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Downey
01-30-2007, 08:42 PM
St Andrew's Church Yard, Rodney Street, Liverpool (http://www.edwardjkelly.com/standrewsgraveyard.htm)

Does anybody know if the rumour true that inside that pyramid grave is a man sitting at a table playing cards?

Kev
01-30-2007, 08:46 PM
thats fab!
gonna use it as my desktop!!

It's not perfect but its a start.


Great pics, does anybody know if the rumour true that inside that pyramid grave is a man sitting at a table playing cards?

Those rumours eh? :shock:

MissInformed
01-30-2007, 08:51 PM
It's not perfect but its a start.



Those rumours eh? :shock:

That is a rumour I think, I think Tom Slemen has circulated it and made it urban myth. But where is the evidence for this?
Did Mackenzie make some sort of will?
Plus, has anyone ever tried to open the pyramid?

Gerard
01-30-2007, 08:52 PM
Great pics, does anybody know if the rumour true that inside that pyramid grave is a man sitting at a table playing cards?

Eee rrr Downey..Oooooooooooooooohhh Eeeeeeee!!!..Wooooooohhhhhh..lol !!!
Leave the Light on mate !!!.
http://www.geocities.com/tom_slemen/rodney.html

Kev
01-30-2007, 08:55 PM
would this be worth moving the the urban myths section?

MissInformed
01-30-2007, 08:56 PM
:handclap:
would this be worth moving the the urban myths section?

i mightily think so kev!

shytalk
01-30-2007, 08:57 PM
http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?t=713

:037:

PhilipG
01-30-2007, 09:00 PM
That is a rumour I think, I think Tom Slemen has circulated it and made it urban myth. But where is the evidence for this?
Did Mackenzie make some sort of will?
Plus, has anyone ever tried to open the pyramid?

I hope you're not encouraging people to open the pyramid, Carrie? :Colorz_Grey_PDT_24:
This is one story that Tom Slemen didn't start, and, as far as I know, it's true.
William Mackenzie was a gambler, and wanted to be buried sitting up at a card table holding a winning hand.
(So the devil wouldn't get him, but that bit might be a myth.)

Kev
01-30-2007, 09:01 PM
http://www.yoliverpool.com/pictorial/rodney_street_liverpool/DSC01694.jpg

http://www.yoliverpool.com/pictorial/rodney_street_liverpool/DSC01695.jpg

MissInformed
01-30-2007, 09:01 PM
ta kev!

I have always been interested in the pyramid since I was a kid.

I fear that if anything is developed on the site, it will be cleared away

Kev
01-30-2007, 09:04 PM
It better bloody not be cleared!!!! The place needs a sympathetic restoration and the tomb left alone.

MissInformed
01-30-2007, 09:14 PM
i know. but i bet modern developers wouldn't think that way!

I remember my dad telling me as a kid that some workmen had once tried to open the tomb but been unsuccessful. I dont know if that is true at all...

Philip...Where does the myth originate?

Downey
01-30-2007, 09:15 PM
Thanks for the story Gerard, I wonder what happened to the decoration atound the circle crest on the grave. You can see where it used to be.

PhilipG
01-30-2007, 09:42 PM
i know. but i bet modern developers wouldn't think that way!

I remember my dad telling me as a kid that some workmen had once tried to open the tomb but been unsuccessful. I dont know if that is true at all...

Philip...Where does the myth originate?

Can't remember, Carrie, but I heard about it years before Tom Slemen's books.
And it just makes sense - why else have such an unusual shape?
What date was TS's first book, BTW?

MissInformed
01-30-2007, 09:55 PM
Can't remember, Carrie, but I heard about it years before Tom Slemen's books.
And it just makes sense - why else have such an unusual shape?
What date was TS's first book, BTW?

ooohhh i think mid 90's.
I will have a little look through my books and get back to you on that.
He had some leaflet type things out before Haunted Liverpool though..

theninesisters
01-30-2007, 10:01 PM
That's my photo of the Tomb but I really don't remember taking it! :eek: :)

MissInformed
01-30-2007, 10:02 PM
how would we find out who owns the land?

theninesisters
01-30-2007, 10:04 PM
Isn't it still owned by that Doctor who won't give up the lease on the land? I'm sure that's why it's in such a state. The Uni want it for their land but then again, the Uni are trying to buy out the Masonic Hall in Hope Street - not if I've got anything to do with it :)

MissInformed
01-30-2007, 10:06 PM
hmmmm i won't say anything about that!!

a doctor? hmmm....i don't see the point in owning land like this and letting it fall into ruin, although he is probably waiting until someone offers him the best price...
I hope the uni don't buy it. They won't restore it, and the tomb will go for sure in my opinion

theninesisters
01-30-2007, 10:18 PM
Source - http://www.ancient-egypt.co.uk/

Gerard
01-30-2007, 10:25 PM
:handclap:

i mightily think so kev!

Whats all that Hand clappin' about Missinformed,D'yer get a Chocolate Frog or Something for Applaudin' Kev and all this "i mightily think so"...on removing my Tom Slemen Thingy..
I would have thought though a little more Encouragement would be given by Senior Members to Newbies Instead of putting them off Joining in..
Well Done Missinformed..:handclap: :handclap: :handclap:

Kev
01-30-2007, 10:30 PM
Ged, the applaud was for my moving the messages that had began to discuss the tomb, your message is still there mate, within this thread :)

Max
01-30-2007, 10:42 PM
Tried to take a night pic of that Tomb once.

Bloody errie when I go past It at night

PhilipG
01-30-2007, 10:44 PM
The church is Listed Grade II*, which is a higher listing than Grade II.
The churchyard and the graves will be included, so the only threat to the tomb is from people wanting to break into it.

Gerard
01-30-2007, 11:13 PM
Ged, the applaud was for my moving the messages that had began to discuss the tomb, your message is still there mate, within this thread :)

I put it on twice Kev cause it had been removed somewhere else and its still there and I never put it there,Other people noticed it moved as well..
I'm not going on about it being moved Kev,If its in the Wrong place Lad then it should be moved to the right place,I've got no problem with that Kev..
Lets have it right here though..all that Brown Nosin' does my head in...
Clappin and applaudin...C'mon we know what Im on about here.
And if this Causes murder then I'm off mate...Was good while it lasted though
Yer've gorra great little group here..:handclap: :handclap: best of luck.

MissInformed
01-31-2007, 07:44 AM
I put it on twice Kev cause it had been removed somewhere else and its still there and I never put it there,Other people noticed it moved as well..
I'm not going on about it being moved Kev,If its in the Wrong place Lad then it should be moved to the right place,I've got no problem with that Kev..
Lets have it right here though..all that Brown Nosin' does my head in...
Clappin and applaudin...C'mon we know what Im on about here.
And if this Causes murder then I'm off mate...Was good while it lasted though
Yer've gorra great little group here..:handclap: :handclap: best of luck.

forgive me if my politeness offends you

Kev
01-31-2007, 08:24 AM
I put it on twice Kev cause it had been removed somewhere else and its still there and I never put it there,Other people noticed it moved as well..
I'm not going on about it being moved Kev,If its in the Wrong place Lad then it should be moved to the right place,I've got no problem with that Kev..
Lets have it right here though..all that Brown Nosin' does my head in...
Clappin and applaudin...C'mon we know what Im on about here.
And if this Causes murder then I'm off mate...Was good while it lasted though
Yer've gorra great little group here..:handclap: :handclap: best of luck.

I think Missy was also happy with the idea of me creating a new thread out of a thread that was moving in a new direction. That's all.

MissInformed
01-31-2007, 08:33 AM
Just found this little page

http://www.edwardjkelly.com/standrewsgraveyard.htm

and this...

http://people.tribe.net/837e4206-da1a-45cf-85b0-bd991b445cd9/blog/cd64880a-f4b7-4ced-bac5-2da3199cb4bc

theninesisters
01-31-2007, 09:23 AM
Just found this little page

http://www.edwardjkelly.com/standrewsgraveyard.htm

and this...

http://people.tribe.net/837e4206-da1a-45cf-85b0-bd991b445cd9/blog/cd64880a-f4b7-4ced-bac5-2da3199cb4bc

Spot on Missy :handclap: :handclap: :handclap: :handclap: :handclap: :handclap: :handclap: :handclap: :gossip: :rolleyes: :)

Gerard
01-31-2007, 12:40 PM
forgive me if my politeness offends you

Politeness Eh !!!...Its called something else down Old Scottie Rd and its definately not Politeness....How does Brown Nosin' and Suckin' up grab yer.

theninesisters
01-31-2007, 12:47 PM
Politeness Eh !!!...Its called something else down Old Scottie Rd and its definately not Politeness....How does Brown Nosin' and Suckin' up grab yer.

Blimy Gerard, what's got you riled today? I've always found Miss i very polite on the forum. Probably 95% of us haven't ever met each other but we get along very well as everyone contributes some really interesting articles/pictures and the like. What may be dear to someone's heart may not interest someone else - being polite costs nothing in my book and there's not enough of it about if you ask me.

Kev
01-31-2007, 12:50 PM
Politeness Eh !!!...Its called something else down Old Scottie Rd and its definately not Politeness....How does Brown Nosin' and Suckin' up grab yer.

Gerard - The forum rules (http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?t=321) encourage politeness as number 1. Lets keep posts and contributions positive :) .

Kev

Gerard
01-31-2007, 01:11 PM
Gerard - The forum rules (http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?t=321) encourage politeness as number 1. Lets keep posts and contributions positive :) .

Kev

I couldnt agree more..Now boot me out for saying this but Missinformed's comments were out of order..There was no need for any Any Smarminess and it definately was not Polite.
And Now I cant answer Missinformed's sarcy latest answer "Forgive me if my Politeness offends you"...Suppose thats not Sarcastic Eh..Am I sacked now for telling the Truth...
Why no little Pop at Missinformed by the way Kev for that Sarcy Remark..

shytalk
01-31-2007, 01:11 PM
Just found this little page

http://www.edwardjkelly.com/standrewsgraveyard.htm

and this...

http://people.tribe.net/837e4206-da1a-45cf-85b0-bd991b445cd9/blog/cd64880a-f4b7-4ced-bac5-2da3199cb4bc


Great sites Miss I. Thanks. :037:

Gerard
01-31-2007, 01:18 PM
Blimy Gerard, what's got you riled today? I've always found Miss i very polite on the forum. Probably 95% of us haven't ever met each other but we get along very well as everyone contributes some really interesting articles/pictures and the like. What may be dear to someone's heart may not interest someone else - being polite costs nothing in my book and there's not enough of it about if you ask me.

I couldnt Agree more Jona...I for one was brought up knowing how to treat people with respect and being Polite mate,Yer just cant buy good manners can yer lad.

FKoE
01-31-2007, 02:00 PM
phew..chill Gez Lad ;)

Gerard
01-31-2007, 02:25 PM
phew..chill Gez Lad ;)
Yer alright FKoE.Well Chilled mate.

Ged
01-31-2007, 03:25 PM
It's guiness time again ha ha ha........

So was it James Mackenzie or William as PhilipG said?

and what was it he was holding in his hand again ha ha....no, no ignore that last comment.

(no applauses)

Gerard
01-31-2007, 03:51 PM
It's guiness time again ha ha ha........

So was it James Mackenzie or William as PhilipG said?

and what was it he was holding in his hand again ha ha....no, no ignore that last comment.

(no applauses)

:Colorz_Grey_PDT_24: :Colorz_Grey_PDT_24: ..Now now Ged:Colorz_Grey_PDT_24:

PhilipG
01-31-2007, 03:52 PM
It's guiness time again ha ha ha........

So was it James Mackenzie or William as PhilipG said?

and what was it he was holding in his hand again ha ha....no, no ignore that last comment.

(no applauses)

Joseph Sharples says William.
Tom Slemen says James (& alternates between 2 different spellings of the surname).
Somebody else says James William.
So choose from that lot.

I'd rather believe Joseph Sharples.

BTW - Guinness. :PDT_Aliboronz_24:

PhilipG
01-31-2007, 05:29 PM
In "Liverpool 800" (2006), edited by John Belchem (p354), it says:
(St Andrews Church) "...has recently been rescued through compulsory purchase".

MissInformed
01-31-2007, 07:49 PM
:)
In "Liverpool 800" (2006), edited by John Belchem (p354), it says:
(St Andrews Church) "...has recently been rescued through compulsory purchase".

sorry to sound dumb, but what does compulsory purchase mean philip?
As in rescued? Wish I had the cash to rescue it!

theninesisters
01-31-2007, 07:54 PM
:)

sorry to sound dumb, but what does compulsory purchase mean philip?
As in rescued? Wish I had the cash to rescue it!


It basically means that the Council want the land and rather than offering you a good wedge for it, they offer you a pittance for it and act like bouncers - literally turfing you out of the property before it is demolished.

PhilipG
01-31-2007, 08:00 PM
:)

sorry to sound dumb, but what does compulsory purchase mean philip?
As in rescued? Wish I had the cash to rescue it!

Hopefully, in this case, it means that the Council consider the site (church & grounds) too important to continue without anything being done.

MissInformed
01-31-2007, 08:00 PM
It basically means that the Council want the land and rather than offering you a good wedge for it, they offer you a pittance for it and act like bouncers - literally turfing you out of the property before it is demolished.

does this mean it will be demolished?
I seriously would do everything I could to stop that!

theninesisters
01-31-2007, 08:06 PM
Don't worry - that building is going on my 'Liverpool Buildings at Risk' website when I've got a mo. Why aren't there enough hours in the day! :disgust: :)

Gerard
01-31-2007, 10:52 PM
I would like to apologise to Missinformed for the way I spoke to Her Yesterday,I Dont normally talk to women like that and I wouldn't like anyone Talking to my Wife like that.It was out of order and its been playing on my mind.
Sorry Girl and Good luck..
And No..I haven't been on the Guinness...

MissInformed
02-01-2007, 12:35 PM
I would like to apologise to Missinformed for the way I spoke to Her Yesterday,I Dont normally talk to women like that and I wouldn't like anyone Talking to my Wife like that.It was out of order and its been playing on my mind.
Sorry Girl and Good luck..
And No..I haven't been on the Guinness...

I accept your apology Gerard, just want us all to get on on here :)

marky
02-01-2007, 12:53 PM
The lastest I heard was that legal proceedings were suspended as the owner stated he had sold the property to his father...the funny thing is his father has the same name, so this has confused the Councils' legal team.
I'm not sure if it was concerned with a C.P.O. or an Urgent Works Notice. This was only recently, so some information may still be on the internet...Echo site, maybe.

MissInformed
02-01-2007, 01:50 PM
The lastest I heard was that legal proceedings were suspended as the owner stated he had sold the property to his father...the funny thing is his father has the same name, so this has confused the Councils' legal team.
I'm not sure if it was concerned with a C.P.O. or an Urgent Works Notice. This was only recently, so some information may still be on the internet...Echo site, maybe.

ooohhh that is well worth investigating. cheers marky. :)

Gerard
02-01-2007, 03:31 PM
I accept your apology Gerard, just want us all to get on on here :)

Thank You Missinformed,

marky
02-01-2007, 03:34 PM
Here's a link the Liverpool Echo site...the owner knows all the delaying tactics.
http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/liverpoolecho/news/echonews/tm_headline=2008-deadline-is-looming-for-city-buildings-on-list-of-shame&method=full&objectid=18473532&page=3&siteid=50061-name_page.html

PhilipG
02-01-2007, 04:10 PM
Here's a link the Liverpool Echo site...the owner knows all the delaying tactics.
http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/liverpoolecho/news/echonews/tm_headline=2008-deadline-is-looming-for-city-buildings-on-list-of-shame&method=full&objectid=18473532&page=3&siteid=50061-name_page.html

Thanks for that, Marky.
It's all very interesting, but rather depressing.
All it seems to say about each building is: "Nothing is going to happen at the moment".
The Florrie for instance - work will not start until December.
Why can't they put a roof on it? They've got enough money!
At least a new roof was put on the Scandinavian Hotel.

SIMON HARRISON
02-01-2007, 05:59 PM
Guys, has it ever been suggested that mckenzie and co, including pryramid, should be moved and reenterred, in a more suitable resting place? as previously stated i dont feel these tombs, will figure in developers plans, if / when the ball rolls, ps ,from another location i think this should be done for williamson to., or am i talking rubbish?

MissInformed
02-01-2007, 08:54 PM
Guys, has it ever been suggested that mckenzie and co, including pryramid, should be moved and reenterred, in a more suitable resting place? as previously stated i dont feel these tombs, will figure in developers plans, if / when the ball rolls, ps ,from another location i think this should be done for williamson to., or am i talking rubbish?

no i think you have a good point!
We should have a big plot of land appointed for the final resting place of all of these wonderful characters of Liverpool's past!

theninesisters
02-01-2007, 09:36 PM
With Williamson, don't forget it's not just his grave, he is 'on the top' of the vault with his wife beneath - also buried (and written on the stone is) -

In Memory of Richard Tate
Who departed this life 7th May

1787 In the 51st Year of his Age

Also Ann Tate, the Mother of the

above Richard Tate, died the 6th

Day of October 1791 In the 76th Year

of her Age

Hannah Tate the Wife of RichD Tate

died 29th July 1796 Aged 59 Years.

Also the Remains of Elizabeth

Daughter of Richard and Hannah

Tate, and Wife of Joseph Williamson

of Edge Hill who departed this life

the 3rd Day of October 1822.

Aged 56 Years

Also the Remains of Richard, the

Youngest Son of the above Richard

and Hannah Tate, who died 7 June

1826, Aged 56 Years.

Also the Remains of

Joseph Williamson of Edge Hill

Who died the 1st May 1840

Aged 71 Years

SIMON HARRISON
02-02-2007, 01:16 AM
no i think you have a good point!
We should have a big plot of land appointed for the final resting place of all of these wonderful characters of Liverpool's past!

Dam right missy, or turn st andrews into some kind of heritage centre and rememberance garden, with the pyramid intact, as a legacy to all that lie there

ChrisGeorge
02-02-2007, 02:02 AM
Dam right missy, or turn st andrews into some kind of heritage centre and rememberance garden, with the pyramid intact, as a legacy to all that lie there

Hello Simon

I am at this time writing a Bicentennial History of the St. Andrew's Society of Baltimore, founded in 1806, so I am knee deep in Scotsmen in kilts. I should think there should be some interest among such Scottish societies in seeing that the chapel, garden, and graveyard, are restored and properly maintained.

Chris

SIMON HARRISON
02-02-2007, 05:44 PM
Hiya Chris, would be great to see the place restored, however on close inspection, it just looks to far gone, get yer kilt on when your over and we can protest to the powers that be,dressed as highlanders:celb (23):

ChrisGeorge
02-02-2007, 06:37 PM
Hiya Chris, would be great to see the place restored, however on close inspection, it just looks to far gone, get yer kilt on when your over and we can protest to the powers that be,dressed as highlanders:celb (23):

Hi Simon

That's sad to hear about the poor state of the place. Aye Highland dress and Claymores appear called for! :PDT9

Chris

MissInformed
02-02-2007, 07:09 PM
ooohhh count me in! :celb (23):

SIMON HARRISON
02-02-2007, 09:22 PM
ooohhh count me in! :celb (23):

Bravehearts on Rodney st eh Carrie, or is it just the thought of Chris and i in kilts?:celb (23):

christy
02-02-2007, 10:23 PM
Its not too far gone yet.......
LJMU's plans were very good and left the graves where they were. The refurbished/restored building had been planned to be the main ceremonial entrance into the Uni's 'Quad' area behind, so the green area of the graveyard is not needed as public green space and can be left as is. If you look at the white 'library' behind, it is planned with this in mind and the glazed central part of the elevation would act as the link between the 2 buildings. As the inside of the building is empty, the brick walls behind the sandstone facade could be rebuilt easily as there is nothing else of note while the sunday school on the opposite side is in OK condition as far as refurbs go.

MissInformed
02-04-2007, 11:41 AM
Its not too far gone yet.......
LJMU's plans were very good and left the graves where they were. The refurbished/restored building had been planned to be the main ceremonial entrance into the Uni's 'Quad' area behind, so the green area of the graveyard is not needed as public green space and can be left as is. If you look at the white 'library' behind, it is planned with this in mind and the glazed central part of the elevation would act as the link between the 2 buildings. As the inside of the building is empty, the brick walls behind the sandstone facade could be rebuilt easily as there is nothing else of note while the sunday school on the opposite side is in OK condition as far as refurbs go.

that's quite encouraging.
the trouble with me is, that i love old ruined buildings. Touching them at all seems sacrilege to me, but I know it has to be done or they would fall apart altogether!

SteveFaragher
02-21-2007, 08:14 AM
Apart from Tom Slemen and Frank Carlisle and the growth of an urban myth does anyone know of any pre-80's sources of this story. I was watching a tv programme a couple of years ago (I wish I had noted the details) but the church was a long way from liverpool, down south I think and the local church had exactly the same story...i.e. bloke in tomb seated at table with hand of cards

Howie
02-21-2007, 08:56 AM
Its not too far gone yet.......
LJMU's plans were very good and left the graves where they were. The refurbished/restored building had been planned to be the main ceremonial entrance into the Uni's 'Quad' area behind, so the green area of the graveyard is not needed as public green space and can be left as is. If you look at the white 'library' behind, it is planned with this in mind and the glazed central part of the elevation would act as the link between the 2 buildings. As the inside of the building is empty, the brick walls behind the sandstone facade could be rebuilt easily as there is nothing else of note while the sunday school on the opposite side is in OK condition as far as refurbs go.
My understanding is that LJMU no longer has an interest in acquiring this property having reached the conclusion that it has better things to spend its money on than lining Dr Prasad's pockets.

PhilipG
02-21-2007, 08:59 AM
Apart from Tom Slemen and Frank Carlisle and the growth of an urban myth does anyone know of any pre-80's sources of this story. I was watching a tv programme a couple of years ago (I wish I had noted the details) but the chirch was a long way from liverpool, down south I think and the local church had exactly the same story...i.e. bloke in tomb seated at table with hand of cards

Tom Slemen is not as early as the 1980s, but it was in the 1980s when "Villages of Liverpool" by Derek Whale came out (but offhand, I can't remember if DW mentions the grave).
But I think the story of MacKenzies tomb is even earlier than that.
There's no reason to believe that the story about somebody being buried sitting up is untrue - if you had the money, I'm sure there would have been no problems.

MissInformed
02-21-2007, 01:23 PM
Tom Slemen is not as early as the 1980s, but it was in the 1980s when "Villages of Liverpool" by Derek Whale came out (but offhand, I can't remember if DW mentions the grave).
But I think the story of MacKenzies tomb is even earlier than that.
There's no reason to believe that the story about somebody being buried sitting up is untrue - if you had the money, I'm sure there would have been no problems.

I too, would love to know the original source for this information

Ged
02-21-2007, 02:18 PM
I heard he was playing his cards close to his chest though.

MissInformed
02-21-2007, 05:16 PM
I heard he was playing his cards close to his chest though.

does anyone have any joke books they don't want? I think Ged needs em! hehe:)

SteH
02-21-2007, 07:03 PM
Apart from Tom Slemen and Frank Carlisle and the growth of an urban myth does anyone know of any pre-80's sources of this story. I was watching a tv programme a couple of years ago (I wish I had noted the details) but the church was a long way from liverpool, down south I think and the local church had exactly the same story...i.e. bloke in tomb seated at table with hand of cards

When I went on the shiverpool tour the other week the guides said all the ghostly locations had been corrobrated by a number of witnesses, in what I saw as a side swipe at Tom Slemen. They took us to this tomb and said that a number of years ago (may have been in the 70s) it was broken into and the tomb had to be resecured, and that police reports described a skeleton slumped forward holding a hand of cards.

PhilipG
02-21-2007, 08:24 PM
When I went on the shiverpool tour the other week the guides said all the ghostly locations had been corrobrated by a number of witnesses, in what I saw as a side swipe at Tom Slemen. They took us to this tomb and said that a number of years ago (may have been in the 70s) it was broken into and the tomb had to be resecured, and that police reports described a skeleton slumped forward holding a hand of cards.

On the face of it, that seems to be proof.
Unfortunately it's a pity they said he was holding cards - they wouldn't have survived for so long, would they?
His clothes had rotted, but not the cards?

MissInformed
02-21-2007, 09:10 PM
On the face of it, that seems to be proof.
Unfortunately it's a pity they said he was holding cards - they wouldn't have survived for so long, would they?
His clothes had rotted, but not the cards?

that is an excellent point Philip!

AntiPathos
02-21-2007, 09:36 PM
that is an excellent point Philip!

Even back then could they not have had a coating of some type ? Modern cards have a plastic/resin coating don't they ?

SteH
02-21-2007, 10:07 PM
On the face of it, that seems to be proof.
Unfortunately it's a pity they said he was holding cards - they wouldn't have survived for so long, would they?
His clothes had rotted, but not the cards?

Someone did ask if it was a winning hand and was told they had rotted considerably. No clothes were mentioned though.

SteveFaragher
02-22-2007, 02:55 PM
The tomb break in of the 1970's still sounds a bit of hearsay if you ask me, that shoudl at elast be traceable thorugh the echo I would have thought. The church wasnt derelict then for a start off, did he have a rod up his back to make him sit up,otherwise it would ahve been more of a slump?

how did his hand keep hold of the cards (they didnt have staple guns then), etc etc, the cards would have been card or linen so they would well have rotten,

I think it s a great story, yeah its a great "story" but I'd file it under urban myth, i.e. made up embroidered, and then printed in one of TS's books...... thats enough for now Scully...

Ged
02-22-2007, 03:07 PM
I call a spade a spade but surely in your heart of hearts you must know that as the skin on his fingers rotted away, so the cards would have fell to the floor or am I the only one in the sceptic club (sorry couldn't think of where diamond could fit in there even though the others are bad enough) :shock:

Gerard
02-22-2007, 03:10 PM
I call a spade a spade but surely in your heart of hearts you must know that as the skin on his fingers rotted away, so the cards would have fell to the floor or am I the only one in the sceptic club (sorry couldn't think of where diamond could fit in there even though the others are bad enough) :shock:


Snap..

Ged
02-22-2007, 03:21 PM
You're a diamond geezer Gerard mate. I can feel a Max Bygraves song coming on.....

SteveFaragher
02-23-2007, 02:30 PM
when they opened the tomb did he throw his hand in, fold or twist or stick, I think Tom might know the answer....... it couldn have been texsas hold em as he'd lost his grip on life.... who you gonna call "Mythbusters"

knowhowe
02-27-2007, 01:51 AM
Here's a picture of the pyramid I took from inside St. Andrew's the morning after the fire that gutted it- was it 1982? (May be a year or two out on that). Whatever, I remember it was pretty hairy in there- big holes in the floor and everything still hot!

http://www.bwpics.co.uk/yoliverpool/pyramid.jpg

snoochie boochie
03-23-2007, 12:22 PM
It is actually an ancient moondial containing the corpses of several cats.
It was built by ancient scouse druids, beards ago.

ChrisGeorge
03-23-2007, 12:48 PM
It is actually an ancient moondial containing the corpses of several cats.
It was built by ancient scouse druids, beards ago.

Actually there isn't a dead bloke in there sitting at a table with a winning hand of cards, but the Holy Grail is in there and the Da Vinci Code as well.

Chris

snoochie boochie
03-23-2007, 01:00 PM
I doubt it chris! Or why would you tell me?? You just want me to open it and come out stinking of dead cats dont'cha!

theninesisters
04-10-2007, 12:20 PM
Personally, I hope it is never opened at all. For all the mystery about it, it's still someone's grave - you wouldn't like it if it was one of your family no matter what the interest was.

I remember when we found Joseph Williamson's Grave and we were classed as gravediggers - even though were were only after the stone, we didn't lift it at all! :eek:

ChrisGeorge
04-10-2007, 01:14 PM
Personally, I hope it is never opened at all. For all the mystery about it, it's still someone's grave - you wouldn't like it if it was one of your family no matter what the interest was.

I remember when we found Joseph Williamson's Grave and we were classed as gravediggers - even though were were only after the stone, we didn't lift it at all! :eek:

You probably mean graverobbers don't you, Jona? :eek:

theninesisters
04-10-2007, 01:22 PM
You probably mean graverobbers don't you, Jona? :eek:

Haha did I say that. You know what I mean folks :eek: :)

steveb
04-10-2007, 01:44 PM
Haha did I say that. You know what I mean folks :eek: :)


Ermmmmmmm, yes I knew what you meant.. Personaly, I would like to see
imside just to sort out the mystery once and for all. It is no different to
walking through catacombs....

steveb
04-11-2007, 12:48 PM
What year did he die ?...

steveb
04-12-2007, 07:52 PM
Hi
have asked before, any idea the year McKenzie died.

PhilipG
04-12-2007, 08:38 PM
Hi
have asked before, any idea the year McKenzie died.

Joseph Sharples (a reliable source) says William Mackenzie, who was the railway contractor responsible for the Edge Hill-Lime Street railway tunnel died in 1851, and the "large, plain granite pyramid" is 1868.
Unfortunately, he doesn't say anything else, like what happened to the body for those 17 years (oe even if the body is actually inside the pyramid!).

steveb
04-12-2007, 08:45 PM
Joseph Sharples (a reliable source) says William Mackenzie, who was the railway contractor responsible for the Edge Hill-Lime Street railway tunnel died in 1851, and the "large, plain granite pyramid" is 1868.
Unfortunately, he doesn't say anything else, like what happened to the body for those 17 years (oe even if the body is actually inside the pyramid!).

Thanks Phil
tis so I can check the burial records, as without a date it is a long job :-)

naked lilac
04-13-2007, 12:33 AM
Here's a picture of the pyramid I took from inside St. Andrew's the morning after the fire that gutted it- was it 1982? (May be a year or two out on that). Whatever, I remember it was pretty hairy in there- big holes in the floor and everything still hot!

http://www.bwpics.co.uk/gallery/liverpoolpics/pyramid.jpeg

If no one really knows what is in it.. Maybe Cats , someone stated.?.

Why not do like an ultra sound machine of sorts.. This wouldn't disturb whatever lies inside... and well..... just a thought.... Cool pic..ta

steveb
04-13-2007, 11:14 AM
If no one really knows what is in it.. Maybe Cats , someone stated.?.

Why not do like an ultra sound machine of sorts.. This wouldn't disturb whatever lies inside... and well..... just a thought.... Cool pic..ta


Good idea, but why not just open it up and have a look ?.

naked lilac
04-14-2007, 01:56 AM
Well.. why not? :PDT_Aliboronz_24: I am not there to open it... :034: The mystery remains.... :rolleyes:

steveb
04-14-2007, 11:44 AM
Well.. why not? :PDT_Aliboronz_24: I am not there to open it... :034: The mystery remains.... :rolleyes:

Sure does. As the site is privately owned and no body is sure who actualy
ownsmit now, used to be a Doctor Prasad, who say's he sold it to his dad
also Doctor Prasad. Liverpool council want the place, but as above are not sure who is the rightfull owner. It used to be a Presbyterian church until
around 1975, so maybe they can shed light on the mystery

DaisyChains
07-31-2007, 09:23 AM
Sure does. As the site is privately owned and no body is sure who actualy
ownsmit now, used to be a Doctor Prasad, who say's he sold it to his dad
also Doctor Prasad. Liverpool council want the place, but as above are not sure who is the rightfull owner. It used to be a Presbyterian church until
around 1975, so maybe they can shed light on the mystery


Any more news on this site?
I heard through the grapevine the other day that something is happening with it. Not sure what though.
As I have said before,I can't see them wanting to keep a graveyard next to a set of apartments,. or a Uni building....

I would definitely try and start a campaign if the pyramid was threatened with demolition!

Just found this link, but it's from 2003!

http://ihbc.org.uk/context_archive/78/liverpool/stonard.htm

DaisyChains
07-31-2007, 10:52 AM
I emailed the man in the article John Stonard and he emailed me back just now....he has left that position now...

I am led to believe that after a prolonged dispute it was recently ruled that Liverpool City Council had legally gained title of the church from the Dr who had owned the building for a number of years. The Council had set aside £200,000 to undertake basic repairs and make the building safe while potential uses were sought. Beyond that I'm afraid I can't help. The Buildings at Risk officer (Chris Griffiths) or colleagues in the City Council's Conservation team may be able to help further. They can be contacted via Liverpool Direct on 0151 233 3000

PhilipG
07-31-2007, 11:01 AM
I emailed the man in the article John Stonard and he emailed me back just now....he has left that position now...

I am led to believe that after a prolonged dispute it was recently ruled that Liverpool City Council had legally gained title of the church from the Dr who had owned the building for a number of years. The Council had set aside £200,000 to undertake basic repairs and make the building safe while potential uses were sought. Beyond that I'm afraid I can't help. The Buildings at Risk officer (Chris Griffiths) or colleagues in the City Council's Conservation team may be able to help further. They can be contacted via Liverpool Direct on 0151 233 3000

Mystery solved!
It's a Tardis. :PDT11

DaisyChains
07-31-2007, 11:04 AM
Mystery solved!
It's a Tardis. :PDT11

hehe :unibrow:

Ged
07-31-2007, 11:09 AM
Ha ha.

RoddersUK
07-31-2007, 11:45 AM
I used to work for TACP Design, architects in Liverpool, and Dr Prasad was our client. We looked at a number of options for him including residential and offices and even adding a further level on top.
TACP went bust in February 2001. One of the factors was the legal costs arising from suing the Dr for unpaid bills. I had hear rumors that the property had been given to TACP as payment but I'm not sure how true it was.
The building was at one time going to be part of the JMU library that has been built behind it to line through exactly.

DaisyChains
07-31-2007, 12:13 PM
I used to work for TACP Design, architects in Liverpool, and Dr Prasad was our client. We looked at a number of options for him including residential and offices and even adding a further level on top.
TACP went bust in February 2001. One of the factors was the legal costs arising from suing the Dr for unpaid bills. I had hear rumors that the property had been given to TACP as payment but I'm not sure how true it was.
The building was at one time going to be part of the JMU library that has been built behind it to line through exactly.

Brilliant bit of info! Thanks for sharing.
Was there ever any mention as to what would happen to the graveyard?

RoddersUK
07-31-2007, 12:16 PM
As far as i remember it was to remain untouched.
We just looked at putting new floors into the church.

The most recent planning application i can find is from March 2003 and it still lists Dr Prasad as the owner but it was withdrawn.

Application number 03L/0965

DaisyChains
07-31-2007, 01:38 PM
As far as i remember it was to remain untouched.
We just looked at putting new floors into the church.

The most recent planning application i can find is from March 2003 and it still lists Dr Prasad as the owner but it was withdrawn.

Application number 03L/0965

brilliant detective work!

geoffrey
07-31-2007, 02:49 PM
I thought I'd read this story from a link on this site so there might be discussion on another thread:

A JMU spokeswoman said plans for the church were at an early stage but could form part of the university’s £110m, five-year development plan.

She said: “We have aspirations to redevelop the building and bring it back into use as a gateway to our Mount Pleasant site. It would be for staff and students. But there would be a public aspect as well.”

Today’s news follows a lengthy legal battle with former owner Dr Amoolya Prasad to gain control of the city centre church.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/liverpool-campaigns/regeneration-of-liverpool/2007/07/05/victory-in-fight-for-church-100252-19406705/

ghughesarch
07-31-2007, 03:39 PM
Apart from Tom Slemen and Frank Carlisle and the growth of an urban myth does anyone know of any pre-80's sources of this story. I was watching a tv programme a couple of years ago (I wish I had noted the details) but the church was a long way from liverpool, down south I think and the local church had exactly the same story...i.e. bloke in tomb seated at table with hand of cards

Mad Jack Fuller at Brightling in Sussex:

http://johnmadjackfuller.homestead.com/Pyramid.html

and a similar tale is told of quite a few other tombs.

DaisyChains
08-02-2007, 08:27 PM
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/server/show/ConBar.6059

RoddersUK
08-02-2007, 10:02 PM
The Liverpool Vision web site has a development update document no. 14 you can download. It lists the current status of all developments in the city centre. The church is G8 on the map and it has LCC as the owner but no plans to do anything with it.

DaisyChains
08-04-2007, 09:52 AM
Mad Jack Fuller at Brightling in Sussex:

http://johnmadjackfuller.homestead.com/Pyramid.html

and a similar tale is told of quite a few other tombs.

thank god for these eccentrics!
they make history so much more interesting!:)

SteveFaragher
08-07-2007, 03:34 PM
See I was right although the one I saw on TV did say that the occupant was playing or eating a toblerone. I wish people would jsut stick to the researched facts and not dress these things up like the friggin x files.

queentutti
08-07-2007, 06:54 PM
Me and my friend visited this site as part of our research. We are a paranormal investigation company based in the northwest. We visited this site late at night and also during the day. The council opened the grounds up for us so we could take photographs and so that my friend who is a spiritualist medium could get closer to the tomb and see if he could pick anything up.

DaisyChains
08-07-2007, 07:27 PM
Me and my friend visited this site as part of our research. We are a paranormal investigation company based in the northwest. We visited this site late at night and also during the day. The council opened the grounds up for us so we could take photographs and so that my friend who is a spiritualist medium could get closer to the tomb and see if he could pick anything up.

Get some pics up please!!!!!!!!! :unibrow:

steveb
08-07-2007, 08:03 PM
Get some pics up please!!!!!!!!! :unibrow:

Indeed yes, wonder did they look inside..

snappel
08-09-2007, 03:59 PM
Me and my friend visited this site as part of our research. We are a paranormal investigation company based in the northwest. We visited this site late at night and also during the day. The council opened the grounds up for us so we could take photographs and so that my friend who is a spiritualist medium could get closer to the tomb and see if he could pick anything up.

Sounds like rubbish to me. I slept in there on the ground right by the tomb once and nothing happened.

DaisyChains
08-09-2007, 07:06 PM
Any pics Snappel?

queentutti
08-10-2007, 08:16 PM
I will upload some pics in the next few days as they on another pc. Many people have probably spent a night in there and nothing has happened probably due to their lack of ability being the main reason.

SteveFaragher
08-15-2007, 01:25 PM
Me and my friend visited this site as part of our research. We are a paranormal investigation company based in the northwest. We visited this site late at night and also during the day. The council opened the grounds up for us so we could take photographs and so that my friend who is a spiritualist medium could get closer to the tomb and see if he could pick anything up.

I picked up nettle rash

steveb
08-15-2007, 02:49 PM
:)
I picked up nettle rash


Better than me all I picked up was a soggy bum and the well
known English lurgy, " a stinking cold ". :shock:

DaisyChains
10-09-2007, 08:26 AM
Anyone have any news on this plot of land at all?

johnreppion
12-31-2007, 08:05 PM
Very old thread I know but did anyone ever get to the bottom of the original source (or first printed account) of McKenzie being entombed upright with a hand of cards? I always thought it was a Slemen-ism myself.

That said, it looks like similar rumors seem to accompany other pyramid shaped tombs elsewhere. I wonder why.

I was told on a walking tour of the area back in Autumn 2007 that the Uni are still supposed to be building on the site but leaving the tombs untouched and keeping some of the old frontage. Don't know how true it is though.

lierbag
01-18-2008, 11:17 PM
I'm wondering if this is our old friend 'urban legend', having been inspired by the following:

'Well, Mr Garrett,' said Mrs Simpson, who had not yet resumed her work, and was looking at the fire thoughtfully, 'I shall tell you the story. You will please keep it to yourself, if you don't mind? Thank you. Now it is just this. I had an old uncle, a Dr Rant. Perhaps you may have heard of him. Not that he was a distinguished man, but from the odd way he chose to be buried.'

'I rather think I have seen the name in some guidebook.'

'That would be it,' said Miss Simpson. 'He left directions--horrid old man!--that he was to be put, sitting at a table in his ordinary clothes, in a brick room that he'd had made underground in a field near his house. Of course the country people say he's been seen about there in his old black cloak.'

M. R. James : 'The Tractate Middoth' 1911

Case closed?

johnreppion
01-20-2008, 02:44 PM
I'm wondering if this is our old friend 'urban legend', having been inspired by the following:

'Well, Mr Garrett,' said Mrs Simpson, who had not yet resumed her work, and was looking at the fire thoughtfully, 'I shall tell you the story. You will please keep it to yourself, if you don't mind? Thank you. Now it is just this. I had an old uncle, a Dr Rant. Perhaps you may have heard of him. Not that he was a distinguished man, but from the odd way he chose to be buried.'

'I rather think I have seen the name in some guidebook.'

'That would be it,' said Miss Simpson. 'He left directions--horrid old man!--that he was to be put, sitting at a table in his ordinary clothes, in a brick room that he'd had made underground in a field near his house. Of course the country people say he's been seen about there in his old black cloak.'

M. R. James : 'The Tractate Middoth' 1911

Case closed?A very interesting connection indeed. Cheers lierbag.

ChrisGeorge
01-20-2008, 03:12 PM
Hi lierbag and researchwriter

Such folk tales have a tendency to migrate from one area to another and to morph as they do so. It's often very difficult to determine which came first or exactly how far back the different variations of such a tale go.

All the best

Chris

DaisyChains
01-20-2008, 04:51 PM
I was told on a walking tour of the area back in Autumn 2007 that the Uni are still supposed to be building on the site but leaving the tombs untouched and keeping some of the old frontage. Don't know how true it is though.

I wonder how true this is.
I don't think they would want a graveyard at the front of any building.
(Of course I don't want them to touch it!)

Does anyone know of any ancestors of McKenzie?

Cadfael
01-20-2008, 05:59 PM
I wonder how true this is.
I don't think they would want a graveyard at the front of any building.
(Of course I don't want them to touch it!)

Does anyone know of any ancestors of McKenzie?

Is it still consecrated ground? If so they wouldn't be able to touch anything.

DaisyChains
01-20-2008, 06:43 PM
Is it still consecrated ground? If so they wouldn't be able to touch anything.

In theory!!:shock:

ghughesarch
01-21-2008, 02:08 PM
I'm wondering if this is our old friend 'urban legend', having been inspired by the following:

'Well, Mr Garrett,' said Mrs Simpson, who had not yet resumed her work, and was looking at the fire thoughtfully, 'I shall tell you the story. You will please keep it to yourself, if you don't mind? Thank you. Now it is just this. I had an old uncle, a Dr Rant. Perhaps you may have heard of him. Not that he was a distinguished man, but from the odd way he chose to be buried.'

'I rather think I have seen the name in some guidebook.'

'That would be it,' said Miss Simpson. 'He left directions--horrid old man!--that he was to be put, sitting at a table in his ordinary clothes, in a brick room that he'd had made underground in a field near his house. Of course the country people say he's been seen about there in his old black cloak.'

M. R. James : 'The Tractate Middoth' 1911

Case closed?

I'm pretty sure that both Mad Jack Fuller (referred to upthread) and James Tillie:

http://www.follytowers.com/pentillie.html

had entered local legend in Sussex and Cornwall respectively, and been published by the late nineteenth century, before M R James' story was written. Fuller, incidentally, was actually buried in the usual way under the floor of his pyramid.

PhilipG
01-21-2008, 03:53 PM
I'm pretty sure that both Mad Jack Fuller (referred to upthread) and James Tillie:

http://www.follytowers.com/pentillie.html

had entered local legend in Sussex and Cornwall respectively, and been published by the late nineteenth century, before M R James' story was written. Fuller, incidentally, was actually buried in the usual way under the floor of his pyramid.

That's a good point.
Was it a legal requirement to bury someone "six feet under"?

DaisyChains
01-23-2008, 10:04 AM
Is there any evidence that anybody has tried to look inside the tomb?
I remember somebody telling me workmen tried to over 10 years ago but it some sort of snag.

Cadfael
01-23-2008, 10:45 AM
Is there any evidence that anybody has tried to look inside the tomb?
I remember somebody telling me workmen tried to over 10 years ago but it some sort of snag.

Personally, no one should be allowed - just because it is a fancy tomb doesn't give anyone the right to open it up. I wouldn't like it if it was a family relative and I suppose the rest of us wouldn't either.

DaisyChains
01-23-2008, 12:49 PM
I quite agree!

I still wonder if there are any living relatives.

kellyEvans
01-23-2008, 06:53 PM
what book is this from? my mate scanned it from a book in kenny library ages ago

DaisyChains
01-26-2008, 10:19 AM
what book is this from? my mate scanned it from a book in kenny library ages ago

That's interesting!
I have consulted a Liverpool historian on the ssubject of where this myth originates...hopefully I will be able to report back quite soon.

johnreppion
01-28-2008, 12:53 AM
what book is this from? my mate scanned it from a book in kenny library ages agoVery interesting...

DaisyChains
01-28-2008, 08:24 PM
Very interesting...

I hope it will be!

DaisyChains
02-01-2008, 12:52 PM
Well, a bit of a damp squib I'm afraid.

I consulted the ever powerful oracle of Liverpool knowledge.....Mr Richard Whittington Egan.
He has never heard of the story!!!
He has never heard of McKenzie either.

He consulted Picton's Memorials of Liverpool too, and there's nothing in there.

My thoughts are that, if RWE has never heard of it, it must be a fairly recent story. Which makes me think it's a hoax.

ChrisGeorge
02-01-2008, 01:19 PM
Hi DaisyChains

The story doesn't have to be a hoax if it is a bit of folk lore or a popular myth that somehow arose. Though I agree that the fact that the erudite Mr Whittington Egan had not heard of the story does tell us something.

All the best

Chris

PhilipG
02-01-2008, 01:38 PM
Was it (Is it?) a legal requirement to bury a body under six feet of earth?
The more I think about it, the more I think it was.
If only for reasons of health.

ChrisGeorge
02-01-2008, 01:44 PM
Was it (Is it?) a legal requirement to bury a body under six feet of earth?
The more I think about it, the more I think it was.
If only for reasons of health.


Hi Philip

There's some interesting discussion of this tradition here at straightdope.com:

Why is "six feet under" the standard depth for burial? (http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mburial.html)

Chris

DaisyChains
02-01-2008, 06:50 PM
Hi DaisyChains

The story doesn't have to be a hoax if it is a bit of folk lore or a popular myth that somehow arose. Though I agree that the fact that the erudite Mr Whittington Egan had not heard of the story does tell us something.

All the best

Chris

Hi Chris

I agree, it doesn't mean it's definitely not a hoax just because RWE hasn't heard of it, but it seems odd that a man who has such a vast knowledge of the oddities of our city hasn't heard of the myth.

DaisyChains
03-10-2008, 08:04 PM
Sunday

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/Carrie132/StAndrewsChurchYardRodneyStreetMarc.jpg

danensis
03-10-2008, 08:17 PM
Hi Philip

There's some interesting discussion of this tradition here at straightdope.com:

Why is "six feet under" the standard depth for burial? (http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mburial.html)

Chris

That gives an American perspective. In the UK you can bury people anywhere you want, as long as you own the land, and you don't bury more than two people. The requirements are that it is not waterlogged ground, it is not near a spring or well, or near a watercourse. You may not erect a headstone without planning permission. It has been suggested that a burial in the garden may lower the value of the property.

I investigated all this when my wife died, as I wanted to bury her in our orchard. We didn't even use a funeral director, the gravedigger collected her body in the back of his van, and his lads helped lower her in.

Unfortunately since then human remains have been deemed to be hazardous waste, and new regulations apply.

johnreppion
03-10-2008, 09:43 PM
Sunday

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/Carrie132/StAndrewsChurchYardRodneyStreetMarc.jpgLovely shot. It looks like an old photograph rather than a fresh digital image.

DaisyChains
04-02-2008, 08:39 PM
I was watching 'Liverpool Unravelled' yesterday. (The Frank Carlyle DVD)

He talks about McKenzie, and also shows an old photo of a man I assume they are saying is McKenzie.

Does anyone know if there are any pics of him?

I am going to try and get in touch with Frank Carlyle to ask, if anyone knows where I can contact him, much appreciated.

PhilipG
04-02-2008, 10:29 PM
Didn't he die in 1851?
That's rather early for photography.

Cadfael
04-02-2008, 10:36 PM
Didn't he die in 1851?
That's rather early for photography.

Indeed - the supposed photo of Joseph Williamson was also ruled out seeing as Williamson died in 1840 and 'portrate' pictures only came about in the 1860's (or you would have to sit perfectly still for 4 hours!)

lindylou
04-02-2008, 11:16 PM
I was watching 'Liverpool Unravelled' yesterday. (The Frank Carlyle DVD)

He talks about McKenzie, and also shows an old photo of a man I assume they are saying is McKenzie.

Does anyone know if there are any pics of him?

I am going to try and get in touch with Frank Carlyle to ask, if anyone knows where I can contact him, much appreciated.

The best thing to do is leave a message for him at Radio Merseyside.
He's on the radio once a week - usually on Tuesday mornings I think. he takes phone calls.

John(Zappa)
04-02-2008, 11:37 PM
I was watching 'Liverpool Unravelled' yesterday. (The Frank Carlyle DVD)

He talks about McKenzie, and also shows an old photo of a man I assume they are saying is McKenzie.

Does anyone know if there are any pics of him?

I am going to try and get in touch with Frank Carlyle to ask, if anyone knows where I can contact him, much appreciated.

I will try and get Miss Z to answer your questions as she knows him very well.
Remind me in the shoutbox:PDT11

fortinian
04-03-2008, 12:11 AM
Does anyone know if there is an inscription on the tomb?


I am frustrated by the lack of information so I have decided to do my own research. This took me about an hour to pull together and a bit longer to sort out into some sort of shape. Luckily, because I am a student I have access to numerous archives and online newspapers. These are my findings.

We could perhaps begin by verifing these questions:

- was his name was William McKenzie (and not James as some websites have it)
- was his date of death was 1851 or 1868
- was his is buried alone above the ground ?
- was there a hint of gambling or diabolical shenannigans?
- is Tom Slemens widely published story accurate, or at least fitting to to the mans character?

With this information we could begin scouring the record office, Liverpool Mercury etc... to find any obituries to him. Surely a man able to erect such an ornate tomb would merit a mention in the paper of the day.

Using the wonders of the internet and the access to archives I have I discovered:

That in Pictons 'MEMORIALS OF LIVERPOOL, it mentions that he was an "eminent railway contractor" (p. 279)

Pevesner, in his book on archetecture of Lancashire, when describing St Andrews Chruch, Rodney Street, mentions the tomb and says McKenzie died in 1851 and the tomb was built in 1868 - but is effectively a paraphrase of Picton.

If we look up William McKenzie on Google we are given a Wikipedia article about the railway contractor with link to ODNB. Wikipedia says that the railway contractor was 'William MacKenzie' famous in Paris and London.

Oxford Dictionary of National Biography has a long article on "Mackenzie, William (1794–1851)".
From reading it it seems he was hugely successful but ony lived in Liverpool from 1831 onwards (I'm sure Slemen gives an earlier date, but I do not have his account to hand). He apparently lived in number 74 Grove Street and "began to improve it extensively, no doubt influenced by the fashionable standards of Paris."

The last paragraph is interesting and explains why Mackenzie died in 1851, but his tomb was not erected until 1868.

"Although Mackenzie continued to conduct business until his death on 29 October 1851 he never fully recovered his health, having lost his left foot in 1850. He died at his home, 74 Grove Street, Liverpool. Both his marriages were childless, and although his widow continued to live in the family house until her death in 1867, he left almost his entire estate of £341,848 to his youngest brother, Edward, including his interest in the Orléans to Bordeaux contracts, which Edward completed. Edward went on to die a millionaire. In 1868 he erected a monument to William Mackenzie at the Scottish church of St Andrew, Rodney Street, Liverpool, where he had been buried." - Oxford DNB, by Mike Chrimes of the Institution of Civil Engineers.


A deeper search of archived newspapers for 'Edward MacKenzie' in the year '1868' reveals that listed in the, Glasgow Herald (Glasgow, Scotland), Monday, February 3, 1868; Issue 8762:

MUNIFICENT GIFT to a SCOTCH CHURCH IN LIVERPOOL
From the Liverpool Mercury: -
It details that the Scotch Church in Rodney Street was cleared of a huge debt that had been hanging over it by the munificence of... Edward Mackenzie. He apparently gifted £1100 to the church after parishoners could only gather £600 in subscriptions. It also mentions that it was probably because of his brother being buried there.

The same article appears in ECCLESIASTICAL, The Belfast News-Letter (Belfast, Ireland), Monday, February 10, 1868; Issue 34064. Both articles are apparently copied from the Liverpool Mercury article of the same type.


So we may need to re-name this thread, the spelling in original records seems to be William Mackenzie. With the 'Mac' prefix and a small 'k'. We may also have to double check with Tom Slemens version to see if his dates match.

The logical conclusion of this is that when William Makenzie died in 1851 his body was interred in the ground. i.e. he was buried in the graveyard of St Andrews Chuch. Then in 1868 his brother, whilst donating a substantial sum to the recovery of the Church, built the tomb on top of the grave as a memorial to his brother and his sister-in-law who died a year previously. Probably without disturbing his remains at all.

It seems Mackenzie's soul does not lie above the ground in the pyramid. He was simply buried and the pyramid placed on top of him without his knowledge - or concent!
Either that or they had a rotting body sitting in the church yard for seventeen years!

Intrestingly, I cannot actually find an obituary for William Mackenzie himself.

EDIT: Actually a little bit more searching uncovers a mention in;
Births, Deaths, Marriages and Obituaries
Liverpool Mercury etc (Liverpool, England), Friday, October 31, 1851; Issue 2341:

Oct 29 at his house 74 Grove-Street, ages 57, Wm. Mackenzie. Esq. civil engineer and contractor for public works.

Not a very grand obituary, but still a noteworthy one.

Also: I believe the story given here is Tom Slemens http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=12155

I searched "The Diary of William Mackenzie, the First International Railway Contractor", partly available free from Google books (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vpm55d6FoqcC&pg=PA531&dq=william+mckenzie+tomb+liverpool&sig=dNXpLsHe4h-G0v1OmcA-Ckp182M#PPA588,M1) for the names mentioned in this story 'MacGowan' and 'Madison'. I could not find any mention of these names. If these guys were such close friends of William Mackenzie, then why do their names not appear in his diary?

It seems that William Mackenzie was never called James, never spelt his name McKenzie, never got buried above the ground and didn't even have the pyramid tomb built himself.

Now can somone e-mail this to Tom Slemen and all other bollock-writers of Liverpools history?

PhilipG
04-03-2008, 12:36 AM
You answer all your own questions.
You know the date of death and where he is buried and the date of the tomb.
The Record Office have newspapers, so you can look for an obituary.
You know enough to find the burial record, and you could go through the GRO Index to get the reference number for his death certificate.
He died after March 1851 so you'll find him in the 1851 Census.

fortinian
04-03-2008, 12:43 AM
I know I answered my own questions... that was kind of the point of the post...

Sorry I didn't make it clearer. I just wanted to show how I took the basic questions, answered them and drew a likely conclusion from the evidence that I found through searching old newspapers online.

They were rhetorical questions, sort of like at the beginning of an essay.

shytalk
04-03-2008, 03:24 AM
fortinian. You must remember that Tom Slemen never lets the truth hinder a money spinning yarn.

ChrisGeorge
04-03-2008, 08:34 AM
Didn't he die in 1851?
That's rather early for photography.

There were studio portraits done in the 1840's. Edgar Allan Poe died in October 1849 and there are a number of photographs of him. See

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=%22Edgar+Allan+Poe%22&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

Chris

ChrisGeorge
04-03-2008, 08:43 AM
Oxford Dictionary of National Biography has a long article on "Mackenzie, William (1794–1851)".
From reading it it seems he was hugely successful but ony lived in Liverpool from 1831 onwards (I'm sure Slemen gives an earlier date, but I do not have his account to hand). He apparently lived in number 74 Grove Street and "began to improve it extensively, no doubt influenced by the fashionable standards of Paris."

The last paragraph is interesting and explains why Mackenzie died in 1851, but his tomb was not erected until 1868.

"Although Mackenzie continued to conduct business until his death on 29 October 1851 he never fully recovered his health, having lost his left foot in 1850. He died at his home, 74 Grove Street, Liverpool. Both his marriages were childless, and although his widow continued to live in the family house until her death in 1867, he left almost his entire estate of £341,848 to his youngest brother, Edward, including his interest in the Orléans to Bordeaux contracts, which Edward completed. Edward went on to die a millionaire. In 1868 he erected a monument to William Mackenzie at the Scottish church of St Andrew, Rodney Street, Liverpool, where he had been buried." - Oxford DNB, by Mike Chrimes of the Institution of Civil Engineers.
. . . It seems Mackenzie's soul does not lie above the ground in the pyramid. He was simply buried and the pyramid placed on top of him without his knowledge - or concent!
Either that or they had a rotting body sitting in the church yard for seventeen years!

"In 1868 he [Mackenzie's brother, Edward] erected a monument to William Mackenzie at the Scottish church of St Andrew, Rodney Street, Liverpool, where he had been buried."

There's a difference between a monument and a tomb. From the above it sounds as if the pyramid could be just a memorial to honor Mackenzie's memory not a tomb. Thus, he may not be buried in it, let alone his corpse sitting inside holding a deck of cards. :rolleyes:

Chris

snappel
04-03-2008, 10:04 AM
I think perhaps sometimes people like to spice things up too much, and before long a rumour or folklore becomes widespread 'fact'. It's like all these 9/11 and Diana conspiracies - maybe people are so desparate to read more exciting 'truths' into things to make up for a lack of excitement in their own lives.

Whatever, I find the research above quite fascinating, and to me it sounds the most plausible and logical conclusion: Mackenzie died in 1851, was buried, and then the 'tomb' built as a memorial.

Ged
04-03-2008, 11:11 AM
Well done then Fortinian. :PDT11

DaisyChains
04-03-2008, 12:33 PM
Does anyone know if there is an inscription on the tomb?


I am frustrated by the lack of information so I have decided to do my own research. This took me about an hour to pull together and a bit longer to sort out into some sort of shape. Luckily, because I am a student I have access to numerous archives and online newspapers. These are my findings.

We could perhaps begin by verifing these questions:

- was his name was William McKenzie (and not James as some websites have it)
- was his date of death was 1851 or 1868
- was his is buried alone above the ground ?
- was there a hint of gambling or diabolical shenannigans?
- is Tom Slemens widely published story accurate, or at least fitting to to the mans character?

With this information we could begin scouring the record office, Liverpool Mercury etc... to find any obituries to him. Surely a man able to erect such an ornate tomb would merit a mention in the paper of the day.

Using the wonders of the internet and the access to archives I have I discovered:

That in Pictons 'MEMORIALS OF LIVERPOOL, it mentions that he was an "eminent railway contractor" (p. 279)

Pevesner, in his book on archetecture of Lancashire, when describing St Andrews Chruch, Rodney Street, mentions the tomb and says McKenzie died in 1851 and the tomb was built in 1868 - but is effectively a paraphrase of Picton.

If we look up William McKenzie on Google we are given a Wikipedia article about the railway contractor with link to ODNB. Wikipedia says that the railway contractor was 'William MacKenzie' famous in Paris and London.

Oxford Dictionary of National Biography has a long article on "Mackenzie, William (1794–1851)".
From reading it it seems he was hugely successful but ony lived in Liverpool from 1831 onwards (I'm sure Slemen gives an earlier date, but I do not have his account to hand). He apparently lived in number 74 Grove Street and "began to improve it extensively, no doubt influenced by the fashionable standards of Paris."

The last paragraph is interesting and explains why Mackenzie died in 1851, but his tomb was not erected until 1868.

"Although Mackenzie continued to conduct business until his death on 29 October 1851 he never fully recovered his health, having lost his left foot in 1850. He died at his home, 74 Grove Street, Liverpool. Both his marriages were childless, and although his widow continued to live in the family house until her death in 1867, he left almost his entire estate of £341,848 to his youngest brother, Edward, including his interest in the Orléans to Bordeaux contracts, which Edward completed. Edward went on to die a millionaire. In 1868 he erected a monument to William Mackenzie at the Scottish church of St Andrew, Rodney Street, Liverpool, where he had been buried." - Oxford DNB, by Mike Chrimes of the Institution of Civil Engineers.


A deeper search of archived newspapers for 'Edward MacKenzie' in the year '1868' reveals that listed in the, Glasgow Herald (Glasgow, Scotland), Monday, February 3, 1868; Issue 8762:

MUNIFICENT GIFT to a SCOTCH CHURCH IN LIVERPOOL
From the Liverpool Mercury: -
It details that the Scotch Church in Rodney Street was cleared of a huge debt that had been hanging over it by the munificence of... Edward Mackenzie. He apparently gifted £1100 to the church after parishoners could only gather £600 in subscriptions. It also mentions that it was probably because of his brother being buried there.

The same article appears in ECCLESIASTICAL, The Belfast News-Letter (Belfast, Ireland), Monday, February 10, 1868; Issue 34064. Both articles are apparently copied from the Liverpool Mercury article of the same type.


So we may need to re-name this thread, the spelling in original records seems to be William Mackenzie. With the 'Mac' prefix and a small 'k'. We may also have to double check with Tom Slemens version to see if his dates match.

The logical conclusion of this is that when William Makenzie died in 1851 his body was interred in the ground. i.e. he was buried in the graveyard of St Andrews Chuch. Then in 1868 his brother, whilst donating a substantial sum to the recovery of the Church, built the tomb on top of the grave as a memorial to his brother and his sister-in-law who died a year previously. Probably without disturbing his remains at all.

It seems Mackenzie's soul does not lie above the ground in the pyramid. He was simply buried and the pyramid placed on top of him without his knowledge - or concent!
Either that or they had a rotting body sitting in the church yard for seventeen years!

Intrestingly, I cannot actually find an obituary for William Mackenzie himself.

EDIT: Actually a little bit more searching uncovers a mention in;
Births, Deaths, Marriages and Obituaries
Liverpool Mercury etc (Liverpool, England), Friday, October 31, 1851; Issue 2341:

Oct 29 at his house 74 Grove-Street, ages 57, Wm. Mackenzie. Esq. civil engineer and contractor for public works.

Not a very grand obituary, but still a noteworthy one.

Also: I believe the story given here is Tom Slemens http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=12155

I searched "The Diary of William Mackenzie, the First International Railway Contractor", partly available free from Google books (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vpm55d6FoqcC&pg=PA531&dq=william+mckenzie+tomb+liverpool&sig=dNXpLsHe4h-G0v1OmcA-Ckp182M#PPA588,M1) for the names mentioned in this story 'MacGowan' and 'Madison'. I could not find any mention of these names. If these guys were such close friends of William Mackenzie, then why do their names not appear in his diary?

It seems that William Mackenzie was never called James, never spelt his name McKenzie, never got buried above the ground and didn't even have the pyramid tomb built himself.

Now can somone e-mail this to Tom Slemen and all other bollock-writers of Liverpools history?

This is absolutely fascinating!
Thanks so much, this is something I have been meaning to do for so long.:handclap:

AntiPathos
04-03-2008, 01:26 PM
Kudos to Fortinian. Found stuff in a few hours which others hadn't in twenty years...

fortinian
04-03-2008, 01:47 PM
The stuff I found wasn't particularly 'hidden' or 'lost'. So much stuff is online these days that it's quite easy to do specific searches across vast spectrums of documents from all over the country - an idea that probably seemed fantastical twenty years ago.

I've noticed that many Histories of Liverpool seem to be built on... Histories of Liverpool, i.e. taking the words of previous writes as 'fact', without any actual original research.

It is for reasons such as this that I give local 'historians' (or people who claim to be) a bit of a wide berth. Anyone can pick up William Moss, James Stonehouse, Richard Wittington-Egan, Derek Whale, Mike Royden et al and quote it verbitam - doesn't make you a historian.

snappel
04-03-2008, 01:59 PM
I totally agree. Also, some people will believe what they want to believe, and discard things that go against it. There's a name for doing that, and I can't remember what it is.

Sure, it'd be great if the mummy/tomb story was true, but I'd rather have fact over folklore.

Thanks again for sharing your finds.

PhilipG
04-03-2008, 02:41 PM
The stuff I found wasn't particularly 'hidden' or 'lost'. So much stuff is online these days that it's quite easy to do specific searches across vast spectrums of documents from all over the country - an idea that probably seemed fantastical twenty years ago.

I've noticed that many Histories of Liverpool seem to be built on... Histories of Liverpool, i.e. taking the words of previous writes as 'fact', without any actual original research.

It is for reasons such as this that I give local 'historians' (or people who claim to be) a bit of a wide berth. Anyone can pick up William Moss, James Stonehouse, Richard Wittington-Egan, Derek Whale, Mike Royden et al and quote it verbitam - doesn't make you a historian.


Most stuff on-line isn't to be relied upon.
Who and where are the sources?
Wikipedia (good name, because it is Wicked) is a compilation of anonymous entries which anybody can alter.
It's frightening how it's becoming the first source for most people.

Which Local Historians do you give a wide berth to?
At least you know who to blame if a particular book has a named author.
None of us are perfect.

I like to find original sources, and will never repeat what somebody else has said without checking it for myself.

fortinian
04-03-2008, 03:29 PM
Most stuff on-line isn't to be relied upon.
Who and where are the sources?
Wikipedia (good name, because it is Wicked) is a compilation of anonymous entries which anybody can alter.
It's frightening how it's becoming the first source for most people.

Which Local Historians do you give a wide berth to?
At least you know who to blame if a particular book has a named author.
None of us are perfect.

I like to find original sources, and will never repeat what somebody else has said without checking it for myself.

The sources I used were the:

Oxford Dictionary of National Biography - a subscription only service that can be accesed using a Liverpool City Library Card. It contains the Biographys of Britains greatest men and women, written by experts in their field - most who are respected academics.

19th Century British Library Newspapers - again a subscription only service. It contains scanned pdf's of many newspapers from around Britain. I.e. electronic facsimiles of the actual newspapers themselves. Because they are in pdf format I can conduct word searches which look for the shape of the letters that appear in the search. For example I searched 'William McKenzie, 1851' and found nothing. I then searched 'William Mackenzie, 1851' and found the newspapers that mentioned him. The software is so sensitive that even the slightly different shape of McKenzie and Mackenzie can be detected.

If you want to verfiy what I said at the original sources then feel free to check:

http://www.oxforddnb.com/
http://gale.cengage.com/

If you have access then feel free to check my findings.

I don't understand why you are so defensive, there are many good historians but there is also a significant number who earn their crust from re-hashing the work of others and undertaking little historial research themselves. If I have offended you, I apologise.

PhilipG
04-03-2008, 07:25 PM
I don't understand why you think I'm defensive.

I don't want to argue with you.
I've been reading microfilms all afternoon.

johnreppion
04-03-2008, 11:53 PM
You've done a cracking job on that one Fortinian. I wish I'd managed to come up with some of that info when I wrote my piece on Mckenzie's tomb for my book. Don't worry though, I didn't say it actually was haunted. I hope I will not be one of the local historians who you give a wide berth to as I've done my best to include all my refs. Mind you, sounds like you should have a crack at article or book writing yourself.

Ged
04-04-2008, 11:19 AM
As we know, even newspapers can't be guaranteed to report facts either ;)

PhilipG
04-04-2008, 11:33 AM
Hi Fortinian.
Thanks for your PM.
I did send a detailed reply, but I can't seem to find it now.
I couldn't figure out if you were for Local Historians or not.
(You should be included with them, anyway. :PDT11)
Tom Slemen obviously isn't a LH, but he knows what to do to make a penny or two.
My major point was about Wikipedia (which you didn't pick up on).
And I'm genuinely interested in which Local Historians you give a wide berth to.
(Do we agree?)
Sorry if I seemed defensive - I didn't mean to.

fortinian
04-04-2008, 12:20 PM
As we know, even newspapers can't be guaranteed to report facts either ;)

How true.

John(Zappa)
04-07-2008, 09:10 PM
Ok Miss Z's just came in with the following info from Frank Carlyle...

There's been xrays performed on the pyramid showing Mackenzie sat in an upright position.

Cadfael
04-07-2008, 10:30 PM
Ok Miss Z's just came in with the following info from Frank Carlyle...

There's been xrays performed on the pyramid showing Mackenzie sat in an upright position.

Not saying this isn't true as I've spoken to Frank Carlyle on E-mail before but I don't believe that standard Xray can go through that amount of stone and what would it produce? Doesn't X-ray have to only work on certain things for it to actually produce a picture?

Wouldn't it be microgravity that would only work?

AntiPathos
04-07-2008, 10:47 PM
....

Wouldn't it be microgravity that would only work?

"microwaves" ?

fortinian
04-09-2008, 09:25 AM
Sorry Cad, even microgravity would be useless to tell if William Mackenzie is buried there as

"The Microgravity technique in the context of civil engineering consists of measuring minute variations in the gravitational pull of the Earth and interpreting the presence of voids and cavities from these readings."

At most (if at all considering the moument is above ground) it would just tell us if the monument is hollow or not.

As for the x-rays, when were they done and who payed for all that specialist equipment and technicians? In the course of my research this is the first time i've heard of these x-rays.

fortinian
06-30-2008, 05:38 PM
I've been doing some more work,

someone asked for a picture of him - i've got one here
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3117/2779739490_e978d6910d.jpg?v=0 (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3117/2779739490_e978d6910d.jpg?v=0)

Here is an up close shot of the cartouch above the portal. The motto reads: 'Always Faithful'.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3150/2779744572_3ccdf2500b.jpg?v=0 (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3150/2779744572_3ccdf2500b.jpg?v=0)

The other interesting part of the story (Slemen's I mean) concerns thirty-three bodies that were found preserved in salt in a cellar in Liverpool. This story is true, much to my surprise. There was a Scottish connection but non with William Mackenzie. Two men were found guilty of grave robbing, Rev. James Macgowan and a man called William Gillespie alias. John Henderson.

The bodies were found to come from the parish workhouse graveyard which was adjacent to the school run by Rev. Macgowan. The bodies would have been worth up to £500 on the medical blackmarket in Glasgow where they were headed for.

PhilipG
06-30-2008, 07:51 PM
I've been doing some more work,

The other interesting part of the story (Slemen's I mean) concerns thirty-three bodies that were found preserved in salt in a cellar in Liverpool. This story is true, much to my surprise. There was a Scottish connection but non with William Mackenzie. Two men were found guilty of grave robbing, Rev. James Macgowan and a man called William Gillespie alias. John Henderson.

The bodies were found to come from the parish workhouse graveyard which was adjacent to the school run by Rev. Macgowan. The bodies would have been worth up to £500 on the medical blackmarket in Glasgow where they were headed for.

That sounds familiar.
I'd read that years before Slemen came on the scene.
Hope Street, wasn't it?
Can't remember salt being mentioned, but that might just be my memory.

fortinian
06-30-2008, 08:21 PM
You're quite right, it was Hope Street. The crime caused some national coverage, especially among the medical profession who were trying to make it easier for bodies to be used legally in dissections.

The casks were labeled 'bitter salts' and had apparently been under Mcgowans house for at least three months before being shipped to George's Dock for transport to Glasgow.

I'd be interested to find out where you first heared or read this story!

PhilipG
06-30-2008, 08:52 PM
You're quite right, it was Hope Street. The crime caused some national coverage, especially among the medical profession who were trying to make it easier for bodies to be used legally in dissections.

The casks were labeled 'bitter salts' and had apparently been under Mcgowans house for at least three months before being shipped to George's Dock for transport to Glasgow.

I'd be interested to find out where you first heared or read this story!

It's in Richard Whittington-Egan's "Tales of Liverpool: Murder, Mayhem & Mystery" (1985), pp 15 to 19.
I've got two copies, if you want to buy one.

lindylou
06-30-2008, 09:28 PM
This is one of the stories told on the 'Shiverpool' tour. They show you the house where it took place. I forget the number but the house is more towards the Everyman end rather than the Mount st end.
I had heard the tale before.

SteH
06-30-2008, 09:37 PM
it was number 8 at the time, although I'm not sure if its been renumbered since.

fortinian
06-30-2008, 10:01 PM
Cheers for the offer, I already have the major RWE books - I don't know why I didn't pick up on that first! I feel a bit dumb now.

PhilipG
06-30-2008, 10:57 PM
it was number 8 at the time, although I'm not sure if its been renumbered since.

It will have been renumbered.
At first street numbers ran consecutively down one side of the road and carried on down the other, so the highest number was opposite number 1.
Besides, in the 1820s when this case happened there weren't many houses in Hope Street, and most of them were at the Mount Pleasant end.

Ged
07-01-2008, 09:22 AM
So good old Tom had just rehashed a true murder tale to enhance his 'ghost' books? Now that is strange?

edwardo
07-01-2008, 06:04 PM
I read about this a few years ago there was nothing to say how the bodys were disposed of or what the outcome was.

fortinian
07-01-2008, 11:37 PM
To be honest, i'm not incredibly bothered about Tom rehashing this tale... it's there in RWE, it's available to anyone with a library card in the LRO and it is a genuine grusome tale.

However, I am bothered about the bad name he gives to William Makenzie who one one of the most eminent men of his day and is now considered to be little more than a greedy, corrupt, evil and diabolic gambler all thanks to the lies of one hack writer. We should be proud that Mackenzie is buried in Liverpool.

The wikipedia article gives a good idea about his life and his enromous contribution to the railway networks of Europe.

Wikipedia article here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Mackenzie_%28contractor%29)

Max
08-15-2008, 08:55 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEBnqlCbUwY

:lol: Priceless.

fortinian
08-23-2008, 08:43 AM
Here is the actual inscription on the Pyramid, seems that William, Mary and Sarah are there in a post-mortem m?nage ? trois.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3274/2788294915_213d6de6eb.jpg?v=0

It Reads:


In the Vault Beneath
lie the remains of
William Mackenzie of Newbie
Dumfrishire, Esquire
Who died 29th October 1851
Aged 57 years
Also, Mary his wife, who died
Who died 19th December 1838
Aged 48 years
and Sarah, his second wife
Who died 9th December 1867
Aged 60 Years
This monument was erected by his
Brother Edward
As a token of love and affection
A.D. 1868
The memory of the just is blessed
Prov. 10. v7


He is listed as 'of Newbie' because shortly before his death he bought a number of big estates around the country - even though he still considered Liverpool as his base of operation.

ItsaZappathing
10-22-2008, 05:53 PM
A little clip for those interested in the Tomb can be found on the Xmas Abba Magic night.
http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/chit-chat/10940-its-xmas-party-time.html
It gets better as it goes on but unfortunately you lot have gotta go to the Xmas Abba magic doo to see the whole thing.Sorry. Not allowed to put full version up (yet).
Its good and am not gonna spoil it for you:PDT11

fortinian
10-23-2008, 12:16 AM
Is that footage real or just for dramatic purposes? Pretty cool either way.

If it is real may I ask who undertook it, paid for it and just why they did it.

ItsaZappathing
10-23-2008, 01:59 PM
Is that footage real or just for dramatic purposes? Pretty cool either way.

If it is real may I ask who undertook it, paid for it and just why they did it.

It sure is real. Real good too.
All I can tell you for the moment is...You wouldn't believe whats inside!!!
And Frankie Carlyle and my brother have something to do with it.
:PDT_Piratz_26:
Sorry I can't be of much help but I am sworn to secrecy:PDT_Xtremez_42:

fortinian
10-23-2008, 06:44 PM
Thanks Zappa. I understand that it's secret at the moment but please be sure to let us know about it after it has happened.

To be honest I'm still a bit skeptical about the body inside... but stranger things have happened.

ItsaZappathing
10-24-2008, 09:15 AM
Thanks Zappa. I understand that it's secret at the moment but please be sure to let us know about it after it has happened.

To be honest I'm still a bit skeptical about the body inside... but stranger things have happened.
Your welcome Fortinian
Stranger things sure have happened. This you won't believe:PDT_Xtremez_42:

skgogosfan
12-13-2008, 11:57 PM
I've been doing some more work,

someone asked for a picture of him - i've got one here
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3117/2779739490_e978d6910d.jpg?v=0 (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3117/2779739490_e978d6910d.jpg?v=0)

Here is an up close shot of the cartouch above the portal. The motto reads: 'Always Faithful'.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3150/2779744572_3ccdf2500b.jpg?v=0 (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3150/2779744572_3ccdf2500b.jpg?v=0)

Thanks for that close-up pic,I always wondered exactly what it was. You can't quite see from the street. Is that his family motto?

Dave.

fortinian
12-14-2008, 11:50 AM
Is that his family motto?

I'm no heraldic expert...

From what I can find out about it is that it contains some things that are typical of the many 'Mackenzie' family arms: such as the Stags Head. Also, you can just make out what looks like fire beneath the crown at the top of the coat of arms. It's actually another typical 'Mackenzie' image, especially on the clan badge. It is meant to be a pile of rocks on-fire and usually (though not in this case) has the motto: "I shine not burn".

The motto is also a typical 'Mackenzie' motto although it is usually "Daonnan D?leas" (Scottish Gaelic, meaning "Always Faithful").

Because William Mackenzie was not of a noble family i'm guessing he was granted his arms during his life-time. The human figure is unusual to appear on a coat-of-arms whereas the shells (escallops) are quite common and usually have some sort of nautical link (possibly his work on canals and docks?).

ItsaZappathing
07-27-2009, 02:45 PM
I went past this Tomb yesterday and was disgusted by the state of the place.
What the hell is going on. Why has this been left like this ?
Surely something should be done about it!!
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa113/itsazappathing/Liverpool%20stuff/DSC01008.jpg

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa113/itsazappathing/Liverpool%20stuff/DSC01007.jpg

ItsaZappathing
07-31-2009, 10:24 PM
Well what do you think folks ?
My next question would be "do people of Liverpool really care about Mc's Tomb " ?

wsteve55
08-01-2009, 12:26 AM
Obviously not,looking at the state it's in,though I think a compulsory purchase order, was made by the council,recently,after some years of wrangling with the former owner! I remember the church still being in use,in the early 70's,when I lived round the corner.

fortinian
08-03-2009, 03:14 AM
Well what do you think folks ?
My next question would be "do people of Liverpool really care about Mc's Tomb " ?


Obviously not,looking at the state it's in,though

I'm not sure this is entirely fair. St Andrews Church is undergoing a massive re-development. Structually the building was in appalling shape and serious work has to be done on it, the site has been lagrely cleared of dangerous items underfoot ready for the heritage open days in September.

As for Mackenzie's tomb... it's in pretty good shape really. A bit overgrown but what gravestone over 100 years old isn't?

Also, what could the 'people of Liverpool' really do about the tomb? The land is now owned by the council, Mackenzies tomb is not only a landmark but a civil monument to a very important man. The council would not let it disappear.

We must remember that historically the people of Liverpool did bugger all when St Andrews needed a new roof... it was Edward Mackenzie, William's out-of-town brother who paid for the debt of the church in 1868.

Ged
08-03-2009, 09:09 AM
I did reply to Zaps question on another forum that the church and grounds is undergoing restoration so no need to worry, it won't fall down.

lindylou
08-03-2009, 10:29 AM
Well what do you think folks ?
My next question would be "do people of Liverpool really care about Mc's Tomb " ?

Well, certainly a lot of Liverpool people are fascinated by this tomb, but as Fortinian says, what can liverpool people do about it ? I would like to see it spruced up a bit, it definately does attract a lot of interest. The tomb is included in part of the Shiverpool tour.

dazza
11-20-2009, 06:32 PM
I went past this Tomb yesterday and was disgusted by the state of the place.
What the hell is going on. Why has this been left like this ?
Surely something should be done about it!!
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa113/itsazappathing/Liverpool%20stuff/DSC01008.jpg

fortinian wrote:

"Pevesner, in his book on archetecture of Lancashire, when describing St Andrews Chruch, Rodney Street, mentions the tomb and says McKenzie died in 1851 and the tomb was built in 1868 - but is effectively a paraphrase of Picton."

I haven't read through the history of posts on this thread, but has anyone considered the 17 year old difference between him dying, and the creation of his tomb? Would seem unlikely to support the current myth of him sitting upright, or being above ground for that matter.

ItsaZappathing
11-20-2009, 09:50 PM
Well, certainly a lot of Liverpool people are fascinated by this tomb, but as Fortinian says, what can liverpool people do about it ? I would like to see it spruced up a bit, it definately does attract a lot of interest. The tomb is included in part of the Shiverpool tour.

Instead of getting them very useless stupid Lambanana things everywhere we should of had more of the cities "important landmarks" repaired first.

fortinian
11-21-2009, 08:55 AM
I haven't read through the history of posts on this thread, but has anyone considered the 17 year old difference between him dying, and the creation of his tomb? Would seem unlikely to support the current myth of him sitting upright, or being above ground for that matter.

Can you quote yourself? Is it bad manners?



It seems Mackenzie's soul does not lie above the ground in the pyramid. He was simply buried and the pyramid placed on top of him without his knowledge - or concent!
Either that or they had a rotting body sitting in the church yard for seventeen years!

dazza
11-21-2009, 10:32 AM
Can you quote yourself? Is it bad manners?

Hi fortinian...not if what you're saying is right? Nothing wrong with a bit of self promotion. And thanks btw - I thought it might've been covered.
That's a long time to wait just to hold a winning hand? :celb (6): This week's local myth busting prize goes to you.

Ged
11-21-2009, 09:57 PM
Whatever will Tom Slemen say?

dazza
11-21-2009, 10:51 PM
Whatever will Tom Slemen say?

I don't know - I'll ask some of his friends...

http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-monster-002.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons.php) http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-monster-003.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons.php) http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-tv-019.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons.php) http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-tv-023.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons.php) http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-015.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons.php) http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-char-014.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons.php) http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-char-030.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons.php) http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-misc-005.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons.php) http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-transport-004.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons.php)

Ged
11-22-2009, 09:51 PM
:)

ChrisGeorge
11-22-2009, 10:02 PM
I haven't read through the history of posts on this thread, but has anyone considered the 17 year old difference between him dying, and the creation of his tomb? Would seem unlikely to support the current myth of him sitting upright, or being above ground for that matter.

Hello dazza

You make an excellent point. It would appear that the pyramid-style tomb was built when Edward Mackenzie, William's out-of-town brother, paid for the debt of the church in 1868. Thus, William's body must have been interred for 17 years in a run-of-the-mill grave before he was put under the new tomb. So it is highly unlikely that he could have been reburied sitting in a chair inside the tomb. So much for that story. . . .

C

dazza
11-22-2009, 11:41 PM
Who said it wasn't true?


http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/dal8077/misc/Poker.jpg

Only joking!!! :lol: [...had you all guessing for a split second though???]. Let me introduce Jeremy Benthan, (b.1748 - 1832), politician, philosopher, legal and social reformer preserved and displayed, as requested in his will, in a wooden cabinet called an "Auto-icon" at University College, London. At the 100th & 150th year anniversaries of the college it was wheeled in the meeting of the College Council, where it was listed as "present but not voting".

So William Mackenzie was in good company in the 19c. There were other eccentric last will and testament requests.

One of Frank Carlyle's youtube vid's said that William Mackenzie went as far as to make the request in his will, to be seated upright, with said winning hand. But with the 17 year old gap, between internment and the building of the monument, it seems less than likely that his wishes were carried out to the letter. More's the pity.

Best not open the monument, and keep the myth going for as long as we possibly can?

fortinian
11-23-2009, 10:22 PM
Who said it wasn't true?
At the 100th & 150th year anniversaries of the college it was wheeled in the meeting of the College Council, where it was listed as "present but not voting".

Apparently he only votes when the vote is tied and then he always votes in favour of the motion. True utilitarianism, even in death.



One of Frank Carlyle's youtube vid's said that William Mackenzie went as far as to make the request in his will, to be seated upright, with said winning hand. But with the 17 year old gap, between internment and the building of the monument, it seems less than likely that his wishes were carried out to the letter. More's the pity.

Best not open the monument, and keep the myth going for as long as we possibly can?

I've tried to find a copy of his will but to no avail - Carlyle is a wonderful one for quoting his sources :disgust:.

Keep the myth but make sure people like Mr Carlyle (who should know better) stop promoting it as historical fact.

It is interesting to note that I have never found any reference to this 'myth' until Slemen came on the scene.

John Reppion (a writer and poster on these forums) pointed out in his '800 Years of Haunted Liverpool' that there is a very famous story about a man buried in a pyramid called 'Mad Jack Fuller' but apparently that is untrue as well although the pyramid was built before he died and he was buried underneath it.

http://johnmadjackfuller.homestead.com/Pyramid.html

SteveFaragher
11-23-2009, 10:59 PM
I was telling a freind about this myth of McKenzie and she quite rightly said it doesnt exist merely because skeletons dont exist, only in films and medical schools as once the connective tissue has disappeared so to does the skeleton so in reality all that would be left would be a pile of bones and a dissintegrated pack of cards and clothes....... er dust? not very spooky but true

pablo42
11-23-2009, 11:51 PM
I was telling a freind about this myth of McKenzie and she quite rightly said it doesnt exist merely because skeletons dont exist, only in films and medical schools as once the connective tissue has disappeared so to does the skeleton so in reality all that would be left would be a pile of bones and a dissintegrated pack of cards and clothes....... er dust? not very spooky but true

True that Steve, most skeletons fall apart. I have seen some that stay together though, don't know the reason why. Never been one to mess with bones. Bad Joo Joo.

dazza
11-24-2009, 12:15 AM
Apparently he only votes when the vote is tied and then he always votes in favour of the motion. True utilitarianism, even in death.Ha ha, only in Britain? IOW, he'd champion a cause, but would still remain in the closet. :)


I've tried to find a copy of his will but to no avail - Carlyle is a wonderful one for quoting his sources :disgust:..
That's one for Frank then - otherwise it gets filed in the unsubstantiated fact bin.


John Reppion (a writer and poster on these forums) pointed out in his '800 Years of Haunted Liverpool' that there is a very famous story about a man buried in a pyramid called 'Mad Jack Fuller' but apparently that is untrue as well although the pyramid was built before he died and he was buried underneath it.http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sick/sick0004.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-tongue-smileys.php) Amazing - he went into the afterlife armed with... a 'full dress and top hat seated at a table set with a roast chicken and a bottle of wine'. I'm not saying this is wrong - it obviously worked for him, as a royal flush did for Mackenzie.



I've just read Dan Brown's The Lost Symbol, so forgive me for asking - but was William Mackenzie a mason?


http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/dal8077/misc/Mason.jpg

dazza
11-24-2009, 12:21 AM
I was telling a freind about this myth of McKenzie and she quite rightly said it doesnt exist merely because skeletons dont exist, only in films and medical schools as once the connective tissue has disappeared so to does the skeleton so in reality all that would be left would be a pile of bones and a dissintegrated pack of cards and clothes....... er dust? not very spooky but true

Another nail in the coffin for this myth. It's not looking good for ole Mackenzie?

fortinian
11-24-2009, 01:44 AM
I've just read Dan Brown's The Lost Symbol, so forgive me for asking - but was William Mackenzie a mason?


http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/dal8077/misc/Mason.jpg


I'm going to say probably. It is extremely likely he was a Mason as Masonic activity really took off during the Victorian era, most of the movers and shakers of the day where affiliated with a Lodge of somesort. Basically Freemasonay is and has always been a big old boys club, you scratch my back, wink wink, nudge nudge, know what I mean.

ChrisGeorge
11-24-2009, 07:51 AM
True that Steve, most skeletons fall apart. I have seen some that stay together though, don't know the reason why. Never been one to mess with bones. Bad Joo Joo.

There was the case of Miss Hickman, an early woman surgeon, whose body was found in Richmond Park, London, in 1903 after she had been missing for several months. It appears to have been a case of suicide, although a poster on JtR Forums (http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=7861) argued that because her head was detached from her body, a serial killer must have done that. More likely her body just fell apart as it became skeletonized. There also appeared to be evidence that dogs or some other animals had disturbed the corpse.

Here's a pdf download about the case:

Susan Collinson, "The Case of the Missing Doctor," (http://pb.rcpsych.org/cgi/reprint/14/2/83.pdf) Sketches from the history of psychiatry (Women, suicide and insanity at the turn of the century), Psychiatric Bulletin 1990;14:83-86.

The article chronicles the case of Miss Sophia Frances Hickman, MD Bruxelles, LRCP, LRCS Edinburgh, a locum tenens at the Royal Free Hospital, Gray's Inn Road, reported missing in August 1903. As noted above, it looks as if it was a case of suicide, a hypodermic syringe being found near her body, and evidence introduced at the inquest that before her disappearance she had purchased 15 grains of sulphate of morphine. Her body was found to be "in repose" and there was no sign of sexual interference.

Chris

Ged
11-24-2009, 11:30 AM
True that Steve, most skeletons fall apart. I have seen some that stay together though, don't know the reason why. Never been one to mess with bones. Bad Joo Joo.

Pablo. Bad news for you. That skeleton in Alan's room in Rising Damp is plastic ;)

dazza
11-25-2009, 02:38 PM
Pablo. Bad news for you. That skeleton in Alan's room in Rising Damp is plastic ;)
This one is still intact, and doesn't suffer from rising damp.
http://video.yahoo.com/watch/1388610/4786730

petromax
11-25-2009, 06:48 PM
Who said it wasn't true?


http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/dal8077/misc/Poker.jpg

Only joking!!! :lol: [...had you all guessing for a split second though???]. Let me introduce Jeremy Benthan, (b.1748 - 1832), politician, philosopher, legal and social reformer preserved and displayed, as requested in his will, in a wooden cabinet called an "Auto-icon" at University College, London...

As you're probably aware this is not him. His head fell off and was eventually taken away. His body rotted from the inside, so it's largely his clothes and a dummy head that remains.

So there's still a chance that Mackenzie's clothes are still playing cards in his tomb (after a 17 years wait...)

fortinian
11-25-2009, 07:24 PM
So there's still a chance that Mackenzie's clothes are still playing cards in his tomb (after a 17 years wait...)

lol, I was about to post angrily saying 'no chance, he wasn't in the bloody pyramid in the first place'.... then I realised you were joking.

I'll get my coat.
:rolleyes:

Cadfael
11-25-2009, 08:14 PM
One has to wonder whether the story does have some sort of truth in it. It is not possible that the body was stored away, fully clothed until the money was found to have this pyramid built on top so his last dying wish could be fulfilled? It's doubtful but there has to be a reason in the 17 year wait.

Whatever the truth, it's one of the most striking grave stones I've ever seen in Liverpool, and it beats the Walker grave at Childwall.

11667

dazza
11-25-2009, 08:33 PM
One has to wonder whether the story does have some sort of truth in it. It is not possible that the body was stored away, fully clothed until the money was found to have this pyramid built on top so his last dying wish could be fulfilled? It's doubtful but there has to be a reason in the 17 year wait.
Only one way to find out...:034:

fortinian
11-25-2009, 10:42 PM
One has to wonder whether the story does have some sort of truth in it. It is not possible that the body was stored away, fully clothed until the money was found to have this pyramid built on top so his last dying wish could be fulfilled? It's doubtful but there has to be a reason in the 17 year wait.

Whatever the truth, it's one of the most striking grave stones I've ever seen in Liverpool, and it beats the Walker grave at Childwall.

11667

It is very unlikely Cad for a number of reasons.

1) Mackenzie's first wife Mary Dalziel was already buried on the grave plot so the vault was there and ready to recieve coffins easily.

2) How would you go about storing a body for 17 years? Especially a fully clothed one? They did not have refrigeration in those days and preserving techniques (formaldehyde etc...) tend to make flesh and muscle incredibly stiff. Although I do like the idea of a bloke sitting in a huge tank of formaldeyde but humerous as it is its very unlikely.

3) As for the money... William Mackenzie was incredibly wealthy and his brother even more so. In the years before his death Mackenzie had purchased a number of country estates including Newbie and other
estates in the county of Dumfries and Auchenskeoch in the Stewartry
of Kirkcudbright. His will was valued at ?341,848 at the time of his death. Because he had no children it all went to his brother Edward.

Edward Mackenzie (who erected the pyramid) owned the lovely Fawley Court http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fawley_Court_circa_1826.jpg.

Money was clearly not an issue.

The reason the pyramid was built 17 years after he died is quite simple. In 1839 William Mackenzie married for the second time to Sarah Dewhurst.

After his death Sarah remained living in Grove Street before dying herself on 9th December 1867. The pyramid was erected in 1868 simply because they where waiting for Sarah to die so she could be laid to rest with her husband.

Pretty hard to do that if there is a stonking pyramid on top of the vault is it not?

A side note: Mackenzie was much admired accross Europe, more so than in Britain. The Empeor of France Louis Napoleon was full of praise for William:


Napoleon, grasping him
by the hand, thus addressed him - "I am happy to see you again
so well. I am still happier to have the opportunity of thanking
you, as President, for the great and useful works you have executed
in France. I shall be glad to confer on you the decoration of the
Legion of Honour, and I trust your Government will permit you to
wear a distinction so well-merited.

Cadfael
11-25-2009, 10:53 PM
A cracking reply and fully knowledgeable on the subject.

I think sLemon has led many people up the garden path on this one - but I would still be first in the Q when they opened up the tomb just to have a nose.

naked lilac
11-26-2009, 06:05 AM
If the Eygptians could perserve bodies, then, why not a man with tons of Loot having his wishes granted..

They could of put him (fully clothed), like a mummy in an Eyptain casket.. and sat it up in a catacomb under the earth.. It is very cold there, and would perserve it somewhat.. I think it is possible.. Lime which may accumulate inside a skeleton.. will preserve the outer service.. Like a fossiled skull..

Those were the days of experiment and yes ,The society of Free masons..which is still alive to this day... I agree with how this could of been a hushup circumstance..but, believe preservation of bones to some extent sitting up would be fesible....

fortinian
11-27-2009, 09:45 PM
Woo! Finally, I found a copy of his Will online:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2730/4138630543_ae0f59f4cd_o.jpg

It's written in pretty dense Chancery Script and it may be a while before I have to time to sit down and transcribe it but in my quick overview I haven't found any mention of a pyramid, gambling or indeed any above ground internment at all.

The first paragraph seems to be all about looking after his wife:


. I give to my Wife an annuity of three thousand pounds payable during her life and to be enjoyed as her separate property free from the control of any husband whom she may marry whilst said annuity shall ouccure from my estate and shall be paid quarterly without dedution and I request for her to reside with my brother Edward Mackenzie in the house No 74 Grave Street Liverpool or any other house she may wish in where apartments of her own hire and for living shall be allowed to her should she so live to accept this at my decease or at any future time I own that she be allowed any out of my houses within the parliamentary constituencies of Liverpool (excepting that one at No 74 Grove Street) for a residence free of rent and all other charges for the natural term of her life or so long as she may reside in it.

You can see why the 3/4 pages of it are going to be a bugger to transcribe, but I will endevour.

naked lilac
11-28-2009, 08:57 AM
:handclap:Fortinian.. Aww, the man loved unconditionally.. How beautiful is that? :hug:

Nice you are desecting it for us.. very interesting stuff indeed.. and something for all the tour directors to digest when they pass the tomb..

ChrisGeorge
11-28-2009, 09:24 AM
One has to wonder whether the story does have some sort of truth in it. It is not possible that the body was stored away, fully clothed until the money was found to have this pyramid built on top so his last dying wish could be fulfilled? It's doubtful but there has to be a reason in the 17 year wait.

Sounds unlikely, mate. This makes a lovely story for the Shiverpool and Slemen tours. But. . .

The fact is that the pyramid monument was put up by Mackenzie's brother as a final resting place for Mr Mackenzie and his wife and others, which in itself makes it unlikely that 17 years after his demise Mackenzie was given the honor of sitting in a chair holding a winning hand. Did anything appear in the press at the time of him being put in the pyramid tomb that his corpse was arranged such a position? I assume not. Correct me if I am wrong. So, this is just a legend, and probably not true at all. Right?

But as we say, the story sounds good.

Chris

dazza
11-29-2009, 12:32 AM
Woo! Finally, I found a copy of his Will online:

It's written in pretty dense Chancery Script and it may be a while before I have to time to sit down and transcribe it but in my quick overview I haven't found any mention of a pyramid, gambling or indeed any above ground internment at all.

Excellent detective work fortinian - there's some really good stuff here. It seems like Mackenzie was a very considerate and respectful man, as far as his family was concerned. The fact that the pyramid is not explicitly mentioned in the will, casts even more doubt on on the validity on card playing, royal flush story.

The instruction for the monument came from his brother Edward, some 17 years later, following the death of James MacKenzie's wife. Edward seems to have followed his brother's wishes for a monument to be placed on the family tomb. But the pyramid could well be proved to be his choice of memorial, rather than his brother's instruction? It could be that such an unsual monument was singled out for mockery and insult, by people who were jealous of his successes, and perhaps scornful of his unorthodoxies?

We may be doing James MacKenzie a service, in quoshing the original rumour as false?

fortinian
11-29-2009, 11:55 AM
One point dazza, it was William Mackenzie - not James. The James idea is a Slemenism... Tom Slemen claims he did it so he could identify people who where stealing his stories... much like Leonardo Da Vinci included deliberate mistakes in many of his plans to foil thieves.

It doesn't help that Tom Slemen has never formally corrected the Haunted Liverpool book that it appears in or that for some time he was to be heard on the radio calling him 'William James Mackenzie'.

I think you are right that the pyramid was his brothers design, Mackenzie probably did want a memorial but I think it was more down to his brother than him. I'm trying to find out some sort of context for Pyramid memorials... I know there was an increased interest in Egypt during the Romantic Period... but Mackenzie's death was too late for that... similarly there was an interest in Egypt from the fin de siecle up until the 1930s but he would be too early for that. Maybe his brother just liked pyramids?

We may be doing James MacKenzie a service, in quoshing the original rumour as false?

As for doing him a service, I think we are in correcting the slights on his name.

But I am more concerned about the service to history itself. It is a brilliant story but it has remained unchalledged for far too long - even guidebooks are quoting it.

He was clearly a man who loved Liverpool, it's clear to see that from his Will and the fact that he was known in business as Mackenzie of Paris and Liverpool.

Ged
11-29-2009, 12:23 PM
Well done fortinian. :handclap:

dazza
11-29-2009, 06:09 PM
One point dazza, it was William Mackenzie - not James. The James idea is a Slemenism... Tom Slemen claims he did it so he could identify people who where stealing his stories... much like Leonardo Da Vinci included deliberate mistakes in many of his plans to foil thieves.

Apologies, I meant 'William', not James, thanks for correcting.


I think you are right that the pyramid was his brothers design, Mackenzie probably did want a memorial but I think it was more down to his brother than him. I'm trying to find out some sort of context for Pyramid memorials...

William Mackenzie's younger brother, partner and heir, Edward Mackenzie, died 27th Sept 1880, at Henley-on-Thames. His mausoleum at St Mary's Church, Fawly, certainly has hints of Egyptian Revival about it [picture attached]. Normally 'the winged sun' [a symbol for Horus, the sky god] was placed above temple doors to symbolise man's eternal nature. The pediment sculpture has wings, but I can't be certain whether it's a representation of Horus, without a more detailed photo? The pyramid on top is helpful however.


I know there was an increased interest in Egypt during the Romantic Period...

Actually the interest started much earlier than that, in part, owing to Nelson's victory at the battle of the Nile [1798] which loosened Napoleon's grip on Egypt. That and also his eventual defeat in 1815 [although British occupation of Egypt wasn't until 1882-1922].

John Taylor published The Great Pyramid: Why Was It Built? & Who Built It? in 1859 [pub. same year as Darwin's Origin of Species] Wiki entry here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_(1781-1864)) Charles Piazzi Smyth, in his book Our Inheritance in the Great Pyramid [pub. in 1864] 'claimed, and presumably believed, that the pyramid inch was a God-given measure handed down through the centuries from the time of Israel, and that the architects of the pyramid could only have been directed by the hand of God' - Wiki quote, see 'Piazzi Smyth, Charles'.

And as Christian apologists today still try and fact fit dinosaurs into the Noah's ark myth, so did the Victorians in attempting to prove that the measurements of pyramids, were related to the biblical 'cubit' [about 457.2mm] and the King Jame's bible version of events. I think it was an honest enquiry, but doomed to fail, as most trying to fit-the-facts to suit a cherished belief, or myth normally do.

I feel certain that Edward would have known, or even possible read some of this material. And for a contractor working on the continent, he would have encountered the metric system, and the ongoing problem of a standardisation. [It would be interesting to know the exact dimensions of the Rodney Street pyramid - as he may of played around with this?] But in a wider context, absorbing a classic pagan symbol, such as a 'pyramid' into the church, albeit a presbyterian church, such as St Andrew's, may have offered an alternative interpretation [outside of Rome] as to what constituted god's works?

Interestly enough, just looking around the sites this afternoon, it seems that prothestant Victorians, including Presbyterians, had 'Pagan' funerary memorials, rather than 'Christian'. ie: Greek vases, Greek Temples, broken columns, inverted torch's, egyptian obelisks, egyptian mausoleums. Maybe they occur in Catholic cemeteries, though I'd expect to see more angels and crosses there instead?

fortinian
11-29-2009, 07:10 PM
Brilliant once again dazza, top info. I particuarly like the idea that Mackenzie was playing around with the dimensions of the pyramid... now all I need is a tape measure and a way into the church!

Edward's mausoleum is strikingly similar in concept... one wonders if the pyramid was cleaned up would it be of the same material?

As for your ideas of pagan imagery in christian sites. Classical architecture has long had a central place in Christianity. The early Xtian basillicas where converted roman temples (Think of the Pantheon, now a church) so in a way ecclesiastical architecture was taken to be greco-roman, especially in the rennaisance when the classical world was held to be the highest form of civilisation (look at Christopher Wrens churches). Gothic architecture was considered to be suspiciously Catholic so the protestants liked the greco-roman stuff.

The image of the urn is a reminder of the Roman cremation customs.

The broken column means life cut short or indeed the last member of a family who dies without heirs.

The upside down torch is particuarly christian however... if you turned a normal torch upside down it would extinguish... but these torches are still lit representing eternal life.

I was going to write more but then I found this apt description:

Curiously, many of the monuments in Victorian cemeteries are not actually Christian, but rather pagan ? classical (Roman) or Egyptian. Christianity in 19th-century Britain was predominantly Church of England (Protestant), but with worrying challenges from various Protestant sects (Methodists, Presbyterians) as well as a movement towards "High" Anglicanism ? incorporating elements of Catholicism into the Church of England.

What Victorians put on their graves sometimes reflected their religious positions ? though in counter-intuitive ways. For instance, some Church of Englanders felt that a cross was too Catholic a symbol, and reacted by deliberately using non-Christian symbols such as columns or urns on their graves. Gothic architecture was also considered by some to be linked to the Catholic Church. However, Egyptian architecture was not linked with any Christian movements, and so was popular with everyone.

dazza
11-29-2009, 10:17 PM
Brilliant once again dazza, top info. I particuarly like the idea that Mackenzie was playing around with the dimensions of the pyramid... now all I need is a tape measure and a way into the church!

Thanks mate - likewise. You've been supplying some top-notch and solid research, all very interesting stuff. :)

The 'Pyramid Inch' [ref. here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_inch)] is one twenty-fifth of a sacred 'cubit' = 1.00106 British inches. The difference is marginally small as you can see. Lets say, for argument's sake, that MacKenzie's Pyramid in Rodney Steet is 15 feet high. The difference between the British Inch measurement and the Pyramid Inch measurement would only lead to the Pyramid being a 1/5th of an inch taller, over it's entire height. About 5mm, in today's money.

The original drawing would be more useful, though I doubt it exists anymore? The problem with a tape measurement is that the contractor, may have built it over tolerance, and so the 5mm would be lost before you even got your tape measure out. Pity.


Edward's mausoleum is strikingly similar in concept... one wonders if the pyramid was cleaned up would it be of the same material?

The Mackenzie family mausoleum [at Fawly] was built in 1862, and is constructed Aberdeen Granite.


As for your ideas of pagan imagery in christian sites. Classical architecture has long had a central place in Christianity. The early Xtian basillicas where converted roman temples (Think of the Pantheon, now a church) so in a way ecclesiastical architecture was taken to be greco-roman, especially in the rennaisance when the classical world was held to be the highest form of civilisation (look at Christopher Wrens churches). Gothic architecture was considered to be suspiciously Catholic so the protestants liked the greco-roman stuff.

It was easier for the church to absorb symbols, than to distroy them. As the Christians did of the Roman's, and the Roman's did of the Greeks.


Curiously, many of the monuments in Victorian cemeteries are not actually Christian, but rather pagan ? classical (Roman) or Egyptian... What Victorians put on their graves sometimes reflected their religious positions ? though in counter-intuitive ways. For instance, some Church of Englanders felt that a cross was too Catholic a symbol, and reacted by deliberately using non-Christian symbols such as columns or urns on their graves....However, Egyptian architecture was not linked with any Christian movements, and so was popular with everyone.

You'd think that polytheism was alive and well in Victorian society, but I guess is was just recycling existing Egyptian, Greek and Roman myths, art, literature and styles of architecture, rather than personally upholding a belief in the gods they once represented.

Max
06-11-2010, 07:23 PM
Article from the latest Fortean Times on the tomb and MacKenzie.

http://www.forteantimes.com/features/articles/3535/cheating_the_devil.html

The film is online here too!

Nice to see kids interested in him but shame the info that Fortinian posted here they didn't look up!

http://www.firstlightonline.co.uk/movies/buried-above-ground

ChrisGeorge
06-11-2010, 07:54 PM
You'd think that polytheism was alive and well in Victorian society, but I guess is was just recycling existing Egyptian, Greek and Roman myths, art, literature and styles of architecture, rather than personally upholding a belief in the gods they once represented.

Hi Fortinian and Dazza

I think it was less that the Victorians and the Georgians before them believed in pagan ideas and more that those styles of design and architecture were popular. Egyptian influences of course came in after Napoleon's adventures in Egypt.

Major General Robert Ross's 100-foot granite obelisk in Rostrevor, County Down is obviously based on classical designs of similar monuments in Rome but it has a winged eye device on it that comes from Egyptian motifs, as does Baltimore's triumphant Battle Monument to the dead of the Battle of Baltimore of September 1814 and in celebration of the defeat of the British during which Ross was killed in a skirmish before the Battle of North Point.

Ross's monument in St. Paul's Cathedral, London, shown at bottom, is obviously also of classical design with the weeping figure of Britannia and another figure holding a laurel wreath over the general's head. But no one would say Ross was not a Christian. In fact his elder brother Thomas Ross was a minister of the episcopal Church of Ireland.

Chris

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2382/3533870830_b1415a000e_b.jpg


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2552/4204122034_e6f910157e.jpg

dazza
06-11-2010, 08:59 PM
I think it was less that the Victorians and the Georgians before them believed in pagan ideas and more that those styles of design and architecture were popular. Egyptian influences of course came in after Napoleon's adventures in Egypt.

Major General Robert Ross's 100-foot granite obelisk in Rostrevor, County Down is obviously based on classical designs of similar monuments in Rome but it has a winged eye device on it that comes from Egyptian motifs, as does Baltimore's triumphant Battle Monument to the dead of the Battle of Baltimore of September 1814 and in celebration of the defeat of the British during which Ross was killed in a skirmish before the Battle of North Point.

Ross's monument in St. Paul's Cathedral, London, shown at bottom, is obviously also of classical design with the weeping figure of Britannia and another figure holding a laurel wreath over the general's head. But no one would say Ross was not a Christian. In fact his elder brother Thomas Ross was a minister of the episcopal Church of Ireland.

Thanks Chris, you're right. I was perhaps mischievously sticking my tongue-in-cheek at the ghoulish appearance of polytheism in Victorian society, but that aside, I totally agree with you that it was more a recycling or 'resurrection' if you'll permit me of pagan styles gone before.

fortinian
06-12-2010, 12:22 AM
Thanks Chris, as Dazza said, you're right. You must remember that the 'gothick' kick off of Pugin et al was as a statemant against the percieved paganism of the neoclassical. Pugin himself didn't use the term gothic, he prefered to call it 'pointed' or 'christian'.

In a roundabout way, St Andrews church itself is a fantastic example of greek-revival favoured by Foster. Greek-revival was the later stage of neoclassical architecture and shows an increased influence of the greek ruins that where being explored for the first time by the west in the late 1700s.

The differences are subtle, but many. Compare St Andrews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:StAndrewsOM.jpg) (greek-revival) to St Brides (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:St_Brides_Church_Liverpool.JPG) which is more standard neoclassical.

ChrisGeorge
06-12-2010, 07:25 AM
Thanks Chris, as Dazza said, you're right. You must remember that the 'gothick' kick off of Pugin et al was as a statemant against the percieved paganism of the neoclassical. Pugin himself didn't use the term gothic, he prefered to call it 'pointed' or 'christian'.

In a roundabout way, St Andrews church itself is a fantastic example of greek-revival favoured by Foster. Greek-revival was the later stage of neoclassical architecture and shows an increased influence of the greek ruins that where being explored for the first time by the west in the late 1700s.

The differences are subtle, but many. Compare St Andrews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:StAndrewsOM.jpg) (greek-revival) to St Brides (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:St_Brides_Church_Liverpool.JPG) which is more standard neoclassical.

Thanks, Fortinian. Good point about Pugin and the Gothic Revival being a reaction to the perceived paganism of neoclassicism. There's a nice example of Pugin's work at Scarisbrick Hall (http://www.google.com/images?rls=RNWN,RNWN:2008-02,RNWN:en&q=%22Scarisbrick%20Hall%22&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi) outside of Southport. I have not been there but the photographs of the hall make it look very dramatic and worth seeing.

Chris

fortinian
06-12-2010, 08:59 AM
Thanks, CG. Very nice. I didn't even know that existed.

dazza
07-17-2010, 04:30 PM
Hawksmoor's church - St. Anne, Limehouse, London built 1714-30 also has a pyramid in the graveyard. I'll have to get the inscription next visit?


16517

fortinian
07-19-2010, 06:46 PM
Odd Church that one Daz. From what I can gather on the internet it's not a gravemarker, it's suggested that it was intended for the tower of the church but was never added.

Of couse the Dan Brown/Masonic/Illuminati contingent are all over it but it really seems a bit of a mystery to be honest.

Of course there is also this: http://johnmadjackfuller.homestead.com/Pyramid.html

I was first made aware of this by Researchwriter (who posts on here) who's written some good stuff on Mackenzie's tomb.

dazza
07-19-2010, 09:53 PM
From what I can gather on the internet it's not a gravemarker, it's suggested that it was intended for the tower of the church but was never added.

Of couse the Dan Brown/Masonic/Illuminati contingent are all over it but it really seems a bit of a mystery to be honest.


Thanks fortinian how interesting. So the pyramid is not an actual grave marker. I like the idea of 'rejected' tower/ steeple top being planted in the graveyard.

Here's one that Hawksmoor managed to get errected - St. George, Bloomsbury, 1716-31. Notice the upside down lion, and companion unicorn. Dan Brown could built a book around this one church, it's so bizarre.

16546

wsteve55
07-19-2010, 11:51 PM
Ha,Ha,certainly a strange one!!!

ericfaragh
08-18-2010, 03:38 PM
Excellent contribution from fortinian, the urban myth comprehensively exploded, I think! Well done indeed.

The ghost story also mentions that the phantom has the shape of a tall wiry man, whereas the pics of William M show him to be a fat gent and rather an affable-looking fellow. His Diaries on Google books are rather boring and do not indicate any addiction to gambling, though he travels a lot on business and has people around to dinner quite a bit, not to mention the occasional visit to the theatre. Amongst the occasional mentions of cards (page 53 on Google books) he records "I played at cards lost 11/6, a deal too much". Hardly a fortune to a man in his position. It's hard to think of a more unlikely candidate for a deal with the devil!

fortinian
08-03-2011, 10:37 AM
My work has been picked up by MyPlanet Liverpool - a great magazine that I hope you can all get copies of.

Here is a little preview!

22406

hmtmaj
08-03-2011, 12:14 PM
Where can we get a copy ?

( I've emailed you by the way ) :ninja:

Thanks, Mart

Ged
08-03-2011, 12:14 PM
Well done Fortinian, nice to see your work recognised. :PDT11

I believe St Andrews church development will be completed some time next years and it will become student accommodation.

Will the graves and tomb remain in situ, I expect so.

johnreppion
08-28-2011, 11:19 AM
Fortinian,

Really enjoyed the piece mate. Well done. :PDT11

wsteve55
08-30-2011, 01:37 AM
Excellent contribution from fortinian, the urban myth comprehensively exploded, I think! Well done indeed.

The ghost story also mentions that the phantom has the shape of a tall wiry man, whereas the pics of William M show him to be a fat gent and rather an affable-looking fellow. His Diaries on Google books are rather boring and do not indicate any addiction to gambling, though he travels a lot on business and has people around to dinner quite a bit, not to mention the occasional visit to the theatre. Amongst the occasional mentions of cards (page 53 on Google books) he records "I played at cards lost 11/6, a deal too much". Hardly a fortune to a man in his position. It's hard to think of a more unlikely candidate for a deal with the devil!

lol

Howie
08-30-2011, 07:19 AM
I believe St Andrews church development will be completed some time next years and it will become student accommodation.

Luxury student accommodation with its own graveyard. Different!