Fontenoy / Hodson St station

[Scouseinmanc]

Can I just clear up the fact that there have NEVER been stations at either Fontenoy or Hodson streets.

I have checked every source I can think of & there is no evidence to show that these stations ever existed.

Prior to redevelopment of this area, there may indeed have been cuttings (& at one time possibly even the intention of opening up this/these station/s, which never came to fruition), exposed in both of these streets. However, the only historic station of a similar nature is James St, which is on a completely different line altogether.

The only stations ever opened & connected by this tunnel were Liverpool Riverside & Edge Hill.

[Waterways]

Can I just clear up the fact that there have NEVER been stations at either Fontenoy or Hodson streets.

I have checked every source I can think of & there is no evidence to show that these stations ever existed.

Prior to redevelopment of this area, there may indeed have been cuttings (& at one time possibly even the intention of opening up this/these station/s, which never came to fruition), exposed in both of these streets. However, the only historic station of a similar nature is James St, which is on a completely different line altogether.

The only stations ever opened & connected by this tunnel were Liverpool Riverside & Edge Hill.

It could be argued with justification, that Gt Howard St station, which was above the end of the tunnel, was served by the tunnel too. There was stairs down from the Gt Howard St station, which was in the open air at a higher level than the tunnel below, down to the Waterloo Goods depot which was at the end of the tunnel. So, the Waterloo Goods terminal was passenger and goods at one time - the way I understand it.

When the Waterloo Goods Station was de-commissioned, the line was extended to the new Riverside station at the Pier Head, and the link to Gt Howard St station no more.

It was mentioned that Hodson Street was a stop for workers. If so, then steps must have been there.

St James' Station at Parliament St is similar to Hodson St as it is a cutting - semi underground station, which has conceptual plans for re-opening.

[Ged]

As I mentioned earlier, me and a few mates walked through this tunnel and though strewn with debris, prams, mattresses etc, the walls looked sheer to us and we could see the landings of Fonney Oy up above but no way out. I believe Gt Howard street station was used prior to the building of Exchange Station which was originally called Tithebarn Street Station for a few years until its name change.

[Waterways]

As I mentioned earlier, me and a few mates walked through this tunnel and though strewn with debris, prams, mattresses etc, the walls looked sheer to us and we could see the landings of Fonney Oy up above but no way out. I believe Gt Howard street station was used prior to the building of Exchange Station which was originally called Tithebarn Street Station for a few years until its name change.

Did Gt Howard St station continue operating after Exchange Station opened up in the centre? As I understand it Waterloo Goods depot had a passenger link. Was this so? If so, the depot was goods and passengers. When did the passenger link at the end of the tunnel stop? When the goods depot was demolished in the 1800s?

[Ged]

I don't know if Gt Howard street station was a passenger railway as well as goods but I don't think it was stopped being used as a goods yard after the opening of Exchange as i'm sure i've seen it in books still operating after Exchange opened, though I would expect that if Gt Howard street did take passengers then this service would have been transfered to Exchange once opened. I met a couple of lads at last years model railway exhibition who had a cracking model of the Crown st sidings, complete with Myrtle Gardens above and who are working on a large scale model of Lime st including the Bullring and the Great North Western Hotel for next years exhibition, they will probably know so i'll email them. One of the lads, Mike Delamar was on here a while back.

[Waterways]

I don't know if Gt Howard street station was a passenger railway as well as goods but I don't think it was stopped being used as a goods yard after the opening of Exchange as i'm sure i've seen it in books still operating after Exchange opened, though I would expect that if Gt Howard street did take passengers then this service would have been transfered to Exchange once opened. I met a couple of lads at last years model railway exhibition who had a cracking model of the Crown st sidings, complete with Myrtle Gardens above and who are working on a large scale model of Lime st including the Bullring and the Great North Western Hotel for next years exhibition, they will probably know so i'll email them. One of the lads, Mike Delamar was on here a while back.

Thanks Ged. All that is a haze as the Waterloo Goods depot was demolished in the 1800s I was under the impression Gt Howard St was above on the viaduct and was passenger only with steps access to the Waterloo Good Depot below, which meant that the Goods depot was goods and passenger at one time.

I have seen no artists impressions, or photos of the Waterloo Goods Depot, which was historical in itself. I was under the impression it was all under a roof.

I recall its sister at Park Lane, at the end of the Wapping Tunnel, which was in operation until around 1971/72.

The most impressive rail Goods Depot was the Cheshire Lines goods Terminal at Sefton St at Brunswick Dock. A very large, well made, good looking building, that was demolished around 1976.

Out of these goods depots, at the front, MDHB trains would cross the Dock Rd and run under the Overhead railway taking cargos to and from the various docks. Small three wheel unit Scamell articulator trucks would be buzzing around everywhere in and out of the docks and goods yards.

[oritelad]

its good to see more discussions about this lost waterloo tunnel station my site www.oldliverpoolrailways.tk has a page on it please feel free to look its still under construction i still have loads to add to each page but hodson station did exsist iam 100% certain it was very hidden as the area as we know it today is very open but before the area was redevloped that cutting was quite hidden when fontenoy garderns are around the station was accsesed by stairs they started where the electricity orange brick hut is now and down onto the platforms where a woodern station hut was also of course this station was mostly used by workers and trains did not stop here much and it didnt last long as a station but lets not forget it as it was a station and will soon be again thanks to merseyrail as for the other stations on the waterloo tunnel line it had hodson station, edge hill, riverside, waterloo goods and great howard street as great howard street station as used as a goods yard after exchange station opened i have photos somewhere traces of great howard street station, waterloo goods station, hodson station and riverside station are still there today

[Waterways]

its good to see more discussions about this lost waterloo tunnel station my site www.oldliverpoolrailways.tk has a page on it please feel free to look its still under construction i still have loads to add to each page but hodson station did exsist iam 100% certain it was very hidden as the area as we know it today is very open but before the area was redevloped that cutting was quite hidden when fontenoy garderns are around the station was accsesed by stairs they started where the electricity orange brick hut is now and down onto the platforms where a woodern station hut was


Wooden platforms? No trace of platforms in that tunnel.



also of course this station was mostly used by workers and trains did not stop here much and it didnt last long as a station but lets not forget it as it was a station and will soon be again thanks to merseyrail


I don't think it is earmarked to be re-commissioned. Maybe on a wish list that is about all. The population around there is just not heavy enough to support a station.



as for the other stations on the waterloo tunnel line it had hodson station, edge hill, riverside, waterloo goods and great howard street. As great howard street station as used as a goods yard after exchange station opened i have photos somewhere traces of great howard street station, waterloo goods station, hodson station and riverside station are still there today

So Gt Howard St was passenger, then a goods yard supplementing the Waterloo Goods Depot adjacent?

[Ged]

I maintain I did not see any access from that Byrom st cutting to ground level but I may be wrong, there was a lot of bushes growing out of the wall etc. Also I have pictures of that cutting during the building and demolition of Fontenoy Gardens and there's no trace of any access to below shown but if it was a station i'd guess that it may have been defunct by the mid 30s anyway?

[PhilipG]

The following is by Naomi Evetts from the Alan Godfrey reprint of the 1906 OS map.

"In 1848 the Lancs & Yorks Railway opened the line between Liverpool and Wigan, Bolton, Bury & Rochdale. There was a temporary passenger terminus at Great Howard Street but the line was extended and the Tithebarn Street Station opened in 1850. This was re-built and re-opened as Exchange Station in 1888."

Great Howard Street station was built on the site of a Gaol, and became a goods station.

GHS and Exchange are the only stations on the 1906 map, which covers north Liverpool from London Road, and includes Everton, Scotland Road and Vauxhall Road.

Riverside Station (not on this map) opened in 1895.

[Ged]

Thanks Philip for clarification. Now we need to establish if the legendary or perhaps mythical Hodson street station ever existed.

[PhilipG]

The Waterloo Tunnel is the only railway anywhere near Hodson Street, and, as it passes under Hodson Street (between Byrom St & Fontenoy St) it emerges from its tunnel. It isn't marked as a station on the 1906 map, although it would be the obvious access point.

[Ged]

What were the purpose of these wide cuttings such as Byrom st or the one on the Lime street line by the bullring, the bullring one wasn't a station so was it just for access, otherwise a shaft like Norton st would suffice for steam/smoke. I know the similar James st wide cutting was a station. I don't think it is fact yet that the Hodson street cutting was a station and it doesn't appear on the disused stations site though that also doesn't mean it wasn't.

[Waterways]

What were the purpose of these wide cuttings such as Byrom st or the one on the Lime street line by the bullring, the bullring one wasn't a station so was it just for access, otherwise a shaft like Norton st would suffice for steam/smoke. I know the similar James st wide cutting was a station. I don't think it is fact yet that the Hodson street cutting was a station and it doesn't appear on the disused stations site though that also doesn't mean it wasn't.

See my other post on the Lime St cuttings. The Waterloo Goods Depot closed down in the 1880s/90s, or was converted to a yard rather than a covered building (need clarification on that). Rail traffic was coming in via the north, so maybe the Waterloo Goods yard was made redundant for goods.

Hodson St station could have closed down at the same time or even earlier if no business was there - or the passenger trains were getting in the way of full goods trains. And you are right to point out why there was a long and wide cutting at Hodson St, when just shafts coped elsewhere. And yes the St. James' station cutting gives a good clue to station usage

Ged, I think you mean St. James' station.

[Ged]

Yes, sorry St. James not James st :)

It's interesting to me about this Hodson street mystery because I hung around there but obviously not in the late 1800s though some might disagree. :)

I'll kick myself if I find out there were steps up out of there, we had to walk for what seemed like miles.

[PhilipG]

Apart from the wall facing Great Howard Street, the other 3 walls of the goods station (on the 1906 OS map) are shown as dotted lines.
I don't know what dotted lines indicate, but guess that, are far as stations were concerned there were no walls.
(The rear of Exchange where the trains entered is a dotted line).
The site of GHS is shaded, which (I think) indicates a roof.

[John_142]

Apart from the wall facing Great Howard Street, the other 3 walls of the goods station (on the 1906 OS map) are shown as dotted lines.
I don't know what dotted lines indicate, but guess that, are far as stations were concerned there were no walls.
(The rear of Exchange where the trains entered is a dotted line).
The site of GHS is shaded, which (I think) indicates a roof.

"Dotted lines if iam correct show tunnels on old railway maps".

[PhilipG]

"Dotted lines if iam correct show tunnels on old railway maps".

Perhaps, but I was referring to the Ordnance Survey maps where they indicate open access to a roofed area.

[Ged]

The Byrom Street cutting rubbish.

[Ged]

The cuttings either side of Hodson Street. Pic by Freddy O'Connor.

[mikewturner]

Can I just clear up the fact that there have NEVER been stations at either Fontenoy or Hodson streets.

I have checked every source I can think of & there is no evidence to show that these stations ever existed.

Prior to redevelopment of this area, there may indeed have been cuttings (& at one time possibly even the intention of opening up this/these station/s, which never came to fruition), exposed in both of these streets. However, the only historic station of a similar nature is James St, which is on a completely different line altogether.

The only stations ever opened & connected by this tunnel were Liverpool Riverside & Edge Hill.

Hi

I am new to the forum so forgive me if this has been covered elsewhere.

I have seen statements made that people are 100% certain that these stations existed on this line. What is the proof?

I have never seen anything on maps, official railway company plans, board of trade inspection returns, railway company committee minutes etc so am intrigued.

Regards

Mike Turner

[Waterways]

Hi

I am new to the forum so forgive me if this has been covered elsewhere.

I have seen statements made that people are 100% certain that these stations existed on this line. What is the proof?

I have never seen anything on maps, official railway company plans, board of trade inspection returns, railway company committee minutes etc so am intrigued.

Regards

Mike Turner

The cutting is way too large for ventilation and is station sized. This naturally makes people think there was a station there. I have a hunch provision was put for one in case when the tunnel was being cut.

[mikewturner]

The cutting is way too large for ventilation and is station sized. This naturally makes people think there was a station there. I have a hunch provision was put for one in case when the tunnel was being cut.

Ah well if that's the reason I can clear this up. The cutting was wide because that was the location of the runaway catch points. The one on the line to Waterloo ran off towards the wall. The one on the line to Edge Hill ran off between the running lines hence they would be set at a wider interval.

Mike Turner

[mike delamar]

backing up what Mike has said

there was never a station there, it must be stuff of legend,

and any opening does act like a ventilation shaft, like the ex cheshire lines tunnels between walton and kirkdale. they where designed with this smoke in mind, especially any long tunnel on a steep gradient like this.

the tunnel is not deep enough underground to warrant an actual shaft/chimney.

Mike

[Ged]

Hello Mike. Got a message off Chris about your show, can't wait to see the Lime st model, are you getting the echo down?

[mike delamar]

alrite Ged, we usually do but they come down too late to make a difference.


Mike

[Ged]

I mean as some publicity before the show, not that you need it judging by last time. A 45ft model including the Gt North Western hotel and the Station etc should be well touted up beforehand.

[mike delamar]

do you know anyone from the Echo Ged? to get some publicity going? your coming with your model again arnt you?


Mike

[Ged]

Yes on both counts, try Peter Grant who does the 'Flashback' feature in Saturday nights echo - since it's a model of Lime street station of yesteryear
petergrant@liverpoolecho.co.uk you can mention me (Gerard Gardens model and In a city living books)

[mike delamar]

cheers mate, ill do that

Mike

[terrysmith]

Thanks Ged. All that is a haze as the Waterloo Goods depot was demolished in the 1800s I was under the impression Gt Howard St was above on the viaduct and was passenger only with steps access to the Waterloo Good Depot below, which meant that the Goods depot was goods and passenger at one time.

I have seen no artists impressions, or photos of the Waterloo Goods Depot, which was historical in itself. I was under the impression it was all under a roof.

I recall its sister at Park Lane, at the end of the Wapping Tunnel, which was in operation until around 1971/72.

The most impressive rail Goods Depot was the Cheshire Lines goods Terminal at Sefton St at Brunswick Dock. A very large, well made, good looking building, that was demolished around 1976.

Out of these goods depots, at the front, MDHB trains would cross the Dock Rd and run under the Overhead railway taking cargos to and from the various docks. Small three wheel unit Scamell articulator trucks would be buzzing around everywhere in and out of the docks and goods yards.

I joined British Rail in 1966 in the centralised accounts office at Waterloo Dock depot. The goods side had been closed for a few years so we played football at lunchtime in the empty warehouse. The yard was fully roofed over and I remember watching from the office window the demolition of the yard. I also remember standing by the rail side as a steam engine pulled a train of West Indian immigrants from the Riverside station and went through the tunnel to Edge Hill.
There was a fire in the office in 1966 (Harry Lightfoot got the blame) which meant we decanted to an office at Alexandra Dock before moving onto Nelson House at Lime Street probably in 1967.
By the way the fire was purely accidental.Harry was a true WW11 hero.
Since then I have been fascinated by the old tunnels and despair at the lack of imagination which closed the tunnels and the same lackof imagination that struggles to see them as part of the answer to today's problems

[PhilipG]

Both these tunnels were just for goods, so would only need stations at either end.
They both connected with docks.
Presumably the idea was to avoid transporting goods by road, and loading wagons as liittle as possible.

[oritelad]

just been to look at the site of the old hodson station in the cutting and wow after all these years since the early 70s the hodson station is clear of all the years over overgroth and rubbish i have some great photos let hope work on the new line happens soon anyone have any info on this?

[PhilipG]

Went to have a look on Sunday, and never knew that it's possible to take photos.

From Fontenoy Street.
Hodson Street is the left half of the photo.
Don't know what the opening on the right was for.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2197/2291262824_1f28fc70a3_o.jpg

Byrom Street.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3159/2290468917_062d6abf32_o.jpg

The walls at the Byrom Street end are just a bit too high.
If one of our car-driving friends could take a small step ladder, or even a chair, that would do.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3209/2290469115_8f179d4f94_o.jpg

[Ged]

And this is how it looked when I took a few photos a few years back.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/5660/byromtunnelrubbishyj0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/5660/byromtunnelrubbishyj0.985375aef5.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=525&i=byromtunnelrubbishyj0.jpg)


If you can imagine looking up from down there on Philip's first photograph. When I walked through there, you could see the Fontenoy Gardens tenement landings - where the new housing now is, well, it's not that new anymore.

It was a landmark so we knew where we were, the next shaft of light we saw was the Norton Street ventilation shaft. You can just see it popping up here and it's still there now behind the coach station.

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/8040/nortonstbackbombdiesslikw3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


(2nd pic by Joe Devine)
.

[PhilipG]

Now that I've seen this cutting, and seen that the line is not far below street level, could the reason be that it was too shallow to cover?

[Waterways]

Both these tunnels were just for goods,


Passengers used the Waterloo to Riverside station at the Pier Head. Last used taking troops to N Ireland in 1971.



so would only need stations at either end.
They both connected with docks.
Presumably the idea was to avoid transporting goods by road, and loading wagons as liittle as possible.

The idea was to have direct rail access to the north and south ends docks. Get the goods as close to the ships as possible and in and out the port ASAP. It worked.

[Ged]

Now that I've seen this cutting, and seen that the line is not far below street level, could the reason be that it was too shallow to cover?


This line also ran below two cemeteries one of the North side of Hunter Street in the grounds of the old friends meeting house (quakers) which was demolished in 1945 (resumed after the war)for the building of Gerard Crescent and another further up on the South side near Chrisitan Street which was the cemetery belonging to Christ Church.

[PhilipG]

Passengers used the Waterloo to Riverside station at the Pier Head.

I should have said they were both designed as goods lines and in the case of the Waterloo Tunnel only carried passengers after Riverside Station opened in 1895.
Presumably the liners' passengers changed at Edge Hill for trains to other places.

[Waterways]

The Hodson St cutting was a runaway wagon trap - it widens out to 4 tracks It may have been open to lift out crashed railway wagon and get the tunnel up and running ASAP. Remember these tunnels were the main goods in and out of the docks from the land side at one point.

[oritelad]

if you stand on the old fountain you can get photos facing that way take a look at my hodson station photos of my site

[Waterways]

The Waterloo and Wapping Tunnels - the red lines. The nearside is the Waterloo Tunnel (well Victoria Tunnel and Waterloo all in one tunnel). These tunnels run under the city centre and not using them is criminal and gross amateurism by Merseyrail planners.

http://i31.tinypic.com/9po08n.jpg

[PhilipG]

if you stand on the old fountain you can get photos facing that way take a look at my hodson station photos of my site

How are people supposed to take your site seriously if you keep calling this cutting Hodson Station?
You're not doing yourself any favours, because you've done a lot of work and put a lot of effort into your site.
I've already said this to you privately.

[Ged]

if you stand on the old fountain you can get photos facing that way take a look at my hodson station photos of my site

So it was you who chipped that old Melly fountain ;)

Seriously though, someone has given an explaination as to why the cutting was there and so wide and there is no photographic or map evidence of any station ever existing there and no logistical reason for one to have been there in the past.

[Waterways]

How are people supposed to take your site seriously if you keep calling this cutting Hodson Station?
You're not doing yourself any favours, because you've done a lot of work and put a lot of effort into your site.
I've already said this to you privately.

Philip. this is foresight as it earmarked to be a station.

[oritelad]

haha i know i shouldn't climb on historical fountains but i was desperate to see what was over the wall sorry l

i do realize that the cutting in the center of the waterloo tunnel many do not believe was a station but from what i found out it was going to be and was still used to access the surface so it kind of was a station so i didn't want to ignore it but i do agree it was used for run away trains in the end shame it never became a proper station. but maybe it will be in the future :)

[mikewturner]

haha i know i shouldn't climb on historical fountains but i was desperate to see what was over the wall sorry l

i do realize that the cutting in the center of the waterloo tunnel many do not believe was a station but from what i found out it was going to be and was still used to access the surface so it kind of was a station so i didn't want to ignore it but i do agree it was used for run away trains in the end shame it never became a proper station. but maybe it will be in the future :)

Hi

When you say 'from what you found out..' What did you find out and where from?

Mike

[oritelad]

has anyone been down to investigate the site lately for possible remains of it being a station? now the rubbish has been cleared when merseyrail cleared the tunnel to investiagte the possibility of a new line?

[Waterways]

I think it is clear there was never a full blown passenger station there.

The four tunnels: Waterloo, Wapping, Dingle and Haymarket in Birkenhead are all in excellent condition. To bore just the waterloo Tunnel would cost around ?0.5 billion today.

These tunnels have to be re-used as they would add great value to the Merseyrail transport network. Everyone gains then. An underground Circle Line would transform the city using the Waterloo and Dingle tunnels.
Circle Line - click here (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/watercity/Merseyrail-Extensions.html)

[jc_everton]

Agreed. There never was a passenger station down there. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest otherwise.

Disagree about the next paragraph though. You've plucked the figure of ?0.5bn out the air. And the tunnels are not in "excellent" condition. They might not be beyond repair, but they're not in an excellent condition.
Said that, the Council don't care, MerseyTravel don't care, so what's the point? The city is run by a bunch of amateurs and the inner city is plagued by rats and scum.
We could skip forward by 100 years right now to year 2109, and the city will still be the same, with the same old scumbags, living in squalid conditions.
Street furniture in Liverpool consists of dog-dirt, chippy papers and carrier bags. Why should the people of this city get a brand new state-of-the-art transport network? They don't deserve one.
The scum need to be sterilised to prevent them from breeding a new batch of scum (negative eugenics). This cycle will continue to prevail, unless we sterilise them, or lock them away. Investment in new prisons? Sounds good to me. Armed police? Check. Florida-style Police tanks? Check. Death sentence? Check.

Get the law and order in place, then you can invest in transport/regeneration etc. It's like a football club spending millions on great players, but if they don't have discipline and respect for the management staff and the club, they will not perform. You can't "regenerate" an area through solely building new houses/offices or "creating a new Circle Line". It's pure fantasy.
If the people aren't willing to participate in regeneration, the area will never improve. It's as simple as that.
The amount of smackheads I see every time I'm in Liverpool/Bootle is frightening. Women in pyjamas on the street. Scum-rats walking round with evil dogs. Dress the city up how ever you please, it is a city of scum. To believe otherwise, well, you're just a luvvey.

[Ged]

Hey perhaps the tunnels could be used as new prisons then - just brick up the ends when you reach a million.

[Waterways]

Disagree about the next paragraph though. You've plucked the figure of ?0.5bn out the air. And the tunnels are not in "excellent" condition. They might not be beyond repair, but they're not in an excellent condition.


Current costs would be around 0.5 billion for the Waterloo alone. They are in good condition. Any problems would only cost a few million to put right which drops to small change when a new tunnel would be ?0.5 billion.

The Haymarket Tunnel is for tracks wide and the tracks are still there. A whole station can be installed in the tunnel without too much rock cutting, if only two of the lines are used. The Dingle tunnel is in excellent condition indeed.



Said that, the Council don't care, MerseyTravel don't care, so what's the point?


That is defeatist. And what is the point of life in itself as well? True the council rate the city as a 2nd or 3rd tier city and they have a small town mentality too. That does not mean the rest of the people have to give up.

One way is to introduce a middle class. The new apartments, which are sneered at by the working class. They claim they are empty so no new blocks should be built - what world are these people in? The Echo promotes that view too.




You can't "regenerate" an area through solely building new houses/offices or "creating a new Circle Line". It's pure fantasy.


Nonsense!!! Liverpool needs a mass injection of middle class. To attract them and companies you need the transport infrastructure and accommodation. The transport infrastructure is the catalyst. That is where investment should be directed. Transport for the core of the city. Not trams or extending Merseyrail to Wrexham or Skem. Spend where it is is disparately needed.



If the people aren't willing to participate in regeneration, the area will never improve. It's as simple as that.


Then you displace those negative people who don't want to know.

You only go to the parts no one else wants to know. What you say equally applies to large parts of London, yet that city still moves on in big way.

[Waterways]

Hey perhaps the tunnels could be used as new prisons then - just brick up the ends when you reach a million.

Good idea. A jail was on top of the end of the Waterloo tunnel at one time. It was built to house French Napoleonic prisoners of war.

[jc_everton]

Once again, these monetary figures have no support whatsoever. What are you basing these costs on? I'm intrigued.
If you can think of a similar project from around the world on a similar scale which cost a similar price, then, maybe you have a point.
But for now, that figure of half a billion is just nonsense. Have a bit of dignity and admit this figure is not accurate.

Liverpool needs a middle class.... where are they going to come from? Why would they want to come to a city infested with verminous humans, sorry, I mean, animals? Liverpool has a disease, and it is not going to be cured by building swanky new apartments with middle-class respectables coming into them. Nor will it be cured by a new rail line. What we have then is a prosperous city centre (a good thing) but what of the inner city? So, they will sneer at the middle classes living in luxurious waterfront apartments? Will this change their behaviour? Will it heck.

You can't cure a disease by making it jealous. And this one will not "just go away". I don't care about the problems of London and other cities, that's their problem. The government have the power to cure this disease, and they can do this through extermination. The scum need to be sterilised, preventing them from breeding. Smackheads can help clean up these underground tunnels and the Aintree-Bootle line. If they step out of line, they will get shot. In the head.
For those not working on the new rail system, they must be placed in concrete prisons, built on derelict land, with no windows, no bed, just a hole to relieve themselves. They will receive one slice of bread and cup of water a day.
Can you imagine how bad this would be? Would ANYONE want to be locked away in a prison like that? Thought not.
Treat scum like scum.
We can even construct floating jails on canals and rivers. The boats would be concrete blocks, with no possible way in or out. Again, no windows or bed, just a slice of bread, in the same we feed ducks in the canal.

[Waterways]

Fantastic!

[Ged]

Is this disease just unique to Liverpool?

I see other cities getting infrastructure money thrown at them!

[Waterways]

Is this disease just unique to Liverpool?

I see other cities getting infrastructure money thrown at them!

Money for concrete prisons?

[jc_everton]

As I say, I don't care about other British cities (as regards to my argument). If they have similar problems, fine. If they don't, fine. Good for them.
This disease is not unique, of course it isn't. Urban social problems exist all over the world. Different governments have different methods of tackling this. Again, in regards to my point, I don't care how successful these methods are, and I don't care about investment.
Actually, of course I care about investment. Investment in guns, ammunition, tanks, helicopters, armed police, prisons, all this is good. Once we get the law and order in place, only then can we build "Sustainable Communities". And then we can attract middle-classes in to the city, and build fancy new rail lines, and so forth.
Again, I drove through Walton and Bootle earlier today, and again I saw mounds of litter, smackheads, scumbags, and a society which bears more of a resemblance to Little Britain, not a "world-class city of culture".

[Waterways]

How about people with guns in every train then. Then the rail system can be up and running ASAP.

[Ged]

Well i'm afraid until the good people stand up and be counted - or at least use the crimestoppers number anonymously more often, it'll remain so.

Interesting that the crime free Capital city of Lithuania, Vilnius has taken over our capital of culture status.

For me, getting bobbies back on the beat would be a surefire election winner as would getting tougher on knife/gun carriers and harbourers - one strike.

Failing that, stop trying to poilce the world, leave it to America and use some of the army on the streets where needed and watch the plazzy gangsta culture evaporate when faced with real opposition. We could have utopia if it wasn't in the government's interest to seemingly keep some people down.

[oritelad]

i hope we do see the waterloo tunnel used again but you know what merseytravel are like spend a few million on a bootle station that i doubt that area would apresiate or even deserve is hardly used of even needed or take 2 years for a new sandhills station back in the good days of the railway they wouldnt stand for that!! its true the goverment ect are fools they ruin our city and i agree about the amount of scum on our streets its horrible to walk round they city center even they are everywhere its getting worse as for these young thugs in dressed in black bin bags from what i can see that are everywhere these days just createing evil could easyly be stopped if the government woke up why should the govermnet support scummy parents who have as many kids as they can and dont intend to work just drink have sex and smoke and drugs and we are they ones that have to put up with their evil offspring i mean 1 child per family should be there rule if they dont intend to bloody work!!

[Waterways]

Wow!" Oritelad, that was all one sentence and not one comma. :)

[merseywail]

Thougth this thread was about railways ? The thing with the rise of the scum is to create hell on earth, all going to plan so far !

[Ged]

I suppose it is people who have gone off the rails.

[Waterways]

They should all be trained.

[Ged]

Is it possible though, most are Loco.

[Waterways]

They should be railroaded into being trained.