A great book by James Murphy - very well written and it transports you back in time as though you were there - very atmospheric.

There was a film made too. The man from the pru and a dramatisation with Geoffrey Yates in it as a copper.

It would appear from a Radio City programme I remember listening to that a Richard Gordon Parry was responsible for the murder but died in Wales just as they were about to interview him.

Vincent Burke does a good take on the case in his crimes dvd but leaves it unclosed, not even mentioning the Parry connection which I found disappointing.

I've read that book Ged, really enjoyable. Am I right in remembering that Murray concluded by saying Wallace was the murderer and had got the timing absolutely spot on, discrediting the evidence of a milk or paper boy by saying he could have misread the clock when saying what time he had seen Julia alive.

The man From the Pru was released on video in USA but doesnt appear to have been done so here.

Ste, I dunno what Murray said mate cos my book's by Murphy - I know, I know nit pickin' agen - soz ha ha.

Yeah, it was such a good book up to that last chapter, then he let me down by actually saying he thought it was Wallace but the thought of him in the nak doin' his arl girl then having to get a bath and dried when there was no evidence for this was too much for me to believe, especially with the way Parry acted that night in the garage with the bloodied glove and what he said to the young apprentice. Just goes to show you that the garage owner must've known all along but kept schtum just because Parry was a 'good customer'

Wallace was a stoic character and his calmness made him even more of a suspect, I mean who sits there calmly lighting a ciggie unless she's gonna be insured for a million and it's coming your way?

I've read that book Ged, really enjoyable. Am I right in remembering that Murray concluded by saying Wallace was the murderer and had got the timing absolutely spot on, discrediting the evidence of a milk or paper boy by saying he could have misread the clock when saying what time he had seen Julia alive.

The man From the Pru was released on video in USA but doesnt appear to have been done so here.

I remember watching it on TV, but whether it was called "The Man from the Pru" or whether it was a documentary, I can't remember.

Philip, you're no good in the witness box, you may be excused :doubt:

Philip, you're no good in the witness box, you may be excused :doubt:

:handclap:

Take a look at this guys.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097822/

a bit about the film.
I had never heard of it. Now I am desperate to see it!! grrr!

I saw it over here a few years ago, was pretty good, seemed well researched to put it in the right timeframe.
Would recomend it. :037:

Does anyone have a copy of Murphy's book, on the Julia Wallace, murder for sale? I would be interested in purchasing a copy. I check with Amazon on a regular basis but it show's 'unavailable'. Thanks in advance.

Does anyone have a copy of Murphy's book, on the Julia Wallace, murder for sale? I would be interested in purchasing a copy. I check with Amazon on a regular basis but it show's 'unavailable'. Thanks in advance.

Sloyne.Type this into Ebay.."MURDER CASEBOOK 25 JULIA / WILLIAM WALLACE"
Dont know if its what your after though

Sloyne.Type this into Ebay.."MURDER CASEBOOK 25 JULIA / WILLIAM WALLACE"
Dont know if its what your after thoughThanks Gerard but, no, that's not the one. The book I am after is 'Murder of Julia Wallace' by James Murphy. But, and again, thanks for your assistance.

Thanks Gerard but, no, that's not the one. The book I am after is 'Murder of Julia Wallace' by James Murphy. But, and again, thanks for your assistance.
Your welcome Sloyne.

Hi all

There has been quite a bit of discussion of the Julia Wallace murder case on Casebook: Jack the Ripper, including recently a photograph posted of the house, 29 Wolverton Street, and the back entry behind the house that William Wallace is thought to have used to catch the tram to the mythical Menlove Gardens East. Go to

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=30

Chris

There's an interesting Guardian article here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,1104739,00.html) which includes an interview with the current occupant of the house.

Hi all

There has been quite a bit of discussion of the Julia Wallace murder case on Casebook: Jack the Ripper, including recently a photograph posted of the house, 29 Wolverton Street, and the back entry behind the house that William Wallace is thought to have used to catch the tram to the mythical Menlove Gardens East. Go to

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=30

Chris


Thank you so much for the link Chris.

This case has intrigued me for years and I took a couple of hours reading all 25 pages last night, digesting and dissecting all the information.

Thank you so much for the link Chris.

This case has intrigued me for years and I took a couple of hours reading all 25 pages last night, digesting and dissecting all the information.

Thanks, Ged. The Wallace case is certainly known as a classic crime story for the reason that William Herbert Wallace's alibi seemed so strange and unlikely, although I do think there might have been an opportunity for Parry or someone else to have committed the crime.

Chris

Chris. With so few people involved (although another one or two - Marsden and Johnstone) have been thrown into the ring, it is truly a mystery, especially as there are a number of pro's and cons with all the suspects?

Hi Ged

William Herbert Wallace appears to have been a very odd character but I don't think it is by any means clear that he did do the murder.

Chris

There is a good post over on that site about someone who retraced Wallace's movements that fateful night. He says the poor bloke would have taken all night these days because public transport is so infrequent :)

I personally think it was Parry - though Tom Slemen throws next door neighbour Johnstone at the scene though this isn't totally new as P.C. Fred Williams first proposed the notion - I don't think Johnstone's grandson is too pleased with Slemen. Others think Parry may have lent Marsden his car to do it, though he was unknown to Julia so wouldn't have been let into the house.

Then there's the Anfield housebreaker who was rife at the time?????

Mystery and intrigue.

Hi Ged

I'm not sure there was any evidence of anything stolen in the house though was there?

Chris

Did anyone hear Tom Slemen last night on the Pete price show?
My son rang in to talk to Tom about the Wallace case.

What did Tom, Pete and your son discuss then LindyLou?

The Wallace case. :)

Hi Ged

I'm not sure there was any evidence of anything stolen in the house though was there?

Chris

According to William Wallace, some cash was taken from a jar.

Yes, his Pru takings were missing, but as he'd been ill the previous week, it wasn't as much as it might've been.

LindyLou, I know that much :) What bits of the case did they discuss, does your son have an opinion on 'Whodunnit' (remember that show) - did he give Tom Slemen's newish angle on it any credence?

Yes, his Pru takings were missing, but as he'd been ill the previous week, it wasn't as much as it might've been.

LindyLou, I know that much :) What bits of the case did they discuss, does your son have an opinion on 'Whodunnit' (remember that show) - did he give Tom Slemen's newish angle on it any credence?

Sorry Ged, I wasn't intending to be sarky :unibrow:

get ready for a lengthy post :

My son is only 13 and just getting interested in the case. I've always told him about it as I was brought up in Wolverton st, so my family were always interested. As kids we used to play right outside of no. 29, and run around the back entry behind the wallace house.
The famous phone box where he made the phone call - we used to pass it most days. There was always a phonebox located on that spot but in recent years has been removed.

Of course we grew up knowing about the murder and would tell scary tales about the blood on the walls of the front parlour (as it we used to call a front sitting room then). :)

The house remained unmodernised until recent years.
Throughout the 1960s when I was a kid it always looked old fashioned as you see it in the old photos. It wasn't brought up to date and refurbished until the latter years. Can't recall exactly when - but I do know that the house never changed for long enough - even when most of the other houses were brought up to date, no.29 stayed the same.
It was a bit disappointing really when it did get modernised - all the character of the house altered and the air of mystery taken away. ( I wish we'd taken more photos of our days in that street - and of the Wallace house as it was then - but you don't think at the time, and people didn't bother with cameras as much then).
Still, the house had to change eventually and things have to progress.

My grandmother told us that, when she was young, she spoke to Wallace on one occassion. She went to pay some insurance money at the house. Forget the details now. She said he was a bit odd and quite brusque in manner .. she always believed that he did the murder. We would always argue about it because I was never convinced ! :) Also, regarding one of the theories of Julia having an affair .. my grandmother maintained that Julia was the last type of person to be having an affair as Mrs Wallace was somewhat antequated and dowdy, a little eccentric, a very quiet and timid kind of lady.

I don't live in Wolverton street now, we left some years ago, but I still know some of my old neighbours who are still there.


ps,

the DVD 'Burke's Law' by Vincent Burke is ok, but I found it disappointing as so much detail was left out.

Great stuff LindyLou. There's a bloke who has posted some pics up of some of the areas covered in the case, in the link given by ChrisGeorge earlier. It seems most of themare still there in one guise or another - the newsagents, the post office is still a post office - 29 Wolverton street is still there etc as is the triangle of land where the phone box was. There has been mention of perhaps both of them having an affair, but it seems unlikely in both cases if their grey, stoic,understated manner is anything to go by. So many unanswered questions though and a case where legal history was made, possible 2nd only to Jack the ripper for mystery and intrigue and how fitting in a funny sort of way that Liverpool should be involved in both world famous cases.

That triangle of land you mention (opposite the LFC Supporters club - the former old Cabbage Hall cinema) - is known as the 'triangle' by local Anfielders. We always refer to the 'triangle'.

I have photos of when the triangle was a little gardens surrounded by hedges. There were seats in there and a couple of small flowerbeds.
It's how it would have looked in Wallace's day.
It was still like it during the early 60s and I can just about remember it.
It's just a flat area of grass now where the pigeons congregate. :)

:) :gossip:

Yes, that triangle of land. It was originally Rochester Road I believe. My mother was born in Clarendon Road 3 years after the murder, and was christened in Holy Trinity Church. My great-aunt had dealings with Wallace and she was convinced he was guilty - 'I always knew there was something about him. He always had cold hands':)
My grandfather regularly used to see Wallace as well and believed he was innocent. I have never been convinced of Wallace's guilt. The complete lack of bloodstaining on his person points strongly to his innocence I believe.

Yes, that triangle of land. It was originally Rochester Road I believe. My mother was born in Clarendon Road 3 years after the murder, and was christened in Holy Trinity Church. My great-aunt had dealings with Wallace and she was convinced he was guilty - 'I always knew there was something about him. He always had cold hands':)
My grandfather regularly used to see Wallace as well and believed he was innocent.

Hello Mark R.

Great to see you here. I believe you will know me from the Casebook: Jack the Ripper website. Contemporary views of people involved in famous cases are always interesting. I found George Skelly's The Cameo Conspiracy to be quite persuasive, although I have recently read Richard Whittington-Egan's assessment that the alleged gunman, George Kelly--whom he had met--was the "Little Caesar of Lime Street." It still doesn't mean of course that Kelly did the double murders of the manager and assistant manager at the Cameo Cinema in Wavertree on March 19, 1949 but RWE's characterization of Kelly gives one pause for thought.

Chris

Hi Chris

Great to hear from you again! Great site. I'll have to look out for RWE's assessment on the Cameo case. I'll be attending the mock Maybrick Trial at the Liverpool Cricket Club in May. Will you be there?

Mark

Hello Mark R. I tend to agree with practically all of what you say on the other site about WHW.

Hi Ged

I've never been totally convinced of Wallace's guilt. I know he acted in a (seemingly) suspicious manner on the evening of 20th January but I believe there are many points in favour of his innocence.

Hi Chris

Great to hear from you again! Great site. I'll have to look out for RWE's assessment on the Cameo case. I'll be attending the mock Maybrick Trial at the Liverpool Cricket Club in May. Will you be there?

Mark

Hi Mark

Yes I will be at the Liverpool Cricket Club in May for the Maybrick "Trial" -- couldn't resist returning to my home city for such an event, though I don't think Maybrick was the Ripper. I hope to meet you then, Mark.

Chris

Hi Chris,

I agree. I don't believe Maybrick was JTR. Look forward to seeing you in May!!

Mark

Mark, weren't you put off the trial by your last experience, wasn't it you waiting for the tour bus but it didn't arrive though they tried to say it did - not the same organisers is it?

The Maybrick Tour - yes. They offered us another date when we complained but we couldn't make it on that date. Don't know if it is the same organisers though...

Hi Ged

I don't know if you know but there are also archive pages on the Wallace Case on the Ripper Casebook site. There are 3 pages made up of 50 posts each. they can be found here:

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4927/16732.html

That's when I wrote under the name Mark Bloch!

Yes, that triangle of land. It was originally Rochester Road I believe. My mother was born in Clarendon Road 3 years after the murder, and was christened in Holy Trinity Church. My great-aunt had dealings with Wallace and she was convinced he was guilty - 'I always knew there was something about him. He always had cold hands':)
My grandfather regularly used to see Wallace as well and believed he was innocent. I have never been convinced of Wallace's guilt. The complete lack of bloodstaining on his person points strongly to his innocence I believe.

I was christened in Holy Trin :)

Yes, that part of Lower Breck was called Rochester. I wonder why they change names like that ?

Holy Trinity Breck rd. (Richmond Park to the left)

I wasn't going to post them as they are terrible pics with the top of the spire cut off ! :) .. but here they are anyway:

That triangle of land you mention (opposite the LFC Supporters club - the former old Cabbage Hall cinema) - is known as the 'triangle' by local Anfielders. We always refer to the 'triangle'.

I have photos of when the triangle was a little gardens surrounded by hedges. There were seats in there and a couple of small flowerbeds.
It's how it would have looked in Wallace's day.
It was still like it during the early 60s and I can just about remember it.
It's just a flat area of grass now where the pigeons congregate. :)

The 'triangle' .. a shadow of it's former self !!

absolutely brilliant thread everyone!

Lindy...you're info about growing up in that street was amazing! so interesting!
just found this...

http://www.geocities.com/tom_slemen/wallace.html

Thanks for the link. That old photo in there of 'our' street .. I've seen in books and web-sites. There's a kid playing in the distance and I wonder if it could have been me !! ha,ha. You never know !

The phonebox where Wallace made the call was by the 'triangle' (previous pic I posted). The phonebox used to be over by the side where the bus stop is - if you look close you'll see a bus shelter. The phonebox was originally more over towards the right. There was always a call box on that site and was only removed in recent years.

Wolverton st has always been a nice quiet road and has remained that way.
It's tucked away from any main roads, and as it is a cul-de-sac ( although at one time there used to be a small unpaved, unlit passage way at the bottom end leading off into Richmond Park ) only residents pass through it. There is very little passing traffic and no surrounding shops etc, therefore it's a peaceful little street.

Wish I still lived there. I live somewhere totally the opposite now - a main rd, hectic and noisy - no peace !! :sad:

Yes, security gates have now put paid to entering the street from the cul de sac end and the entryways.

Take a look at this guys.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097822/

a bit about the film.
I had never heard of it. Now I am desperate to see it!! grrr!

There was also a docu-drama shown in October 1975 called Who Killed Julia Wallace? I'll never forget seeing it! I was 9 at the time. My mother told me that it happened 'just up the road' from our house. We watched the programme and visited 29 Wolverton Street the very next night. Since then I have been hooked! It was a very good drama. They used the actual locations in Anfield and the cast were unknown.

There was also a docu-drama shown in October 1975 called Who Killed Julia Wallace? I'll never forget seeing it! I was 9 at the time. My mother told me that it happened 'just up the road' from our house. We watched the programme and visited 29 Wolverton Street the very next night. Since then I have been hooked! It was a very good drama. They used the actual locations in Anfield and the cast were unknown.

grrrrrr im jealous! would love to see it!

There was also the one made for t.v. featuring Geoffrey Hughes alias Corries Eddie Yates as a copper - it was in the late 90s I think. Carrie, get yourself the James Murphy book outta the book clearance centre, mind you it was about 2 years ago I got mine from there, very atmospheric though I don't agree with his outcome.

grrrrrr im jealous! would love to see it!

I emailed ITV last year to get them to reshow that thing. Never got a reply. Maybe a few of us should make a concerted effort to get them to air it again. Alternatively, I think their Archives department will happily provide a VHS/DVD of it for about £200 !!!

AP

The back entry of Wolverton st. Couldn't get in to take a closer shot as it is alleygated. I'll take one of the street next time I'm passing.

The Wallace house is on the right of the photo where the furthest bin is.
There is actually another narrow alley which cuts across the middle ( see in 2nd attachment.)
These alley gates are very restricting when it comes to taking photies. :rolleyes:

Wolverton st, how it looks today.

1st view looking up the street from Richmond Park.
2nd view looks down from the cul-de-sac end.

The back entry of Wolverton st. Couldn't get in to take a closer shot as it is alleygated. I'll take one of the street next time I'm passing.

The Wallace house is on the right of the photo where the furthest bin is.
There is actually another narrow alley which cuts across the middle ( see in 2nd attachment.)
These alley gates are very restricting when it comes to taking photies. :rolleyes:

Great pics, Lindy. Thanks! I was wondering about your mention of the back entries now being "alleygated." Is this now a general thing in Liverpool and other British cities? I can remember playing in the "jiggers" when I was a little boy -- we lived on Bromley Avenue near Greenbank Park for a while, and that's the specific location I remember from that time -- and later sneaking down a back entry from a girlfriend's in the Kensington area when I was a teenager. ;)

Chris

Yes, all the alleyways are gated in L'pool Not sure about elsewhere.

The trouble is that you can't take short cuts now. You have to go all around the world to get from A to B. :rolleyes: :)

A small price to pay though because it also means that housebreakers and muggers also can't take the shortcuts now nor use the cover of darkness or off street means to partake in their dusk activities and as such, burglaries have now decreased. There's also no bin bag dumping. It's a pain in the bladder for us chaps who are caught short though lol.

A small price to pay though because it also means that housebreakers and muggers also can't take the shortcuts now nor use the cover of darkness or off street means to partake in their dusk activities and as such, burglaries have now decreased. There's also no bin bag dumping. It's a pain in the bladder for us chaps who are caught short though lol.

There are a few alleys though that arent gated due to objections. In effect what the council did was illegal and if somebody objected, they couldnt go ahead. Its only recent legislation that has allowed for compulsory gating if the council and police can show its necessary.

There was also the one made for t.v. featuring Geoffrey Hughes alias Corries Eddie Yates as a copper - it was in the late 90s I think. Carrie, get yourself the James Murphy book outta the book clearance centre, mind you it was about 2 years ago I got mine from there, very atmospheric though I don't agree with his outcome.


Yes - that was The Man from the Pru. I believe it was made in 1989. The book clearance don't have any more copies as of James Murphy's book as far as I'm aware. I agree with you though Ged - it is a great book, but I don't agree with Murphy's verdict.


Re: Who Killed Julia Wallace
I actually wrote to Yorkshire TV (it was actually made by them) but did not recieve anything of note. Yes, I also wrote to the TV archive and the cost would come to over £250. I'm sure the programme was aired again in the early 80's.

Just remembered another Wallace documentary aired. Does anyone remember Bloody Murder? It was hosted by Corrie's Lee Boardman and appeared in 2004. There were some good episodes in the series, including The Wallace and Maybrick Cases. The Wallace episode centred around the probable outcome that it was RG Parry who committed the offence. I'm not really convinced of Parry's guilt though...

If the bloodied glove in the car is to be believed then I'd have to go with the RGP option as there could be no other explaination that he was in on it somewhere (even if he'd lent his car out)

I remember John McArdle (ex Brookside) doing a murder series which included a murder down by Pall Mall and a body being pushed in a wheelbarrow in a sack and being dumped in the canal was mentioned but can't remember that other one.

I agree that Parry shouldn't be removed from the equation - I know he had an alibi for the evening of the killing, and also the time of the phone call the night before, but these could be fabricated. I'm just not convinced that it was him though. He was interviewed at Tuebrook Police Station and was discovered to not have any blood on him - (or is this part of the conspiracy?). John Parkes seemed so adamant that Parry was guilty of something...

Do you give any credence to Tom Slemen's John Johnstone theory?

I didn't at first - but I think on the possibilities in this case, that they could have committed the crime. I have never been 100% sure of the guilt of WHW, especially the complete lack of bloodstaining on his person (and I must say that James Murphy's theory didn't convince me that Wallace took a bath either).There are lots of points that I would address though to Tom Slemen, as I am not too convinced of his theory...

JSJ was interviewed by PC Fred Williams at the scene wasn't he, in fact both WHW and JSJ and Tom Slemen seems to think that because PC FW later said he didn't think WHW was guilty, that it summises that he thought JSJ was, but it seems that the police thought very quickly that they had their man and all other possibilities just went out of the window. Do you think JSJ could have made the Qualthrough phone call to get WHW out of the way and would he use his best friends name in the plan? (and has it ever been verified that the Qualthrough living in Anfield was indeed JSJ's best mate)

I think it is wrong too to call it Tom Slemens theory as I did earlier as I believe it has been mooted before.

There was a John Qualtrough living in Anfield at that time - whether he was a friend of John Johnston or not, I'm not sure we'll ever know...As for the phone call - would JSJ use a name that could throw suspicion on him? Slemen seems to think so...of course, the idea is that JSJ didn't intend to kill JW, but just to retrieve something that belonged to him in the Wallace household. You're right of course, that the 'Johnston' theory had already been put forward before Tom Slemen. It might be argued though, that because Williams didn't believe Wallace had done it, he naturally believed that it was Johnston. I would like to know a bit more about Marsden (the other co-worker of the Pru that was accused by WHW of being short in his collections). If my research is right, he lived in Knoclaid Road, where, if the police interviews are anything to go by, a Mrs. Olivia Brine lived. Mrs. Brine gave the police a statement that Parry was at her house sometime during the evening of the 20th January. Hmm, both Parry & Marsden in the same street on the night of the killing...

Isn't Knoclaid rd where a bobby saw WHW looking distressed too - seems to play a large part in it?

Was anything found in the house belonging to JSJ and did WHW say he had anything belonging to SJS or is this just a theory. If he did go in to collect something legit, do you mean something then happened that led to her death that was not pre-planned?

what about the blood found in the lavatory pan?

I have a Telegraph Homes Article from a few years ago somewhere which I could possibly scan if it can survive the trip back home to Wirral! Will fish it out for yer.

Yes - Knoclaid Road is a continuation of Maiden Lane (where PC Rothwell saw Wallace). Just what it was that was in WHW's house belonging JSJ is a mystery. Tom Slemen suggested this (whether it has been suggested before elsewhere, I am not sure) but Slemen told me that he wasn't prepared to divulge it until he publishes his book on the case. If I am correct in Tom Slemen's piece for the Merseymart in 2001, he claimed that Julia saw JSJ in the front parlour and this left JSJ with no option but to kill her. It was out - Julia realised then that JSJ was the Anfield Housebreaker.


Re: blood on lavatory pan

Dr Coope and Dr Dible carried out over 100 tests concerning the blood clot, and the form/shape corresponded to a blood clot that would have to have been at least an hour old (when deposited). The amount of people who entered the bathroom post-murder was substantial - it could have been any of the police, MacFall, or even Wallace himself (unless of course, we assume it was there even BEFORE the murder occured and was nothing to do with the crime).

A funny thing concerning the blood clot - one source stated that when asked whether the police had taken a photograph of it on the water closet DS Moore stated "No" - yet there is a photograph of it in different publications.

.


A funny thing concerning the blood clot - one source stated that when asked whether the police had taken a photograph of it on the water closet DS Moore stated "No" - yet there is a photograph of it in different publications.

What publications? Would like to see a photo....miss morbid I am!:)

hmm, the theory that Julia realised JSJ was the Anfield housebreaker - that is a good theory and could well be right. It's a good possibility :nod:

Yes a theory because neither JW or SJS ever mentioned it of course for obvious reasons.

[/Quote]
A funny thing concerning the blood clot - one source stated that when asked whether the police had taken a photograph of it on the water closet DS Moore stated "No" - yet there is a photograph of it in different publications.[/QUOTE]

What publications? Would like to see a photo....miss morbid I am!:)[/QUOTE]

I'll try and get a scan of it up on the site. I know it appeared in Murder Case Book 25 (The Wallace Case) in 1990. I think I have a photo of it somewhere.

Mark

Hi all

There has been quite a bit of discussion of the Julia Wallace murder case on Casebook: Jack the Ripper, including recently a photograph posted of the house, 29 Wolverton Street, and the back entry behind the house that William Wallace is thought to have used to catch the tram to the mythical Menlove Gardens East. Go to

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=30

Chris


This was a great link given by Chris earlier in the thread - just in case you missed it with some fantastic photos by MarkR.

Photo of the lavatory pan with blood spot (circled).

I spy a bit of the previous nights echo there as well, they weren't that 'posh' then :unibrow:

Yeah, you're right - on the police photographs of the bathroom ripped up pieces of the 'echo' can be seen hanging on the wall...

Ugh - what were they stuck up there with - not previously used specimens I hope.

Great pics you've got though.

Hah! No. They're on a holder or string.

Yeah, you're right - on the police photographs of the bathroom ripped up pieces of the 'echo' can be seen hanging on the wall...

My uncle, the Liverpool comedian Billy Matchett, used to tell a joke about a newspaper boy who shouted out "Echo pooh!" When asked why he shouted that he said it was because he was wearing his old man's kecks!

Chris

I remember the little old bloke in Byrom Street who used sell the echoes at the traffic lights going down the queue when they were on red. He used to yell 'Last city echo' but now i'm thinking that I may have misheard it.

Does anyone have a copy of Murphy's book, on the Julia Wallace, murder for sale? I would be interested in purchasing a copy. I check with Amazon on a regular basis but it show's 'unavailable'. Thanks in advance.

Hi Sloyne: Here are three UK copies listed as for sale NOW between £7.99-15.00! Original RRP was £8.99. Air mail is quite reasonable.

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&y=12&tn=murder+of+julia+wallace&x=42&sortby=3

You will have to register, then contact the bookseller to see if still available. I can recommend buying through this site. Good Luck! It really is an excellent read.

Jon Goodman's 1969 seminal classic:

Marshall Cavendish 1990 issue of The Wallace Case in their series:

Thanks, Mark. I am curious about your Avatar. Is that, as I assume, Regent Street, London, behind you?

Chris

Does anyone know anyone who attended Tom Slemen's 2001 talk about this case "to 1500 people" at St. George's Hall ?

Hi Chris

Very observant! Yes it is me in Piccadilly Circus with Regent Street behind!

John Rowland 1st edition of his 1949 study.

Twyford Street/Richmond Park alleyway. On the evening of the 20th January 1931 James Allison Wildman stated that he was halfway through this entry when he glanced up at the Holy Trinity Church clock and noticed that the time was 6.35pm.

Holy Trinity Church (from Richmond Park)

Great Mark. Keep em coming.

Found on the corner of Rochester (now Lower Breck) Road and Breck Road. This was the original phone box (taken in the early 1930's).

William Herbert Wallace

I work in a day centre in Anfield, teaching life skills to people with learning difficulties. About two years ago we decided to look into the Wallace case. One of our service users lives in Wolverton Street and so we had access to the entry. I will try and dig out the photos we took, we also visited Parkes garage, which is still owned by the family, they was very helpful. I always thought Wallace was innocent until i read the transcript of the trial, his alibi of not knowing the area (Menlove gardens), was blown away by his statement in court that he used to get violin lessons from someone in the Pru, who lived on Green Lane 10 second walk away from Menlove gardens. A n area he said he had never visited.

Wallace never said he didn't know the area of Menlove Avenue. At the chess club, when notified of Menlove Gardens East Wallace asked "Is it near Menlove Avenue?" In his statement he claimed he realised he knew he was on Green Lane only when he reached it. And he also stated that he never mentioned his calling at Crewe's home at first because he was asked who he had spoken to. (Wallace didn't get an answer as Crewe was at the cinema on the evening of the 20th). Yes, he visited the home of Joseph Crewe (his super) on five occassions over two years before, but this does not mean he actually knew the area. Let's not forget that Samuel Beattie (the chess club captain) and Edgar Bertram Deyes (another chess club member) both lived in the Menlove area and neither of these men knew whether or not there was a Menlove Gardens East. So it is unfair to suggest Wallace would have known.

I've read the James Murphy account which is anti WHW in the end, yet it still had me thinking he was innocent, perhaps because i'd heard the Radio City story regarding Parry.

Wallace never said he didn't know the area of Menlove Avenue. At the chess club, when notified of Menlove Gardens East Wallace asked "Is it near Menlove Avenue?" In his statement he claimed he realised he knew he was on Green Lane only when he reached it. And he also stated that he never mentioned his calling at Crewe's home at first because he was asked who he had spoken to. (Wallace didn't get an answer as Crewe was at the cinema on the evening of the 20th). Yes, he visited the home of Joseph Crewe (his super) on five occassions over two years before, but this does not mean he actually knew the area. Let's not forget that Samuel Beattie (the chess club captain) and Edgar Bertram Deyes (another chess club member) both lived in the Menlove area and neither of these men knew whether or not there was a Menlove Gardens East. So it is unfair to suggest Wallace would have known.

Hi all

It would be natural enough to ask whether Menlove Gardens East was near Menlove Avenue if you didn't know the area well. Menlove Avenue is a major thoroughfare in Liverpool so a person could have heard of it without being conversant with the area.

Chris

And since there is a North, South and West, it would be only natural to assume there could be an East too.

Correct. I have always thought that much has been made that because WHW didn't consult a directory this points to his guilt. This is all very well with hindsight. Let's say for argument, that there would have been a Qualtrough and a Menlove Gardens East, we wouldn't be having a debate over it! I know James Murphy makes a lot of it in his book, especially with reference to Jonathan Goodman's mentioning of a similar circumstance he had himself in London. Murphy states that Goodman's reference wasn't the same and that a street he was looking for did actually exist. But Goodman also relates another story where he substituted a street name for a non-existent address and then called a friend up (unbeknownst). Yes, the acquaintance of Goodman went to the address (without consulting a directory) and spent over half an hour looking for the non-existent address...

Also, as hard as it might be to believe that WHW would have consulted a street directory back home, nobody did either in the chess club the night before (where there were witnesses galore) so it's feasable.

Yes, that's a great point Ged. I have always thought that. If WHW was the killer, he was taking a very big risk at the chess club. For all he knew anyone could have mentioned looking it up (in fact, Beattie did say "you'll have to look it up"). For all Wallace knew, there could have even been a directory at the chess club.

Hi All I am not saying Parry did the murder but just want some information from someone with local knowledge

How long would it take to drive from the famous telephone kiosk which I believe was on Priory Road to Missouri Road?

This is taken from the book by James Murphy:
Lilly Lloydd's mother stated that Parry arrived at her home 7, Missouri Road at 7-15pm precisely the time the telephone call was made to the chess club.

Thank You in anticipation:)

Missouri rd is quite near. You could drive to it very quickly, especially in those days when there was little traffic and the sides streets had no driving restrictions like they do now. ie; one way streets or no entry signs, so you'd be able to drive straight to any place on a more direct route.

In the 1930s there were fewer traffic lights to slow you down.

Assuming that the route to Missouri rd was taken via Townsend lane and turning right into Maiden lane, I'm assuming that there must have been less traffic lights at that time .. (there are 4 sets of lights now which have been added in recent years). I just edited this to say that from the 'triangle' where the phone box was located, there are currently 5 sets of lights including 3 more recent pelican crossings and a fairly new set of lights before the turning onto Maiden lane.

At a rough guess it would take about 4 mins ! Depending of course how fast or slow you drive.

Yes, I would have said about 5 minutes travelling time.

Thank You Lindy & Mark

So using the same criteria applied to Wallace himself by those who think he was guilty by that I mean being a little flexible with times. Parry could possibly have made the call and arrived at 7 Missouri Road quite soon after. Lilly Lloyd's mother may have been a few minutes out when she said he arrived at 7-15pm

Just a thought:)

And a reasonable thought Steve. How's the band coming along? :unibrow:

And a reasonable thought Steve. How's the band coming along? :unibrow:

Bit of a JOKER eh Ged ..:rolleyes:

Hee hee - there you are...

I know I hear it all the time. Personally I never liked them.

However I do have a brother called Glenn and another brother called Mick (anyone into greyhounds?)

Good mucker.

Back on subject then Steve. I take it, like me you believe WHW was innocent. Parry comes across as a bit of a lad, had been in trouble before, even with the Pru, WHW had grassed him up, a score to settle, an unreliable alibi that was revoked later on, the bloodied glove if we believe Parkes etc....

Hi Ged I am about 80% in favour of William Wallace being innocent.
After reading James Murphys' book I have been of the opinion that Parry did not do it but from his alibi on the Monday night for the telephone call it is possible he could have made that call.
However he does seem to have a perfect alibi for the Tuesday night but I am going to study this alibi a little more closely after all we do not know the time of death and thanks to McFall who bungled his initial inspection by relying on rigor for the time of death we don't even have a reliable time frame.

Yes, I think it is quite possible for Lily Lloyd's mother to have been inaccurate with the time on the Monday night. I'm not sure about Parry though...Like you say Steve, he seems to have a cast iron alibi for the evening of the murder from 5.30 up till about 8.30. I know I have stated this before that alibis can be fabricated, but I'm just not sure...I do myself tend to lean towards Wallace's innocence. Like you say, we don't know exactly when the killing was committed.

There is an Echo supplement in newsagents/vendors called MURDER MOST FOUL. I bought it today. It costs £1.50 and has several notorious local murder cases. The Maybrick Case is covered, as is The Cameo Murder. The Wallace Murder is the centrespread.

Hi Mark

Could you do me a favor and pick up a copy of the Echo supplement for me and I will pay you when I see you at the Maybrick event next month?

Chris

Sure Chris,

Doesn't matter about payment.

Mark

Cheers mark. I'll get it though I suppose nothing new as emerged and it's all just a reprint of what we already know?

Yeah. Nothing new but worth a read.

I've got a spare copy if Chris or anyone else wants it. Very poor bit of cobbled together, half-inched drivel, IMO.

Hi Mark
It would seem Parry has a cast iron alibi and although alibis can be fabricated this one seems to involve too many people.

Hi All
Page 92 of James Murphys' book states that in 1933 Parry refuted the claims that he was the murderer in a newspaper called Empire News.
Has anyone ever seen this article?

Hi Mark
It would seem Parry has a cast iron alibi and although alibis can be fabricated this one seems to involve too many people.

Hi Steve

Several witnesses claimed George Kelly was in the Beehive Pub prior to the Cameo Murders, which in fact turned out to be totally untrue. Although I have to admit, I am not convinced that Parry committed Julia's murder.

Best
Mark

A few things have always struck me as odd. First, you get the feeling that an insurance agent - particularly one who plays chess for fun - is not the sort of person to set out on a business engagement without first making reference to something as simple as a street directory. It just doesn't seem plausible. Secondly, Wallace seems to have gone to an awful of of trouble to make sure he was seen by reliable (non-passer-by witnesses) in a locality far from his home, at the time his wife was being murdered. Suspicious behaviour or what? Lastly, at a time when home telephones and directories were at a premium (we didn't get ours until 1974!), how did 'Qualtrough' not only know Wallace's line of business, but also his attendance routine at the chess club, the time he'd be there, and the number to call him on?

Let's send DI Sam Tyler back there pronto, to sort this one out.

I think it is reasonable to assume that Wallace could have thought the address existed without consulting a directory - hindsight is a marvellous thing! He did actually ask passers by in the Menlove area. First, he asked a woman coming out of a house on Menlove Gardens North and, secondly, a stranger stood at a shelter on Green Lane/Menlove Avenue junction (in fact, two other people who encountered Wallace on the evening in question didn't recognize him in a line-up).
Wallace's occupation would surely have been well known in the Anfield/Clubmoor area; he did after all make over 560 calls a week. The chess fixtures were listed on the notice board at the chess club - anyone visiting the club could have seen when Wallace was scheduled to play. Admittedly, this doesn't mean WHW would definitely be at the club on the said evening.
The phone number wouldn't have been a problem - the number was marked on the phone booth at the club.

If he did know his attendance routine at the club, he got it wrong, he wasn't there when he rang.

If he did know his attendance routine at the club, he got it wrong, he wasn't there when he rang.

If Wallace was the murder he was a clever one, but not clever enough to split himself in two and ring himself eh!

Aye. Another question is - did the caller botch the call up on purpose knowing it would be traced - or not.

Certainly if Wallace was the caller, he would'nt want it known it was a call box near to his home so why not ring in from near the cafe, then turn up 5 mins later? He could easily have been seen, being known in the area too so when the call trace transpired it was near his home and he'd been spotted, that would be that.

Could the 'real murderer' have botched it on purpose knowing the call would be traced to a box near Wallace's home and so put him in the frame.

Would any caller know that a call could be traced?

Personally I don't hold much weight by the fact that the call box was near Wallaces' home. It was also near a load more homes!

:)

My sister used to work with the GPO from about 1965 onwards - mainly at the Heswall telephone exchange, then later at the (haunted!) one just off Lodge Lane, in Liverpool. She always used to say that any suggestion of a call being traced - even as late as the 60s - would have meant engineers wheeling in massive amounts of equipment, and even then it would have had to have been in anticipation of an actual call needing tracing. Whether she's right or wrong on this, I don't know, but I should imagine it was something of a no-no for the 1930s.

The call to Wallace bears some thinking about, if we assume it to be directly related, in some way, to Julia Wallace's murder - and not just purely coincidental.

If you wanted him out of the way for an hour or so - so you could creep in and murder his wife - why would you take the risk of supplying a fictional address which, in his line of work and with such an expansive clientele, he might well have tumbled to at once? Then again, given the necessarily pedantic nature of of someone in the insurance trade, you might have fully expected him to check up on the location of his destination before he actually left the house. Really, you just wouldn't take that risk. Seems to me, he wanted an alibi for his whereabouts on that night circulated as widely as possible. Which isn't to suggest he was the actual murderer - but I still strongly suspect he was connected in some way with its planning.

But he knew where Menlove Gardens West was so he could easily assume he'd find East when he got up there. Why not create an alibi with a real address then, knock on the house (only obviously to be told he was mistaken) and still have an alibi, why rely on meeting a bobby on patrol. He could even knock next door first pretending he thought it was the house so he could be told no it's next door you want. Why not an address further out that would give him longer? Doing all of this, he could still have pestered the tram conductor as he did to make sure he got off at the right stop etc.

Hi Murphy deals with the fictional address quite well in his book
He says that the caller meant to say West and not east but made a mistake
Of course Murphy is working on the assumption that Wallace was the caller
When the message is relayed to Wallace he begins to write the address down as West but he is corrected.:shock:

There is some controversy concerning the telephone call - Gladys Harley stated that the line wasn't engaged and no-one had used the phone for about half an hour at the cafe. Yet there was talk that the operator said the line was engaged. Telephone technician Leslie Heaton stated in his testimony that the phone had a technical fault. Bear in mind that the call was traced the Wednesday 21st (I believe). The phone could actually have recieved the fault after the Monday message. I suppose we'll never know exactly.

Re: Tracing of call. Personally I have always thought that the idea of WHW using a box so close to his home is questionable. When I first read this case many, many years ago, the first thing I thought was that it was someone else deliberately going out of their way to cause enough commotion for the call to be traced, thereby implicating Wallace. I think that there is a good chance that Qualtrough (whether it be Wallace or someone else) could have thought the call could have been traced. Wallace had a scientific mind and, after all, it was actually traced.

I recreated the Close Route that he took on the evening of 20th January 1931, and I have to say that I do not believe he would have completed that part of the round in 6 minutes. I used a stopwatch and it took me 5 minutes 31 seconds just to walk the route, not taking into consideration the stops Close would have had to make. I was also walking at a fair pace. I know some of the route is inaccessible but I recreated it in a way to overcome some of the obstacles. I honestly believe that Close would have at least taken 8 minutes.

In his statement Wallace claimed he walked up here on 20th January 1931. The steps are virtually unchanged since then.

Great stuff Mark. Thanks for the photies and info. They do look ancient.

Cor, I used to live around there for awhile and have walked up those steps many times. To think I,ve walked in the steps of a murderer. Or maybe not.
It,s spooky:shock:

Those steps, I have walked up and down them literally trillions of times.
That walk from Sedley st down to Wolverton st was part of my childhood.
There was a little shop at the top of the steps (that's the side wall of it on Marks photo) .. I spent my pocket money in there every week. :)
We used to leg it up the hill from Wolverton st so we always refered to the shop as 'up the slope' .. '' mum ! can I have sixpence to go up the slope !'' :)
The shop is empty now and boarded up. I still pass by that way quite often.

The front bay window of our house looked over to the Wallace house. When we were kids we used to try and scare each other with tales about there being blood on the walls ! :shock: :)

Interesting reminiscences Lindylou - great stuff!

.. and here is the little shop 'up the slope' :)


It's a shame to see it derelict, it used to be thriving. I remember very well the Irish people who owned it.

Is that an arrow bar wrapper on the floor?

ha,ha, I used to buy them too :D

You'd bite it and pull it away from you to snap it off and it'd go further out than your arm would reach (on a warm day)

On a hot day, the paper would stick to it and you'd spend longer unwrapping it than eating it.

On a hot day, the paper would stick to it and you'd spend longer unwrapping it than eating it.

Penny Arrows, for an old penny.
Enough of a mouthful to shut you up for a while.

Gobstoppers that changed colours, so you had to keep getting your mucky fingers on them to have a look.

2d Sherbert Fountains.

A six of chips in a paper made cone, and drinking the vinegar that was left.

Smith's Crisps with the salt in a little blue twist of paper.

I'd better stop, as I'm off to the shops.

I go on the Southport site and tell them off for going off-topic (which they do a lot), and I'm guilty here.

Sorry, Kev.

Good memories. Thanks for the pics Mark and Lindy, keep em coming.

The back doors of nos. 31 & 29 are the doors to the left of the tyre. This was where WHW met the Johnstons at about 8.45 on the evening of 20th January 1931.

Atkinson's Garage (Moscow Drive). John Parkes claimed RGP came to here on the evening of 20th January to have his car 'hosed down.'

Great old building. What are those premises used for now I wonder?

It looks closed up, at one time they were the biggest hackney carriage fleet owners in the city and had been since the days of horse cabs.

I think the garage is still owned by the Atkinson family

I used to go past this garage about 4 years ago and it was full of black cabs being worked upon.

I think the garage is still owned by the Atkinson family
Mark, see if you can find out, I would be interested, just being nosey. I used to live in Sutton St. and was in the cab biz before I emigrated.

I'll try to. I actually live at the bottom of Sutton Street (New Road).

At approximately 8.45 on the evening of 20th January 1931 William Herbert Wallace was met by John Sharpe Johnston and Florence Johnston here.

You can picture it can't you, takes you back in time (minus the purple bins)

It certainly does. The same cobbles...I am hoping to write a book (and build a website) on the subject.

It certainly does. The same cobbles...I am hoping to write a book (and build a website) on the subject.

Hi Mark

The best of luck to you in those endeavours. :PDT11 Keep us posted on your progress on them.

Chris

At approximately 8.45 on the evening of 20th January 1931 William Herbert Wallace was met by John Sharpe Johnston and Florence Johnston here.

Did you bunk over, or did someone leave the alleygate open?

Hi Mark

The best of luck to you in those endeavours. :PDT11 Keep us posted on your progress on them.

Chris

Thanks Chris. Will do.

Mark

Did you bunk over, or did someone leave the alleygate open?

The alleygate was left open so I thought I would just take a look!

On Thursday 22nd January, 1931, Wallace met up with club captain Samuel Beattie and James Caird on the corner here (at about 10.20 - 10.30). Wallace asked Beattie whether he could "get any nearer" (to the time that the call was made to the chess club). Wallace also told Beattie that "the police have cleared me". Little did Wallace know that the police were actually following him.

Photo: ©Liverpool Libraries and Information Services

Mark, see if you can find out, I would be interested, just being nosey. I used to live in Sutton St. and was in the cab biz before I emigrated.

It is still used as a cab garage. I went past the other day and there was a fleet of black cabs there! The company was foundered in 1910. I wrote recently to the company to see if I can get inside and have a look around. I'll see if I get any reply.

I recently obtained The Man From The Pru from a local DVD company. The picture is not too bad.

Here's the link:

http://www.liverpoolartistes.com/index.php?f=data_home&a=2

I've got that one, quite good isn't it.

:)Thanks for that Mark, will keep the link on file for future reference

Chippie-
No problem

Ged-
Yeah, it's a good film. Good to see that they used a lot of the actual dialogue that was in the trial transcription (with the exception of Mrs. Johnston using the phrase "Julia would go mad if she saw this" - (it was actually Wallace who said it) but I suppose I'm grabbing at straws!! As you say, great film though - very atmospheric.

I love this thread
I finished reading a book on the case last week (the name escapes me! is it 'who killed julia wallace?' by Murphy?)

I decided to take a little drive at the weekend in the vicinity of Wolverton Street....
It gave me a strange feeling being outside number 29...very eerie....

I will deffo get a copy of that DVD as I have been dying to see it for years! thanks for the great link!

If the book you read is by Murphy it is The Murder of Julia Wallace. Jonathan Goodman wrote the book The Killing of Julia Wallace. I watched The Man From The Pru for the umpteenth time last night! I recently managed to get access to the Wallace Case File at Merseyside Police. Some interesting material amongst it. I hope to write a book on the case. In fact I have been for nigh on two years!

Mark

Good luck with that venture Mark. I'll look forward to reading it. Anything juicy in those files then, can there be anything new? Has Mr Slemen gone quite on his claims or does he have a book to be written. If it's all a re-hash but just with added self opnion at the end, then it might be no better than this thread. I'd like to see a comprehensive list of facts with fors and againsts of why the author is coming to that conclusion.

Hi Ged

The file seems somewhat incomplete which is a disappointment. I suppose anything that old is certainly going to lose pieces of it (with World War II) and all that. Yes, I agree with you regarding Tom Slemen's book (re: the Johnstons). I know he told me a few years ago that some very odd things happened in the Johnstons house after the murder. Don't know what he means about that to be honest - (and where he got the information). I'm not sure whether he means on the murder night or afterwards. If he does mean afterwards he must be referring to 358 Townsend Avenue. The Johnstons moved there the next day.

I didn't know that Mark. Was it a move that was on the cards anyway and it was just a remarkable co-incidence that it came about next day or did the murder next door influence the move either because they felt spooked, in danger or had something to hide? How easy was it to move just like that, was it from and to a private landlord for instance?

Hi Ged

The file seems somewhat incomplete which is a disappointment. I suppose anything that old is certainly going to lose pieces of it (with World War II) and all that. Yes, I agree with you regarding Tom Slemen's book (re: the Johnstons). I know he told me a few years ago that some very odd things happened in the Johnstons house after the murder. Don't know what he means about that to be honest - (and where he got the information). I'm not sure whether he means on the murder night or afterwards. If he does mean afterwards he must be referring to 358 Townsend Avenue. The Johnstons moved there the next day.

it must have been quite exciting to actually have access to the file....would love to read your book....

Hi Ged & DaisyChains

Yes apparently the Johnstons moved the next day. I have always tended to think that maybe they were spooked like you say. Surely if they were guilty of the murder they wouldn't want to make it look suspicious as in moving away. But who knows? Maybe panic? The police didn't seem to investigate the Johnstons at all (as suspects). 358 Townsend Avenue was the home of their eldest daughter.

The file was quite interesting yes. No statements of Parry's though...The photographs of Julia on the mortuary slab are quite disturbing.

Mark

A couple of the books i've read are lacking photos of the areas surrounding the case which you have an ample supply of. They'd certainly enhance any publication.

A couple of the books i've read are lacking photos of the areas surrounding the case which you have an ample supply of. They'd certainly enhance any publication.

I agree with you Ged.
There are alot of descriptions of the places around Wolverton Street but not many pics.
I love the pic of the telephone box...that's a true gem :)

Chippie-
No problem

Ged-
Yeah, it's a good film. Good to see that they used a lot of the actual dialogue that was in the trial transcription (with the exception of Mrs. Johnston using the phrase "Julia would go mad if she saw this" - (it was actually Wallace who said it) but I suppose I'm grabbing at straws!! As you say, great film though - very atmospheric.

HI MARK
how did you go about ordering this film?
Ive been on the website but can't see an order form!

:)I've got that one, quite good isn't it.

hiya ged
where did you get your copy from?:)

Hi Ged

The file seems somewhat incomplete which is a disappointment. I suppose anything that old is certainly going to lose pieces of it (with World War II) and all that. Yes, I agree with you regarding Tom Slemen's book (re: the Johnstons). I know he told me a few years ago that some very odd things happened in the Johnstons house after the murder. Don't know what he means about that to be honest - (and where he got the information). I'm not sure whether he means on the murder night or afterwards. If he does mean afterwards he must be referring to 358 Townsend Avenue. The Johnstons moved there the next day.

Like furniture moving around by itself perhaps? :unibrow: :rolleyes:

:)

hiya ged
where did you get your copy from?:)

I taped the film off Channel 4 many moons ago.

If the book you read is by Murphy it is The Murder of Julia Wallace. Jonathan Goodman wrote the book The Killing of Julia Wallace. I watched The Man From The Pru for the umpteenth time last night! I recently managed to get access to the Wallace Case File at Merseyside Police. Some interesting material amongst it. I hope to write a book on the case. In fact I have been for nigh on two years!

Mark

Yes that's great, Mark, that you gained access to the Wallace Case File at Merseyside Police. I bet that was fascinating. I do wish you the best with your book project. I look forward to getting a signed copy. :unibrow:

I have a VHS tape of The Man From The Pru -- last time I checked it's not available on DVD. In fact I think it is still not on DVD if you look at the symbols for the flick on the Internet Movie Database (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097822/dvd). I believe I got my copy of the videotape on ebay as I recall.

Chris

Tried to email you back Daisy but it came back to me as 'undeliverable'.

Thanks Chris, Ged & DaisyChain

I wrote to the company (Liverpool Artistes) and ordered it through the post directly from them. Is the address on their site? If not, I'll have a look through my records and see if I can get the address.
The film was actually filmed in Wolverton Street (not at number 29 though). The company saw that number 10 was being renovated and they used that instead! Rob Rohrer (the director) actually originates from Anfield and he said he always wanted to do a movie version. Allison Daly (who plays the young girl Vicky Foster in the film) was actually 17 but played the part of a 12 year old. Allison ended up working for...wait for it...the company that originally defended Wallace and known as; Herbert J Davis, Berthen & Munro! The tram scenes used in the film were filmed in Fleetwood.

I hope that Who Killed Julia Wallace? will one day be shown again. This was made by Yorkshire TV in 1975 and screened October 29th 1975. If I am right it was shown again in the early 80's. They actually shot in the Anfield area. Very good show but I didn't agree with the outcome.

Mark

So if there are no statements from Parry in the case files where did James Murphy see his statement?

Thanks Chris, Ged & DaisyChain

I wrote to the company (Liverpool Artistes) and ordered it through the post directly from them. Is the address on their site? If not, I'll have a look through my records and see if I can get the address.
The film was actually filmed in Wolverton Street (not at number 29 though). The company saw that number 10 was being renovated and they used that instead! Rob Rohrer (the director) actually originates from Anfield and he said he always wanted to do a movie version. Allison Daly (who plays the young girl Vicky Foster in the film) was actually 17 but played the part of a 12 year old. Allison ended up working for...wait for it...the company that originally defended Wallace and known as; Herbert J Davis, Berthen & Munro! The tram scenes used in the film were filmed in Fleetwood.

I hope that Who Killed Julia Wallace? will one day be shown again. This was made by Yorkshire TV in 1975 and screened October 29th 1975. If I am right it was shown again in the early 80's. They actually shot in the Anfield area. Very good show but I didn't agree with the outcome.

Mark

Thanks Mark.
Interesting info.
I will write to the company. Seems a bit neanderthal when they have a website, but no email! But I am desperate to see the film so I shall...

Best of luck with the book!:)

Hi DaisyChains

Here's the contact details (in case you don't know them):

LIVERPOOL ARTISTES P.O. BOX 61 LIVERPOOL L13 OEF
CONTACT US: 0789 606 1382.

Hi Steve

Yes, I am trying to find out where the Parry, Young & Marsden statements are.

Hi DaisyChains

Here's the contact details (in case you don't know them):

LIVERPOOL ARTISTES P.O. BOX 61 LIVERPOOL L13 OEF
CONTACT US: 0789 606 1382.

Hi Steve

Yes, I am trying to find out where the Parry, Young & Marsden statements are.

Hiya Mark
Thanks for looking into that. Did you send your payment when you wrote off?

I sent off a cheque. I asked them how much it was first (I think it was £10 + £1 p&p). The picture is good quality.
Good luck with that!

Mark

I sent off a cheque. I asked them how much it was first (I think it was £10 + £1 p&p). The picture is good quality.
Good luck with that!

Mark

Thanks Mark
I am sending off today!

Have you started writing the book yet?

Hi DaisyChains

Yes, I've been scribbling things down amid researching the case. I would also hope to include as many photographs as possible. I have quite an extensive range.

Mark

Brilliant.
I'm sure it will sell really well

Thanks for that. I hope to be able to get a copy of the Radio City broadcast from 20th January 1981 (Roger Wilkes) programme Who Killed Julia? I remember it being on the radio many years ago. It was on for about two hours. Bit of trivia; Sidney Hubert Green (the 23 year old clerk that Wallace spoke to in Dudlow Lane on his quest for R.M. Qualtrough) died on 20th January 1981. Who would have believed that he would die on the exact date 50 years after his encounter with WHW? Creepy...

Here's a credit list for the docu-drama:

http://ftvdb.bfi.org.uk/sift/title/397240?view=cast

John Chegwin appeared in both this (as PC Serjeant) and The Man From The Pru (as the Prison Governor).

Shay Gormon appeared as DS Hubert Moore. For those who may remember, Gormon appeared as Molloy in the series Boys From The Blackstuff.

Here's a credit list for the docu-drama:

http://ftvdb.bfi.org.uk/sift/title/397240?view=cast

John Chegwin appeared in both this (as PC Serjeant) and The Man From The Pru (as the Prison Governor).

Shay Gormon appeared as DS Hubert Moore. For those who may remember, Gormon appeared as Molloy in the series Boys From The Blackstuff.

brilliant stuff mark.
I looked on imdb.com for this, but no trace of it.

Hi DaisyChains

Yes you're right. There's no mention of it on IMDb. (I mis-spelt the name of the actor playing Moore - it should be Gorman). I wrote to The Film Archive a few years ago and a copy of it would probably be about £200 (or even more!) Hopefully it might be released one day. I remember seeing it in October 1975 on ITV (when I was 9) and being completely mesmerised! I'm sure it was on again in the early 1980's (didn't video it though). Billy Butler has a regular spot titled I Haven't Seen It For Years (where he asks listeners if they have copies of more obscure programmes/films) but no sign of anything yet. The good thing with Billy is, he keeps everything on record and keeps looking.

Regards
Mark

:)Hi DaisyChains

Yes you're right. There's no mention of it on IMDb. (I mis-spelt the name of the actor playing Moore - it should be Gorman). I wrote to The Film Archive a few years ago and a copy of it would probably be about £200 (or even more!) Hopefully it might be released one day. I remember seeing it in October 1975 on ITV (when I was 9) and being completely mesmerised! I'm sure it was on again in the early 1980's (didn't video it though). Billy Butler has a regular spot titled I Haven't Seen It For Years (where he asks listeners if they have copies of more obscure programmes/films) but no sign of anything yet. The good thing with Billy is, he keeps everything on record and keeps looking.

Regards
Mark

That's brilliant. I wish there were more people like that!
Maybe we could try putting ads in some local papers want sections? (Loot, echo, merseymart)
I sent my cheque for Man from the Pru today, so looking forward to that:)

Have you written any of your book yet?

Hi DaisyChains

Glad you've ordered The Man From The Pru. I hope the BFI release Who Killed Julia Wallace? on DVD. It is quite possible (maybe if enough of us wrote to them!!). Yes, I've been writing parts of the book (It is a bit disjointed at the moment, with writing different sections!)
On the credit list for Who Killed Julia Wallace? The names should read:

MacFall (not McFall)

Johnston (without the 'e' at the end)

Hemmerde (not Hammerde)

Allan Close

Serjeant (not Sargent)

Metcalf (not Metcalfe)

Had to get that off my chest!

Hi DaisyChains

Glad you've ordered The Man From The Pru. I hope the BFI release Who Killed Julia Wallace? on DVD. It is quite possible (maybe if enough of us wrote to them!!). Yes, I've been writing parts of the book (It is a bit disjointed at the moment, with writing different sections!)
On the credit list for Who Killed Julia Wallace? The names should read:

MacFall (not McFall)

Johnston (without the 'e' at the end)

Hemmerde (not Hammerde)

Allan Close

Serjeant (not Sargent)

Metcalf (not Metcalfe)

Had to get that off my chest!


My Man from the Pru came today...it's really good, I am only half way through so far though
Was it actually filmed in Liverpool at all?
It's a very very dark film but I suppose it had to be for the subject matter

Hiya DaisyChains

The film was actually filmed in Wolverton Street (not at number 29 though). The company saw that number 10 was being renovated and they used that instead! Rob Rohrer (the director) actually originates from Anfield and he said he always wanted to do a movie version. Allison Daly (who plays the young girl Vicky Foster in the film) was actually 17 but played the part of a 12 year old. Allison ended up working for...wait for it...the company that originally defended Wallace and known as; Herbert J Davis, Berthen & Munro! The tram scenes used in the film were filmed in Fleetwood. Sefton Park Palm House features in the film (not far from 83 Ullet Road, where Amy Wallace lived at the time of the case, and where WHW was arrested on the evening of 2nd February 1931). St. George's Hall was actually used for the trial scenes. Other locations used were Clubmoor & Calderstones Park.
Yes, it is a dark film.

Hope to go on the Wallace route tomorrow afternoon (weather permitting). I'll hopefully get some photos and put them up on here.

Cottle City Cafe was situated here (under the right hand doric entrance)

Belmont Road/Rocky Lane. Wallace claimed he took the number 26 tram from this corner. A number 26 bus stands at the corner.

:)brilliant pics Mark. Such familiar places, but filled with historical sentiment.

Brilliant info about the film too.

I really admire your interest in this case...:)

Thanks DaisyChains.

I hope to go down to the National Archives (at Kew in Surrey) in the next few months.
Yes, whenever I travel around I always think of the historical significance of the places associated with the case. I bet there are people who know of the case that don't even realise that they could be walking in the footsteps of Wallace. Lister Drive school (in Tuebrook) was where I went to school. When Roger Wilkes wrote his excellent Wallace: The Final Verdict book I was astounded to learn that Richard Gordon Parry, Lily Lloyd and John Parkes all went there as well. It seems so personal to me. My mother was born a stone's throw away from Box 1627 (three years after the murder) and she was christened in Holy Trinity Church.

Regards

Mark

Thanks DaisyChains.

I hope to go down to the National Archives (at Kew in Surrey) in the next few months....

Be warned. It'll take you days to go through all the files and even longer to copy them. I've seen them; they're in big boxes and there's a ton to wade through. Perhaps James Murphy might be able to help you out with a copy of whatever is held at Kew as I presume he had access once upon a long ago...saves you a journey too. Not to mention Hotel fees.

Be warned. It'll take you days to go through all the files and even longer to copy them. I've seen them; they're in big boxes and there's a ton to wade through. Perhaps James Murphy might be able to help you out with a copy of whatever is held at Kew as I presume he had access once upon a long ago...saves you a journey too. Not to mention Hotel fees.

I understand what you mean AP, but I personally would like to go to Kew to research.
I just think you would have a great sense of achievement and a fantastic feeling holding certain documents in your hands.

I understand what you mean AP, but I personally would like to go to Kew to research.
I just think you would have a great sense of achievement and a fantastic feeling holding certain documents in your hands.

Exactly. Not trying to put you off at all. Go for it mate, just allow yourself a couple of days minimum. I think there are three big files down there. You can check for yourself online and pre-reserve them afore ye visit.

Thanks for that but I'd rather get them first hand.
I agree totally with you DC. I actually have copies of one of the boxes so I won't have to copy that one. I have a digital camera and if I have to, I'll make several visits!

Thanks for that but I'd rather get them first hand.
I agree totally with you DC. I actually have copies of one of the boxes so I won't have to copy that one. I have a digital camera and if I have to, I'll make several visits!

It might sound weird, but I think to write a book on a murder case of such high standing as Wallace, you have to sort of make your own journey to get to a conclusion.

I just bought that Wallace book you recommended Mark a few posts back. Ta for the tip.:)

Have you contacted the people who live in the Wallace house?
Have you been inside?

Couldn't agree more DaisyChains.
What book did you get?
Yes, I wrote two different letters to 29 Wolverton Street (some months ago); one came back as 'not at this address' and the other was unanswered. Guess the owners want their privacy.
No, I haven't been inside no.29.

Couldn't agree more DaisyChains.
What book did you get?
Yes, I wrote two different letters to 29 Wolverton Street (some months ago)
one came back as 'not at this address' and the other I didn't receive a reply. Guess the owners want their privacy.

Wallace: The Final Verdict I bought off Amazon..... looking forward to it.
I had a little look at the house a few weeks ago on a rainy saturday afternoon. Just drove down the street and hovered and back again. I was looking at the kids playing in the street and just thinking they probably had no idea what history that street holds.
It's a shame the residents won't respond. If it was me living there, I would be made up for people to take an interest in where I lived.
Must be spooky living there when you know all the details though!

type in 29 wolverton street into google.co.uk and have a look at the 5th result!:)

Glad you got a copy of Wilkes' Final Verdict. I think it is an excellent book. Some of the illustrations are fantastic. I wrote to Roger a few months ago and he wrote an interesting (and kind) reply.
Yes, it was Kevin Firth I wrote to (which came back as 'not at this address'). I think the second letter I wrote was to the current occupant Julie... something or other (not Julia!). Yes, I have to admit, I would live there (would be quite weird though).
Wolverton Street had had a tragic history even before the Wallace murder. By 1930 there had been 5 deaths concerning its residents: 3 suicides, plus one resident had died at a football match and one fell to his death from the Great Orme in Llandudno. I know my mother always told me that my grandmother said that Wolverton Street was always an eerie street, and that you would never see a front door open. Suppose this could have been down to the Anfield Housebreaker though...

Glad you got a copy of Wilkes' Final Verdict. I think it is an excellent book. Some of the illustrations are fantastic. I wrote to Roger a few months ago and he wrote an interesting (and kind) reply.
Yes, it was Kevin Firth I wrote to (which came back as 'not at this address'). I think the second letter I wrote was to the current occupant Julie... something or other (not Julia!). Yes, I have to admit, I would live there (would be quite weird though).
Wolverton Street had had a tragic history even before the Wallace murder. By 1930 there had been 5 deaths concerning its residents: 3 suicides, plus one resident had died at a football match and one fell to his death from the Great Orme in Llandudno. I know my mother always told me that my grandmother said that Wolverton Street was always an eerie street, and that you would never see a front door open. Suppose this could have been down to the Anfield Housebreaker though...

ooohhh i didn't know the history of the house. That's very spooky!
This is why your book will be grand! hehe:) Plus you have relatives who have lived around that area and you have yourself, always the best position to be in i think

It's true that Wolverton st was always very quiet and some might say it was an eerie street. I'd heard about those other deaths and we used to say that maybe it was an unlucky road.

I enjoyed my childhood there though, and I wish I still lived in that street today as it is clean with well kept houses and still quiet. It is one of the nicer streets in Anfield. The surrounding area is deteriorating rapidly, but Wolverton street has remained as nice as it always was - away from the noisy main roads and shops - and as it is tucked away only people who live there go in and out.

I wouldn't live in no 29 though - no way !!
The houses on that side were a tad smaller the ones on our side. Our side had bigger back yards and bigger kitchens. :)

we looked over to the Wallace house. I lived there for 14 years.



Mark, do any of your family remember the big house at the far end ? The Campbells lived there since at least the 1920's until late 60s/early70's and they held dance classes there, also ballroom dancing evenings - my grandmother used to tell me about it.

The dances had stopped by the time I was growing up there but the family remained living there. I think it must have been early 1970's when the place was demolished. (there are new house there now on the site - Richmond Park - was the front of the house with the drive way, and the ones at the back - Redcar Mews - are where the back gardens of the house used to be.)
What a shame it was pulled down. It was a fine big house like the villas in Breckside park. I wish we had taken some photos of it - - but you didn't bother in those days. :rolleyes:
In fact, I wish we'd taken more photos of the whole street. I only have two photos of the street with my mum and cousin on them ( so I won't post them) :ninja:

I have searched high and low on the net for any old pics or info on the place but I've never found anything.
Mark, ask any older members of your family if they remember it.
I'd love to see a picture of it.

I wonder if Mr & Mrs Wallace ever went there for ballroom dancing :)

When we were kids we made a den in the bushes at the side of the house .. Mr & Mrs Campbell would chase any kids who wandered up their driveway .. but we used to sneak over the wall which divided it from our street. We would take butties and a bottle of lemmo and hide in our den undetected :)
I have very fond memories of Wolverton st.

ps,

the bit about the doors never being open - is probably true.
The street was what you might call rather staid, even in later years when we lived there. Neighbours didn't leave their doors open and you seldom seen them chatting on the steps. it was more likely to be a passing ''good morning'' and that was that :)
We kids did play out in the street but the neighbours didn't mix a lot.

It's true that Wolverton st was always very quiet and some might say it was an eerie street. I'd heard about those other deaths and we used to say that maybe it was an unlucky road.

I enjoyed my childhood there though, and I wish I still lived in that street today as it is clean with well kept houses and still quiet. It is one of the nicer streets in Anfield. The surrounding area is deteriorating rapidly, but Wolverton street has remained as nice as it always was - away from the noisy main roads and shops - and as it is tucked away only people who live there go in and out.

I wouldn't live in no 29 though - no way !!
The houses on that side were a tad smaller the ones on our side. Our side had bigger back yards and bigger kitchens. :)

we looked over to the Wallace house. I lived there for 14 years.



Mark, do any of your family remember the big house at the far end ? The Campbells lived there since at least the 1920's until late 60s/early70's and they held dance classes there, also ballroom dancing evenings - my grandmother used to tell me about it.

The dances had stopped by the time I was growing up there but the family remained living there. I think it must have been early 1970's when the place was demolished. (there are new house there now on the site - Redcar Mews.)
What a shame it was pulled down. It was a fine big house like the villas in Breckside park. I wish we had taken some photos of it - - but you didn't bother in those days. :rolleyes:
In fact, I wish we'd taken more photos of the whole street. I only have two photos of the street with my mum and cousin on them ( so I won't post them) :ninja:

I have searched high and low on the net for any old pics or info on the place but I've never found anything.
Mark, ask any older members of your family if they remember it.
I'd love to see a picture of it.

I wonder if Mr & Mrs Wallace ever went there for ballroom dancing :)

When we were kids we made a den in the bushes at the side of the house .. Mr & Mrs Campbell would chase any kids who wandered up their driveway .. but we used to sneak over the wall which divided it from our street. We would take butties and a bottle of lemmo and hide in our den undetected :)
I have very fond memories of Wolverton st.

ps,

the bit about the doors never being open - is probably true.
The street was what you might call rather staid, even in later years when we lived there. Neighbours didn't leave their doors open and you seldom seen them chatting on the steps. it was more like a passing ''good morning'' and that was that :)
We kids did play out in the street but the neighbours didn't mix a lot.

Fascinating stuff Lindy!:)

Hi lindylou

Excellent memories of your growing up in the street. I don't remember Campbell's but I think you're right regarding it being demolished in the 1970's. I have heard of it during the case (Campbell's Dance Hall) and I think I have a photo somewhere (looking up Wolverton Street from the other end and a good distance from the house itself though). There is what looks like a large house at the cul-de-sac end. I am assuming it is that...
Yes, it is a nice street irrespective of its history. Yes, you can almost hear yourself think there.

I traced where the Telephone Exchange (from where the phone-call from Box 1627 was recorded). It was on Richmond Street (off Breck Road) but sadly the building has been demolished.

That will be Richmond terrace (rather than street) off Breck rd. :)

Yes, the big house was at the cul-de-sac end. (Although officially it wasn't a cul-de-sac as you could walk throught the alley into Richmond Park. No traffic could pass through it though.
It was the grounds of the house that separated it from Wolverton and made the street a dead end (excuse the pun):unibrow:


I'm surprised that I could never find anything about Campbells Dance Hall on the internet - you'd think it would be listed somewhere!


I remember me and my mate telling two lads that we were sisters and we lived there in that big house :D :D .. when they walked us home we told them they had to leave us at the drive way 'cos our dad was so strict he would chase them if he saw them -ha! We pretended to walk down to 'our' front door but we hid at the back until the lads had gone :smirk:

I only saw a bit of the interior of the house when it was left empty.
The hallway had typical Victorian style tiled floor and a sweeping staircase if my memory serves me correctly.
There was a games room in there with a snooker table.

Oh, if only I'd taken pictures:rolleyes::(

Yes, Richmond Terrace. I think it was numbered 5 and on the left on entering (from Breck Road end).

Hi Mark good luck with the research and like the others I look forward to reading your results.
If at all possible could you post the actual telephone conversation between Qualtrough and Beattie as it appears in Beatties' statement please.
I understand if you don't want to due to your ongoing research.

Hi All if anyone is interested I am selling two studies in crime and Murderer Scott-Free send me a message if you are interested

Hi Steve,

Yes, I'll try and get the statement up here. There are actually two statements made by Beattie.

Hi Steve,

Yes, I'll try and get the statement up here. There are actually two statements made by Beattie.


Hi Mark,

Are you working with Slemen on this ? And have you contacted any publishers to see if there's any interest in putting out another Wallace book ?

AP.

No, I'm not working with Slemen. I'm doing it single handed. I'm awaiting responses from publishers I've wrote to.

Out of all the photographs connected with the Wallace Case this is my favourite. Taken in 1969 in conjunction with the publishing of Jonathan Goodman's classic The Killing of Julia Wallace. It shows (from l to r); Hector Munro (Wallace's solicitor), Jonathan Goodman, Dr Robert Coope (Honorary Assistant Physician to the Liverpool Royal Infirmary and Lecturer in Clinical Chemistry and Acting Demonstrator in Medical Pathology at the University of Liverpool in 1931) and James Henry Dible (Professor of Pathology at Liverpool University at the time of the Wallace Case).
The photo would have been greatly enhanced by the presence of Wallace's Junior Defence Counsel Sydney Scholefield Allen but he was unable to attend the press conference due to ill health.

Out of all the photographs connected with the Wallace Case this is my favourite. Taken in 1969 in conjunction with the publishing of Jonathan Goodman's classic The Killing of Julia Wallace. It shows (from l to r); Hector Munro (Wallace's solicitor), Jonathan Goodman, Dr Robert Coope (Honorary Assistant Physician to the Liverpool Royal Infirmary and Lecturer in Clinical Chemistry and Acting Demonstrator in Medical Pathology at the University of Liverpool in 1931) and James Henry Dible (Professor of Pathology at Liverpool University at the time of the Wallace Case).
The photo would have been greatly enhanced by the presence of Wallace's Junior Defence Counsel Sydney Scholefield Allen but he was unable to attend the press conference due to ill health.

A brilliant piece of historical photography!
I am sure there is alot of scope for another Wallace book
When was the last one published?

No, I'm not working with Slemen. I'm doing it single handed. I'm awaiting responses from publishers I've wrote to.

Hope all things go well for you Mark. :)

Thanks lindylou

DS. The last full-length study on the Wallace Case was James Murphy'sThe Murder of Julia Wallace (published by Bluecoat Press in 2001). The previous one to that was The Insurance Man by Richard Waterhouse and published in 1994. Both books were paperback.