Web sites

[sweetcheeks]

Has anybody created their own website? Was it easy and did you use dreamweaver. I would like to create one but have no idea how easy it would be.

[john]

If you click on the members list above and scroll down the list you will notice the WWW sign, that indicates that people have got a website have a look at some of them for ideas.
The question is 'what do you want the website for, what do you want it to do?'

I have a site and I used a WYSIWYG site (what you see is what you get) so you build up the page adding features to it, and you can the page developing. You then make links to other pages/sites. I found it really easy to do.
I use the webspace that came with my broadband account, it does the job and people have gave very positive comments on the site.

I am sure once you start people will give you advice

I hope this helps
John

[sweetcheeks]

Thanks John I want to build a website for my business, have seen some template websites that may do the job short term but they don't seem to have the feel of a website done by yourself. I work with children and so need a child friendly site full of bright colours that allows me to use my photos etc and would have all the necessary tags or whatever they are called to get a good spot on search engines.
Thanks for your reply.

[john]

There was abit of a discussion on the Photo Discussion board in a thread entitled My new website have a read of that, Imake answer one or two of your questions.

what business are you in?
Maybe google some children friendly sites to see how they are presented.

John

[GingerTheCat]

Hi Sweetcheeks,

As its for your business I would think twice about doing it yourself. There is a lot to consider when creating a website and I would say you should leave it to a professional website designer.

For example do you know about the recent changes in the law with respect to what information a website must give about your business. Do you know about the DDA act. Do you know how to make your site display correctly on a range of browsers not just Internet Explorer. What about Macs. Do you know how to make your site hacker proof. etc etc

Have a look here (http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/layer?r.l1=1073861197&topicId=1075384855&r.l2=1073866263&r.s=tl) for some independent advice

If you want to get your site found, this can be really difficult. Just type "SEO" into google to find plenty of information on this subject.

Good luck anyway

Mike

[Kev]

Thanks John I want to build a website for my business, have seen some template websites that may do the job short term but they don't seem to have the feel of a website done by yourself. I work with children and so need a child friendly site full of bright colours that allows me to use my photos etc and would have all the necessary tags or whatever they are called to get a good spot on search engines.
Thanks for your reply.

Sweetcheeks - companies will charge thousands to develop a site for organisations that resemble the sites you see whilst browsing around. There are some excellent templates that use CSS knocking around and free too :PDT11

Click here for some freebies (http://www.elated.com/pagekits/)

[GingerTheCat]

Sweetcheeks - companies will charge thousands to develop a site for organisations that resemble the sites you see whilst browsing around.

I presume you don't want another tesco or microsoft though.

A professional web designer will only charge hundreds for a 5 page basic site, not thousands.

Kevs right though there are some good open source (i.e. free) templates around.

Mike

[Kev]

Not to panic Sweetcheeks :). I have done one recently and the cost was 600 pound which included construction, domain name registration and 1 years hosting plus database management.

[theninesisters]

Hi Sweetcheeks (gotta muscle in here)

I run my own Website design business at www.jonathonwild.co.uk

If you like what you see and you want to commission me for a website - give me a shout :PDT11

[Howie]

You could try the free templates and tutorials available at WebDesignHelper.co.uk (http://www.webdesignhelper.co.uk/)

[GingerTheCat]

Sorry Howie,

A MUCH MUCH MUCH better site for free website templates is Open Source Web Design (http://www.oswd.org/)

Well in my humble opinion of course. :)

Make sure you go for their favourite designs or the most popular though.



Mike

[petecarr]

Hi Sweetcheeks (gotta muscle in here)

I run my own Website design business at www.jonathonwild.co.uk

If you like what you see and you want to commission me for a website - give me a shout :PDT11

Why should someone pay you when they can sign up to Moonfruit (http://www.moonfruit.com/index.html) and do it themselves? I wouldn't use Moonfruit at all since they're 99% Flash based and contain very little HTML for SEO purposes, which is hard enough as it is. If you want a simple site sign up to Wordpress.com (http://wordpress.com/) which is free and has some lovely templates to choose from. If in a few months you find it doesn't suit your needs, then look for something better. It can't hurt for now. Free hosting, free design. If you combine it with a free Flickr (http://www.flickr.com) account you'll be able to post images on the site too.

[Kev]

If you want an identity with a 'proper' domain name ie (www.yoursite.com), you still have to pay for them plus hosting, wordpress is free but database management etc becomes a minefield.

[theninesisters]

Why should someone pay you when they can sign up to Moonfruit (http://www.moonfruit.com/index.html) and do it themselves? I wouldn't use Moonfruit at all since they're 99% Flash based and contain very little HTML for SEO purposes, which is hard enough as it is. If you want a simple site sign up to Wordpress.com (http://wordpress.com/) which is free and has some lovely templates to choose from. If in a few months you find it doesn't suit your needs, then look for something better. It can't hurt for now. Free hosting, free design. If you combine it with a free Flickr (http://www.flickr.com) account you'll be able to post images on the site too.


Because they're paying for my time. People are more than welcome to use moonfruit themselves, but if they have little experience and want something to look good that I've had the experience of doing, then they pay for me to sit at a PC all day.

[Kev]

Thats the thing Jona, time. Some people would rather u do all the hard work for them which is great because unless you enjoy making and maintaining websites, its hard work and extremely boring if u are not into it.

[petecarr]

If you want an identity with a 'proper' domain name ie (www.yoursite.com), you still have to pay for them plus hosting, wordpress is free but database management etc becomes a minefield.

Wordpress.com (http://www.wordpress.com) is fully remotely hosted so there aren't any issues. All you do is sign up and they maintain everything. Its like Blogger. So there aren't any costs involved at all. If you want a domain name you can get one for a small fee from Godaddy (http://www.godaddy.com) and web forward it to the Wordpress url. Its no different than pointing a domain to a Moonfruit address.


Because they're paying for my time. People are more than welcome to use moonfruit themselves, but if they have little experience and want something to look good that I've had the experience of doing, then they pay for me to sit at a PC all day.

I would agree with that if you were building them from scratch using Photoshop to do the design, then coding it using XHTML and CSS to W3C standards and accessibility standards but you're not. Moonfruit was designed to be easy for people to make flash websites. Its the Geocities of Flash.


Thats the thing Jona, time. Some people would rather u do all the hard work for them which is great because unless you enjoy making and maintaining websites, its hard work and extremely boring if u are not into it.

Yeah but the thing is he's just using Moonfruit's online site editor. Its a piece of cake, its designed to be. Its not like he's trying to build a cross browser compliant website that's both accessible and SEO enhanced with a PHP/MySQL backend.

This is all mute anyway since Moonfruit is bad for search engines and thats the best reason why you shouldn't use it.

[Kev]

Hi Pete,

I've used Wordpress (content management only), not the remote hosting. Thanks for that.

[petecarr]

Its obviously not as good as your own install, but if you want a quick free website its great. Nicely designed themes, and easy to use. You can pay a small amount and have full control over the CSS, to essentially design your own theme if you wanted.

[sweetcheeks]

Wow :handclap: I feel I have been on a course thank you for all your input some really interesting ideas and will look at all the options. I am lucky this site is full of clever people who know there stuff.
Thanks again :)

[theninesisters]

Wordpress.com (http://www.wordpress.com) is fully remotely hosted so there aren't any issues. All you do is sign up and they maintain

Yeah but the thing is he's just using Moonfruit's online site editor. Its a piece of cake, its designed to be. Its not like he's trying to build a cross browser compliant website that's both accessible and SEO enhanced with a PHP/MySQL backend.

This is all mute anyway since Moonfruit is bad for search engines and thats the best reason why you shouldn't use it.

I have to disagree there - I've never had any problems with search engines at all. I'm number one if you slot in Childwall, no 1 with Sandfield Tower, no 2 with my church towers and so on.

I will totally agree that Moonfruit is very easy to use - is there something in the 'rules' that you have to swot up on html and write it in that for it to be accepted? I've had about 100,000 hits across my websites and work is pouring in. The people that I've done business with have no interest whether I've written it in flash, an on-line editor or html, if it promotes their own business then they're happy - it's a means to an end.
It takes probably about a 1/4 of the time to do it via moonfruit than html, and can look a **** site nicer too - time is money so I use what gives professional results in a small time.

[petecarr]

I have to disagree there - I've never had any problems with search engines at all. I'm number one if you slot in Childwall, no 1 with Sandfield Tower, no 2 with my church towers and so on.

I will totally agree that Moonfruit is very easy to use - is there something in the 'rules' that you have to swot up on html and write it in that for it to be accepted? I've had about 100,000 hits across my websites and work is pouring in. The people that I've done business with have no interest whether I've written it in flash, an on-line editor or html, if it promotes their own business then they're happy - it's a means to an end.

This is how google sees your site (http://www.gritechnologies.com/tools/diagnostic.go?www.wild.moonfruit.com/). It can't read any of the major content, just some of the basic links. There's nothing in the rules about that but I'd hardly call it web design. I did web design for years, since 1995. I know lots of web designers and none of them would call using someone elses site building tool "web design." Web design these days is adhering to WC3 valid semantic html, knowing how to make your site legally accessible, understanding basic SEO, typography, and building cross browser compliant websites. Its like a waiter saying they're a chef because they know how to get the food to the customer. It just seems like such a swizz offering people something they could easily do themselves. If you want to compare hits my photoblog last month had a daily average of 110,000 hits per day.

[Kev]

If you want to compare hits my photoblog last month had a daily average of 110,000 hits per day.

What about its Google Page Rank?

[petecarr]

What about its Google Page Rank?

I've never checked, and I don't feel the need to really. Traffic continues to increase and my pages are appearing on the 1st page for lots of things. For example, the recent Prince Charles visit. I'm on the 1st page for that. Another place, 1st for that. The light show at St Georges hall, 1st for that too. Last month it had over 3.4 million hits.

[theninesisters]

This is how google sees your site (http://www.gritechnologies.com/tools/diagnostic.go?www.wild.moonfruit.com/). It can't read any of the major content, just some of the basic links. There's nothing in the rules about that but I'd hardly call it web design. I did web design for years, since 1995. I know lots of web designers and none of them would call using someone elses site building tool "web design." Web design these days is adhering to WC3 valid semantic html, knowing how to make your site legally accessible, understanding basic SEO, typography, and building cross browser compliant websites. Its like a waiter saying they're a chef because they know how to get the food to the customer. It just seems like such a swizz offering people something they could easily do themselves. If you want to compare hits my photoblog last month had a daily average of 110,000 hits per day.

That's business mate. It's like saying 'well that's a bit of a con getting a valet company coming out to do your car when i can teach you how to do it with a bucket and sponge. I'm here to make money. If the end result is bringing new business via their new website then job well done no matter the route I've taken. They're not there to ask whether I sit in an office and have a team of people running my business, they're asking to commission a website after giving it enough thought to realise that they either haven't got the time to do it or they simply don't know how to do it. I'm happy, the tax man is happy, the commissioner is happy, and I'm happy - especially with far and wide people thanking me for bringing back their childhood memories with my site on Childwall. You do it your way, I'll do it my way and good luck to you mate.

[petecarr]

You do it your way, I'll do it my way and good luck to you mate.

I stopped doing it :D I got bored of office life. Personally I do believe that you can still do a good job without screwing people over just to make money.

[john]

Used Personalwebkit, really easy to use, ok granted it does n't have anything fancy but I like it and others seem to like it, I have ok google rating and have a massive 4557 hits so far.

[theninesisters]

Ooh I've not had a libelous aimed comment at me for ages now, you've made my day.

I suppose I'll have to contact the people via e-mail and my message board at
http://www.childwall.moonfruit.com/message_board and apologise to them for totally leading them up the garden path - that they viewed a website that was actually false and something which they could have done themselves - I mean why look up any information on the net these days when you can just knock up your own website. :rolleyes:
:handclap:

[Kev]

Be careful peeps or the thread will be locked :PDT_Aliboronz_11:

[GingerTheCat]

As far as I know moonfruit websites contravene the DDA and should not be used for businesses. Sorry Jonathon but its a fact.

People with certain disabilities just wont be able to access those websites and its not fair on them is it?

Companies who use a moonfruit site for their business could be sued.

You can read about the DDA here (http://www.webcredible.co.uk/user-friendly-resources/web-accessibility/uk-website-legal-requirements.shtml)

[Kev]

You can read about the DDA here (http://www.webcredible.co.uk/user-friendly-resources/web-accessibility/uk-website-legal-requirements.shtml)

Link doesn't work Ginge. A bit scary though considering the amount of sites out there.

[GingerTheCat]

Link doesn't work Ginge. A bit scary though considering the amount of sites out there.

Thats odd. Link works for me. Try Googling for "dda webcredible" then.

[Kev]

Thats odd. Link works for me. Try Googling for "dda webcredible" then.

Weird, I clicked it again and wallah! Works

[GingerTheCat]

Weird, I clicked it again and wallah! Works

Wallah :confused:

[theninesisters]

As far as I know moonfruit websites contravene the DDA and should not be used for businesses. Sorry Jonathon but its a fact.

People with certain disabilities just wont be able to access those websites and its not fair on them is it?

Companies who use a moonfruit site for their business could be sued.

You can read about the DDA here (http://www.webcredible.co.uk/user-friendly-resources/web-accessibility/uk-website-legal-requirements.shtml)

I've no problem with you bringing that up at all. Moonfruit does use a zoom function in which you can zoom in to any part of the page up to a massive magnifaction - probably more than your standard 'scroll text' can enlarge with HTML so I'm not sure if this would be acceptable or not - I guess moonfruit themselves will have the answer.

What I do object to is someone coming along and thinking they know how your business runs. When I get a commission for a website as I have done in the past, they are given two pieces of information, a, a large contract drawn up by a solicitor, and secondly, information on how the website is being created. Thirdly, as I've done all my business websites via friends and family so far, they get to see how it is being created and every person has come up to me by way of a personal home invitation and said 'wow, I didn't realise that you could create something like this so quickly - I need to go away and expand my work so I can give you more work'. I've never had a single person turn around to me and say 'well I've just given you £500 and all you're doing is an on-line editing, I'll have my money back'.

Everyone is entitled to make money how they see fit, some people will drain oil out of your engine and charge you an hour's labour - it's how up front you want to be. With my business, everyone knows the situation so no one is being 'cheated'.

[Kev]

Wallah :confused:

Ok, not the word i meant to use. Wallah means a person responsible for something.

Erm I was trying to create a 'sound', you know the one. Like a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat. :)

[theninesisters]

Ok, not the word i meant to use. Wallah means a person responsible for something.

Erm I was trying to create a 'sound', you know the one. Like a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat. :)

Voila? (probably spelt wrong) :PDT_Piratz_26:

[Kev]

voilà - thats the one :PDT11

[Howie]

Sorry Howie,

A MUCH MUCH MUCH better site for free website templates is Open Source Web Design (http://www.oswd.org/)

Well in my humble opinion of course. :)

Make sure you go for their favourite designs or the most popular though.



Mike

Thanks, I'll bookmark that for future reference. :thumbsup:

[sweetcheeks]

Well my head hurts now sorry to have started anything other than general discussion, but it goes to show each of us does it differently and ends up with satisfactory results. I will look at various options that you have given me then close my eyes and point to one :unibrow:
Thanks again for all your input have enjoyed reading them:Colorz_Grey_PDT_16:

[snappel]

There's plenty of interesting info above, but you needn't worry too much. Building a website today is very easy. As long as your expectations aren't to great to start with, you should be able to build something quickly and easily.

[snappel]

Everyone is entitled to make money how they see fit, some people will drain oil out of your engine and charge you an hour's labour - it's how up front you want to be. With my business, everyone knows the situation so no one is being 'cheated'.
I've just found time to follow up that DDA link. Interesting stuff. Just makes me wonder though, how would your clients react if they got sued? This is highly unlikely, but something you might like to bare in mind.

[krz8_zombie]

This thread has inspired me to start my own business. I’m now a graphic designer. I can do knock up any image you want with MS Paint (banners, posters and cereal boxes)
Don’t forget now.

[snappel]

Since half an hour ago I became a bacon sandwich taster. I can now taste any bacon sandwich you like.

[Kev]

This thread has inspired me to start my own business. I’m now a graphic designer. I can do knock up any image you want with MS Paint (banners, posters and cereal boxes)
Don’t forget now.


Since half an hour ago I became a bacon sandwich taster. I can now taste any bacon sandwich you like.

If you set your mind to it, u can achieve almost anything - 10 team points each well done :PDT10

[wallasey]

My passion for this rather insignificant corner of Wirral has now spilled over into this...

Derby Road Appreciation Society Homepage (http://www.freewebs.com/derbyroad/)

Like many places, it has suffered from a bad image. But I set out to help change peoples perceptions and bring some pride back into the area. This will be a long and hard task, but with the right connections in the community, its not entirely impossible.

Sadly, the first comment in the guestbook is by a fellow BSFC student to which only shows what the Derby Road Appreciation Society has to do. Change peoples perceptions of this great and vibrant part of the Wirral.

Its currently less than an hour old so theres loads more to do on it!

[sweetcheeks]

Well done Wallasey looks good I hope you drum up interest and support for the area. :handclap:

[wallasey]

Well done Wallasey looks good I hope you drum up interest and support for the area. :handclap:

Its still in its very early stages, but one hopes that it will grow into something more. Fingers crossed!

Thanks for your support.

[Gerard]

Its still in its very early stages, but one hopes that it will grow into something more. Fingers crossed!

Thanks for your support.


Best of luck wallasey and well done ..:handclap:

[foobie]

Apologies for the bump :-)


This is how google sees your site (http://www.gritechnologies.com/tools/diagnostic.go?www.wild.moonfruit.com/). It can't read any of the major content, just some of the basic links.

Yeah, but the front page doesn't have much text on it. If you go past the front page to the welcome page (http://www.gritechnologies.com/tools/diagnostic.go?www.wild.moonfruit.com/WELCOME), you see that google sees all the text perfectly well. No, it doesn't look pretty in text mode, but all the content is there, and each of the other pages in the site is linked as you'd expect.


Web design these days is adhering to WC3 valid semantic html, knowing how to make your site legally accessible, understanding basic SEO, typography, and building cross browser compliant websites. Its like a waiter saying they're a chef because they know how to get the food to the customer. It just seems like such a swizz offering people something they could easily do themselves.

Most moonfruit sites are W3C compliant now (unlike either of your sites, according to the W3C validator (http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fvanilladays.com%2F)). Each logical chunk of text is contained within its own semantic div tag, all images have alt tgs, pages are navigable with the keyboard and readable with screen readers (The common flash issue of the back key not working is also fixed under firefox & IE). Cross browser issues don't affect moonfruit sites, as the flash presentation does away with all the css hacks necessary to have a page look the same under each of the different browsers. If you're stressed about typography then moonfruit has a huge range of graphic textboxes that embed the font within the page, rendering the same on all browsers under all OSes. And of course the text is visible to search engines, unlike having your custom font rendered as a jpeg which is the traditional HTML way. It degrades gracefully to a text-only version with links to a requirements page if the browser doesn't support flash or Javascript (unlike your sites), and the images on a page are viewable with non-flash browsers (again, unlike your sites).

In terms of SEO, each page can have its own title, meta description & keywords. Relative links (eg link rel='index') are there, and there's a hAtom microformat (http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom)-compatible comment widget, which is about as cutting-edge as the semantic web gets. They do the hard work so you don't have to. All the text is readable by search engines, and nobody seems to have too much trouble getting their sites listed on google or other search engines. Try googling for 'jack sparrow' (4th), 'kid rock' (3rd), or 'louise' (1st).

I suppose you advocate coding all HTML by hand, because it's a 'swizz' getting dreamweaver to do it for you?

Sorry if this sounds like a rant, but misinformation and misconceptions sometimes need correcting.

[theninesisters]

Buy that bod a LARGE beer :PDT_Aliboronz_24:

:handclap: :handclap: :PDT11

[petecarr]

Most moonfruit sites are W3C compliant now (unlike either of your sites, according to the W3C validator (http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fvanilladays.com%2F)).

Well I guess I'll just go cry :D Just because my site isn't valid valid WC3 html doesn't make my point any less valid which you clearly agree with since you posted all that text. :handclap:


I suppose you advocate coding all HTML by hand, because it's a 'swizz' getting dreamweaver to do it for you?

Not at all. Dreamweaver is a fantastic product and I already have upgraded to CS3. I've been using it since V1, brilliant product. I do believe that its good practice to know and understand the code that it produces.

[GingerTheCat]

I did think of keeping my head down after foobie's post supporting moonfruit and letting pete take the flak. But as I was on the anti moonfruit side I suppose I should stand up and be counted.

I have to admit it looks like my information was somewhat out of date and moonfruit isn't necessarily evil :surprised but like most things its not straightforward and its just as easy to create a poor moonfruit site as it is to create a poor hand crafted HTML site. The sites foobie mentions (Jack Sparrow and Kid Rock) both report loads of validation errors as do many moonfruit sites, but of course so do many traditional sites.

Perhaps moonfruits not that bad after all but I still can't find much about where its sites stand with respect to the DDA. Perhaps Foobie could enlighten us. This site (http://www.webaim.org/techniques/flash/) shows the difficulties of making a flash site accessible.

Mike

[petecarr]

Gotta admit that I did spend an hour last night tweaking my site to be fully W3C valid. I'm sure there's a page or two that isn't as its got over 750 pages spanning 3 years but the main ones are.

I don't really have an issue with Moonfruit. Its been going for years and it does allow people to make a half decent Flash site with little knowledge. My main issues are with 100% Flash based sites and with hiring someone to build it for you when the whole point is that its designed to be easy for people who don't know Flash. You may as well either use another free template based site, or just play around with the free trial on Moonfruit rather than pay someone to build one for you.

[theninesisters]

Gotta admit that I did spend an hour last night tweaking my site to be fully W3C valid. I'm sure there's a page or two that isn't as its got over 750 pages spanning 3 years but the main ones are.

I don't really have an issue with Moonfruit. Its been going for years and it does allow people to make a half decent Flash site with little knowledge. My main issues are with 100% Flash based sites and with hiring someone to build it for you when the whole point is that its designed to be easy for people who don't know Flash. You may as well either use another free template based site, or just play around with the free trial on Moonfruit rather than pay someone to build one for you.

That's probably the most sensible thing you've said Pete. I understand your concept of the whole 'you should do it yourself' lark but there are people out there who either haven't got the time or really don't have a clue about PC's, let alone busy themselves on their own website. I've never learnt HTML and can't be bothered so I use Moonfruit as it gives me the results that I'm after. What people are paying me for isn't that I'm doing something which they could do themselves, it is for my time and creativity.

When the Stableyard in Edge Hill was being demolished to make way for more student flats, someone rang me up to say that this sale was going ahead in two days time and could I come up with anything on a website to try and stop it. I created http://www.stableyard.moonfruit.com/ in about 24 hours as I had all the information to hand lying there, I then e-mailed it to the seller and told them of this website (false e-mail account and all that) - and on the monday they pulled the sale.

I agree with your morals, but when someone holds up their hands, wants a website and really cannot work on a PC let alone do anything technical, would you sit next to them for a week and help them to do a website for free giving up your time? I certainly wouldn't.

[petecarr]

I agree with your morals, but when someone holds up their hands, wants a website and really cannot work on a PC let alone do anything technical, would you sit next to them for a week and help them to do a website for free giving up your time? I certainly wouldn't.

Yeah I fully appreciate those things as I used to do web design. My boss wouldn't have been happy if I told everyone to go off and setup a free site ;) However I don't do it anymore so I prefer to save people money. I think anyone who can chat on a forum could use Moonfruit or Wordpress.com to get something respectable looking.

[Gerard]

I would love my own Website as you know Jona.
But I dont mind saying that I find it very difficult to say the least at getting my head around these things.
Anyone else or am I the only Divvie on ere.

[theninesisters]

I would love my own Website as you know Jona.
But I dont mind saying that I find it very difficult to say the least at getting my head around these things.
Anyone else or am I the only Divvie on ere.


Anytime you want some free advice Gerard if you set up with Moonfruit lad! :PDT11

[Gerard]

Anytime you want some free advice Gerard if you set up with Moonfruit lad! :PDT11


Thank you Jona mate.much appreciated. :PDT11

[Kev]

But I dont mind saying that I find it very difficult to say the least at getting my head around these things. Anyone else or am I the only Divvie on ere.

Gerard, give it time and build up experience over a period of time and it'll click. Its not easy to gain an understanding of web design and management if you haven't studied web design etc...for several hours a day at college/uni.

I dived right into it as a proper n00b in 2003 without any experience but lots of enthusiasm. Things are much more user friendly in 2007.

[foobie]

I have to admit it looks like my information was somewhat out of date and moonfruit isn't necessarily evil :surprised but like most things its not straightforward and its just as easy to create a poor moonfruit site as it is to create a poor hand crafted HTML site. The sites foobie mentions (Jack Sparrow and Kid Rock) both report loads of validation errors as do many moonfruit sites, but of course so do many traditional sites.

Perhaps moonfruit's not that bad after all but I still can't find much about where its sites stand with respect to the DDA. Perhaps Foobie could enlighten us. This site (http://www.webaim.org/techniques/flash/) shows the difficulties of making a flash site accessible.

You weren't supposed to notice that those sites weren't compliant :-) (I did say 'most sites', perhaps that was a tad optimistic.)

It's getting much better, and I have to admit the html has improved a lot recently - they seem to be really concentrating on getting the SEO side of things up to scratch. But given that their free sites now just use google ads, I guess if the HTML was naff the ads wouldn't have much to do with the page content and hence make them less money.

Like any other web design tool getting something up is only half the battle - getting a decent ranking requires link schmoozing (get your site linked to by some high PR sites) and paying attention to domain name, title, keywords and description. They've done a series of articles on their blog (http://www.moonfruitlounge.com/) about SEO so it does look like they're aware of the reputation around flash sites and are trying to do something about it.

As for the accessibility question, it looks like they're just ignoring the flash-provided accessibility tools and gone for shoving the content in HTML instead. I guess that if you've got to provide the content in HTML for search engines anyway it's easier to rely on the browser to do the accessibility stuff on what is essentially an HTML page with all the content but none of the presentation. The content doesn't seem to be in lexical order though - the louise site has the copyright textbox at the top of the HTML even though it's at the bottom of the page, for example. While I'm sure this doesn't matter too much for SEO, it's probably not great for accessibility.

[Gerard]

Gerard, give it time and build up experience over a period of time and it'll click. Its not easy to gain an understanding of web design and management if you haven't studied web design etc...for several hours a day at college/uni.

I dived right into it as a proper n00b in 2003 without any experience but lots of enthusiasm. Things are much more user friendly in 2007.


Thank's Kev,
Its not easy on a Computer period..Unless its for piccies.:unibrow:

Never had a single lesson on Computer's Kev..Picked it all up myself..which is very limited too be honest.

My Lad gave up on me because I was doing his head in all time with "How do I do this that and the other" so I just plod on and am still learning..
Everyone in the Family though think I'm a Genius with all the Slideshow's and fancy Dvd sleeves I make them...Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee..:)

[sweetcheeks]

I'm with you Gerard I don't understand it at all and thats why I started this thread. I understand it even less now 4 pages later my head hurts::eek:

[snappel]

Most of it won't apply to you for the time being.

I think half the trouble is that people who haven't had much to do with a given technology often fear it's complexity. Like old people and digital cameras ("Do I get a film with that?!").

Building a website is easy, and a couple of hours sensible research one evening can help. If you can appreciate what HTML is (you don't need to know the specifics of the source code), how a page works and how it is viewed, then that's a good starting point.

If you have Frontpage, try drawing a page up (as easy as creating a Word document). Then click the source/code tab at the bottom and see what is being produced behind the scenes. Before long you'll pick up the necessary skills and you'll be able to take on more ambitious projects.

Personally I've always had a thirst for knowledge, new skills, techniques and projects. Which is why from starting with really badly thought out and horrendous-looking websites when I was at school I've now got one that's reasonably good (from a users point of view, not a CSS/W3C validators point of view).

I have a constant self-assessment loop where I look at things I do and think 'How does that appear to other people?'. True, you should do things 100% for your own satisfaction, but it pays to be critical of yourself and to see what else is going on around you. This keeps the bar high and means that you'll always be improving and working to progressively higher standards.

Don't forget, nobody is born with the ability to create websites. If you can overcome the fear and jump in like Kev said then before long you'll pick up the basics. The best thing is that these days it's cheaper and easier than ever.

[petecarr]

I'm with you Gerard I don't understand it at all and thats why I started this thread. I understand it even less now 4 pages later my head hurts::eek:

Its easy. Sign up with Wordpress.com (http://www.wordpress.com) and read their guides / FAQ's. You'll have a nice looking site within minutes and its free. You could even try Google Pages (http://pages.google.com). Its also free and easy to use.