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wsteve55
12-04-2010, 01:16 AM
Heard on the news today,that the Ark Royal has sailed into Portsmouth for de-commisioning,3 years earlier than planned,and will also make the Seaharrier redundant! It seems more than a little strange to leave the U.K. without this capability,but I can only assume they know what they are doing?!Here are a couple of pic's showing the Harriers leaving for the last time,and sailing into Portsmouth.


Photo's courtesy of Royal Navy/Reuters.

captain kong
12-04-2010, 11:27 AM
The Argentinos are celebrating, there is nothing to stop them attacking the Falklands now.
The French wont help they were assisting Argentina last time in `82.

wsteve55
12-04-2010, 12:42 PM
The Argentinos are celebrating, there is nothing to stop them attacking the Falklands now.
The French wont help they were assisting Argentina last time in `82.

So I wonder where that leaves us,if, we went ahead with the hare-brained scheme to share aircraft carriers,with the French??............maybe fire Exocet's at ourselves!

NickPantera
12-04-2010, 12:55 PM
The Argentinos are celebrating, there is nothing to stop them attacking the Falklands now.
The French wont help they were assisting Argentina last time in `82.

Tourist Boats are all Argentinos have left

wsteve55
12-04-2010, 01:44 PM
Tourist Boats are all Argentinos have left

The Argentine navy consists of 42 vessels,including 4 destroyers,9 corvettes,and 3 sub's,so no tourists allowed!They are only 290 miles away,while we are nearly 8,000!

NickPantera
12-04-2010, 03:53 PM
The Argentine navy consists of 42 vessels,including 4 destroyers,9 corvettes,and 3 sub's,so no tourists allowed!They are only 290 miles away,while we are nearly 8,000!


:celb (23):
:unibrow:

Are they gonna fight with all 3 sub's? :s

GeorgePorgie
12-04-2010, 04:35 PM
Isn't the Falklands part of Argentina anyway and not Britsish Soveriegnty? I think Britain is acting like the states over Iraq ie Oil fields war.

NickPantera
12-04-2010, 04:42 PM
Falklands have never been part of Argentine. And it was never a sovereign state so can't compare to Iraq

GeorgePorgie
12-04-2010, 04:50 PM
6 Nov 1820 Argentina claims sovereignty.
1826 Settlement at Port Louis re-established by
Frenchman Louis Vernet who obtains a grant to
all the Falkland Islands and their resources
from the government of Argentina.


20 May 1774 British withdraw, but continue to claim
sovereignty over all the Falkland Islands.

NickPantera
12-04-2010, 04:54 PM
again Falklands were never part of the Argentine state. That didn't stop a businessman to get there. Britain got back in 1833 and never left since then. So, saying now that Falklands belongs to Argentine is a bit too much

wsteve55
12-04-2010, 05:49 PM
:celb (23):
:unibrow:

Are they gonna fight with all 3 sub's? :s

Only takes 1! Ask the Belgrano crew!!

---------- Post added at 05:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 PM ----------


again Falklands were never part of the Argentine state. That didn't stop a businessman to get there. Britain got back in 1833 and never left since then. So, saying now that Falklands belongs to Argentine is a bit too much

It "belongs" to the indigenous population,who say "We are British",nuff said!

captain kong
12-04-2010, 05:55 PM
When English explorer John Davis, commander of the Desire, one of the ships belonging to Thomas Cavendish's second expedition to the New World, separated from Cavendish off the coast of what is now southern Argentina, he decided to make for the Strait of Magellan in order to find Cavendish. On 9 August 1592 a severe storm battered his ship, and Davis drifted under bare masts, taking refuge "among certain Isles never before discovered." Consequently, for a time the Falklands were known as "Davis Land" or "Davis' Land."

In 1594, they were visited by English commander Richard Hawkins, who, combining his own name with that of Queen Elizabeth I, the "Virgin Queen", gave the islands the name of "Hawkins' Maidenland."

Many nations tried to take them including the Spanish, Dutch, French and even a Turk over the Centuries.
Argentina did not become a Nation until July 1816, Britain had the Islands 220 years before that
It was the British who populated the Islands and developed them with the sheep industry.
I went there in 1958 to load a cargo of Bales of wool. The Argies were moaning about it then, The regular Falkland Islands supply ship the DARWEN for the Islands ran between Stanley and Punta Arenas in Chile so they didnt need Argentina.
Because it is 300 miles off the Argie Coast does not mean they can claim it, many Islands lay less than that near other countries but they dont claim them. eg. The USA does not demand the Bahamas because it is only 80 miles off the Coast, or the west African State of Mauretania demand the Canary Islands because it is only 100 miles off its coast. and also many other examples. The Argies can go and get stuffed.
The population is British and say they want to remain British. They do NOT want Argie rule.
It cannot look after its own citzens. What happened to the 15,000 Deschemisados, the shirtless ones, or poor people. They are being found in mass graves. All killed by the State for complaining about their poverty.
I was in Buenos Aires last year, 2009, every Thursday afternoon all the widows gather in the Plaza facing the Pink Palace with photos of their loved ones, they stand in silence all afternoon. They have been doing this for several years now. They are surounded by the Militia with guns. I have a few photos of them A very sad event to see, The Government does not want to know, the widows just want answers.

Samsette
12-04-2010, 07:47 PM
Sorry to be such a pedant.................well, actually I love it. Presidente Juan Peron and the lovely Evita used the support of los descamisados to stay in power. The ones bumped off by the later military junta became known as los desaparesidos, the disappeard ones. Now that we have that serious stuff out of the way, it seems to me that territorial claims are more likely to be settled by international courts in the future.
However, it is sad to see the decline of the once great sea power. First, we gave up the merchant fleet, and now it looks bleak for the fighting fleet.

az_gila
12-05-2010, 04:57 AM
I though the UK was keeping an RAF squadron on the island, but that is apparently not the case -

http://www.defencemanagement.com/news_story.asp?id=12193

A 1000 service folks on the island is a pretty small force.

The UK did build a new airport there, so getting troops and supplies to the island should be quicker - providing the base is intact -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Mount_Pleasant

The last war was partly to get the locals mind off their bad economy - if you are a politician, it's always better to have a foreign govt. to blame, rather than your action, or inaction.

Their economy is still not doing well, especially on inflation, which is what the average citizen sees. From wiki -

...but, where the Economy Ministry has refused to acknowledge inflation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation) greater than 10%, their own measure of implicit private consumption prices (a factor in GDP estimates) suggests inflation had reached nearly 20% by mid-2008, and remains in the order of 12%).[54] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Argentina#cite_note-mecon-53)

NickPantera
12-05-2010, 12:18 PM
The last war was partly to get the locals mind off their bad economy - if you are a politician, it's always better to have a foreign govt. to blame, rather than your action, or inaction.

Their economy is still not doing well, especially on inflation, which is what the average citizen sees.

That is why it's hard to believe they can afford another war more than we do. Anyway, there were no troops on the island in 1982 when Argentine attacked. And I think there was no use of carriers to launch plane attacks during the war, which were unlikely to be brought because they would have harmed the population

az_gila
12-05-2010, 02:45 PM
That is why it's hard to believe they can afford another war more than we do. Anyway, there were no troops on the island in 1982 when Argentine attacked. And I think there was no use of carriers to launch plane attacks during the war, which were unlikely to be brought because they would have harmed the population

No, the UK did use the carriers - wiki quotes -

HMS Hermes

As she was the RN's largest carrier, she was considered too valuable to risk close into the Falklands, due to the possibility of Argentinian AF attacks. Her Harriers therefore operated at the limit of their endurance radius, but were very successful in keeping the enemy aircraft at bay.

HMS Invincible

The Falklands War saw Invincible, and the larger and older HMS Hermes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Hermes_(R12)) filled to capacity with both the Sea Harrier and the Royal Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force) Harrier GR3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Siddeley_Harrier) ground attack variant of the aircraft, along with ASW helicopters. The RAF Harriers proved to be a temporary aberration at the time.

The RAF Harriers were a problem since their INS (Inertial Guidance System - pre-GPS) could not be easily initialized on a non-stationary vessel at sea.

If you are talking about the sole Argentina carrier "25 de Mayo", then you are correct in the fact it was not used, but I think it was more fear of it being sunk like the Agentina battleship "Belgrano", not a concern for the population.

Attacks were being prepared from the 25 de Mayo - from another reference -

Earlier in the week before the British arrival, ships of the Argentine Navy sailed from the north and south of the Falklands as Task Force 79. By early Sunday morning (the 2nd), carrier "25 de Mayo" to the north was preparing to launch a Skyhawk attack which was aborted because of light winds, and that same day both escorting type 42's were involved in separate incidents. "Hercules" readied but fails to fire a Sea Dart against an approaching No.801 Sea Harrier, and "Santisima Trinidad" lost her Lynx in a flying accident [a9]. By then, submarine "San Luis" may have carried out the first of a number of unsuccessful attacks before she returned to port around the end of the month. To the south, Sunday also saw one of the most controversial incidents of the war - the loss of cruiser "General Belgrano" and over 300 men.


http://www.naval-history.net/NAVAL1982FALKLANDS.htm page 24


If a part reason for the war was to distract the Argentina citizens from their local bad economy, losing two major navy ships would have the wrong effect.

captain kong
12-05-2010, 04:41 PM
Here is the MALVINAS WAR MEMORIAL in Buenos Aires, last year

Two young ladies who are more interested in me than the Malvinas.

A line of Militia watching the widows of the `Disapeared`armed with Shields, clubs and guns. I guess they need those against the aging old ladies armed with a photo of their loved ones.

Evita`s grave, she is now buried in her brother in laws grave 30 feet down and covered in concrete after many attemps to dig her up. this in the Recoletta. [ I could not rotate it. ] Evita`s plaque is the big one with her head on it.

Evita`s Pink Palace.

NickPantera
12-05-2010, 08:14 PM
No, the UK did use the carriers

You are right gila
However the RN still has 2 big carriers at the mom

az_gila
12-05-2010, 09:17 PM
You are right gila
However the RN still has 2 big carriers at the mom

Apparently only for this month....


Invincible-class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible_class_aircraft_carrier)aircraft carriers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_carrier) (2)

HMS Ark Royal (R07) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ark_Royal_(R07)) - To be decommissioned in January 2011 (Flagship of the Royal Navy)
HMS Illustrious (R06) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Illustrious_(R06)) - Either HMS Illustrious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Illustrious_(R06)) or HMS Ocean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ocean_(L12)) will be decommissioned, whichever is least capable as a helicopter carrier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_carrier).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_Royal_Navy_ships#cite_note-sdsr-0)
...and it might even go to zero if HMS Ocean wins the Illustrious/Ocean decision.

The new Queen Elizabeth Class carriers will not be around until 2019 at the earliest.

lindylou
12-05-2010, 09:23 PM
Fab pictures Kong. :PDT11 I was interested to see them as I have Argentinian friends in Bs As and Rosario, and I'm always interested to see pics of the country. Did you go on a touristy holiday and stay in a hotel ? or do you have friends there ?

Love the Tango dancer pic :handclap: :)

NickPantera
12-05-2010, 09:29 PM
Apparently only for this month....


Invincible-class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible_class_aircraft_carrier)aircraft carriers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_carrier) (2)

HMS Ark Royal (R07) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ark_Royal_(R07)) - To be decommissioned in January 2011 (Flagship of the Royal Navy)
HMS Illustrious (R06) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Illustrious_(R06)) - Either HMS Illustrious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Illustrious_(R06)) or HMS Ocean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ocean_(L12)) will be decommissioned, whichever is least capable as a helicopter carrier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_carrier).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_Royal_Navy_ships#cite_note-sdsr-0)
...and it might even go to zero if HMS Ocean wins the Illustrious/Ocean decision.

The new Queen Elizabeth Class carriers will not be around until 2019 at the earliest.

I was talking about the Albion and Bulwark.
They are pretty new http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Bulwark_%28L15%29

captain kong
12-05-2010, 10:57 PM
Fab pictures Kong. :PDT11 I was interested to see them as I have Argentinian friends in Bs As and Rosario, and I'm always interested to see pics of the country. Did you go on a touristy holiday and stay in a hotel ? or do you have friends there ?

Love the Tango dancer pic :handclap: :)

Hi Lindylou,
I had four days in Buenos Aires on my way down to the Antarctic, Stayed at the Crown Plaza just across the road from the Memorial.
B.A. was always a good run ashore for Seafaring men, alas, I was disapointed. all the Seamans bars had disapeared, only one or two in La Boca where I met the two young ladies, the wife was not amused. I flew from there to Ushuaia on Tierra del Fuego then sailed South to the Antarctic Continent, Did Deception Island, Elephant Island, South Georgia then Tristan da Cunha and across to Cape Town, a good six week trip.

az_gila
12-06-2010, 05:04 AM
I was talking about the Albion and Bulwark.
They are pretty new http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Bulwark_%28L15%29

Different definitions - I only call it a carrier if it has actual planes on it...:)

I think the navy calls those two "Landing Platform Docks"

NickPantera
12-06-2010, 01:00 PM
Different definitions - I only call it a carrier if it has actual planes on it...:)

I think the navy calls those two "Landing Platform Docks"

okay okay!!!!! :thumbsup::PDT1

az_gila
12-06-2010, 02:45 PM
I think the navy calls those two "Landing Platform Docks"


okay okay!!!!! :thumbsup::PDT1

It is interesting that they are about the same size (tonnage) though...:Smiliz_Kingz_PDT_13

NickPantera
12-06-2010, 02:57 PM
yeah and probably they could be used for the new generation of aircraft which don't need long strips for landing and taking off, but they just move like helicopters

Samsette
12-07-2010, 05:09 AM
Any guesses as to who the potential enemy might be? I mean between now and 2019, when the new carrier(s) come into commission.
Someone is bound to say "France.":)

NickPantera
12-07-2010, 09:51 AM
No Sam. Why you always guessing about future

lindylou
12-07-2010, 11:01 AM
Hi Lindylou,
I had four days in Buenos Aires on my way down to the Antarctic, Stayed at the Crown Plaza just across the road from the Memorial.
B.A. was always a good run ashore for Seafaring men, alas, I was disapointed. all the Seamans bars had disapeared, only one or two in La Boca where I met the two young ladies, the wife was not amused. I flew from there to Ushuaia on Tierra del Fuego then sailed South to the Antarctic Continent, Did Deception Island, Elephant Island, South Georgia then Tristan da Cunha and across to Cape Town, a good six week trip.

My friend in Bs As has a daughter living in Ushuaia.

captain kong
12-07-2010, 01:30 PM
My friend in Bs As has a daughter living in Ushuaia.

Hi Lindylou,
Ushuaia is alovely little town on Tierra del Fuego, of "Fin del Mondo" end of the world. The most southerly town on the planet.
Remiscent of some small Canadian towns I have seen in the Rockies. good shopping and very dramatic scenary, the Mountains around are always covered in snow. It is on the Beagle Channel which takes you down to Cape Horn, "Cabo de Hornus".
It is now getting popular for Cruise ships. I was first there in 1958 to load guanacos, alpacas or Llamas for the european Zoos.
Not changed much over the years.

Off to Norfolk VA. for a few days, to see a sick friend, with two nights in New York to do a bit of shopping . Adious.

Samsette
12-07-2010, 11:12 PM
No Sam. Why you always guessing about future

Because I do not have a crystal ball. Do you want to lend me yours?:)

NickPantera
12-08-2010, 01:30 AM
I thought you needed bananas instead

Samsette
12-08-2010, 05:09 AM
Are you perhaps referring to a previous post about not buying green bananas? I"ll explain; it is just one of the many silly little remarks that elderly people use in joking about the likelihood that they may not be around long enough to see the bananas ripen. Thanks for your concern, Nick, but I'm going to be hanging around here for a while longer. Unless, of course, I get the boot.

NickPantera
12-08-2010, 09:35 AM
Yeah I kinda figured out! I wish you a long living life. I was just joking cause I'm always up for a laugh