View Full Version : Slavery Streets
A CLUTCH of Liverpool's most famous street names could disappear from the map because of their association with the Slave Trade, the Daily Post can reveal.
City centre Tarleton Street, Manesty's Lane and Clarence Street would be removed from all records to be replaced by names linked to the abolition of slavery such as William Roscoe and William Wilberforce.
The name of Exchange Flags, where slave dealing took place, and Rodney Street - named after Admiral Lord Rodney, a staunch supporter of the slave trade - could also be relegated to the history books.
Cllr Barbara Mace, who is promoting the scheme, also wants a street to be named after race murder victim Anthony Walker.
Her proposal is to be put before a meeting of the city council on Wednesday.
Last night, Cllr Mace insisted she was not trying to re-write history. She said: "I believe that this small gesture in 2007 will mean a great deal to many people."
Cllr Mace, who works in the Foundation for Citizenship at Liverpool John Moores University, says her proposal is aimed at marking the bicentenary in 2007, Liverpool's 800th birthday year, of the abolition of the slave trade.
The Woolton councillor has told colleagues: "I want the city council to resolve that all streets, squares and public places named after those involved in promoting or profiteering from the slave trade be renamed.
"I also want the council to mark the bicentenary by substituting new names celebrating those who opposed slavery and who represent diversity and the contemporary challenge of racial harmony."
Her plan was welcomed by Labour leader Cllr Joe Anderson, who says Exchange Flags could be re-named Independent Square.
He said: "You could say there is an argument for keeping things, warts and all, but normally streets are named as an accolade for people who deserve to be remembered for good deeds. There is nothing good about slavery."
Cllr Mace wants experts at the Merseyside Maritime Museum to give advice on the scheme to find new names.
She has discussed her move with city council leader Cllr Warren Bradley who endorses her decision to put the proposal up for debate by the full city council.
Cllr Mace said: "As part of our Roscoe Lectures at the foundation, we are organising events linked to the 200th anniversary of the abolition of the Slave Trade.
"I realised that many of our streets of today are linked to names or activities that involved slavery. One of the key names is Manesty's Lane, named after the owner of a fleet of slave ships.
"Grosvenor is carrying out its Paradise Street project and is re-configuring the streets around Hanover Street, including Manesty's Lane. I felt it would be a good opportunity to change the name.
"These names will still live on and I am not trying to sweep our past under the carpet. I do not know whether there will be any opposition, or if people will generally agree that this is a small gesture worth making.
"I can imagine there will be opposition to changing well-known names such as Rodney Street and Exchange Flags, but they also have an association with the Slave Trade.
"A lot of deals and transactions involving slave ships were carried out in Exchange Flags and Rodney Street is named after Admiral Lord Rodney."
The proposal sparked mixed reactions across the city last night.
Dr Emlyn Williams, chairman of the Rodney Street Association, said: "I'm totally opposed to this because it's a form of whitewashing history."
But Gloria Hyatt, founder member of the Afro-Carribean-led Merseyside Campaign Against Racist Terrorism, welcomed the idea.
She said: "I think we should change the street names and replace them with names that celebrate successful black people."
larryneild@dailypost.co.uk (larryneild@dailypost.co.uk)
City's merchants became rich from slave trade profits
LIVERPOOL'S links with the slave trade is well documented at the Merseyside Maritime Museum.
The city was a major slaving port and its ships and merchants dominated the transatlantic slave trade in the second half of the 18th century. The town and its inhabitants derived great civic and personal wealth from the trade which laid the foundations for the port's future growth.
Probably three-quarters of all European slaving ships at this period left from Liverpool. Overall, Liverpool ships transported half of the 3m Africans carried across the Atlantic by British slavers.
Nearly all the principal merchants and citizens of Liverpool, including many of the mayors, were involved. Thomas Golightly (1732-1821), who was first elected to the Town Council in 1770 and became Mayor in 1772-3, is just one example. Several of the town's MPs invested in the trade and spoke strongly in its favour in Parliament.
James Penny, a slave trader, was presented with a magnificent silver epergne in 1792 for speaking in favour of the slave trade to a parliamentary committee.
The last British slaver, the Kitty's Amelia, left Liverpool under Captain Hugh Crow in July 1807 - the year the British Parliament abolished the trade.
The most prominent abolitionists, Thomas Clarkson and William Wilberforce led the British parliamentary campaign to abolish the slave trade and slavery.
In Liverpool, William Roscoe was one of the best known abolitionists. He wrote poetry and pamphlets in favour of abolition. Opinion in Liverpool was generally pro-slavery and like other abolitionists, Roscoe tended to work behind the scenes rather than openly declaring his views.
Have your say...............
bazzacat
07-07-2006, 11:25 AM
Pure garbage. Why try to deny history? It puts me in mind of when a long established pub changes owners, who give it a new, flavour of the month name. You would have thought the councillors would have something better to do that debate this kind of nonsense.
This proposal is worrying. I wonder what EH would have to say. Does PC-ness rewrite our history books then? Slavery is nowt to be proud of, we are all agreed on that.
Lets rename them after famous Liverpudlians.
Paul D
07-07-2006, 12:49 PM
I remember watching this programme about the Ivory Coast and what they do there is kidnap the kids at a very young age and take them in the middle of nowhere and make them pick cocoa for chocolate.If they try to escape they were tortured beaten or even killed and they estimated over 70% of the world's chocolate comes from this type of slavery,maybe we should be looking at this type of slavery that still exists instead of harping on about the past,maybe she should know this next time she settles down for a nice cup of tea and a choccy biscuit in front of a nice cozzy fire.One lad who had escaped was asked about what he thought about people who ate chocolate in wealthy countries and his reply was "you are eating my flesh" this is what we should be concerned about.:disgust:
bazzacat
07-07-2006, 12:52 PM
You have just given me the impetus to give up chocolate- why isnt this kind of thing common knowledge?
Paul D
07-07-2006, 12:55 PM
You have just given me the impetus to give up chocolate- why isnt this kind of thing common knowledge?
It's because big companies make huge profits from chocolate and profit comes before morality I'm afraid.
Howie
07-08-2006, 11:22 PM
Penny Lane under threat
Publisher: Keith Hall
Published: 08/07/2006 - 15:09:19 PM
http://www.24dash.com/_images/news/7879/m_Penny_Lane.jpg
Hello...Goodbye
Penny Lane?
A City Council meeting in Liverpool this Wednesday could opt to wipe Penny Lane - the street made famous by the Beatles' song - off the face of the earth because of its associations with the slave trade.
Councillors in Liverpool are considering plans to rename all streets named after people linked to slavery.
However, it appears the city's leaders were unaware that such a decision would mean losing one of its most famous and most photographed streets.
Penny Lane is thought to have been named after 18th century slave ship owner James Penny, who made his fortune in the industry.
The slave trader was presented with a silver table in 1792 for speaking out against the abolition of slavery to a parliamentary committee.
The plan to re-name the city's "slavery" streets has been put forward by local councillor Barbara Mace.
One of the suggestions includes renaming one of the streets in honour of black teenager Anthony Walker, who was murdered in a racist attack in Liverpool last year.
Originally, Cllr Mace called for "all streets, squares and public places named after those who were involved in promoting or profiteering from the slave trade" to be renamed.
But the councillor today distanced herself from the original proposals, which could have seen Penny Lane scrapped.
She said: "I wasn't aware that Penny Lane was named after someone involved in the slave trade.
"However, I am not suggesting that all streets in the city associated with slavery should be renamed.
"If that was the case I think most of the city would be affected.
"My proposal is to rename several of the streets in the city centre which are named after the more notorious slave traders and replace them with the names of people who have done something positive."
The proposal will be considered by the city council at a meeting on Wednesday evening.
Liverpool was a major slaving port dominating the transatlantic slave trade in the second half of the 18th century.
The town and its inhabitants derived great wealth from the trade.
Eric Lynch, an expert on Liverpool's slave trade, said: "Penny Lane is thought to have been named after James Penny, one of the slave ship owners.
"People may be surprised but I completely disagree with the idea that any street names should be changed.
"If you change the names then it is like it never happened, there is no proof and people will forget.
"You cannot and should not change history, however disagreeable it is."
Copyright - Press Association 2006
Source: 24dash.com (http://www.24dash.com/content/news/viewNews.php?navID=2&newsID=7879)
Street name changes are ill thought out.. Why not educate the citizens and 'tourists' of the history and of the origins..
Don't whitewash it ... :(
Seriously - wtf is going on here?!!!!
Seriously - wtf is going on here?!!!!
Exactly!!!
Howie
07-08-2006, 11:35 PM
Barbara Mace is the Manager of the Foundation for Citizenship at Liverpool John Moores University whose Director is Professor the Lord Alton of Liverpool. :slywink:
Barbara Mace is the Manager of the Foundation for Citizenship at Liverpool John Moores University whose Director is Professor the Lord Alton of Liverpool. :slywink:
So she is on her crusade to justify her job then
Barbara Mace is the Manager of the Foundation for Citizenship at Liverpool John Moores University whose Director is Professor the Lord Alton of Liverpool. :slywink:
Hey Howie, remember Mr Cisse who played for the 'pool ?
He's also a Lord :D
Good article by the way ;)
gerrydoyle
07-09-2006, 12:23 AM
What's going on is pretty obvious, this is a completely pointless exercise designed to provoke a completely pointless row to divert attention from the total balls up they've made of the Robyn Archer situation.
Liverpool has historic links to the slave trade - something it has in common with many other British port. As someone said earlier an apology was made, airbrushing history is ridiculous let's move on.
Howie
07-09-2006, 03:18 PM
Beatles save Penny Lane
http://musicnews.virgin.net/Images/BeatlesMOB1.jpg
Liverpool's world famous Penny Lane is to escape a name change - because of the famous Beatles song in its honour.
Liverpool council have undertaken plans to rename several of the cities streets that are associated with its past as a slave trading post.
Penny Lane came under scrutiny because it is named after James Penny, an 18th century slave ship owner.
However, council officials have now confirmed that the street will retain its name because of its connection with the Beatles and its position as a famous tourist attraction.
Speaking on behalf of Liverpool Council, Barbara Mace remarked: "I don't think anyone would seriously consider renaming Penny Lane. My proposal is to rename several of the streets and to replace them with the names of people who have done something positive."
Source: Virgin.net (http://musicnews.virgin.net/Virgin/Lifestyle/Music/virginMusicNewsDetail/0,13556,1324107_music,00.html)
She slipped up missing that one didnt she?
Howie
07-09-2006, 03:32 PM
Not half! :badgrin:
Sloyne
07-09-2006, 04:53 PM
So does that mean that Manesty and his ilk didn't exist or their deeds were never done? What a load of crap. These people (councilors) are making Liverpool the laughing stock of the world.
Tomo-CIL
07-09-2006, 05:18 PM
Sloyne these councillors are all rubbish. I would neva emply any of them. Clueless springs to mind wheneva I see them in the paper
So Wednesday evening is when it gets looked at by Liverpool City Council.
If you change the names then it is like it never happened, there is no proof and people will forget. You cannot and should not change history, however disagreeable it is.
I hope they laugh it out of the building. New build streets would be more appropriate for these schemes.
julia
07-09-2006, 07:14 PM
This city has so many problems, I can't believe they've employed one whole person to work on renaming streets.
And what about all the problems caused by the renaming of streets? Postal deliveries, people with old maps trying to find the street, tourists, etc. Eventually, we all wind up having to make a trip to the fourth floor of the Central Library just to find out where a street used to be.
I agree: If someone is deserving of a street name, give them one of the newly built streets. Can't believe this is even being proposed as a serious idea. :020:
The council seem intent on ruining our city, why?
Scousemouse
07-09-2006, 08:07 PM
Only Fools and ...Liverpool City Council! What next? Nelson Mandela Towers? OMG!
It makes no difference what they change 'em to, they'll still be known by their original names to the people of Liverpool.
Howie
07-09-2006, 08:14 PM
It makes no difference what they change 'em to, they'll still be known by their original names to the people of Liverpool.
You'll be telling me next that the people of Liverpool still refer to Liverpool John Moores University as Liverpool Poly. :rolleyes: I do and I work there! :D
lindylou
07-09-2006, 11:40 PM
I still call Stockbridge Village Cantril Farm :rolleyes: :)
Howie
07-10-2006, 12:19 AM
...and Minster Court, Myrtle Gardens. :)
...and Minster Court, Myrtle Gardens. :)
My dad used to live in Myrtle Gardens when he was a kid.
THE threat to Liverpool's famous street names such as Penny Lane and Rodney Street could be over.
Last night, council leader Warren Bradley said he was against the idea of wiping names with links to the slave trade from the map.
And it emerged that Cllr Barbara Mace is planning to amend her proposals to replace the names of slave traders with those of people involved in the abolition of slavery.
Cllr Bradley told the Post last night: "You can't rewrite history or pretend things never happened and I don't agree with the idea.
"Cllr Mace spoke to me about her proposals before she submitted the motion and I told her that I didn't agree and would be voting against it.
"But, if she feels so strongly about the issue, then she was right to pursue it."
Under the scheme, city centre Tarleton Street, Manesty's Lane and Clarence Street would all be removed from the records.
The name of Exchange Flags, where slave dealing took place, and Rodney Street, named after Admiral Lord Rodney, a staunch supporter of the slave trade could also be relegated to history books.
But Liverpool's most famous street name Penny Lane, which was immortalised by the Beatles, would also be under threat because it was named after 18th century slave trader James Penny.
At the time, he was presented with a silver table setting by Liverpool's political leaders for his support for the slave trade, on which Liverpool's fortunes depended.
The names would be replaced by anti-slavery figureheads such as William Roscoe and William Wilberforce, if the motion is approved.
Cllr Mace was also calling for a street to be named after black teenager Anthony Walker.
Anti-racism campaigners welcomed the plans but the Rodney Street Association said it was a form of white-washing history.
Cllr Mace, who submitted the proposals to mark the bicentenary in 2007 of the abolition of the slave trade, said she plans to amend her motion ahead of this week's council meeting.
She said: "I was never intending to rewrite history. I just thought with the amount of regeneration going on in the city centre at the moment, it is a good opportunity."
jessicashaughnessy@dailypost.co.uk
Tomo-CIL
07-10-2006, 10:36 AM
they're all goin mad now - doesn't Penny Lane bring in loads of tourists??? Isn't that what the council abuse to the max selling the city to tourists??? Seems to be the main thing they all bang on about - they're cutting their noses off to spite they're faces.
It's like they're doin they're upmost to f*cuk the place up.
Makes me sick
Dave Ingham
07-10-2006, 10:42 AM
Its just one bonkers councillor, who is living on a different planet to the rest of us. Poor old Warren must be groaning at having such dim wits in his group.
Mr Warren seems to have his head screwed on. I just hope these plans come to nothing.
Sloyne
07-10-2006, 03:29 PM
My dad used to live in Myrtle Gardens when he was a kid.I probably know him.
Well the council member has withdrawn her proposal in favour of an added plaque to the streetname sign, informing the citizen how the street name originated.......... Good news all round eh?
Boss news, now where does she go from here? A few seminars, conferences etc?
Boss news, now where does she go from here? A few seminars, conferences etc?
:D ..... The train home ? ;)
...hope it pours down so she can look sorry for herself as she gazes out of the train window passing by Edge Hill sidings.
...hope it pours down so she can look sorry for herself as she gazes out of the train window passing by Edge Hill sidings.
Ahh hey Kev,now you are just being vindictive :D :Colorz_Grey_PDT_16:
Scouse-proud ......... Will never be divided ;)
:unibrow:
Ahh hey Kev,now you are just being vindictive :D :Colorz_Grey_PDT_16:
Scouse-proud ......... Will never be divided ;)
:unibrow:
band of brothers
gerrydoyle
07-10-2006, 11:22 PM
Mr Warren seems to have his head screwed on. I just hope these plans come to nothing.
" She has discussed her move with city council leader Cllr Warren Bradley who endorses her decision to put the proposal up for debate by the full city council."
Echo 7/7/06
Head screwed on? ROTFL
No just waiting to see which way the wind was blowing before 'showing a lead'. Of course the plan came to nothing - it was a City Council proposal. :rolleyes:
I can see it now when the Beatles fans protest at messing about with penny lane.
Idea Dropped (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/5168952.stm) - BBC Liverpool
wallasey
07-15-2006, 02:46 AM
Glad it's been dropped. They were going to change Exchange Flags into Idepedance Square! How pathetic!
Can you imagine the confusion directing people to "Wilberforce Lane" (formerly Penny Lane).
"Err, there was a Penny Lane, but it got changed mate!"
But how pathetic! I mean really! And if anyone has noticed, we actually already have a Roscoe Street in the City, it's below Rodney Street. Strange that isn't it!
Terry
07-15-2006, 03:30 AM
Well it was a silly idea in the first place,(who on earth thinks these ideas up).Whilst The Slave Trade was awful to say the least,so were many other grizzly things at that time.But we cannot be held responsible for what our fathers or forefathers did.How long must we be made to feel guilty for!.
I wish i had half the problems these Councillors seem to have if this is all they have to worry about.
Have we really got to the stage where there is nothing of major importance for local Councils to do than to allow some dimwit to change the name of some streets because of something that happened way before our time.
Id love to meet these people who are so offended.They are living in another world they really are,are they really so AFFECTED by this.
Perhaps the council will consider offering councelling (at Tax Payers expence)to those affected by this decision.
ChrisGeorge
11-07-2006, 08:21 PM
Hi Kevin
My impression of this proposal is that it was knocked on the head when it was realised that Penny
Lane would have to be renamed. Was that your impression or was there more to the reason why the proposal was rejected?
Chris
Hi Kevin
My
impression of this proposal is that it was knocked on the head when it was realised that Penny Lane would have to be renamed.
That seemed to have
put the plans in the dustbin.
PhilipG
11-07-2006, 09:14 PM
I wonder how many of the inhabitants of Liverpool could name even one Liverpool slave
trader before this barmy idea was suggested?
I know a little about Local History, but have to put my hand up and say I couldn't have named even one.
george roberts
11-20-2006, 04:39 PM
Pure garbage. Why try to deny history? It puts me in mind of when a long established pub changes owners, who give it a new, flavour of the month name. You would have thought the councillors would have something better to do that debate this kind of nonsense.
I wonder if the same line of thinking, (delete it demolish it and all that jazz) brought the original cavern crashing down?
Liverpool can't hide its shame by changing street names!
When and if she acomplishes the changes, will she then propose a change for the name, 'Liverpool'. Where will it all end?
ChrisGeorge
11-27-2006, 05:31 PM
Kev-I have a theory and I want to bounce it about to see how it measures up to reality.
My theory is that the original cavern club premises was, at some point in it's history. 'A slave hold'.
Further to that, I think that the old building was connected in some way or other to the waterfront, 'underground'.
The topography between that building in mathew street, down to, what is now the museum of slavery, lends a little credence to that notion!
Do you have a thought on that?
Hello George
Your theory is highly unlikely since as we have said here many times, few slaves actually reached Liverpool, the purpose of the triangular trade route being expressly to take them to the Americas where they would work on the plantations. A better theory, if you are going to pick the Cavern, might be that rock and roll enslaved youngsters of the Sixties. . . :celb (23):
Chris
Penny Lane
Penny Lane is a street famous worldwide thanks to The Beatles 1967 hit, but the south Liverpool street owes its name to an outspoken Liverpool slave ship owner and staunch anti-abolitionist.
James Penny was a Liverpool merchant who made his money from the transportation of slaves.
Penny was one of several traders from Liverpool who spoke in favour of the slave trade at a parliamentary committee.
Penny told the committee that he had invested in eleven voyages of ships carrying slaves from Africa to the West Indies. His ships were between 200-300 tons and usually carried between 500 to 600 slaves in a single voyage. Of these approximately two thirds of the slaves were male and one third female.
'An advantageous trade'
The Lords Committee of Council was set up in February 1788 to investigate the slave trade.
In evidence James Penny voiced his opinion that the trade was humane “…that he found himself impelled, both by humanity and interest, to pay every possible attention both to the preservation of the crew and the slaves.
"Great improvements have been made at Liverpool within these twenty years in the construction of the ships." - James Penny in 1788
“The slaves here will sleep better than the gentlemen do on shore.”
The slave trader was presented with a silver table in 1792 for speaking out against the abolition of slavery.
Liverpool traders were anxious to preserve the slave trade which had made large profits for many of them and was the source of much of the city’s wealth.
The parliamentary minutes record James Penny’s conviction that ending the trade would cause great harm to Liverpool, “…Mr Penny being asked, whether he conceives this trade to be a profitable one in general to the Merchant?
“Replied, he thinks it, upon the whole, an advantageous trade; and added, he would have to beg leave to observe, that should this trade be abolished, it would not only greatly affect the commercial interest, but also the landed property of the County of Lancaster and more particularly, the Town of Liverpool; whose fall, in that case, would be as rapid as its rise has been astonishing.”
James Penny was insistent that the slave trade should be allowed to continue “…the Slave Ships at Liverpool are built on purpose for this trade, and are accommodated with air ports and gratings for the purpose of keeping the slaves cool.
“Great improvements have been made at Liverpool within these twenty years in the construction of the ships. The space between the decks is sufficiently large to contain the number of negroes above-mentioned and is plained, very smooth and painted.”
source (http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/content/articles/2007/02/15/abolition_penny_lane_feature.shtml)...
taffy
03-26-2007, 05:32 PM
Penny Lane
Penny Lane is a street famous worldwide thanks to The Beatles 1967 hit, but the south Liverpool street owes its name to an outspoken Liverpool slave ship owner and staunch anti-abolitionist.
James Penny was a Liverpool merchant who made his money from the transportation of slaves.
I've never actually seen any evidence that this street was named after James Penny. Like Smithdown Rd & Mossley Hill Rd, Penny Lane is a very ancient highway whose name is likely to reflect its antiquity. I have to say I'd be surprised if this story about its naming were true but I'm happy to be corrected if someone has a source,
ChrisGeorge
03-26-2007, 05:41 PM
I've never actually seen any evidence that this street was named after James Penny. Like Smithdown Rd & Mossley Hill Rd, Penny Lane is a very ancient highway whose name is likely to reflect its antiquity. I have to say I'd be surprised if this story about its naming were true but I'm happy to be corrected if someone has a source,
Hi Taffy
Could we find out if James Penny had any connection to the area around Penny Lane? Possibly he owned property in the area. If he didn't and it is determined that he didn't have a connection with the area, I would agree that it might be unlikely that Penny Lane is named after him.
Chris
I've never actually seen any evidence that this street was named after James Penny. Like Smithdown Rd & Mossley Hill Rd, Penny Lane is a very ancient highway whose name is likely to reflect its antiquity. I have to say I'd be surprised if this story about its naming were true but I'm happy to be corrected if someone has a source,
I have to say when I was doing research for my book I found nothing on Penny Lane, yet there were many sources of information on other streets linked to slave traders (and abolitionists such as Binns and Rathbone). I like you guessed it was something to do with older times than the slave trade as most lanes were in existence prior to the mid 1700s,but as I found no clear indications either way left it out altogether.
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