View Full Version : Referee Mark Clattenburg
jimmy
10-23-2007, 08:03 AM
REFEREE Mark Clattenburg, who was severely criticised by Everton manager David Moyes, will not be taking part in an English Premiership fixture this weekend.
The Professional Game Match Board, which supervises England's professional referees, made the decision after a furious Moyes claimed Dirk Kuyt should not have been on the pitch when the Dutchman hit the penalty winner in Liverpool's 2-1 success at Goodison Park on Saturday.
Moyes was angry that Kuyt had earlier escaped with a yellow card from referee Mark Clattenburg for a wild challenge on Everton captain Phil Neville in Saturday's Merseyside derby.
Although Kuyt failed to make contact with his opponent, it was nevertheless a high challenge which Moyes said should have resulted in a red card.
To rub salt into the wounds, Neville was sent off in stoppage time after using his hands to keep out a shot from Liverpool substitute Lucas. That gifted Kuyt the opportunity to step up and hit the winner from the spot to settle an absorbing 177th league derby between the two clubs.
Its also because hes refereeing in Moscow on Thursday...
Nothing to do with him officiating anywhere else. Keith Hackett was quoted on Alan Jackson's BBC Radio Merseyside phone-in last night as saying.
Everton should have had one penalty (the 2nd of the disputed incidents)
Kuyt should have been dismissed
Hibbert was rightly sent off. He then made some imaginary explaination for Clattenberg first pulling out a yellow card by saying 'It's a habit he picked up officiating abroad whereby he writes down his comments on the card' - this, despite the fact he wrote nothing on it.
My understanding of his body language was that he thought it was an accidental clash (which it was) - two athletes going side by side in full pelt - not a tackle was made - pulling by both players was outside the box as shown by Sky and the BBC. However, he felt a goalscoring opportunity had been missed (even though it was Gerrard's unfavoured left side where a shot would have come from and the keeper was still in position - this is why a tackle wasn't made according to Hibbert) so was going to give a penalty and book Hibbert.
Another point was raised about the 'last man' issue.
Howard was the last man.
In another game on Saturday, Carson, a goalkeeper was sent off as a 'proper' last man.
I didn't actually see the game this week, but caught it on MOTD and MOTD2.
I agree with most of the points raised by yourself though. I do believe the last man not to include the goalkeeper though, so therefore Hibbert was correctly sent off. As a reasonable neutral to the game I would have given that penalty.
Kuyt should have been sent off. As I was explaining to my colleague the other day, if he'd lunged like that to block the flight of the ball then fair enough, but the fact it was in the exact direction of the player (Neville?), then a red card was the only answer...
I also agree with the penalty should have been given for Everton.
As for the ref though being 'dropped' - I can maybe understand the press statements protecting the refs, but it doesn't make sense after the Premier dropped a ref earlier this season to now be 'hiding' the dropping surely?, http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/7056562.stm
When you consider that Carragher had been bad mouthing the ref all afternoon and had been called over on 2 seperate occassions to be told to calm down, then he was the 'last man' as he hauled Lescott to the ground - adding to the fact he was also booked - he too should have gone - it should have been 9 against 9 if he was to be consistant - he wasn't.
Moyes said a directive had been given before the start of the season that 2 footed lunges would not be tolerated and would be a red card. Clattenberg himself had given a talk at Newcastle Utd stating the same according to ALan Jacksons football programme last night.
As the century FM Legends stated last night (all 4 of them representing both Liverpool and Manchester clubs), had Neville been as dishonest as Gerrard, he could have rolled around feining injury to get Kuyt sent off and still we didn't see any Everton players trying to get their opponents sent off by having a 'passing word' with the referee like Gerrard did and Kuyt waved an imaginary card at Clattenberg when Neville handled. Disgusting if you ask me though I'll forgive the relieved Carra for racing the full length of the pitch at the final whistle like they'd won the cup. ;)
Waterways
10-23-2007, 01:13 PM
I didn't actually see the game this week, but caught it on MOTD and MOTD2.
I agree with most of the points raised by yourself though. I do believe the last man not to include the goalkeeper though, so therefore Hibbert was correctly sent off. As a reasonable neutral to the game I would have given that penalty.
Gerrard had his arm out preventing Hibbert getting near him to make a tackle. Hibbert put his arm between Gerrards arm and body to get closer. Gerrard closed his arm. Gerrard was obstructing Hibbert in extending his arm to keep Hibbert off. Hibbert did not impede Gerrards acceleration. I would not give a penalty for that.
Exactly. Considering all the pulling was backwards and at a level to each other (and started outside the box) I fail to see how this can result in Gerrard falling headlong into the area just as he gets over the line, it was the rugby equivalent of a player trying to get to the line at all costs. Gerrard was cunning and it paid off, you can't blame him if you're a diver - I just wish Neville and Lescott had not been as honest now.
Waterways
10-23-2007, 01:26 PM
Exactly. Considering all the pulling was backwards and at a level to each other (and started outside the box) I fail to see how this can result in Gerrard falling headlong into the area just as he gets over the line, it was the rugby equivalent of a player trying to get to the line at all costs. Gerrard was cunning and it paid off, you can't blame him if you're a diver - I just wish Neville and Lescott had not been as honest now.
Even if it was penalty, Gerrard clearly dived, which he should have been yellow carded for.
The ref was a disaster, or had a large brown envelope after. Far too many mistakes in one game not to be suspect.
Just out of interest have you 2 refereed a game at any level?
I'm not saying that Gerrard dived, didn't dive etc... What I'm saying, and I'm not 100% certain as to where the ref was (but I suspect he was behind play, maybe around the centre circle), that bearing in mind the position of the ref, his view of incident, without tv replays, I would have given that penalty. The only official with a better view of the incident was the lino, who presumably didn't give any information to the ref...?
If the ref gives a penalty, then Hibbert has to go. If the ref hadn't given the penalty then Gerrard should have been booked for diving. Kuyt, by the laws of the game, should have also been booked for encouraging the ref to book another player, as potentially should have Gerrard if he encouraged the ref to send Hibbert off.
For what its worth, Gerrard has dived numerous times in the past, but due to him being English (or British), the panelist on MOTD will not highlight this fact, preferring to pick on the foreigners in the game...
Waterways
10-23-2007, 02:05 PM
Just out of interest have you 2 refereed a game at any level?
Yes, in the Middle East, between teams of Sudanese and Thailanders. I nearly got lynched.
If the ref gives a penalty, then Hibbert has to go. If the ref hadn't given the penalty then Gerrard should have been booked for diving.
You can get a penalty and still be booked for diving.
Kuyt, by the laws of the game, should have also been booked for encouraging the ref to book another player, as potentially should have Gerrard if he encouraged the ref to send Hibbert off.
yep.
A.D.W
10-23-2007, 02:43 PM
Yes, in the Middle East, between teams of Sudanese and Thailanders. I nearly got lynched.
You got away?!
Bugger.
:)
Hiya again Jock. What's gone has gone now but....
No, i've never reffed but still play in two leagues. Refs and players eyes are all the same - you're all usually looking ballwards - the ref was directly behind Gerrard and Hibbert as they raced headlong neck and neck into the area - there was no daylight between them - the linesman (referee's assistant though he never assisted at all) never flagged - the positioning of the ref was highlighted on sky - no tackle was made - he just saw from the back, two players hit the deck side by side and conveniently awarded a pen. Ok, you might say why would Gerrard fall when he could have shot - i'd say the same about Lescott's two chances.
For Lescott's second 'pen' the ref couldn't have been in a better position and he flailed his arms out aeroplane style whilst looking directly at them as if to say no foul play on - little wonder Carra raced the length of the pitch relieved 10 seconds later. If the ref didn't see carra's hands raised and bear hugging Lescott then he shouldn't be reffing or needs glasses. If Lescott was backing in - Carra would have known to hold his own arms out to prove he wasn't making any contact with him - doing so would make Lescott's subsequent fall look foolish - he didn't and couldn't do this because clearly his hands (just like Finnan's earlier) were all over Lescott spinning him round and levering him to the floor.
Every self respecting fair minded Liverpudlian i've spoken to agrees with me, in fact they say victory is all the sweeter as it wasn't deserved. For my part - i'd have settled for 1-1 at that point.
Refs are now professional and paid 60k - there can be no room for so many errors going just the one way - it stinks.
Understand exactly where you're coming from - and for the umpteenth time I fully agree that the penalty at the end against Carra should have been given. The reason I asked about the refereeing aspect was I've played and watched football all my live and always been very critical of referees.
I then offered to help a mate out and ref one of his game. Frigging hell, never ever again. So difficult to spot stuff going on, plus when you've got 22 grown lads harking at every decision, non-decision, its vitually impossible - I now give refs much bigger leway.
The other thing that I adopt these days is a mentallity of what goes around comes around. Look at Liverpool vs Aston Villa opening day of the season, Gerrard got a lucky free kick at the end awarded and scored from it. Then a few weeks later the non-penalty was awarded to Chelsea at Anfield. Now you've got the Goodison serious of events. I'm sure Everton will get something this season awarded to them that maybe they shouldn't, and I'm sure Liverpool will get something unfairly awarded against them...
Possibly right but why isn't a 4th official in the stands and miked up to the ref. Rugby refs are heard and seen explaining every decision that's contested (though not many are) and not many mistakes are made.
As Gary Owen on the Century legends says to the swings and roundabouts argument - try telling that to Colchester who had a goal that crossed the line ruled out - they never progressed further in the cup and so lost out on a lot of revenue that might have saw them able to buy players and ge promoted.
I've put a list of decisions that seem to have gone against Everton in the past, important games too and not ones where we won anyway so it didn't matter - blatantly bad referring - you don't get those missed cup wins back. It might be seen as sour grapes by some but tell me a team where wrong decisions seem to have more important - the facts are there for all to see and we're supposed to just say 'never mind he's only human'. There's 4 officials now and if they're not in tandem and bottling out of stonewall decisions then in my job i'd be sacked. The fact he still thinks his decisions were right is very worrying.
First of all - there should be a new ruling that only the captain can speak with the official then you'd have none of this ungamesmanship witnessed by some Liverpool players on saturday.
First of all - there should be a new ruling that only the captain can speak with the official then you'd have none of this ungamesmanship witnessed by some Liverpool players on saturday.
Its something they're proposing to try in lower leagues after Christmas last I heard.
It might be just desserts if we get each other in the cup (preferable the Uefa cup next year, which will mean we're through and they're out of the CL) ;)
AND WE WIN with a disputed penalty - gotta laarrff.
Keith Hackett of the refs federation looked into something for Moyes last season after Andy Johnson got 10 clear penalty shouts ignored. It was because Wenger and Neil Warnock moaned about him 'diving' even though replays showed he was just too quick and tricky for the defenders on each count.
Hackett subsequently said that 8 of them should have been given. We won some of the games anyway but those others that we drew or lost could have resulted in another 10 points (ok, let's assume we'd only have converted 5 of them - it could have worked out to a place or two higher in the league and so more money - perhaps even 4th place.
The argument against video technology is
1) The time it'd take for a replay decision. It's been proven it would take seconds.
2) There'd be no talking points afterwards. Well I'd rather replace talking points and pub arguments about dodgy iffy brown envelope decisions with the points thank you very much.
Simon
10-23-2007, 09:04 PM
Understand exactly where you're coming from - and for the umpteenth time I fully agree that the penalty at the end against Carra should have been given.
Then a few weeks later the non-penalty was awarded to Chelsea at Anfield. Now you've got the Goodison serious of events. I'm sure Everton will get something this season awarded to them that maybe they shouldn't, and I'm sure Liverpool will get something unfairly awarded against them...
I agree with what you say, mostly. But these two things bother me. Calling a player by his familiar nickname, to me, makes the acceptance of 'star' quality holding sway over the lesser players axiomatic. Carra, Rafa, Stevie G, to be honest, it all makes my skin crawl when the national, never mind the moronic local, media refer to these people like they are fans themselves. And yes, it applies to Roo, Rio, Sir Alex too.
Concerning the Chelsea 'penalty'; agreed, it was a shocking decision, but that referee was suspended after The Most Popular Club In The World kicked up a stink via their vast media machine. Clattenburg hasn't been suspended. Yes, I agree we will get decisions awarded for us, but it will be in a mistaken good luck/bad luck balancing act, it will not be because we have players who referees are awe-struck by. It will not be because referees want to look great on the telly in front of their mum. It will most certainly not be because referees want to officiate at the highest level in Europe by favouring the elite clubs in their respective countries thereby ingratiating themselves with UEFA.
Just watched Arsenal anihilate Sparta prague or someone - absolutely excellent - all 7 goals worthy of goal of the month if not season - but guess who'll get a penalty against them at the weekend :)
Mark R
10-23-2007, 11:26 PM
Saw Eindhoven v Fenerbahce. See that dirty......spit at the Fenerbahce player? Absolute disgrace. Brought back memories of Rijkaard and Voller at Italia '90...
Gnomie
10-24-2007, 12:01 AM
I believe(i may be wrong) that the ref has to be certain what has happened to give a penalty. I have watched Gerrard and Hibbert and it has about 5 answers to it from TV pictures. The ref saw it from behind, was he certain???
I dony like what Gerrard did to influence the refs yellow to a red over Hibbert, but i think the REf was very very weak, if he is that weak then give it up son.
A couple of neutrals mentioned in work to me this morning that I should google 'Gerrard autobiography clattenburg' It was also suggested on more than one occassion that he has attended overseas tours with lfc - including Asia which BBC Radio Merseyside confirmed. I don't think there should be any common touch or favouritism with ANY player of ANY team and you certainly shouldn't comment in your autobiography about existing refs, especially if it's to brown-nose them (and no doubt point out the favourable passages to them)
tsss.
One version of events just googled.
'Everton should have had a penalty after Jamie Carragher’s Judo flip on Joleon Lescott and Dirk Kuyt shouldn’t have been on the field to score the winning penalty for Liverpool.
But I’m stating the bleeding obvious a bit.
Yes, a draw was the only fair result but football and life are rarely fair. Ask Mark Cueto and Lewis Hamilton.
Anyway, here's a few observations on the derby;
* Joleon Lescott was the best player on the pitch. England can do one.
*Jamie Carragher is turning into one of those mouthy, arms held aloft in incredulity, ref-baiting ‘Chelsea style’ players he supposedly detests.
* If Phil Neville hadn’t hurdled Kuyt’s challenge he could have had two broken legs. But don’t worry Dirk Diggler says ‘TV made it look worse than it was’.
* In Steven Gerrard’s autobiography he eulogises for two pages about referee Mark Clattenburg and calls him, ‘one of the best refs around...top drawer...never influenced by the occasion.’
* Clattenburg went out of his way to shake Captain Fantastic’s hand when he was substituted.
* Clattenburg, the new Graham Poll, can say what he likes but after gazing into Stevie’s big, imploring eyes he pocketed his yellow and sent Tony Hibbert off.
*Carragher is such big mates with Clattenburg he avoided a booking despite doing a ****** sign in his face.'
It's easy to say 'forget it now' but this ref shouldn't get away with it being just brushed under the carpet - until next time.
Some of the more jovial aspects to the issue.
From Blue kipper.com
''Kettle Pot Black
Graham Poll has come to Everton's aid and backed Moyesy's shout that Mark CLOTTenburg made a pigs ear of every major decision in Saturdays Derby defeat. Well thanks Graham, any more advice for Mr. CLOTTenburg, like save it for your book, like you did you hypocritical charlatan. Wasn't it the very same Mr. Poll who disallowed a last minute Don Hutchinson winner many moons ago in a Derby. Said nothing, like they all do at the time, but when the book came out, said he messed up and the Blues should have won. Graham, go back under your rock with Clive Thomas, and take CLOTTenburg with you.''
''There's no intent honest ref'' - Kuyt.
''It was nothing, he was coming in from the side'' - Benny the ball.
(the latter comment now ranking with Le Fools ''Fowler was just eating the grass'')
ChrisGeorge
10-24-2007, 04:28 PM
''There's no intent honest ref'' - Kuyt.
''It was nothing, he was coming in from the side'' - Benny the ball.
(the latter comment now ranking with Le Fools ''Fowler was just eating the grass'')
The thing though is that Dirk Kuyt is usually a gentlemanly and well behaved player, not dirty at all. He reminds me somewhat of Roger Hunt. Not like some other players I might mention who are playing in the Premier League, e.g, Robbie Savage or Lee Bowyer. So it is a bit unfortunate that Dirk went in with this tackle in the passion of the derby which I can't excuse either.
Chris
I agree with that. Caught up in the passion of the game, I got the impression that having not long scored, he was defending having got his team back into the game at all costs and some sort of red mist descended. I'm glad that Neville didn't resort to tactics that others might have, even if it does win you friends instead of games.
Just watching lfc and it seems that without the refs help they're a bit at sixes and sevens at the back.
ChrisGeorge
10-25-2007, 12:43 AM
Just watching lfc and it seems that without the refs help they're a bit at sixes and sevens at the back.
Hello Ged
Unfortunately I have to agree that it was an awful performance by Liverpool tonight in Istanbul. Clueless.
Chris
Alex Ferguson has been charged by the FA after telling Clattenburg what he thought of him at Bolton on Saturday. Nice to see him again helping Liverpool's title chances, and good to see the FA are finally standing up to United's bully of a manager.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/man_utd/7113777.stm
ChrisGeorge
11-26-2007, 07:42 PM
Alex Ferguson has been charged by the FA after telling Clattenburg what he thought of him at Bolton on Saturday. Nice to see him again helping Liverpool's title chances, and good to see the FA are finally standing up to United's bully of a manager.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/man_utd/7113777.stm
I bet Fergy was red faced over it.... oh, er, he's always red faced. :PDT_Xtremez_42:
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