there will be another 3 years grace, as remember, we keep getting told that Ferguson went 7 seasons or something - the thing is I don't believe you can just start again from scratch for every new manager or that is just rendering all the previous millions spent and current crop of players as useless whether it be Everton's Walter Smith millions or Houlliers millions - a few cups won or not.

I don't remember Chelsea's players needing 3 years to gel.

Hi Ged

Glad to see you like my choice of "transition" as you did my use of the word "ephemera" -- shall we say that Manchester City's current success might turn out to be ephemeral :rolleyes:

Actually the way I view it, at this point, Benitez is doing no better than Houllier did toward the end. Just a whole host of mixed and/or dodgy results.

Chris

Weird logic.


It is? Adding up points is weird? In your weird logic Luton are better than Liverpool as they never accumulated more points than Liverpool. Yes, that's right. The team that wins less is better. A new one on me!

Transition - another word that amuses me. In this case Chris, you use it correctly.

However, some kopites I was speaking to said they didn't expect the league title anyway this season as they are in a transition period - just how long do these tranisiton periods go on for lol.


Man Us went on for 26 years, and Liverpool's is now been going for 17 years.

It is? Adding up points is weird? In your weird logic Luton are better than Liverpool as they never accumulated more points than Liverpool. Yes, that's right. The team that wins less is better. A new one on me!


I can see what you are getting at but Man C's position is a reflection on their games to date, and Liverpool's position is a reflection on their games to date.
As they've played a different mix of teams you can't say the the table proves which is the better team in comparison with each other. Only that Man C have done better against their list of opponents than Liverpool have done against theirs.

I'm not arguing for Liverpool or against Man C; just that their current respective positions, very close to each other, proves nothing in terms of which is the better team.

If there was a significant points gap between them then the argument would stand.

Giving up now - you either see it or you don't.

You'd have to figure out which of them have played the harder teams or which of them have played the teams that were above them most or at the time - to date - ie. Liverpool may have played the top 3 but all at Anfield, City may have played the top 3 but all away etc etc - Derby might be bottom now but were they when lfc played them ? A job for a statto or someone with too much time on their hands if you ask me, you'd have to also take into account that liverpool have played far more games than city with the CL etc so may be - what's the word - fatigued ha ha.

No, best wait until the end of the season I think.

I can see what you are getting at

Yep. Adding up points. That's how it works.

Yep. Adding up points. That's how it works.

Which dictates where they are in the league, but not conclusively which is the better team.

Definitely giving up now - like arguing with the feckin' missus.
:PDT_Aliboronz_24:

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee283/exactavarex/scannedimages033.jpg

Is this the downward slope for Lverpool we`ve reached as high as we can go
now it`s downhill all the way.

In my opinion an other striker is needed in January (A real world class one to play alongside Torres) You can't rely on Gerard to score so much. Perhaps the money could be raised by selling Kuyt and Crouch because Benitez never utilises these players to their full capacity anyway does he. However, having said thatI am sceptical about giving Benitez another 40 50 million when he squanders 10 million on a player like Kuyt and then never gives him a game!

When you think of the millions spent at LFC since the mid 90's it hasn't got them anywhere and the new owners are right to be wary about getting out the cheque book every time Rafa demands

Yep. Adding up points. That's how it works.

Yes that is how it works at the end of the season, when everyone has played each other twice and everyone has played the same mumber of games.:rolleyes:

Yes that is how it works at the end of the season, when everyone has played each other twice and everyone has played the same mumber of games.:rolleyes:

Well said, sir.
Waterworks - take note.

Mourinho may come if he can be promised 60 million +, he's seen the good life now and knows that 40m spent this season has not done it. I don't think he'll go back to a Porto and try and win anything with limited resources, he doesn't have to put his reputation on the line like that anymore.

If Liverpool are to put in a bid for Mourinho they had better get a move on. Otmar Hitzfeld is leaving Bayern Munchen at the end of the season and they are a club Mourinho admires. He has always said he has a strong attraction to Germany.
There was a caller on the radio after the Wigan game saying that he has it first hand that Benitez is going in the summer...

First hand though can only mean it has come from Benitez or whoever is sacking him, i've heard so many stories from taxi drivers who've heard it from people sat in the back that I don't believe anything now till it happens. Benitez came with a good pedigree, it would have to be someone extra special again and to be given another x amount of millions so can you see that happening realistically? Where is Hitzfeld going?

Where is Hitzfeld going?

Liverpool?
:rolleyes:

It's a thought ;)

I think Hitzfeld might be managing the Swiss national team

A late reply to this as I've only just joined the community...

I had to laugh at the Wigan fans when their goal went in - "one Emile Heskey" they sung until they realised it was Titus...:D