Edge Hill and Crown Street

[Kev]

Moorish Arch Edge Hill - Is there any evidence of this historic arch still left? It was involved in one of Liverpool's most historical occasions - The opening of the Liverpool/ Manchester railway.

Images courtesy of Liverpool City Library and the Records Office

[MarkA]

Not much it would seem...

http://www.colinfparsons.btinternet.co.uk/twinp/colhome/edgehill/edgehill.htm

[Kev]

:PDT_Xtremez_12:, imagine restoring that! Lets get a campaign going! Shame, I'd love to have a trip down there.

[theninesisters]

It's great down there, the original steps are the scariest things to walk down as most of em are gone!

Here's one of Charles Hand and friends taking the tour in 1926 just before they headed in to the Williamson Tunnels.

Source - Liverpool Central Library

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Kev and Jona

Very interesting images and information, lads. My inclination would be to believe that the Moorish arch had to be demolished because it was too narrow to allow the later larger trains to pass through. Since it seems to have been almost completely removed and eradicated except for its foundations that would seem to be the case.

Chris

[MarkA]

From http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/sites/l/liverpool_edge_hill_cutting/index3.shtml

"In the 1860's in order to facilitate a new track alignment the Edge Hill cutting was widened forcing the demolition of the Moorish Arch."

[snappel]

That area should be treated as a heritage site. The trouble is that when people tried to clear it out to preserve it they just got shelled from above by local kids... A big shame - that's a really historic cutting.

[Kev]

That area should be treated as a heritage site. The trouble is that when people tried to clear it out to preserve it they just got shelled from above by local kids... A big shame - that's a really historic cutting.

I agree Snappel - shame isn't it?

@Chris, looking at how thin the original structure was, that seems the likely explanation for widening and knocking it down.

[Max]

Thanks for the links, I was wondering what this was and assumed It was a water tower.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/180/431762766_66d98d40fa_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/maxmolyneux/431762766/)

[Kev]

...........

[Max]

It's great down there, the original steps are the scariest things to walk down as most of em are gone!

Here's one of Charles Hand and friends taking the tour in 1926 just before they headed in to the Williamson Tunnels.

Source - Liverpool Central Library


Have you gone down the cutting?

I think trains go through It still I remember going through It I think when getting the train back to Lime Street once.

[Ged]

Max, there's loads of those ventilation chimneys if you look for them relating to Wapping and Waterloo tunnels from the dock road to Edge Hill.

You can see some at Cornwallis Street, Crown Street, in front of the Anglican cathedral, Norton street (very bare that one)

[Max]

The one I took Is the Crown Street one I think.

[Kev]

Where about are the remains of this arch? On what road can they be reached?

[MarkA]

From what I can gather, the Moorish Arch was on the other side of Edge Hill station from the Crown Street tunnel.

[Scanner]

If you go to the Chatsworth Street Housing estate you can look down through railings and see where the arch was. I grew up in Myrtle Gardens on Crown Street and used to play in the old railway yards. The steps have all but disappeared. There is no plaque there or anything saying how important this railway was and thats a huge shame.

[theninesisters]

Been :PDT11

1909

1910

1911

1912

1913

1914

1915

1916

[Kev]

My word, what a shame to see that in the state its in. Great pics Jona, where is the little hole you found, I'm gonna go.

[Scanner]

Wow great pics Jona they take take me back

[Kev]

where is the little hole you found, I'm gonna go.

I should have read scanners post above sorry.

[theninesisters]

My word, what a shame to see that in the state its in. Great pics Jona, where is the little hole you found, I'm gonna go.

You're asking where my hole is? :eek: :)

Exactly where Scanner says it is...but we're going back a good few years so I can't give you precise directions now hehe

Scanner - best place to get there these days? Has it changed?

[Kev]

I'm gonna go on a hunt tomorrow.

[Scanner]

Thats ok Kev

[Kev]

From http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/sites/l/liverpool_edge_hill_cutting/index3.shtml

"In the 1860's in order to facilitate a new track alignment the Edge Hill cutting was widened forcing the demolition of the Moorish Arch."

Mark, this link is excellent and contains many images from trackside including inside some of the tunnels, cheers.

[scouserdave]

Don't have any info' to offer, apart from a couple of interesting pics of the arch. I found them while doing a search on my of my favourite(s) website (http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?txtkeys1=Moorish+Arch)

http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/pr/985893605/Science_&_Society_Picture_Library_10289076.jpg

http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/pr/985893605/Science_&_Society_Picture_Library_10288261.jpg

[Kev]

Brilliant Dave

[Scanner]

The only place to view the site now, is go to tunnel Road and you will see a church ( youth club called the Action nowadays) there are railings there which you can look down at the site. A good site to go see one of the tunnels is Crown Street itself. There is a ventilation funnel (Max showed a picture of it on this thread) go up the hill and you will come to a street called Queensland Street cross it, and there is a cut out in the hill there is a tunnel (that leads to were the arch was). Great place to take some pics

[Kev]

Scanner, on the other side, where Max snapped the vent tunnel is the start of the line, there are buffers there and you can get to it from the park, or am I thinking of another tunnel?

[theninesisters]

You're right Kev. If you head down Overbury Street, this actually crosses over the original Crown Street tunnel. Have a nose at www.flashearth.com for Overbury Street (Edge Hill) and you'll find the line.

[Kev]

Great, Cheers Jona: Are the remains at location 1 or location 2 on the map?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/168/443517715_95fe500e0b_o.jpg
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/443514751/)

[theninesisters]

Great, Cheers Jona: Are the remains at location 1 or location 2 on the map?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/168/443517715_95fe500e0b_o.jpg
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/443514751/)

From what I can remember Kev, no 2. I say that because the grey flats were caught in one of the photo's and these used to stand on Tunnel road. Hope that helps! I'll be going back to update my pics when I get my new camera!!

[marky]

Here's a link to a railway arch around that area.
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/64494

[Kev]

^^That's the Oberbury Street end^^ Thanks for the pic.

[goldenface]

Thought you might like to have a look at this guy's model (Michael Delamar) of the mentioned cutting and coal yard which he has recreated as it was a few decades ago.

Its a very interesting project for anyone who lived in the aread and should be great to look at as he has even incorporated a model of the South East corner of Myrtle Gardens.

There are plenty of photos of the original and also of the model in construction.

http://michael-delamar.fotoblog.co.uk/

I think the model will be exhibited in early May.

[theninesisters]

Thought you might like to have a look at this guy's model (Michael Delamar) of the mentioned cutting and coal yard which he has recreated as it was a few decades ago.

Its a very interesting project for anyone who lived in the aread and should be great to look at as he has even incorporated a model of the South East corner of Myrtle Gardens.

There are plenty of photos of the original and also of the model in construction.

http://michael-delamar.fotoblog.co.uk/

I think the model will be exhibited in early May.


GOLD STAR! :PDT11 Some cracking pictures there!

[goldenface]

Thanks.

He seems to have really done his homework for this, rooting out pictures I certainly hadn't seen before. Great work!

[Kev]

^^Yep, brilliant pics there^^ thanks :)

[Kev]

Do u know michael delamar?

[goldenface]

No not personally, I just contacted him via his website.

He told me he will be exhibiting his model at, I think, Archibishop Blanch school early may.

Don't hesitate if you want to contact him regarding the pictures on his site as they're very interesting.

[Kev]

Have u got an email address for him?

[goldenface]

@Kev

I deleted it by accident but I have sent him another message via his site. As soon as he replies I'll pm you.

[oritelad]

its april 2007 anyone please do they know how to get down to the arch? i dont think you can use them old steps anymore i tryed the other day but couldnt find away and i got sum strange looks of people cause i kept jumping up at walls lol

[goldenface]

its april 2007 anyone please do they know how to get down to the arch? i dont think you can use them old steps anymore i tryed the other day but couldnt find away and i got sum strange looks of people cause i kept jumping up at walls lol

Ha Ha Ha.

I don't think you can access it from 'over the walls'.

From what I can remember there was a gated access above the Moorish Arch but it is very dangerous to try and reach rail level by descending these stairs; half of them are non-existent and there is not much to see at all from above.

The best way to access the site officially(!) is from Edge Hill Railway station on Tunnel Road but I doubt you would be bothered to get the permission and a guide to take you. (You have to hold Rail Track Safety Card in order to trespass on the railway).

I would have liked to have seen Edge Hill Station refurbished and the Moorish Arch linked to it as a tourist attraction with guided tours - maybe a working steam winding engine, the ones used to haul the trains back up the Wapping Tunnel etc. The whole site is of great historical interest but at the moment its location would make it difficult to bring to life; I read somewhere that there are murmurings of this actually happening as Edge Hill Station could do with sprucing up a bit.

We also need to remember that freight trains do still use the remaining lines down there, (from what I can remember), for the time being, to reverse and head for the Seaforth Docks via the Bootle Branch.

[mike delamar]

elo there

first post,

my ears where burning lol

yeah as has been said, myself and another more experienced model maker are currently making a model of the crown st area, workin flat out this month to get it ready for our club show in may,

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e90/michaeldelz/099.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e90/michaeldelz/075.jpg

any questions about the real or model fire away


few questions for you guys, anyone know what the half demolished building above the cutting is in the pic that was posted earlier?

anyone know when the tunnel and bridge area around the bottom of smithdown lane was filled up, landscaped and made into a park, (guessing mid 90s)

and when was the new school above the cutting built (60s??? )

cheers

mike

[Louis]

this is all incredibly interesting! thanks for the info!!

[Kev]

Hi Mike,

What a fantastic project you have going there, I'm becoming a bit of rail enthusiast at the mo, this Moorish Arch area being my main interest at the moment.

Blame my son who is mad on Thomas The Tank Engine. :)

Welcome Mike, I hope you can bring more excellent contributions to the site :PDT11

Kev

Ooop! Have you ever been on the site recently?

[snappel]

Excellent work Mike, it looks fantastic! Really good to visualise what it must have been like there. When is your show? Is it the one on the bank holiday at the Blanch school?

As far as getting to the Moorish Arch... as is said above, you probably won't get there from above. The only way is from either end of the cutting. To the west is the fenced off end that enters the park (to think I climbed over that when drunk one night, many years ago!!) and to the east is Edge Hill station.

I've been there several times to walk the disused railway tunnels, although the last time was about 3 years ago. Unfortunately if you get caught you're going to land yourself with a fine, and probably get arrested.

[PhilipG]

elo there

first post,

anyone know when the tunnel and bridge area around the bottom of smithdown lane was filled up, landscaped and made into a park, (guessing mid 90s)

cheers

mike

It's been landscaped more than once, I'd say.
I remember the vent was standing in a sort of park in the mid 1980s.

[Jericho]

It's been landscaped more than once, I'd say.
I remember the vent was standing in a sort of park in the mid 1980s.

I wonder if this is it? Taken from the subterranean britannica site


http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/

Click on Liverpool Crown Street.

[Kev]

Crown Street was the original western passenger terminus of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway the world's first railway to cater for passengers as one of its primary functions. It was also arguably the worlds first inter city railway.

:rolleyes: Shame its gone forever :rolleyes:

[goldenface]

elo there

first post,

my ears where burning lol

few questions for you guys, anyone know what the half demolished building above the cutting is in the pic that was posted earlier?

anyone know when the tunnel and bridge area around the bottom of smithdown lane was filled up, landscaped and made into a park, (guessing mid 90s)

and when was the new school above the cutting built (60s??? )

cheers

mike

:lol: I think you can blame me for you burny ears!

In answer to your first question, do ou mean the grey building?

From what I can remember the area was concreted over and landscaped early 90s. I think in the final years the it switched from a coal yard to scrap metal. I seem to remember peeping though the yard gates and seeing huge piles of scrap metal.

The school above the cutting is St Annes (my sisters went there) and I would say it was 60's too.

The model looks amazing by the way. :handclap:

[Kev]

From the Liverpool Model Railway Exhibition (http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?p=56198#post56198)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/226/484934065_289fd89949.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/484934065/)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/171/484899264_7d5364d467.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/484899264/)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/215/484933469_b50481c251.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/484933469/)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/218/484933411_834d042758.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/484933411/)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/177/484933345_3588e9253b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/484933345/)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/183/484933271_3e117f9acc.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/484933271/)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/182/484933053_cdc07f778d.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/484933053/)

[goldenface]

Ah that looked really good, I'm sorry I didn't go now. :( It'd be nice to see some pics though.

[mike delamar]

yeah it was a great weekend, good to meet the lads from here :)

some piccies

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e90/michaeldelz/110.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e90/michaeldelz/235336.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e90/michaeldelz/ghjkl-1.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e90/michaeldelz/entwistle002.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e90/michaeldelz/008-2.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e90/michaeldelz/023-1.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e90/michaeldelz/frontage.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e90/michaeldelz/053-1.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e90/michaeldelz/crownst8.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e90/michaeldelz/063.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e90/michaeldelz/031-1.jpg


mike

[Ged]

Great pics Mike. thanks for those Myrtle Gardens ones, i'll add them to my site like I said giving you the credit. I like those houses with the back wall demolished and the rubble in them. Good luck in Milton Keynes.

[lindylou]

Excellent :handclap: :handclap:

[steveb]

Really good, nice to see the old pic,s especialy the one with paddy,s
wigwam being built

[mike delamar]

thanks guys :)

ged i think this is the only other one ive got of myrtle gardens,


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e90/michaeldelz/crownstfromtunnel.jpg

from the small tunnel

all apart from the arial view are jim peden

cheers

mike

[Kev]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/193/496517098_7a41279d15.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/496517098/)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/195/496516898_51c4b5cde1.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/496516898/)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/193/496516684_34829240b1.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijob/496516684/)

[goldenface]

Great pics again Mike, sorry I missed it.

Have you considered taking some black & white pictures of the model? They can put a new perspective on it.

[chippie]

Bravo Mike:handclap:

[goldenface]

Courtesy of Science & Society (http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/index.asp?clientinfo=0&image=&txtkeys1=&btnshow.x=&btnshow=&lstpasteboards=)

[Liverpool Lad]

Hello all this is my first post so here goes

liverpool railways and thier tunnels

have done the waterloo and victoria, august this year.

Just done the dingle tunnel

though now its time to bring on the daddy of them all the wapping, the only thing is the two fences you have to get over in which to gain entry.

not only is it hard getting in to the old crown street station site (now a double skin 8ft steel fence)

but they have also decided to put another fence over the entrance to the tunnel itself

so what do you think, should i go for it ?

[DaisyChains]

Hello all this is my first post so here goes

liverpool railways and thier tunnels

have done the waterloo and victoria, august this year.

Just done the dingle tunnel

though now its time to bring on the daddy of them all the wapping, the only thing is the two fences you have to get over in which to gain entry.

not only is it hard getting in to the old crown street station site (now a double skin 8ft steel fence)

but they have also decided to put another fence over the entrance to the tunnel itself

so what do you think, should i go for it ?

Have you got any pics?
I have done Dingle tunnel myself.

Go for it! But be careful!

[Liverpool Lad]

Yeah i have got quite a few pics, will post them on here this weekend.

so has anyone been in to the wapping tunnel, in say the past 2 years ?

i could allways go under the fence :034: instead of over

[Waterways]

Yeah i have got quite a few pics, will post them on here this weekend.

so has anyone been in to the wapping tunnel, in say the past 2 years ?

i could allways go under the fence :034: instead of over

Contact Snappel by email who is on this forum
http://www.level-two.co.uk/report.php?locname=waterloo

[chippie]

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z280/desmondstreet/aconvoyarrivesinLiverpooldavidcobb1.jpg

My favourite painting in the Merseyside Maritime Museum is this one by David Cobb.

He has captured the mood of the port and the country I think in this painting. It,s quite moody and spooky

Oh and by the way a day out in this museum is free and is the best value for money in the whole country.

[chippie]

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z280/desmondstreet/awaitingthetidedavidcobb.jpg

Here,s another one of his paintings.