BBC documentary series on CCTV

[Ged]

I was always all for it anyway but this programme showed how it can stop killings by getting police to yobbish kickings being given out after the clubs let out and also possibly saved a young idiotic girl walking home alone at 3am by some bushes, who was then dragged in.

In Newcastle, they even have the control room operators talking to loons. One lad picked up a road sign and traffic cone and looked very puzzled when told to put it back down as he was being watched. He did though.

The more sophisticated of cameras, one in a swimming baths wall at the deep end even saved a young girl from drowning by setting off an alarm.

Others in town centres caught drug dealers operating openly, stolen cars triggering off alarms (unbeknownst to the drivers) and shop ones zoomed so close that they even caught shoplifters trying to scrape the tags off cds.

I'd rather have a cctv next to me at the cashpoint than the nutter who may be put off by its presence.

[A.D.W]

Ever read '1984' by George Orwell, Ged? I suggest you do. I say no to CCTV and yes to tougher sentences for criminals.

[Ged]

Yes and animal farm. Over rated. The government already have everything they need to know on you (and yet, not on illegal immigrants)

I don't mind cctv catching me scratching my arse or picking my nose as long as it saves me dying getting my head kicked in. Did you see the programme. I suggest you do because just because your paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. :slywink:

If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear. Liberty would be against it of course, like they are, all decent ideas. I'm all for a dna database from birth too.

[phredd]

Ged:-
A very good post on a very contentious subject.
Me ? Nothing to hide, so I am not worried about CCTV. If it keeps me safe I am all for it.
It,s either CCTV or a 'Mini-cam' inplant in the back of your head.

A.D = If 'Big Brother' is watching me you will be safe :)
Phredd

[steveb]

Ever read '1984' by George Orwell, Ged? I suggest you do. I say no to CCTV and yes to tougher sentences for criminals.

why ?, what have you got to hide. It has been proved that in certain
places CCTV saves lives and does reduce crime. OK some think of Big Brother
but it is the case if CCTV is used as intended

[A.D.W]

What have I got to hide? Plenty. In a free society people shouldn't have to be watched by their government.

[Ged]

A bloke sitting upstairs in Virgin Megastore or a copper in a control room or someone watching my back isn't necessarily the government though is it?

I'd think again if I were you because it's here now whether you like it or not and I bet if you shopped in Lord st or Church st this morning they could trace which shops you went into, how many bogeys you picked and if you dropped any litter at the flick of a switch already.

By the way, it was also proven on the programme that it works both ways and can be used in your defence.

[steveb]

What have I got to hide? Plenty. In a free society people shouldn't have to be watched by their government.

Who says it is the government ?. I take it you watched both parts of
the prog, if so you will have seen that apart from helping convict people
it also helps prove them inocent. I bet you would change your attitude if
CCTV prevented you getting your head kicked in , or your house trashed

[A.D.W]

Who says it is the government ?. I take it you watched both parts of
the prog, if so you will have seen that apart from helping convict people
it also helps prove them inocent. I bet you would change your attitude if
CCTV prevented you getting your head kicked in , or your house trashed

I 'don't need no stickin' CCTV' to protect me as I can more than handle myself.

[Ged]

One absolutely fantastic piece of ingenuity followed the killing of a man who was just minding his own business making his way home from the tube to his house in London and he was killed within yards of his front door by a gang of 6 including a girl or two.

Zooming in you could make out the markings on the clothing but not their faces as they were hoodies. It became clear that a tramp who'd been kicked senseless whilst sleeping in an alleyway and a number of train disturbances where they ran amok unchecked were also down to them.

Whilst beating the tramp up one of the gang used a wall to lever himself for better swinging of his boot. Police zoomed in on the very spot and fingerprinted it, hey presto he was known, sought out and all 6 were sentenced. The only thing I agree on with you A.D. is that they should have got 25 years each - no early release for good behaviour (that should be expected without saying) - but increased if not well behaved.

[Ged]

I 'don't need no stickin' CCTV' to protect me as I can more than handle myself.


With the greatest of respect, you could be 7ft and 25 stone but if someone comes up behind you with a crowbar or 6 steroid filled nutters who think they can fly start laying into you I reckon you'd scream like a *****.

[steveb]

I 'don't need no stickin' CCTV' to protect me as I can more than handle myself.


Boy you have a strange attitude .

How can being able to handle yourself prevent your house, car etc being trashed when you are not there ?. Did you see the 2 progs ?, if so in prog
1 you will have seen a chap on holiday in Spain being able to monitor the cctv in his house in England and alert the UK police that it was being trashed
resulting in a couple of convictions.
Cenario 2, you are walking down a deserted city center street at 2am, you
are approached by a group of 15 big guys armed with baseball bats, an argument ensues because you won't give them your mobile phone. A nearby
cctv system with talkback is activated by the operator who through the loudspeaker informs the gang that the police are on the way, they clear off
leaving you to moan another day about civil liberties etc, i doubt that
"being able to handle myself", would have been much good if cctv was not there . Anyway, that is my 2p,s worth....

[Ged]

Mind you. As long as Snappel is exempt from prosecution.

[steveb]

Mind you. As long as Snappel is exempt from prosecution.

don't think he has ever been caught, yet :PDT11

[lindylou]

Yes and animal farm. Over rated. The government already have everything they need to know on you (and yet, not on illegal immigrants)

I don't mind cctv catching me scratching my arse or picking my nose as long as it saves me dying getting my head kicked in. Did you see the programme. I suggest you do because just because your paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. :slywink:

If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear. Liberty would be against it of course, like they are, all decent ideas. I'm all for a dna database from birth too.



:handclap: spot on Ged.

I agree entirely.

I couldn't care if a camera was on me all day ! My routine is so mundane It would be so boring watching me, Ha! I don't have anything to hide.

I've read both of those books too.

[A.D.W]

There are no left and right of politics these day only those who serve the establishment and those who do not. It is a great shame that this forum has so many of the former. Oh well as long as you have your football and ale all is well I suppose.

:PDT_Xtremez_42:

I personally consider the police to be but an arm of the said establishment and therefore they get no respect from me.

[Walden]

Not everyone is a comfortable with the idea of CCTV. Here is an extract from an article I found.

"It stands to reason that if you have a camera trained on a shopping centre, a car park, a hotel lobby or a bus stop, we must be safer.

Well, actually, it does not follow at all. One problem is that cameras take the place of other forms of crime prevention, such as more police or better street lighting.

You might feel safer and the mugger may well think twice before striking if he thinks a CCTV camera is about. But they can engender complacency; and if cameras are so effective in preventing crime, why have the numbers of town-centre assaults and robberies shot up even as CCTV has mushroomed?

The iconic CCTV images we all remember are of crimes happening, or about to happen, not of them being prevented: the grainy image of Jamie Bulger being led away by two boys to his death; Jill Dando shopping before she was murdered on her doorstep; the four July 7 bombers boarding a train at Luton en route to London. "

the rest is here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/03/26/do2602.xml)

[lindylou]

There are no left and right of politics these day only those who serve the establishment and those who do not. It is a great shame that this forum has so many of the former. Oh well as long as you have your football and ale all is well I suppose.

:PDT_Xtremez_42:

I personally consider the police to be but an arm of the said establishment and therefore they get no respect from me.

how d'ya' mean A.D. ? .. the bit about serving the establishment or not, and there being too many of the former on here .. am I one ?? .. not sure what you mean like.


By not serving the establishment do you mean like in an anarchy kind of way; a breaking of rules & laws kind of way; anti-monarchy or against the government kind of way ??

[steveb]

how d'ya' mean A.D. ? .. the bit about serving the establishment or not, and there being too many of the former on here .. am I one ?? .. not sure what you mean like.


By not serving the establishment do you mean like in an anarchy kind of way; a breaking of rules & laws kind of way; anti-monarchy or against the government kind of way ??

I would leave him alone in his utopian world.
I think he means that the police are part of the big brother system which
he also classes cctv as

[Ged]

They are to be frowned upon by them - until he needs them that is.

Walden. cctv is not there to 'replace' anything, it is there as well as. Police numbers have never been cut 'because of' cctv so are we to have neither?

The cctv enthusiasts make it perfectly clear that they are to suppliment safety and when the control room operators put out a call to the response units, all the ones shown, and there were plenty, arrived in good time to prevent further serious injury to the victims.

Until the thick skulls of thugs can be penetrated to get to the root cause of their destructive behaviour against other people and their property, i'm afraid cctv is a must to at least catch them, even if it doesn't prevent them in all cases.

As for iconic images. How can we know how many more images there would have been but for the prevention mentioned above. As you know, the saying goes 'Even if it prevents one more fatality etc etc - it's been worth it'

[john]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-e_CLmZGys

[Walden]

As you know, the saying goes 'Even if it prevents one more fatality etc etc - it's been worth it'

Not that old chestnut. By banning cars we would prevent the fatality of many and that would be worth it I take it!!!.

Funny how peoples support CCTV but are very hostile to speed cameras which are seen as interfering in peoples daily life but which arguably could result in saving many lives.

There are many legitimate questions around the use of CCTV, like who has access to the image and how would they be used which at present seems unclear. And all of this presided over by a government riddled with sleaze and corruption and that wants MP's exempt from Freedom of Information legislation is in its self a worry.

There may be a place for CCTV but to me it is un-natural to show no concern about being constantly monitored. Not wanting your every move recorded does not make you a criminal as seems to be implied when anyone objects to surveillance.

[Steven]

I don't know how true this is ? However, a mate of mine was caught on a 'speed camera' and was sent a picture (by the police) which clearly showed him driving the car, his plate number and the time of day. The letter also included a demand for £60.

He wrote a cheque out for £60, then took a photo of it and sent it to the police.

In return, he received from them a photo of a pair of handcuffs.

Great that 'the boys in Blue' - here, still have a sense of humour. At least here some do.

[Ged]

Ha ha, Great story Steven. It appears Walden has been nicked for stealing pik n' mix in woolies at some point :unibrow:

[A.D.W]

I am supposed to respect the police? Would that be the same police that chased a Brazilian fellow on the mean streets of the London village and then held him down on a tube train and then shot him eight times in the head? They thought him a 'terrorist'. I should point out that none of the policeman invloved in this murder have been up before the beak.

Respect the police? I t'ink not.

:PDT_Xtremez_42:

[Walden]

Ha ha, Great story Steven. It appears Walden has been nicked for stealing pik n' mix in woolies at some point :unibrow:

From the BBC

"A senior police officer has warned that we are in danger of becoming an "Orwellian" society, as a result of growing electronic surveillance.

In an interview with the BBC's Politics Show, the deputy chief constable of Hampshire Ian Readhead questioned the use of CCTV cameras in small towns and villages where crime rates were low.

Mr Readhead also called for the retention of some DNA evidence and the use of speed cameras to be reviewed. "

Another one caught nicking from the pik n' mix and by the sounds of it an Orwell fan too. No mate of yours then Ged. :)

[Ged]

We're all entitled to differing opinions but the easiest way to sort this little dilemma out is, i've given some factual information from a t.v. programme showing how a girls life was saved in the swimming baths, how thugs were prevented from kicking some bloke senseless, how morons damaging property were brought to book, how a bloke who dragged a lone girl into bushes was spotted and scared off etc etc.... how about some factual information (not hearsay and what ifs) about how cctv has been misused to the point of its being here outweighing the instances mentioned above.

[lindylou]

I can't understand why people are so parandoid about being watched.
Unless you are doing something shifty you don't want anyone to see :ninja:

.. ha,Ha! the mind boggles :unibrow:

I don't mind at all if I am on camera.

[steveb]

We're all entitled to differing opinions but the easiest way to sort this little dilemma out is, i've given some factual information from a t.v. programme showing how a girls life was saved in the swimming baths, how thugs were prevented from kicking some bloke senseless, how morons damaging property were brought to book, how a bloke who dragged a lone girl into bushes was spotted and scared off etc etc.... how about some factual information (not hearsay and what ifs) about how cctv has been misused to the point of its being here outweighing the instances mentioned above.

The one that springs to mind was the Bootle TV operators watching
some woman

[Ged]

Naughty :unibrow:

But is that it? does that outweigh the good they can do ?

[Walden]

We're all entitled to differing opinions but the easiest way to sort this little dilemma out is, i've given some factual information from a t.v. programme showing how a girls life was saved in the swimming baths, how thugs were prevented from kicking some bloke senseless, how morons damaging property were brought to book, how a bloke who dragged a lone girl into bushes was spotted and scared off etc etc.... how about some factual information (not hearsay and what ifs) about how cctv has been misused to the point of its being here outweighing the instances mentioned above.

I didn't see the programme but do wonder if some of the instances mentioned could have been prevented in any other way i.e. improved street lighting which is said to reduce crime and anti-social disorder and generally improve the environment encouraging more people to use it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/4599494.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/3195529.stm

And how many people had drowned at this swimming pool prior to the introduction of the CCTV? Wouldn't well trained observant lifeguards have sorted this problem out?

I'm not convince it has to be CCTV.

Many people feel that once this stuff is in place it would be hard to remove and who is to say what laws there might be, in the not to distant future, which could of a very draconian nature.

"Report warns on misuse of CCTV

Filed under: CCTV, Surveillance, Society
A report from the Royal Academy of Engineering warns that surveillance and the collection of personal date could endanger privacy and even put lives at risk.

The ‘Dilemmas of Privacy and Surveillance’ report suggests that there are now so many CCTV cameras in Britain that installing any more should be halted until their need is proven.

More research is recommended to find out whether the benefits of CCTV outweigh their intrusion into people’s privacy.

CCTV footage could be watched on the Internet for voyeuristic reasons and could even provide terrorists with information to help them identify the best locations for setting off a bomb to cause the maximum damage.

The report suggests that CCTV cameras could be overseen by the communities they serve or the people they watch.

It also raises concerns over the number of databases holding detailed personal information which could be stolen or destroyed by terrorists or criminals.

It urges governments and companies to encrypt databases, keep the minimum amount of data for a minimum amount of time, and regularly check for errors in the system. "

Source (http://www.cctv-core.co.uk/27-03-2007-report-warns-on-misuse-of-cctv.html)

[Walden]

The one that springs to mind was the Bootle TV operators watching
some woman

I think it this one

Peeping tom CCTV workers jailed

Two council CCTV camera operators have been jailed for spying on a naked woman in her own home.
Mark Summerton and Kevin Judge, from Sefton Council, Merseyside, trained a street camera into the woman's flat.

At Liverpool Crown Court, Summerton, 37, of Kirkdale, Liverpool, admitted voyeurism and attempted voyeurism. He was sentenced to four months in prison.

Judge, 42, from Waterloo, admitted misconduct in public office and was jailed for two months.

He was cleared of voyeurism last month.

Summerton was also ordered to sign the Sex Offenders' Register.

The rest is here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/4609746.stm)

[steveb]

Naughty :unibrow:

But is that it? does that outweigh the good they can do ?

Hi
that one is just the one that springs to instant memory. No far from it
Iam sure the good about cctv far out weighs the bad.

[Ged]

Proving that misuse can be punished. The attendants hadn't spotted the girl, it was the cctv alone then the attendants were alerted, it even gave out the exact location within the pool.

Another showed an employee stealing from his employers.

In a recent case in Liverpool, cctv on a bus, used for the safety of passengers and to deter/prosecute unruly or damaging behaviour, was used to knock back a compensation claim from a woman claiming to be injured as another bus brushed the rear offside corner of the bus (problem was, she wasn't even on the bus yet) - The very same evidence was then used to prosecute her.

[steveb]

Yep! that is the one

[lindylou]

The one that springs to mind was the Bootle TV operators watching
some woman

I can't remember all the details of that case. I know it was very bad that the woman was being spied on. I seem to remember they watched her undressing.
Obviouly in that case that's the time when you do want privacy. It's up to you to make sure your curtains are drawn !!!

I don't object to being on camera when I'm walking in the street or shopping, or whatever daily life entails, but your own personal privacy is common sense - just shut the door and pull the blinds ! ha!

[Gerard]

I think the issue here is where its all going,I dont have a problem with cctv being used in the right circumstances but I do object to secret cameras being planted in Lamposts in the street...
10 years ago outside my front door a chap was spotted hanging around at 5 in the morning messing about with a Lamp post.
After beating them at their own game and watching this every morning for well over a month it turns out this chap was changing tapes or something in a Box fitted in the street at the bottom of the Lampost..
After neighbours complaining about this the Box was removed and the camera in the street Light was removed and to this day we dont know what was going on..
No body has ever been arrested or charged with anything relating to this before anyone says it must have been there for a reason..
The camera was there for months and not a dicky bird..

That was over 10 years ago and the Camera was smaller than a box of matches....
Theyv'e propably got them hidden in blades of grass now...Catch my drift ?

I was a Security Guard for 10 years and these cctv systems helped me greatly but it is out of order the way all this big brother stuff is going..

Gerard...master of surveilance..:ninja::unibrow:..Im onter yer..

[Walden]

I can't remember all the details of that case. I know it was very bad that the woman was being spied on. I seem to remember they watched her undressing.

That's right, they watched her undress for a bath, use the toilet and spied on her embracing her boyfriend as their relationship ended.


Obviouly in that case that's the time when you do want privacy. It's up to you to make sure your curtains are drawn !!!

she lived in a first-floor flat and I assume she felt she was safe in her own home. The camera had been angled to spy into the flat.


I don't object to being on camera when I'm walking in the street or shopping, or whatever daily life entails, but your own personal privacy is common sense - just shut the door and pull the blinds ! ha!

A statement from the victim, read out during the trial, said she was left feeling "up-set and angry".

"I feel my privacy has been taken away and as if someone has been in my flat without permission."


Source (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_method=full%26objectid=16594919%26siteid=50061-name_page.html)

[lindylou]

It is dreadful and the woman is not to be blamed - but I do wonder why her curtains were not drawn over while she was using the bathroom. ??

[Ged]

http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/liverpoolecho/news/echonews/tm_headline=spy%2Din%2Dthe%2Dsky-on-test-flight%26method=full%26objectid=19144498%26siteid= 50061-name_page.html