George Kelly Cameo Cinema Murder

[emmagill]

Hi

My name's Emma Gill and George Kelly's my late Great Uncle. He was my Grandma's brother. I am doing a lot of research at the moment into the case. I have just discovered this website and have read some of the members' comments regarding my Uncle Georgie. I am sure I can rely on the knowledge and warmth of all you scoucers with this most importantly if any of you know of any details of the case being made into a film etc.

There is an awful lot that I do know, privately within my family and I wish sometimes it were known publicly of the mental torment and heartbreak endured to my great grandparents and grandparents and great uncles during the trial and after Uncle Georgie's execution. To this day we still carry the scars and heartache in many different ways.

I know there is still a lot of interest in the Cameo Cinema Murder in Liverpool. I don't live in the City but am up there regularly and follow the Mighty Reds all the time. Fingers crossed with Barca next month!!

I look forward to hearing from anyone who has any thoughts.

All the best.

Emma Gill

[scouse mouse]

A little bit before my time, but I read the book a few years ago by Barry Shortall.

Very interesting imho.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

Hi

My name's Emma Gill and George Kelly's my late Great Uncle. He was my Grandma's brother. I am doing a lot of research at the moment into the case. I have just discovered this website and have read some of the members' comments regarding my Uncle Georgie. I am sure I can rely on the knowledge and warmth of all you scoucers with this most importantly if any of you know of any details of the case being made into a film etc.

There is an awful lot that I do know, privately within my family and I wish sometimes it were known publicly of the mental torment and heartbreak endured to my great grandparents and grandparents and great uncles during the trial and after Uncle Georgie's execution. To this day we still carry the scars and heartache in many different ways.

I know there is still a lot of interest in the Cameo Cinema Murder in Liverpool. I don't live in the City but am up there regularly and follow the Mighty Reds all the time. Fingers crossed with Barca next month!!

I look forward to hearing from anyone who has any thoughts.

All the best.

Emma Gill

Perhaps if you approach Tom Slemen and ask him you may get a few leads

[PhilipG]

Perhaps if you approach Tom Slemen and ask him you may get a few leads

I thought Tom Slemen was involved with myths and legends that are hard to prove.
Whereas the Cameo Murders really did happen and 2 books have been published.

[SteH]

I thought Tom Slemen was involved with myths and legends that are hard to prove.
Whereas the Cameo Murders really did happen and 2 books have been published.

George Skely, author of The Cameo Conspiracy is the man to contact, he's even been kind enough to post how to get in touch with him here (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/messageboards/page.cfm?objectid=11479396&method=full&siteid=50061).

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi all

I received an email recently from George Skelly, author the Cameo Conspiracy, telling me that the screenplay of his version of the Cameo story is now with movie producers, and the film's development is going ahead.

Emma, knowing that George's father, James Skelly, was a friend of the wrongfully convicted and hanged George Kelly, I am sure that the film portrayal will help to set the record right about what happened at the Cameo theatre and in the aftermath.

Best regards

Chris

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

I thought Tom Slemen was involved with myths and legends that are hard to prove.
Whereas the Cameo Murders really did happen and 2 books have been published.


Not entirely Phil, Tom also investigates local crime and murders - he has covered Madge Kirby murder,The Cameo and is currently ( Hes been writing it for aggggeeeeessssssss) as book about a new Ripper Suspect

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi all

I received the following email from George Skelly who corrects me on a couple of points in my last post.

Chris

********

Hi Chris,

thanks for your email and for explaining matters on Yo Liverpool website.

A few "amendments" which I don't mind you putting on the site :-

(a)I no longer live at Portland Court so correspondent ("PhilipG"?) has got it wrong!

(b)Mr Slemen, to my knowledge has not done any research on the Cameo Murders nor published any new or original material or book. He has simply regurgitated, in local press articles, the material I, and Shortall, uncovered. Indeed in a magazine article ("Taxi Talk") a few years ago, he actually maintained that Kelly was the Cameo killer!

(c)Sorry Chris, but James Skelly was not my father, he was my eldest brother by 18 years!

Hope you are well - carry on with the poetry - it's very good.

Kind Regards,

George.

[PhilipG]

Hi all

I received the following email from George Skelly who corrects me on a couple of points in my last post.

Chris

********

Hi Chris,

thanks for your email and for explaining matters on Yo Liverpool website.

A few "amendments" which I don't mind you putting on the site :-

(a)I no longer live at Portland Court so correspondent ("PhilipG"?) has got it wrong!

(b)Mr Slemen, to my knowledge has not done any research on the Cameo Murders nor published any new or original material or book. He has simply regurgitated, in local press articles, the material I, and Shortall, uncovered. Indeed in a magazine article ("Taxi Talk") a few years ago, he actually maintained that Kelly was the Cameo killer!

(c)Sorry Chris, but James Skelly was not my father, he was my eldest brother by 18 years!

Hope you are well - carry on with the poetry - it's very good.

Kind Regards,

George.


Not me George!

I haven't heard of Portland Court (or you, for that matter).

Do please check what you're saying when you're naming somebody.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

Hi all

I received the following email from George Skelly who corrects me on a couple of points in my last post.

Chris

********

Hi Chris,

thanks for your email and for explaining matters on Yo Liverpool website.

A few "amendments" which I don't mind you putting on the site :-

(a)I no longer live at Portland Court so correspondent ("PhilipG"?) has got it wrong!

(b)Mr Slemen, to my knowledge has not done any research on the Cameo Murders nor published any new or original material or book. He has simply regurgitated, in local press articles, the material I, and Shortall, uncovered. Indeed in a magazine article ("Taxi Talk") a few years ago, he actually maintained that Kelly was the Cameo killer!

(c)Sorry Chris, but James Skelly was not my father, he was my eldest brother by 18 years!

Hope you are well - carry on with the poetry - it's very good.

Kind Regards,

George.

Not me George!

I never said that Tom Slemen had published anything regarding the cameo murders,or did i say that Tom maintained that the murderer was Kelly - all i said was ask Tom Slemen he might have a few points for you to the poster of this thread.
I have been a member of Toms forum and i know that he use to have a large Murder and local crime section on his forum and that the Cameo murders was disscussed heavily on one thread - just trying to point in a friendly direction to the poster as i know that the people that visit Toms site and Tom himself have a vast knowledge of local issues far reaching than any published book.

[PhilipG]

All I've said on this thread is the following:

Quote:
"I thought Tom Slemen was involved with myths and legends that are hard to prove.
Whereas the Cameo Murders really did happen and 2 books have been published."

I've never heard of George Skelly, and have no idea why he mentioned my name.

But haven't I already said that?

[ChrisGeorge]

All I've said on this thread is the following:

Quote:
"I thought Tom Slemen was involved with myths and legends that are hard to prove.
Whereas the Cameo Murders really did happen and 2 books have been published."

I've never heard of George Skelly, and have no idea why he mentioned my name.

But haven't I already said that?

Hello Philip and Emmanuel

Sorry for the mixup, guys. It was in fact SteH who gave a link to an old message on icLiverpool giving contact information for George Skelly, author of The Cameo Conspiracy, but George says the information is not current. It so happened that you, Philip G, were quoted in the same post of SteH's which led to the mixup. George is unfamiliar with this forum and it was an honest mistake, sorry! Anyway, George has sent the following. We do note, Philip, that you also had said, "I thought Tom Slemen was involved with myths and legends that are hard to prove. Whereas the Cameo Murders really did happen and 2 books have been published." Absolutely true. Emmanuel, granted that Tom Slemen has a forum on which crime history has been discussed. George Skelly simply wishes to point out that Mr Slemen is not an expert on the Cameo case.

Chris,

not being a member of your forum I would be grateful if you could post this email.

It seems I have upset your correspondent "PhilipG". On closer scrutiny the remarks which I attributed to him, to which I made my "amendments", were by "Emmanuel Goldstein" and "StephH".

"PhilipG", however, states that I should check before "naming" people. In my defence may I point out that when I mentioned his "name" it was not his full name (which I do not know) and is, I presume, either an abbreviation or a pseudonym. Secondly, I did put a question mark after his "name" to indicate that I was asking if it was he. Quite different from "naming" somebody as such.

As for Mr Slemen, of whom one of your correspondents asserts has much more local knowledge than that contained in a published book - that may apply in general to many people. I don't profess to be knowledgeable in the least about ghosts or the supernatural (mainly because I do not believe in either). I do however feel that your correspondent should appreciate that the "published book", The Cameo Conspiracy, was the result of at least 40 years intimate knowledge and ongoing research.

Kind regards,

George Skelly

[PhilipG]

Ironically, what I was implying was that either of the two books would be a better source of information than Tom Slemen on the Cameo case.
But I didn't know the names of the authors.
But I'm less inclined to read them now that I know one of the authors throws names about without checking his facts.
It's no excuse to say he put in a question mark and assumes that "PhilipG" is some sort of alias.
George Skelly says he doesn't know my full name, but a lot of people on this forum do, and if Mr Skelly had known my full name I suspect he would have used it.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

Dearest George:)

You say in your mail posted here through a third party

"As for Mr Slemen, of whom one of your correspondents asserts has much more local knowledge than that contained in a published book - that may apply in general to many people. I don't profess to be knowledgeable in the least about ghosts or the supernatural (mainly because I do not believe in either). I do however feel that your correspondent should appreciate that the "published book", The Cameo Conspiracy, was the result of at least 40 years intimate knowledge and ongoing research."

I really wish you would read my posts and understand them before spouting stuff through a third party..as i did not say the things you are pertaining in your mail!

I said....

" just trying to point in a friendly direction to the poster as i know that the people that visit Toms site and Tom himself have a vast knowledge of local issues far reaching than any published book."

so george as you can see all i said was that THE PEOPLE that visit toms site and TOM himself have a vast knowledge of LOCAL ISSUES far reaching than ANY published book.....perhaps you can see now the word ANY published book,and the words LOCAL ISSUES so please stop fretting as i never singled your book out,please get a grip of your paranoia.

Hopefully Emma Gill will be able to gleam some local information that she is looking for from either this site or Toms site..after all i didnt know that there was a Monopoly on the cameo case or knowledge of the case.:)

[AntiPathos]

Someone on here raises an interesting point and I'd like to expand on it with a question -

Can anyone provide an example of Mr. Slemen discovering any unique, verifiable and substantial information about any of the criminal cases which he has "investigated" which cannot be otherwise ascertained via any pre-existing published material ?

AP

[PhilipG]

Someone on here raises an interesting point and I'd like to expand on it with a question -

Can anyone provide an example of Mr. Slemen discovering any unique, verifiable and substantial information about any of the criminal cases which he has "investigated" which cannot be otherwise ascertained via any pre-existing published material ?

AP

Welcome AntiPathos.

A very good question. :handclap:

[Max]

What Wavertree street was the Cameo?

I forgot which street but I remember lemen's article In the South Liverpool Merseymart.

[PhilipG]

What Wavertree street was the Cameo?

I forgot which street but I remember lemen's article In the South Liverpool Merseymart.

The corner of Webster Road & Bird Street.
Off Smithdown Road.
There's new housing there now.

[Max]

Ahhhh Webster Road I know.

I thought that was Edge Hill though since It's past Earl Road?

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

Someone on here raises an interesting point and I'd like to expand on it with a question -

Can anyone provide an example of Mr. Slemen discovering any unique, verifiable and substantial information about any of the criminal cases which he has "investigated" which cannot be otherwise ascertained via any pre-existing published material ?

AP

welcome AntiPathos

That is a very reasonable question to ask, im sure if you visited Toms forum and asked him in his " Ask Tom " section he might be able to answer it for you? I cant answer that one but he reckons that he has a new ripper suspect that has not been mentioned in the suspect mix before - guess we will have to wait till his book is published i guess:)

[AntiPathos]

PhilipG/Emmanuel Goldstein,

Thanks for the welcome fellas.

As far as asking him on his forum what he has demonstrably achieved in respect of moving on any unsolved/contentious criminal cases, this might be pointless. I have heard that anything remotely challenging to answer is promptly deleted. I've seen his site and one could be forgiven for imagining that the TS Forum is strictly for his peculiar band of personal nuthuggers and oddball sycophants but 'difficult' posts have been made on that board and swiftly plucked off the Truth Tree and left to rot in Slemen's deletion bin. It's not in his interests to have his regular board viewers exposed to any trace of critical thinking after all...

And as for his Ripper bandwagonning, Mr George would be an apt person to comment on that. Although the inactivity regarding his 'theory' on the Casebook website says alot.

If you hadn't guessed, I posed my original question after having recently read Slemen's treatment of the Cameo Cinema Murders. AFAICR, not a thing of interest which he wrote could not have been gleaned from Mr. George Skelly's book. And anything else which he has imagined to have happened was without a mite of evidence.

His Ripper book, if it ever sees the light of day, will be the first time he has ever typed a substantial work of any kind. Perhaps that's why it's so far taken him twelve years (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20010422/ai_n14526641) to not produce. After all his specialism lies in the rather less illustrious direction of constructing short pieces of laughable nonsense for the intellectually infirm.

AP

[PhilipG]

PhilipG/Emmanuel Goldstein,

Thanks for the welcome fellas.

As far as asking him on his forum what he has demonstrably achieved in respect of moving on any unsolved/contentious criminal cases, this might be pointless. I have heard that anything remotely challenging to answer is promptly deleted. I've seen his site and one could be forgiven for imagining that the TS Forum is strictly for his peculiar band of personal nuthuggers and oddball sycophants but 'difficult' posts have been made on that board and swiftly plucked off the Truth Tree and left to rot in Slemen's deletion bin. It's not in his interests to have his regular board viewers exposed to any trace of critical thinking after all...

And as for his Ripper bandwagonning, Mr George would be an apt person to comment on that. Although the inactivity regarding his 'theory' on the Casebook website says alot.

If you hadn't guessed, I posed my original question after having recently read Slemen's treatment of the Cameo Cinema Murders. AFAICR, not a thing of interest which he wrote could not have been gleaned from Mr. George Skelly's book. And anything else which he has imagined to have happened was without a mite of evidence.

His Ripper book, if it ever sees the light of day, will be the first time he has ever typed a substantial work of any kind. Perhaps that's why it's so far taken him twelve years (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20010422/ai_n14526641) to not produce. After all his specialism lies in the rather less illustrious direction of constructing short pieces of laughable nonsense for the intellectually infirm.

AP


AP

Do a Search in this group for Slemen and you'll find some interesting posts.
He obviously has his admirers and non-admirers.
Regarding myself as a local historian I'm always willing to give my sources (which TS never gives), and always try to deal in facts.
But I don't write about ghosts and ghoulies simply because I'm a non-believer.

[AntiPathos]

The other day someone rang in to Billy Butler's radio prog and asked him about an upcoming film based on the Cameo murders. The caller said something like "it's a certificate 18, with US and British actors and will be out in the Autumn". After I heard it my Insightful Question of the Day was that I wasn't sure sure if this caller was asking Billy or telling him (think about it). Something didn't seem right anyway and so I did some digging: there's no Cameo film registered with the BBFC and nothing showing up on IMDB. So, does anyone know anything about it ? Or is a better searcher than I am !

AP.

[FKoE]

There is a film of the cameo case in production.... I believe...

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi all

I understand that from a recent email from George Skelly, author of The Cameo Conspiracy, that a movie of his book is still in the works.

Chris

[FKoE]

Dinnae just say that without the palava mate ?

[ChrisGeorge]

Yeh yer rite mate. Just thought I'd add a bit o' palaver tho. :Colorz_Grey_PDT_16: :celb (6):

[FKoE]

Seeing as they were both mates of me dars... I don't see the point... honestly...

[SteH]

Hello Mark R.

Great to see you here. I believe you will know me from the Casebook: Jack the Ripper website. Contemporary views of people involved in famous cases are always interesting. I found George Skelly's The Cameo Conspiracy to be quite persuasive, although I have recently read Richard Whittington-Egan's assessment that the alleged gunman, George Kelly--whom he had met--was the "Little Caesar of Lime Street." It still doesn't mean of course that Kelly did the double murders of the manager and assistant manager at the Cameo Cinema in Wavertree on March 19, 1949 but RWE's characterization of Kelly gives one pause for thought.

Chris

Chris, have you ever read Barry Shortall's book on the Cameo murders? This seems to imply that Kelly was innnocent but Connolly was guilty.

[ChrisGeorge]

Chris, have you ever read Barry Shortall's book on the Cameo murders? This seems to imply that Kelly was innnocent but Connolly was guilty.

Hi Steve

No I have not read the Shortall book. Connolly and Kelly of course contended they did not even know each other. If Shortall is right that Connolly was involved in the Cameo murders, why didn't he turn in the gunman instead of contending, as I believe his counsel argued at his second trial, that Kelly did the murders -- a story that he later recanted?

Chris

[SteH]

Hi Steve

No I have not read the Shortall book. Connolly and Kelly of course contended they did not even know each other. If Shortall is right that Connolly was involved in the Cameo murders, why didn't he turn in the gunman instead of contending, as I believe his counsel argued at his second trial, that Kelly did the murders -- a story that he later recanted?

Chris

Shortall states that if the testimonies of the witnesses were true then Connolly could have planned the robbery. He also has letters from an MP who was trying to get the case re-opened on behalf of the Kelly family in his appendices. The letters say that as Connolly wont make a statement on what he knows, there'd be no chance of getting things re-opened.

There's no real explanation in the book as to why, given that Connolly changed his plea to guilty, he didnt go on to name the gunman.

I'm fully with Skelly on this one anyway, I cant see why Connolly would maintain his innocence till his death 45 years after the event if he was guilty -surely at some point he would have confessed all to put the Kelly family's minds at rest.

[ChrisGeorge]

Shortall states that if the testimonies of the witnesses were true then Connolly could have planned the robbery. He also has letters from an MP who was trying to get the case re-opened on behalf of the Kelly family in his appendices. The letters say that as Connolly wont make a statement on what he knows, there'd be no chance of getting things re-opened.

There's no real explanation in the book as to why, given that Connolly changed his plea to guilty, he didnt go on to name the gunman.

I'm fully with Skelly on this one anyway, I cant see why Connolly would maintain his innocence till his death 45 years after the event if he was guilty -surely at some point he would have confessed all to put the Kelly family's minds at rest.

Hello Steve

I received the following information from George Skelly which might clarify some things from his perspective.

In George's opinion, Richard Whittington-Egan has not written any worthwhile account of the Cameo case. In his book Liverpool Roundabout he simply recounts Balmer's now totally discredited scenario, and states that he briefly met Kelly in the Big House pub on Lime Street.

George feels that Shortall's scenario doesn't make sense.

George notes that there is confusion in Shortall's book about whether the crime was planned in the Beehive pub or in the Boundary Pub. At first, the plotters are in the Beehive pub planning the crime, then without any change of scene or time lapse, when they are leaving the pub it has suddenly and magically become the Boundary pub -- which was nearer to the Cameo and over 2 miles away from the Beehive.

Shortall also maintains that Donald Johnson was the Cameo killer. Johnson was a thin fair-haired, slightly built man -- yet every witness at the cinema and outside stated on oath that the killer was dark haired, with dark eyebrows and stockily built.

George further talks about Shortall's assertion that Connolly was involved as the killer's accomplice and would not speak to MP Sydney Silverman.

George says that the reason for this, according to what Connolly told George, was that although he was willing to co-operate with both Mr Silverman and a Daily Express reporter, he discovered at the last minute that George Kelly's relative - who was the initiator and go-between - was motivated by money and that as a consequence Connolly decided to withdraw his co-operation. Connolly was going to state formally to the Silverman and the reporter that despite his guilty plea to robbery at the Cameo, he was in fact innocent, did not know Kelly, and believed that Kelly too was innocent.

Chris

[Walden]

My mum and dad were in the cameo the night of the murder - alas mum had no further evidence about the case to offer and couldn't even remember what film they watched. Anyone know what it was just out of interest?

[SteH]

According to George Skelly's book the main picture was Bond Street (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0039206/)

[Walden]

According to George Skelly's book the main picture was Bond Street (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0039206/)

Cheers! I'll mention that to my mum see if she remembers it.

[DaisyChains]

I have just finished reading Mr Skelly's book, and never have I felt so emotional and moved after reading any account of crime (I am a fan of true crime books-morbid I know!)

I just wondered though....Mr Skelly goes into great detail in the book about things people were saying and doing, for instance when Northam, Dickson and Balmer are together concocting statements....how does Mr Skelly know what they said and how those statements were thought up?
I am not critisising at all, would just be fascinated to know really!!

[Chrisk]

George Skelly is an amazing writer and a man with a genuine sense of injustice. I suppose living and breathing the Cameo Murders for nearly 60 years makes him the no 1 authority on what happened and you can be assured that his book is 100 per cent accurate. I congratulate George Skelly and his friend Lou Santangeli for their tenacity and dedication. Indeed I believe it was Mr Santangeli was the person who discovered the statement from Graham that was never declared at the trial and would undoubtedly have resulted in a different verdict.

[steveb]

Someone on here raises an interesting point and I'd like to expand on it with a question -

Can anyone provide an example of Mr. Slemen discovering any unique, verifiable and substantial information about any of the criminal cases which he has "investigated" which cannot be otherwise ascertained via any pre-existing published material ?

AP

Ermmmmm, no. Having read some of what Mr Slemen has written, a lot of
it seems to be hearsay, stuff allready published and pure myth.
Surely fact info on the Cameo murders can be found in the LRO or court
records.

[ChrisGeorge]

George Skelly is an amazing writer and a man with a genuine sense of injustice. I suppose living and breathing the Cameo Murders for nearly 60 years makes him the no 1 authority on what happened and you can be assured that his book is 100 per cent accurate. I congratulate George Skelly and his friend Lou Santangeli for their tenacity and dedication. Indeed I believe it was Mr Santangeli was the person who discovered the statement from Graham that was never declared at the trial and would undoubtedly have resulted in a different verdict.

Hello Chrisk

You are correct that Mr Lou Santangeli discovered the statement by Graham that showed that the prosecution had held back pertinent evidence in the case. His role in finding this information is explained in an interesting PDF file (http://www.ccrc.gov.uk/CCRC_Uploads/KELLY_AND_CONNOLLY_-_28_10_03.pdf) on the Cameo case from the Royal Courts of Justice in October 2003. This explains why the court found the convictions of George Kelly and Charles Connolly to be "unsafe" because of the mishandled prosecution and probable wrongdoing of Detective Chief Inspector Balmer in, as George Skelly describes it, framing Kelly and Connolly for the murders.

Chris

[AntiPathos]

Ermmmmm, no. Having read some of what Mr Slemen has written, a lot of
it seems to be hearsay, stuff allready published and pure myth.
Surely fact info on the Cameo murders can be found in the LRO or court
records.

Thanks. That wasn't a rhetorical question which I posed, BTW. I'd genuinely like to know.

AP.

[Chrisk]

Hi Chris, I am aware of the 2003 Judgement particularly page 3 Para 4 " All that evidence was false and probably deliberate so" or page 8 para 27 " Nevertheless when the evidence of Graham at both trials and of CI Balmer at the first trial to the effect that the two had not met in the context of the case prior to 19th September is taken into account, and in the absence of any explanation for such testomony, the conclusuion is that such evidence amounted to deliberate concealment becomes at the least highly likely" or page 25 para 97 "Indeed the lies of Graham and CI Balmer in relation to when they first saw one another in relation to the Cameo murders are are a strong indication of the need for concealment"

I believe there is still unfinished business here. I know both verdicts have been quashed and Kelly got a christian burial but what about Balmer, he seems to have got off scot free. No doubt George Skelly's book will be very revealing about the seemingly injustice of Burns and Devlin at the hands of a bent detective. Will Balmer escape again? Here is a Police Officer who went right to the top and was highly decorated to the point of receiving the QPM and OBE . Should those awards be withdrawn? I think that they should and will be if I have anything to do with it!

[DaisyChains]

that's a really interesting point.
If Kelly is now cleared of the crime, surely Balmer's honours should be taken away.
If Kelly didn't commit the crime, then he was obviously a scapegoat

How very sad this case is

[Chrisk]

The important point is that Balmer has been proven to have lied and a man lost his life as a result. Something should be done about it.

[Store 3]

George Skelly is an amazing writer and a man with a genuine sense of injustice. I suppose living and breathing the Cameo Murders for nearly 60 years makes him the no 1 authority on what happened and you can be assured that his book is 100 per cent accurate. I congratulate George Skelly and his friend Lou Santangeli for their tenacity and dedication. Indeed I believe it was Mr Santangeli was the person who discovered the statement from Graham that was never declared at the trial and would undoubtedly have resulted in a different verdict.

the name ( lou santangeli ) is known to me did he work in meccano....

[Mark R]

The Cameo Cinema in 1958. Thanks to Harold Ackroyd

[DaisyChains]

was there ever a Muder Casebook magazine about the Cameo murders?

[Mark R]

I'm not sure...There doesn't seem to be one on the list here:

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Magazine-Back-Issues_Murder-Casebook_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ11QQftidZ2QQtZkm

[Chris48]

Hi Chris, I am aware of the 2003 Judgement particularly page 3 Para 4 " All that evidence was false and probably deliberate so" or page 8 para 27 " Nevertheless when the evidence of Graham at both trials and of CI Balmer at the first trial to the effect that the two had not met in the context of the case prior to 19th September is taken into account, and in the absence of any explanation for such testomony, the conclusuion is that such evidence amounted to deliberate concealment becomes at the least highly likely" or page 25 para 97 "Indeed the lies of Graham and CI Balmer in relation to when they first saw one another in relation to the Cameo murders are are a strong indication of the need for concealment"

The above quote was mine under an old username. What I have posted was an extract from the court of appeal judgement on the Cameo case and the traversty of justice that occured in this case and resulted in the execution of George Kelly in 1950 and the wrongful conviction of Charles Connolly. The appeal judges said that Chief Inspector Herbert Balmer had lied. Balmer was awarded the Kings police and fire service medal for his meritorious work on this case.....and he lied! He sent an innocent man to his death and another to prison for 10 years. So what I want to know is this.

Why has Liverpool Council included Herbert Balmer in a publication celebrating "800 names of people who helped shape our city"?. Are they proud of what Balmer did? Click on this link, scroll to the very bottom and then count up 17 lines.

http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/Images/tcm21-100996.pdf

[Chris48]

I can feel a letter to the Echo coming on here!

[DaisyChains]

Why has Liverpool Council included Herbert Balmer in a publication celebrating "800 names of people who helped shape our city"?. Are they proud of what Balmer did? Click on this link, scroll to the very bottom and then count up 17 lines.

http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/Images/tcm21-100996.pdf


This is utterly disgusting!

Any news on the film plans?

[Chris48]

George is still busy with the screenplay Daisy and the Cranbourne Road book.

[DaisyChains]

George is still busy with the screenplay Daisy and the Cranbourne Road book.

Brilliant!
Can't wait for both!:)

[Chris48]

I have just finished reading Mr Skelly's book, and never have I felt so emotional and moved after reading any account of crime (I am a fan of true crime books-morbid I know!)

I just wondered though....Mr Skelly goes into great detail in the book about things people were saying and doing, for instance when Northam, Dickson and Balmer are together concocting statements....how does Mr Skelly know what they said and how those statements were thought up?
I am not critisising at all, would just be fascinated to know really!!

It really is a great book isn't it Daisy. It is full of atmosphere and really captured my imagination. George is a good friend of mine and he is very busy with the Cranbourne book. He needs more information about Thomas Rimmer who was the son of the victim. I am researching Balmer and any information would be gratefully received about him.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi all

I am presently reading the book The Innocent Man: Murder and Injustice in a Small Town by American novelist and former lawyer John Grisham. I would recommend it as a very disturbing but informative account of how police in Oklahoma "fitted up" what they conceived to be "likely suspects" in a couple of murder cases. What occurred was very similar to what the Liverpool police did under Balmer with Kelly and Connolly in the Cameo case and Devlin and Burns in the Cranbourne Road case.

Chris

[john wallace]

Hi

My name's Emma Gill and George Kelly's my late Great Uncle. He was my Grandma's brother. I am doing a lot of research at the moment into the case. I have just discovered this website and have read some of the members' comments regarding my Uncle Georgie. I am sure I can rely on the knowledge and warmth of all you scoucers with this most importantly if any of you know of any details of the case being made into a film etc.

There is an awful lot that I do know, privately within my family and I wish sometimes it were known publicly of the mental torment and heartbreak endured to my great grandparents and grandparents and great uncles during the trial and after Uncle Georgie's execution. To this day we still carry the scars and heartache in many different ways.

I know there is still a lot of interest in the Cameo Cinema Murder in Liverpool. I don't live in the City but am up there regularly and follow the Mighty Reds all the time. Fingers crossed with Barca next month!!

I look forward to hearing from anyone who has any thoughts.

All the best.

Emma Gill

Hello Emma,

I was a kid at the time and apparently George Kelly used to drink in the Leigh Arms at the top of Alfred and Cambridge Street, next to the rail depot. My uncles used to drink in the same pub.There was also a local rumour that the weapon was thrown into the pond at Botanic Park. Just thought I would pass that on.

[Chris48]

It was more than a rumour that the gun was thrown into Botanic park lake. That suggestion was made to the Police in an anonymous letter to them which was eventually claimed to have been sent by the witnesses Northam and Dickson. The Police drained the lake and searched but never found the gun. It was also claimed that the gun was hidden in the vicinity of the cemetery on Smithdown Road where the birds can only reach it - or words to that effect. The lawyers Livermore and Heilbron took it upon themselves to search the cemetery themselves too.

[DaisyChains]

It was more than a rumour that the gun was thrown into Botanic park lake. That suggestion was made to the Police in an anonymous letter to them which was eventually claimed to have been sent by the witnesses Northam and Dickson. The Police drained the lake and searched but never found the gun. It was also claimed that the gun was hidden in the vicinity of the cemetery on Smithdown Road where the birds can only reach it - or words to that effect. The lawyers Livermore and Heilbron took it upon themselves to search the cemetery themselves too.

would be amazing if the gun turned up in the cemetery now!

[Chris48]

Be a good project for somebody with a metal detector!

[Peter Connolly]

It was more than a rumour that the gun was thrown into Botanic park lake. That suggestion was made to the Police in an anonymous letter to them which was eventually claimed to have been sent by the witnesses Northam and Dickson. The Police drained the lake and searched but never found the gun. It was also claimed that the gun was hidden in the vicinity of the cemetery on Smithdown Road where the birds can only reach it - or words to that effect. The lawyers Livermore and Heilbron took it upon themselves to search the cemetery themselves too.

Hi Chris my name is Peter Connolly (charlies newphew) I would like to have a chat with you

[Peter Connolly]

Hi Chris, my name is Peter Connolly the nephew of charlie connolly I would like to have a chat with you regarding the cameo

[Chris48]

Peter, I have sent you a private message.

[burkhilly]

I find this case absolutely fascinating. The Cameo murders were something I heard about all my life - particularly as George Kelly's family contininued trying to have the case reopened.

I then read George Skelly's book - excellent. I am quite convinced that the two men were set up by Balmer. Charles Connolly admitted to the crime - after George Kelly was sentenced to death - at a separate trial. Basically his legal counsel hinted that being sentenced to death would likely happen to him also. Therefore I'm not surprised he "admitted" to the crime. After I had read the book, I emailed George and he emailed back - great bloke and author with a sense of justice most of us lack.

A couple of months ago I was telling my friend about the book and the story behind it. She then asked if I remembered Charles Connolly who came into the local grocers regularly. She said he was a very dour man quite nasty. I believe he lived in St Oswald's Gardens. I don't remember him. Given what the poor man had been through, no wonder he appeared not to like people.

[Chris48]

I never met Charles Connolly unfortunately but I believe that he was a very nice man, a gentle giant who wasn't bitter but wanted the truth to be told. George Skelly will tell you the same as will Lou Santangeli who were both instrumental in reviewing and presenting buried evidence that subsequently overturned the convictions. You must also read the Appeal notes at

Search results for: kelly (http://www.ccrc.gov.uk/es/esearch.asp?start=0&perPage=10&summary=yes&sort=rank&col=CCRC&search=kelly)

Balmer lied and the appeal judges have recognised that. He has also done the same in another infamous murder case whereby 2 innocent men were hanged but I'll let George tell you all about that in his next book. The shame of it is that in this year of culture, Liverpool City Council have named Bert Balmer as one of the 800 people that shaped this city for what it is!


The Cameo Conspiracy really was that, a Conspiracy. George Skelly is a hero as far as I am concerned and his book is brilliant.

[ChrisGeorge]

I never met Charles Connolly unfortunately but I believe that he was a very nice man, a gentle giant who wasn't bitter but wanted the truth to be told. George Skelly will tell you the same as will Lou Santangeli who were both instrumental in reviewing and presenting buried evidence that subsequently overturned the convictions. You must also read the Appeal notes at

Search results for: kelly (http://www.ccrc.gov.uk/es/esearch.asp?start=0&perPage=10&summary=yes&sort=rank&col=CCRC&search=kelly)

Balmer lied and the appeal judges have recognised that. He has also done the same in another infamous murder case whereby 2 innocent men were hanged but I'll let George tell you all about that in his next book. The shame of it is that in this year of culture, Liverpool City Council have named Bert Balmer as one of the 800 people that shaped this city for what it is!


The Cameo Conspiracy really was that, a Conspiracy. George Skelly is a hero as far as I am concerned and his book is brilliant.

Hello Chris and burkhilly

While I can't condone what was evidently done, i.e., the "fitting up" of Charles Connolly and George Kelly as the men responsible for the murders at the Cameo Cinema, in a way I kind of understand the way it happened. That is, that the Liverpool police wanted to achieve a quick resolution to the crime, to eradicate what they saw as the introduction of American-style gangster gun crime on Merseyside. So thus, Kelly and Connolly seem to have been made the scapegoats in this situation. That's no excuse for what was done to them but it does kind of explain what occurred. The ironic thing though of course is that the actual crime of 1949 at the Cameo Cinema in Wavertree seems very small and insignificant compared to what has been happening more recently in Liverpool. Hopefully today's crime also can be eradicated, though without hopefully bending the rules of justice!

All the best

Chris

[Chris48]

Hello Chris and burkhilly

While I can't condone what was evidently done, i.e., the "fitting up" of Charles Connolly and George Kelly as the men responsible for the murders at the Cameo Cinema, in a way I kind of understand the way it happened. That is, that the Liverpool police wanted to achieve a quick resolution to the crime, to eradicate what they saw as the introduction of American-style gangster gun crime on Merseyside. So thus, Kelly and Connolly seem to have been made the scapegoats in this situation. That's no excuse for what was done to them but it does kind of explain what occurred. The ironic thing though of course is that the actual crime of 1949 at the Cameo Cinema in Wavertree seems very small and insignificant compared to what has been happening more recently in Liverpool. Hopefully today's crime also can be eradicated, though without hopefully bending the rules of justice!

All the best

Chris

Hi Chris,

I don't know if it was the crime that was seen as insignificant or if it was Kelly and Connolly that were considered so. They were fitted up and then they got a certain kind of justice that had never been heard of before whereby co-accused had their trials split and Connolly either faced 10 years or certain execution. There has been a lot of rubbish written about Kelly. Whittington -Egan is one of the culprits who has not apologised for what he said in his book "Liverpool Roundabout". George Kelly - The Little Caesar of Lime Street - What a load of rubbish. He was a small time crook and that was all.

Balmer recieved the Kings Police and Fire Service medal in 1950 after this and because of this case. He also got the O.B.E. in 1961. I have personally tried to have those awards rescinded but the Home Office said that they cannot be posthumously withdrawn.

[Mark R]

Hopefully today's crime also can be eradicated, though without hopefully bending the rules of justice!

Chris

I fear that will not happen though Chris. Especially when you see the 'fitting up' of Barry George for the murder of Jill Dando...

[Ged]

in a way I kind of understand the way it happened. That is, that the Liverpool police wanted to achieve a quick resolution to the crime, to eradicate what they saw as the introduction of American-style gangster gun crime on Merseyside.

I'm sorry Chris but I can't see that fitting up two innocent men and leaving the real gun culprits on the street at large is solving anything. That's like saying jailing Billy bloggs for the Yorkshire ripper murders would have prevented Sutcliffe carrying on his merry way. The gunman/men knew hanging was a probability if caught.

[burkhilly]

Chris 48

The informtion on Charles Connolly is heresay, because I know that other people described him as a gentle giant.

I totally agree that both these men were set up by the police at that time.

I am absolutely facinated by cases of criminal misjustice, and have spent hours reading judgements on the CCRC website, including GK/CC decision, when the orginal verdict was overturned as it was unsafe.

As I said in my first post the Cameo crime facinates me and it really is a travesty of justice that one man was hanged, whilst the other was in prison for a decade and then spent years trying to clear his name.

[Chris48]

burkhilly,

welcome to the Cameo fascination club and the George Skelly appreciation society! Its compelling isnt it and it makes me wonder if any of the main players are still alive. Balmer died in 1970 and Jackie Dickson is believed to be dead having moved back to Manchester. Northam is rumoured to have opened a garage in Wallasey but as for the rest such as Graham and and the Johnsons, who knows?

[burkhilly]

burkhilly,

welcome to the Cameo fascination club and the George Skelly appreciation society! Its compelling isnt it and it makes me wonder if any of the main players are still alive. Balmer died in 1970 and Jackie Dickson is believed to be dead having moved back to Manchester. Northam is rumoured to have opened a garage in Wallasey but as for the rest such as Graham and and the Johnsons, who knows?




I think it's doubtful if any of the main players are still with us, and therefore we'll never know what exactly happened in 1949, wouldn't it be brilliant if someone came forward with definitive evidence.

Saddo that I am I've been to Webster Road, and actually know someone who lives there. I told them about the murders, but she wasn't that interested. I've also been and looked at the various pubs mentioned in GS's book. One by one the pubs seem to be closing and some cases demolished.

I'm not generally facinated by murder just when coupled with injustice.

[Chris48]

I think it's doubtful if any of the main players are still with us, and therefore we'll never know what exactly happened in 1949, wouldn't it be brilliant if someone came forward with definitive evidence.

Saddo that I am I've been to Webster Road, and actually know someone who lives there. I told them about the murders, but she wasn't that interested. I've also been and looked at the various pubs mentioned in GS's book. One by one the pubs seem to be closing and some cases demolished.

I'm not generally facinated by murder just when coupled with injustice.

Me too. I've even photographed them all! You may be suprised who is still alive from old cases like that. Can't say too much just in case the Slemen appreciation society are about.

[Paddy]

My dad knew George and when he had a pint he would go on and on about him being hung. Now my dad was never in with the criminals or the hard cases and I think it is a good indication, that the oral tradition that kept George?s memory alive was the unassuming Liverpool folklore. So who really hung George? Public opinion I think played the biggest part. The Liverpool Echo had George labeled from the outset and they created a myth that George was the little Caesar of the underworld. I think those who knew George would have challenged that view, people like my Dad who knew him for who and what he was. Georges biggest crime is it seems was to be a smart dresser. I think the book I read in Liverpool Central library sums it all up. The night before they hung him his dad had the last words with him and he said to George ?did you do it lad? and George said ?NO? that?s good enough for me and most Liverpool people.

[Latinlovely]

Hi

My name's Emma Gill and George Kelly's my late Great Uncle. He was my Grandma's brother. I am doing a lot of research at the moment into the case. I have just discovered this website and have read some of the members' comments regarding my Uncle Georgie. I am sure I can rely on the knowledge and warmth of all you scoucers with this most importantly if any of you know of any details of the case being made into a film etc.

There is an awful lot that I do know, privately within my family and I wish sometimes it were known publicly of the mental torment and heartbreak endured to my great grandparents and grandparents and great uncles during the trial and after Uncle Georgie's execution. To this day we still carry the scars and heartache in many different ways.

I know there is still a lot of interest in the Cameo Cinema Murder in Liverpool. I don't live in the City but am up there regularly and follow the Mighty Reds all the time. Fingers crossed with Barca next month!!

I look forward to hearing from anyone who has any thoughts.

All the best.

Emma Gill


Hello I'm brand new here so I hope I'm doing this right.
My aunt was seventeen when she had a relationship with Kelly (yes I know he was married)and she has since died. She told me that once he took her back to his mothers house for tea where he had made her a cake and had attempted to ''tidy up'' because she was coming . She was very touched by this and smiled recalling that lots of people thought he was very tough and considered ''hard''. My uncle was very concerned about the relationship considering his reputation and warned Kelly off several times. Probably not very useful information but it just shows a side of Kelly that people didn't see. When my aunt died there was a little diary among her effects with a panel cut out of the front with his name written on it .

[CanadianLad]

wow.. all sounds amazing, I've just been reading a book (Canadian) of a similar story,, read a book called "Cameo Conspiracy". Was just wondering was there ever an investigation done on the two men murdered. Maybe they were into something?

Hi

My name's Emma Gill and George Kelly's my late Great Uncle. He was my Grandma's brother. I am doing a lot of research at the moment into the case. I have just discovered this website and have read some of the members' comments regarding my Uncle Georgie. I am sure I can rely on the knowledge and warmth of all you scoucers with this most importantly if any of you know of any details of the case being made into a film etc.

There is an awful lot that I do know, privately within my family and I wish sometimes it were known publicly of the mental torment and heartbreak endured to my great grandparents and grandparents and great uncles during the trial and after Uncle Georgie's execution. To this day we still carry the scars and heartache in many different ways.

I know there is still a lot of interest in the Cameo Cinema Murder in Liverpool. I don't live in the City but am up there regularly and follow the Mighty Reds all the time. Fingers crossed with Barca next month!!

I look forward to hearing from anyone who has any thoughts.

All the best.

Emma Gill

[CanadianLad]

I just read the book on your Uncle. They ever pin the real murderers? Was there ever an investigation into the two men murdered? Maybe the guys working at the Cameo were into something? The book really got me and I'd love to know anything that was "kept under the table". Just wanted to add how happy I was to see both me exhonerated for something they didn't do...

Hi Chris my name is Peter Connolly (charlies newphew) I would like to have a chat with you

[CanadianLad]

I am fascinated... love to hear more heresay and what people at the time thought? What's this all about "Little Ceaser of Lime Street" stuff?

[Ged]

Why would there be an investigation into the victims who were in there just doing their job and killed?

[Paddy]

The Liverpool echo created that label. George was a very smart dresser and liked to look good for the ladies his family sold fruit and veg on a stall down town. George was a small time jack the lad character. The label was powerful and the public perception of a big time villian facing the gallows was created.

[CanadianLad]

Can you or anyone please tell me what this "Little Ceaser" thing was? Did they start calling George Kelly that after or before the trial? Sounds kinda biased to me? Did the newspapers start calling him that? The more I read the more interested I am...


Hi

My name's Emma Gill and George Kelly's my late Great Uncle. He was my Grandma's brother. I am doing a lot of research at the moment into the case. I have just discovered this website and have read some of the members' comments regarding my Uncle Georgie. I am sure I can rely on the knowledge and warmth of all you scoucers with this most importantly if any of you know of any details of the case being made into a film etc.

There is an awful lot that I do know, privately within my family and I wish sometimes it were known publicly of the mental torment and heartbreak endured to my great grandparents and grandparents and great uncles during the trial and after Uncle Georgie's execution. To this day we still carry the scars and heartache in many different ways.

I know there is still a lot of interest in the Cameo Cinema Murder in Liverpool. I don't live in the City but am up there regularly and follow the Mighty Reds all the time. Fingers crossed with Barca next month!!

I look forward to hearing from anyone who has any thoughts.

All the best.

Emma Gill

[CanadianLad]

sorry, didn't mean to offend,, just never anywhere did i see a motive outside of the 50quid is all... no motive was ever mentioned


Why would there be an investigation into the victims who were in there just doing their job and killed?

[SteH]

They ever pin the real murderers? ..

When Kelly was pardoned in 2003 the police said they wouldnt be re-opening the case, I suppose even 50+ years later they wouldnt want to admit a fit up was done.

[burkhilly]

I'e read as much as I can about the "Cameo Murders". It wasn't them IMO. They were "fitted up" by the Police with false testimony and evidence. George Kelly was hung and Charles Connolly suffered for the rest of his life. Their convictions were quashed as unsafe.

Read the "Herbert Balmer" thread on this site, he was the senior police officer in the case.

[captain kong]

Hi , I have just read the interesting comments you have all written about the `Cameo Murders`.
I was involved, in a way, from day one.
I was in my house when the the door burst open and Balmer and his men stormed in and searched upstairs and down while Balmer held me by the throat slapping my face. They thought my brother was a suspect, he was on his way to Japan on a ship at the time. They kept my parents in the Police Station all night being questioned about the where abouts of my brother, they did not believe he was on his way out East. This was proved two weeks later when a letter arrived home, confirming where he was. The Police admitted that was correct, no apology was given after Mother and Dad had two weeks without sleep. They were told a man had confessed to the killings. This was one of the Johnson Brothers. He was aquited after being defended by Rose Heilbron KC.
I sailed with Charles Connolly`s father on the `GEORGIC`on a five month trip to Australia and the far East in 1955. We got to be friends and he told me that Charles was completely innocent. He said that Balmer forced him into a "Confession" with the threat of a death sentence if he didnt. This was just after George Kelly was convicted and sentenced to death, after being defended by Rose Heilbron, KC.
At this time Charles was serving his ten year sentence in Wakefield Top Security Prison.
A few years later, Charles told me he shared a cell with the killer of PC Miles, Christopher Craig, whose partner in the crime was Bentley, who was hanged for the murder that Craig committed.
In November 1956, I was in Melbourne, Australia, on a ship, the Dunedin Star.

A Liverpool bum, known as a `beachy`, came on board and was bumming food and supping our beer that we had brought back on board, the pubs shut at six pm in those days so we got carry outs and drank in the messroom.
This bum was sleeping in the messroom, eating and drinking for free. He was getting very objectionable, no one liked him. He had stowed away on a ship to Australia and spent his time on a ship and then when it sailed he went aboard another.
One night he got hold of one of my beer bottles and began to drink it. I gripped his wrist and I said I would break it if he didnt let go.
He threatened to kill me and said he had "done it before and got away with it".
I said who was that, and he replied he "had killed two men at the Cameo".
Now this was more than seven and a half years after and 12000 miles away.
and of all the people he had to say it to was me.
I dived over the table smashed him to the deck and battered him. All hands were dragging me off him. Whats the matter some one said. He killed two men at the Cameo I told them, but no one knew anything about the murders, most of the crew were from London and Glasgow. It was a sheer coincidence that it was me that he told. and even I do not come from Liverpool and have never lived in Liverpool.
I dragged him out on deck and threw him down the gangway. In hind sight I should have held on to him and found out who he really was but in the heat of the moment and being young I didnt think about it.
A few years later I was introduced to Charles Connolly and we eventually became very good friends, after I had passed various tests. Charles had been used by a lot of people in the past and so was always very wary of people, until they proved they were genuine. I spent a long time searching around the streets and pubs in Preston for the fellow called Graham who had lived there. Charles wanted him to confess he had told lies for Balmer. There was no sign of him so we thought he must have died or moved on. A friend in Age Concern also tried to search for him but he wasnt on their books.
I also spent a lot of time searching around the Trafford area of Manchester looking for Jackie Dickson, I could not find her, I believe she was a consumptive and could have died at an early age.
Charles also introduced me to his very good friend Lou Santangeli, who was a man who was impressed by Charles`s` sincerity, and decided to help Charles in his quest to clear his name.
A couple of writers wanted to write the story of the Cameo Murders. Charles wasnt too impressed at first.. He thought they were trying to make names for themselves at his expence.
I met George Skelly and we got on very well with each other and then Charles co-operated. George Skelly was the only man that Charles trusted to write the story. He wrote the book, "Cameo Conspiracy" after a lot of very detailed investigation. No one else has written the story the way that Charles would have wanted, the True story.
A few people tried, I had to warn one writer, that Charles was still alive, he thought he was dead, he was writing from old newspaper cuttings and knew nothing about it at all, he was implying that Charles and George Kelly were gangsters. I soon put a stop to him. So not all the books written about the case are authentic. Stick with the "Cameo Conspiracy"
Unfortunately Charles died in Norris Green ASDA whilst out shopping, he had been experiencing a lot of stress with various investigations in his quest to clear his name. Charles was a Gentleman. I am still in contact with his widow, a lovely lady who didnt deserve the heart ache.
When the appeal went to London I wrote a statement about the Liverpool Bum who I had battered in Melbourne, who had confessed to me that he had done it, and gave it to the Solicitors as evidence that he could possibly be the original murderer.
Afterwards a lady wrote to say she had thoughts that a long deceased relative may have been the killer, his description was very similar to the `bum` I met in Australiia.
After all these 60 years, there are very few people alive now who had any connection to the Murders.

At last the appeal went through and Charles and George Kelly were finally cleared of the murders. Unforunately too late for them both.
George Kelly was exhumed from under the car park at Walton Gaol and had a funeral service at the Roman Catholic Cathedral. George Skelly and I went there and the family refused us entry, they had security men on the door. Very sad, we were part of the enquiry to clear his name.
We took photos of the funeral as they came out after the service and left in their cars.
Now George Skelly has a lot of work on in other investigations and I am sure you will find out the results when he feels he can release a statement.
I hope I have covered some ground into this very sad and tragic story.
Brian Aspinall.

[burkhilly]

Thanks for posting Brian. I've read George Skelly's book. It was brilliant. I remember reading the chapter concerning your family's involvement - it must have been awful for your parents.

Without doubt both George and Charlie were victims of a dreadful miscarriage of justice.

[Paddy]

I grew up with this story too and read the book with interest. I think that for alot of people the very fact George was framed has left mistrust even after all these years.

[captain kong]

Thats right,
There is such a lot more to the story, it seems to go on for ever. I have had it with me for all these nearly 60 years.
One or two odd items of coincidences.

Balmer was a patient in bed in the Hospital, Tina, Charles`s daughter was the Sister on the same ward looking after him, Charles went to visit Tina at work and in the first bed was Balmer, he turned white when he saw Charles entering the ward.

My son was a Doctor in the operation theatre in Liverpool Royal and Tina was the Theatre Nurse.
Unfortunately Tina died a couple of years ago.

Charles never ever knew George Kelly, he swore to me of that fact.

He told me that Balmer is the only man to commit the `Perfect Murder`.

He got the law to kill them for him.

[Ged]

Great recollections Brian, thanks for sharing.

No offence taken CanadianLad, just couldn't see where you were coming from as the motive seemed to be plain robbery.

[captain kong]

As far as I can be sure, I dont think any money was stolen on that night,the fifty pounds in takings was still in the office, Charles was charged with Robbery and Conspiracy to Rob even though no money was robbed and was sentenced to ten years.

I have just found a cutting from the distant past. It is from a book that some idiot has written and hasnt got a clue about the facts.

Quote............
George Kelly, 28 years old, thug, and titular head of the Kelly Gang, a bunch of mainly Irish ruffians dredged from the slums of Liverpool`s dockland and Charles Connolly, 26 year old member of Kelly`s gang. Connolly had been delegated to act as lookout while Kelly committed the Robbery, but on hearing shots he fled from the scene in panic,........Un Quote.

These distortions and lies have caused all the controversy over the years and have hampered the quest for the truth.

Also I still have the newspaper cuttings from the Liverpool papers of the trials in 1950

[Paddy]

The Liverpool Echo had him demonized to such an extent the second trial was a formality he was for the rope in the publics eye. My dad always went on about him after a pint. I knew there was something in it.

[captain kong]

Charles Connolly, had a good service record in the Royal Navy during the war on the Malta Convoys.
He was also the Royal Navy boxing champion, if my memory serves me right, he had 27 unbeaten fights, he fought Randolph Turpin and beat him , Turpin went on to become World Champion.
He was a big man, and well disciplined, as Boxers are and after serving in a wartime service.
According to prosecution allegations, he was George Kelly`s `lacky`.
Can you imagine a man like that being told what to do by George Kelly?? who was a much smaller man. He was reported to have been delegated to act as a look out, and fled in panic on hearing shots. Can you again imagine a man like Charles doing that??.
He was obviously set up by Balmer.

[CanadianLad]

Brian, thank, I rememeber that chapter in the book and your life quite clearly. disgusting they never apologized to your family. I'd love to see some of those idiotic newspaper clippings. "Kelly Gang" how stupid is that. I thought guns weren't even that popular or even used in those days.. it's funny you mentioned the guy who claimed to do the murder was far off to sea/another country and one of the witnesses of the day claimed there was a trio at the docks looking for a way out of liverpool during the Cameo investigation....
The book never mentioned it was actually Balmer grabbing by the throat, was it actually him? And I'm dying to ask, was he really having a thing with Doris, George Kelly's girl?

[captain kong]

Hi Canadian Lad.
Yes it was Balmer who came to my house and got me by the throat in is left hand and slapped me around the face with his right, he wore brown leather gloves.
I cannot say if he was having a `thing` with Doris, George Skelly did a lot of research with a lot of the characters that were around and I would say that what George wrote was the true story, the only true story written.

Here is a photo of George Kelly`s Funeral, at the Roman Catholic Cathedral.
George Skelly and I attended but they would not let us in. they had security guards on the doors and the Daughter refused us entry. Ironic seeing that we did the campaining for him to be cleared and for him to be exhumed for a Christian Burial. We stood outside in freezing cold wind and rain for an hour or so. I then took the photos when they came out.

[burkhilly]

I remember the day of GK's funeral and how cold and wet it was. I didn't go to the cathedral, but knew George Skelly was attending in the hope of being allowed entrance. I also know that he and others outside were barred from entering. It's a real shame that the people responsible for finally clearing GK's name were not allowed to attend.


I can only assume it was for mercenary reasons, if you know what I mean!

[captain kong]

Yes , I do know what you mean. Sad.

[CanadianLad]

ahh, you mean reporters and stuff who had no business being there... I think. And again,, I read the book, this case really caught me... thanks again for posting... seemed to me like this Balmer guy was more desperate that evil.. either way what was done in the end was evil..

[captain kong]

Hi,
George and I didnt see any reporters or any one else just the two of us stood outside in the wind and rain.

[burkhilly]

Can confirm there were no reporters there. Believe we were talking about "others" who could alledgy benefit from the unsafe verdict.

[CanadianLad]

Hey guys, who is the fella that supposedly found the missing statement (that someone else did the murders) that Balmer kept hidden. Is it true the decided to pursue it over a dare/ dart game? Sorry, just hearing so many great stories. Heard he met Connolly when Connolly was a bouncer or something...

[CanadianLad]

also... I've heard so much about Balmer. So really what was his deal?.. was he just a total ******* or one of those pig headed morons who didn't care who he nailed as long as he nailed some one? or was a he a guy who just did what ever the bosses told him?

[Alice Hutton]

My name is Alice Hutton. I am a freelance journalist writing on the cameo murders and I am looking to get in touch with Emma Gill- I see it has been two years since she posted here but I would be grateful if anyone could put me in touch with her. I am also looking for as much information as possible- I have read Shortall's and Skelly's books but does anyone here have an email for them?

Alice
www.alicetalks.wordpress.com
Alice.Hutton.1@city.ac.uk

[burkhilly]

Hey guys, who is the fella that supposedly found the missing statement (that someone else did the murders) that Balmer kept hidden. Is it true the decided to pursue it over a dare/ dart game? Sorry, just hearing so many great stories. Heard he met Connolly when Connolly was a bouncer or something...



Lou Santagelleni (surname incorrectly spelt sorry) met Charles Connolly, who told Lou the story. Lou S is a solicitor who got to know CC very well and believed that he was not involved in the crime. It was Lou who had access to some police files and came across the missing statement.

This is according to George Skelly's fantastic book, the Cameo Conspiracy - which I believe. Lou and George were both at the Cathedral when George Kelly was laid to rest. However, neither were invited to the service, which was invitation only. A real shame that the two who were most involved in gaining the "unsafe conviction" were not invited to the funeral.

[burkhilly]

also... I've heard so much about Balmer. So really what was his deal?.. was he just a total ******* or one of those pig headed morons who didn't care who he nailed as long as he nailed some one? or was a he a guy who just did what ever the bosses told him?



He was a policeman of his day. From what I've read he used any means to get a conviction. He allegedy was on the take. He was a nasty piece of work by all accounts. This is all heresy and based on what I've read........and to be fair the man's not here to defend himself or his apparently dubious methods.

[burkhilly]

Just seen this on the BBC Website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/7966136.stm

[Famous Scouser]

Commendable and does need to be looked at, but its a pity that money seems to be the drive behind it.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2009/03/27/mps-join-liverpool-cameo-murders-justice-bid-100252-23246679/


And it wasnt the family that cleared George Kellys name, it was George Skelly and Lou Santangeli.

[Famous Scouser]

Lou Santagelleni (surname incorrectly spelt sorry) met Charles Connolly, who told Lou the story. Lou S is a solicitor who got to know CC very well and believed that he was not involved in the crime. It was Lou who had access to some police files and came across the missing statement.

This is according to George Skelly's fantastic book, the Cameo Conspiracy - which I believe. Lou and George were both at the Cathedral when George Kelly was laid to rest. However, neither were invited to the service, which was invitation only. A real shame that the two who were most involved in gaining the "unsafe conviction" were not invited to the funeral.

Lou is not a solicitor at all, he was a very successful businessman. Charles Connolly was a doorman greeter at the Derby lodge in Roby and met Lou who was a customer there. It so happened that they got talking about a case in the courts whereby somebody had been accused of a crime they didnt commit and Charles told Lou that he once was accused of a crime he didnt do. Then the story came out and Lou knew who he was etc.

Lou is a fascinating man and when he recites this story, its absolutely fascinating. If anyone is not convinced of Kelly and Connollys innocence, speak to Lou Santangeli !

[burkhilly]

Commendable and does need to be looked at, but its a pity that money seems to be the drive behind it.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2009/03/27/mps-join-liverpool-cameo-murders-justice-bid-100252-23246679/


And it wasnt the family that cleared George Kellys name, it was George Skelly and Lou Santangeli.


Totally agree with you! The daughter is a stepdaughter. I believe the women who George Kelly was living with at the time he was hanged is her mother. I could be totally wrong - but this is my recollection. I knew this was about compensation. Why should they get money out of this tragedy.
The two people who should be recognised are George Skelly and Lou Santageli, but I doubt either would be looking for some financial reward.

[Famous Scouser]

Totally agree with you! The daughter is a stepdaughter. I believe the women who George Kelly was living with at the time he was hanged is her mother. I could be totally wrong - but this is my recollection. I knew this was about compensation. Why should they get money out of this tragedy.
The two people who should be recognised are George Skelly and Lou Santageli, but I doubt either would be looking for some financial reward.

I assure you they are not.

[burkhilly]

I assure you they are not.

That goes without saying - George Skelly is a great bloke and from what I've heard and read so is Lou S. I was in email contact with GS for a while, and then lost my email address book after an IT melt down.


Do you know for sure about the "daughter"?

[Famous Scouser]

.

[CanadianLad]

the daughter of Doris O'Malley?

[Famous Scouser]

No, somebody else.

[Harryboy]

This is all confusing to me. the 2 books on the Cameo case seem to tell different stories. For example, Shortall's book seems to say Connolly was guilty. How can this be when he was cleared along with kelly in the appeal court

[Harryboy]

And why have the Kelly family dragged all of this up again? I thought the daughter had been compensated. Also, if the 2 men have been cleared 6 years ago, why are they now asking for a public Inquiry,What's there to inquire about?

[Famous Scouser]

Seems they want to enquire about money Harry. As for Shortall, your reading the wrong book. The definitive is "The Cameo conspiracy" by George Skelly.

Barry Shortalls book is incorrect, came after George Skellys and of course does not have the pedigree that the 1st book and its author has. The true story of the Cameo case is as outlined in "The Cameo Conspiracy" and nowhere else.

There is a myth that Charles Conolly turned Kings evidence and therefore Kelly must have committed the crime. Imagine, you are Charlie and I am Kelly. We get split into 2 and our cases are heard seperately. I get tried for murder, found guilty and sentenced to death. Next week its your turn to go on trial but your legal team approach you and suggest a deal that if you plead guilty to Robbery, then you will get 10 years. If you dont, you will be tried for murder and take your chances. What are you gonna do Harry................course you are, the same as what Charlie Connolly did!

[Harryboy]

Thanks for that Scouse. I've read the two books and i agree Skelly's is the best. So because of the won appeals i reckon Shortall must have been talking though his hat. and if the daughter has had the compo how can it be about money, unless the other relations are looking for the same.

[Paddy]

Thats how I remember it. The police paid connolly a visit in Gaol and the police told him that was the deal. I have read the book by Skelly and I am also versed in the oral account of the Kelly conspiracy and the role of the Liverpool echo. Kelly was labeled little ceaser of the underworld and portrayed as a big time gangster. The public where misled and the result was that Kelly in many peoples eyes was hung rightly thats why a pardon took so long. Regards an enquiry will the Kelly family seek help from Skelly? I think perhaps they should.

[burkhilly]

I wonder how many of the George Kelly's immediate family are still alive.

Does anyone know if Kathleen Hughes is George Kelly's biological child. My understanding is that he was never married, nor have I read of any children he fathered.

[Harryboy]

Think you've got your facts mixed up there Paddy.
The police had nothing to do with pressure on Connolly to plead guilty to robbery (even if no money was actually stolen). Skelly says in his book It was a deal made between the barristers and the judge, after Kelly had been sentenced to death. And this has been borne out by the Appeal Court if you read it.

[Harryboy]

Paddy, I don't think Skelly will be too keen to help the Kelly family now, especially, since mentioned elsewhere on this site by Famous Scouser, that they did not even say Thank You to him or Lou Santangeli for clearing Kelly's name, nor invite them to the funeral. And I wouldn't blame him. By the way, what do you mean by the "oral history" and the Echo?

[Famous Scouser]

I wonder how many of the George Kelly's immediate family are still alive.

Does anyone know if Kathleen Hughes is George Kelly's biological child. My understanding is that he was never married, nor have I read of any children he fathered.

Seems there are quite a few of them around but not necessarilly in the pool. He was married once though and it was short lived. No comment re his "daughter".

People really should avoid Shortalls book. It is nothing less than a badly written work of fiction that has perpetuated many false beliefs that surround the Cameo case . If you intend to read it, then you will be wasting your time. If you want the truth, read George Skellys book......if you can find a copy!

[Paddy]

Well by oral account I mean the oral tradition that comes from ordinary Liverpool folk. My Dad knew Kelly and would talk about him after a pint. He always gave me the impression that he had an underlying sympathy for the man. Well my Dad was not a gangster and he only hung about with labourers. He was a ship scaler and a coal man but him and people he knew, all knew George. In the time of the Cameo murder guns where quite rare. Some war surplus firearms were about but gun crime was not common. The creation of the gangster myth was where the Echo came in. The Liverpool public had a picture painted of Kelly as Liverpool?s top under world figure this label created by the Echo went along way to securing a conviction because the public saw him as a very sophisticated criminal. Regards the deal made with Connolly it has always been my understanding that changing his plea would avoid him going to the gallows?I think when people get appeals and walk a shadow often hangs over them. I think that is the case in quite a few celebrated cases. We might also like to believe that it is encouraged.

[Harryboy]

Thanks for the explanation Paddy.
And your dead right about the Echo. But I heard it was Balmer who invented the Little Caesar tag and gave it to the Papers in order to smear Kelly. Did your dad also know Jimmy Skelly and "Johny One" who according to The Cameo Conspiracy book, were Kelly's mates? And did you live around the Bullring?
Despite what you say about people "walking" from appeals, I think everyone now agrees that, after the Appeal Court's decision, and the lambasting of Balmer by the three judges, that Kelly and Connolly were truly innocent.
If you havent already done so, You really need to read the Court's official reasons for allowing the appeals.
I've heard that Balmer also done a carbon copy murder by framing Devlin and Burns 2 years later and that Skelly is doing a book on that case. because those two lads were surely murdered just like Kelly.

[burkhilly]

[QUOTE=Harryboy;166846]Thanks for the explanation Paddy.
And your dead right about the Echo. But I heard it was Balmer who invented the Little Caesar tag and gave it to the Papers in order to smear Kelly. Did your dad also know Jimmy Skelly and "Johny One" who according to The Cameo Conspiracy book, were Kelly's mates?





I knew "Johnny the One". We lived up in Croxteth for a while in Masonettes. We lived on the third floor and Johnny and his wife, Annie, lived on the ground. It was only after I lent my brother George Skelly's book, that we realised the connection.

Johnny the One was known by every one in the area. He died about 10/15 years ago and I know that George Skelly attended his funeral. He was a really funny man, who loved his ale. I wish I'd known about his connection to the Cameo murders, I would have loved to hear his view.

In another connection, Charles Connolly lived in St Oswalds House, Old Swan up to his death. I don't remember him at all, but a couple of people I know do. He kept himself to himself, and came across as quite miserable. Not surprising really given what he went through.

Liverpool really is like a small village at times!

[Paddy]

Well about my Dad knowing other townies I cannot answer. My observation was he was laid back. We did not live in the Bully and I was born in 54 in Warwick gardens. As I have said the oral tradition of the account of the Cameo murders has always differed from the official account. The point about the Echo label is important as I feel that people who really knew George were baffled by the account of his supposed notoriety. I hope the Devlin Burns case is investigated. These revelations give people more confidence in the legal system. We should not feel vulnerable about Law and order it is there to protect people. My consistent concern has always been where did the gun come from.

[Famous Scouser]

Well about my Dad knowing other townies I cannot answer. My observation was he was laid back. We did not live in the Bully and I was born in 54 in Warwick gardens. As I have said the oral tradition of the account of the Cameo murders has always differed from the official account. The point about the Echo label is important as I feel that people who really knew George were baffled by the account of his supposed notoriety. I hope the Devlin Burns case is investigated. These revelations give people more confidence in the legal system. We should not feel vulnerable about Law and order it is there to protect people. My consistent concern has always been where did the gun come from.

I think Whittington-Egan also has some explaining to do about comments he made appertaining to George Kelly in his book "Liverpool Roundabout".

[captain kong]

In another connection, Charles Connolly lived in St Oswalds House, Old Swan up to his death. I don't remember him at all, but a couple of people I know do. He kept himself to himself, and came across as quite miserable. Not surprising really given what he went through. [Burkhilly]

Charles lived in West Derby at the time of his death, he collapsed and died in ASDA in Norris Green on 18 April 1997.
I was a friend of Charles for many years.
Barry Shortall`s Book was not approved by Charles, he didnt want to know about Shortall so Shortall made up what information Charles would not give.
George Skelly was the only man that Charles trusted and approved of, to investigate and write the book "Cameo Conspiracy"
Charles was not a miserable man, he had a good sense of humour, but did not like people to take advantage of his "reputation". He was a very private man and you had to prove your good intentions before you became a friend.
I had several tests to go through, such as searching Preston for Graham, and around Trafford in Manchester for Jackie Dickson, before we became good friends and he was then able to confide in me. he told me all the story.
At the funeral of George Kelly only George Skelly and myself were stood outside the Cathedral in the rain, we were not allowed in, the security guards kept us out.

[Harryboy]

I'm sorry Paddy but you really perplex me. people should not be interested or put any value on the "oral accounts", which is another word for misinformation, rumour, myth and lies. As I've said you really do need to read the judgement of the Court of Appeal. Maybe someone on the forum can give you the link.
You also say you have read Skelly's book but still wonder where the gun came from.
Well if you really have read the book you would know exactly where the gun came from. And you would also have known, as I have explained to you, that the police had nothing whatever to do with Connolly;s change of plea.
As Skelly's book and the Appeal Court tells us, it was due to a legal conspiracy by the lawyers and the judge..

[Famous Scouser]

Has anyone heard of Shortall since? Maybe he's in hiding with embarassment!

Captain Kong, did you ever find any trace of Graham or Dickson? Somebody said that Northam owned a car repair garage in Wallasey and had a big house and a loada kids after the Cameo.

I wonder if the Johnson brothers are still alive?

[Famous Scouser]

I'm sorry Paddy but you really perplex me. people should not be interested or put any value on the "oral accounts", which is another word for misinformation, rumour, myth and lies. As I've said you really do need to read the judgement of the Court of Appeal. Maybe someone on the forum can give you the link.
You also say you have read Skelly's book but still wonder where the gun came from.
Well if you really have read the book you would know exactly where the gun came from. And you would also have known, as I have explained to you, that the police had nothing whatever to do with Connolly;s change of plea.
As Skelly's book and the Appeal Court tells us, it was due to a legal conspiracy by the lawyers and the judge..

Click on this link and it should show you the appeal notes at the top for Kelly and Connolly. Click on that link and it will take you to the PDF file.



http://www.ccrc.gov.uk/es/esearch.asp?start=0&perPage=10&summary=yes&sort=rank&col=CCRC&search=kelly&submit=Search

[Paddy]

Well harryboy oral tradtions keep communities alive. However you seem to smug for me perhaps you should write on the Echo if it bothers you that much.The part about the gun I dont understand I hav read the book evenso. Legal doccuments on the case might be interesting but looking into the Devlin Burns case wont give cause for ammendments roll on the oral tradition of scousers.

[Famous Scouser]

Legal doccuments on the case might be interesting but looking into the Devlin Burns case wont give cause for ammendments roll on the oral tradition of scousers.

How wrong you are matey. You don't know one half of it.

[Paddy]

I will let you dwell on the other half then!:)

[CanadianLad]

i think if you add up all the facts there is a common denominator between all involved... the boys got screwed... is it true Balmer, at one time, was a prosecutor before becoming a cop? Is it true this story and "Cameo Conspiracy" is finally being made into a feature film?

[captain kong]

Captain Kong, did you ever find any trace of Graham or Dickson? Somebody said that Northam owned a car repair garage in Wallasey and had a big house and a loada kids after the Cameo.

I wonder if the Johnson brothers are still alive? Famous Scouser

I searched Preston, for Graham, around his last known address, I went into his pub, White Horse, opposite his old house. When I went in and asked the landlord if he knew him, the pub emptied, the Landlord said they all thought I was a Policeman, so they all left. I had a friend in Age Consern in Preston, she searched all their records and there was no trace of him.
In Trafford I searched and asked questions in pubs,shops and a Chinese Chippy where she was once known to frequent but again to no avail. she may have died young as she was a consumptive.
I believe one of the Johnson brothers died a few years ago in a car park in the South of England. I have no idea of the whereabouts of `Stutty` Northern. I should think they will all be dead by now, it is 60 years ago, they wouild all be pushing late 80s to 90 years old by now.

The connection between the story of Burns and Devlin and the Cameo are very similar.
There are no plans at the moment to make a film of the case, when you make a film of a true story you have to consider the legal views of the relatives of the people involved. So maybe one day, but not at the moment.

[Harryboy]

I'm not smug Paddy, I'm just fed up with the "oral tradition" of Scousers which has been responsible over the years for the gossip, misconceptions, myths and lies about Kelly. e.g. the murder gun was buried in the coffin with his mother. And that Connolly turned Kings evidence. And that the police got Connolly to change his plea. I thought Scousers had moved on from this sort of rubbish, especially when George Skelly, who spent 5 years researching the case to find out the truth for his book, was proved right by the Court of Appeal. I don't think even Famous Scouser would agree with you.
It was legal documents (not Scouse "oral tradition")which finally cleared Kelly and Connolly. And it's a good job we have people like Skelly and Lou Santangeli who are prepared to spend years to get at the truth, rather than leave it to gossip and rumour. You seem to have been reading the wrong book.

[Famous Scouser]

Captain Kong, did you ever find any trace of Graham or Dickson? Somebody said that Northam owned a car repair garage in Wallasey and had a big house and a loada kids after the Cameo.

I wonder if the Johnson brothers are still alive? Famous Scouser

I searched Preston, for Graham, around his last known address, I went into his pub, White Horse, opposite his old house. When I went in and asked the landlord if he knew him, the pub emptied, the Landlord said they all thought I was a Policeman, so they all left. I had a friend in Age Consern in Preston, she searched all their records and there was no trace of him.
In Trafford I searched and asked questions in pubs,shops and a Chinese Chippy where she was once known to frequent but again to no avail. she may have died young as she was a consumptive.
I believe one of the Johnson brothers died a few years ago in a car park in the South of England. I have no idea of the whereabouts of `Stutty` Northern. I should think they will all be dead by now, it is 60 years ago, they wouild all be pushing late 80s to 90 years old by now.

The connection between the story of Burns and Devlin and the Cameo are very similar.
There are no plans at the moment to make a film of the case, when you make a film of a true story you have to consider the legal views of the relatives of the people involved. So maybe one day, but not at the moment.

There is however a screenplay being written so maybe one day we will see it on the silver screen, but then poetic licence maybe as damaging as good ole "Scouse oral tradition".

Even if there isn't anyone still alive, relatives would be good to hear from.

[burkhilly]

Charles lived in West Derby at the time of his death, he collapsed and died in ASDA in Norris Green on 18 April 1997.
I was a friend of Charles for many years.
Barry Shortall`s Book was not approved by Charles, he didnt want to know about Shortall so Shortall made up what information Charles would not give.
George Skelly was the only man that Charles trusted and approved of, to investigate and write the book "Cameo Conspiracy"
Charles was not a miserable man, he had a good sense of humour, but did not like people to take advantage of his "reputation". He was a very private man and you had to prove your good intentions before you became a friend.
I had several tests to go through, such as searching Preston for Graham, and around Trafford in Manchester for Jackie Dickson, before we became good friends and he was then able to confide in me. he told me all the story.
At the funeral of George Kelly only George Skelly and myself were stood outside the Cathedral in the rain, we were not allowed in, the security guards kept us out.[/QUOTE]




I didn't know Charles.........and the miserable description was from a teenagers's point of view. Miserable is totally wrong and your description of private man is correct. I didn't mean any offence, so please accept my apologies. The poor man had enough to deal with in his life without me making unfounded comments.

[Paddy]

I beg to differ I agree that some romancing goes on and that the truth becomes uncertain. However the oral tradition I refer too stems from the perception of false consciousness, and the awareness of suppression. For nearly two decades people in this country believed that the Birmingham six were guilty and also the Guildford four. However on their release perceptions change about how forensic evidence was used. The papers did not report the Irish community belief that the people involved were innocent yet in some quarters it was known. The oral tradition of suppressed people always acknowledges these things regardless of the dominant ideology. How many people in Liverpool believe that Michael Shields is innocent regardless of the official version? So you cannot discount what ordinary people hold as true or perceive as injustice. We could pack out the libraries with swats yet unmanufactured public opinion has to be considered an asset.

[Harryboy]

Once again Paddy you are wide of the mark. "Uncertainty" and "romancing" is no substitute for the Unvarnished Truth backed up by evidence. Once again, if you had read Skelly's book (which I now seriously doubt) you would know that 99% or the public, including Scousers, believed for years that Kelly and Connolly were guilty. And we now know how wrong they all were!

[Paddy]

I feel your inability to read and understand the substance of my comment stultifies the debate. I don't have a limited understanding of false consciousness and I certainly dont mislead.

[Harryboy]

I feel your inability to read and understand the substance of my comment stultifies the debate. I don't have a limited understanding of false consciousness and I certainly dont mislead.

Paddy, I do understand only too well what you are doing. You have inverted the argument and used selective cases (e.g. The Guildford 4 and Birmingham6) in order to convince us that the public instinct and conception is more valid than hard legal evidence. But I'm sorry your ploy does not work. The reason being that even in those cases, as in the Cameo case, it was the discovery of new evidence by committed people searching for proof - not bar-room gossips and rumour-mongers- which overturned those convictions. And by the way, I did not accuse you of misleading anyone. I just think your logic and your perceptions are a little opaque.

[CanadianLad]

just wondering if it's urban legend or true that Lou Santangeli actually tried to get into the hearins in 1950 but it was full and he couldn't watch the hearings?

[Paddy]

Well the thing about all this is that George was hung. He has now been reprieved but when you?re dead, as in shaken off ones mortal coil. You can not collect your personals items and skip down the road to your waiting girlfriend .Legal documents don?t guarantee other transgressions as the law is often abused. I think the legal system in this country is a good one. Having said that I am not writing from Belmarsh prison as a suspected Muslim extremist. Getting back to the topic of oral tradition it would be fair to say that we all take heed in some way or other of differing opinions e.g. What happened to the pig and sausage at Litherland a once famous landmark.

[Harryboy]

Once again, wide of the mark Paddy. ...."when we have shuffled (not "shaken") off this mortal coil" - Shaksepeare.
But finito to this. We are obviously on different wavelengths!

[Harryboy]

There was a letter in the Echo last night from George Skelly about the Cameo case. He reckons the daughter and the two nephews, who are behind the latest move for an Inquiry, never campaigned for Kelly's innocence - and I guess he should know because he said he had interviewed them during the research for his book.
I think, he rightly gave Santangeli the credit for the quashing of the convictions of Kelly and Connolly. And I've heard, on this site i think, that they never even said Thank you to him!

[CanadianLad]

Hi all

I received an email recently from George Skelly, author the Cameo Conspiracy, telling me that the screenplay of his version of the Cameo story is now with movie producers, and the film's development is going ahead.

Emma, knowing that George's father, James Skelly, was a friend of the wrongfully convicted and hanged George Kelly, I am sure that the film portrayal will help to set the record right about what happened at the Cameo theatre and in the aftermath.

Best regards

Chris

Yes you're right, I heard a production is now in full gear... finally!!!

[Famous Scouser]

Yes you're right, I heard a production is now in full gear... finally!!!

No. No production in full gear at all. George Skelly hasnt finished the screenplay yet.

[Harryboy]

I was introduced to Mr Skelly at a reception on the Wirral last week. We had a fascinating talk. He told me he is working all hours of the night on completing his book on the Cranborne Road murder, and simultaneously completing his screenplay of The Cameo Conspiracy. And, at the same time is involved in a lengthy legal process on another miscarriage of justice. When asked by a colleague how he found the time, he just replied, "With great difficulty". I'll bet!

[Famous Scouser]

What a guy!

[CanadianLad]

sorry, just heard producer Colin McKeown was producing a film about it... looking forward to George's film.

[CanadianLad]

anyone know the exact address of the Cameo, was it above (north of) the Garrick Street split, cause in the book they say he went south towards Smithdown street.. but in one of the pick it shows Garrrick street to what looks like the left.. any help?

[Ged]

A good friend, my street directory, has informed me that it was addressed at Webster Road, next door to 92. The cinema didn't have a number because it was a converted church and churches were never numbered. It was on the corner of Bird Street.

[CanadianLad]

you're the best, thank you

[captain kong]

Emma, knowing that George's father, James Skelly, was a friend of the wrongfully convicted and hanged George Kelly, I am sure that the film portrayal will help to set the record right about what happened at the Cameo theatre and in the aftermath.

Best regards

Chris

James Skelly was George`s eldest brother, not his father, who was with George Kelly on the day of the murders.
cheers.
Kong.

[Harryboy]

Since Yo Liverpool has recently been "modernised", I cant access it from my Google list. Anyone any answers as to how to quickly access it?

[Harryboy]

Kong, do you mean that Skelly's father and not his brother was with Kelly on the day of the murder? That puts the whole defence/alibi in tatters!
According to the book Jimmy Skelly was supposed to have been with Kelly all day and part of the night, not Skelly's dad, whose name was Johnnie.

[Ged]

Since Yo Liverpool has recently been "modernised", I cant access it from my Google list. Anyone any answers as to how to quickly access it?

Once you're clicked on it, right click and save a short cut to your desk top.

[CanadianLad]

and I'm sure if Colin Mckeown is doing the film it'll be great..

[captain kong]

James Skelly was George`s eldest brother, not his father, who was with George Kelly on the day of the murders.
cheers.
Kong.

HarryBoy
Please read AGAIN.

Jimmy Skelly was Georges ELDER BROTHER, NOT HIS FATHER.
He was with George Kelly on the day of the murders.

Do I make myself clear????@???

[Harryboy]

Sorry Kong, but you need to check your English grammar. Your misplacement of the commas, makes it read that Skelly's father was with him on the day!

[Harryboy]

Thanks for the tip Ged.

[captain kong]

Harry,
I think anyone of intelligence could understand what I said about that.

If you can read all my posts on this subject I think you will find that I know more about the Cameo Murders than you could ever ever know.
Kong

[fortinian]

Woah Kong, chill man. Harry wasn't insulting your intelligence or your knowledge of the Cameo Murders... he was simply saying that when you typed up this bit:


James Skelly was George`s eldest brother, not his father, who was with George Kelly on the day of the murders.


It reads as if you mean that his father was with him on the day of the murders. You do not, of course but your placement of commas and general syntax make this a confusing statement.

What you meant to say was;

"James Skelly was with George on the day of the murders, he was George's eldest brother, not his father."

Harry was just being a bit of a grammar pedant.

[captain kong]

Thanks for that Fortinian,
Some of us did not have the advantage of an education. There was a war on, there was the Blitz, most of us never went to school, I didnt learn to read and write until I was ten years old. But I do have a Masters for all that.
I educated myself.

[Harryboy]

A Masters in what, Kong? Which university?
You say you know more about the Cameo case than i will ever know.
Would you say you know more than Mr Skelly, who - as I've mentioned in an earlier post - I met several days ago in Wirral and who I spent quite a while with discussing the Cameo case?
There is a best-selling book called, I think EATS, SHOOTS & LEAVES, which explains how the wrong use of punctuation can drastically alter what you are trying to say. That's all I was saying. And, Fortinian, that is not being a grammar pedant. That is championing the correct and unambiguous Use Of English. And by the way Kong, I left primary school at the age of 15. I even failed my 11+. So you are in good company!

[Bernie]

Harryboy, I suggest that you read this entire thread before making stupid posts like that. You might learn something about Capt. Kong and his personal involvement in the case. I think it is rude to correct what people write too. Ask for clarification by all means but don't bring your superior attitude here.

[AntiPathos]

Gentlemen, please...

[Harryboy]

Harryboy, I suggest that you read this entire thread before making stupid posts like that. You might learn something about Capt. Kong and his personal involvement in the case. I think it is rude to correct what people write too. Ask for clarification by all means but don't bring your superior attitude here.



Bernie, if you read he thread you will see that i did in fact ask for clarification. but all i got in return was insult. then Fortinian had to explain matters on my behalf. I am aware of Kongs involvement in the case, thats why i was puzzled as to what he said and the way he said it. I am however also aware of Mr Skelly's greater involvement in the case, and he is the one I was talking to. If you read the previous posts again, you will realise that I was not the one trying to be superior. As for correcting people, that is even more neccessary these days. The widespread illiteracy among school pupils today, is precisely because the teachers fail to telll them when they are wrong. If we are wrong and nobody corrects us, how are we ever going to learn?

[Famous Scouser]

If anyone has any doubts about the so called family of George Kelly and there continuing pursuit of compensation, then they should take themselves to Springwood Cemetery to see his grave. George Kelly's body was exhumed from underneath the car park of Walton Prison in 2006 and re interred at Springwood. The grave is a disgrace, covered in dirty red and white plastic flowers with the original floral plastic placard tribute, litter, leaves and lord knows what else. I doubt whether its ever been tendered since the day he was placed there. There is a cheap bamboo border surround around the grave, and bearing in mind it was 3 years ago, there is No gravestone. Thats how much his family care, including his "daughter".
Over to you Emma Gill!

[fortinian]

You have a very good point there Famous Scouser. Perhaps a news story out of it would shame them into doing something. I'm sure the Echo would love another oportunity to fill pages with Cameo related stuff - any murders/crimes are big sellers.

[Famous Scouser]

You want to see the state of it mate, its a disgrace and anyone with an ounce of compassion would have felt like I did about this mans treatment and lack of dignity in life and death. I wonder what the point of the exhumation was.

[captain kong]

The point of the exhumation was to get the sympathy of everyone for someone who never ever knew George Kelly.

[Famous Scouser]

Correct. ka-ching!

[Famous Scouser]

And here is the said grave. Note the plastic floral tribute placard as you can barely make his details out. This is the only thing that identifies his remains apart from the grave plan that the cemetery has. He was re - interred at Springwood in March 2006.

[Harryboy]

Do you mean the daughter, Kong?
If I remember correctly, George Skelly in his book states that even before Kelly was cleared by the Appeal Court in 2003, he (Skelly)was negotiating with the Home Office on behalf of Kelly's relatives (daughter?) to have his remains removed to consecrated ground, but the relatives loused it up.
Given that he wasn't even invited to the funeral, and now the latest sad news from famous Scouser about the state of the grave without a headstone, I'll bet Skelly is wondering why he ever bothered.

[Harryboy]

By the look of the blank "sympathy" card on the grave, it looks as if nobody could even be bothered to put Kelly's name on it!
Your right Scouser. What a shocking lack of dignity for a man who was so cruelly treated by the State!

[Paddy]

I feel that this thread has digressed a little. However the observation on the distant relatives and the seemingly neglectfulness of them to his memory, does tell us something. However we might like to ask ourselves why so many people have an interest in the case? I know some people like crime stories and others like to know about the darker side of Liverpool history, and there are those who wish just to know the facts. Well there are also quite a lot of Liverpool people who see the violation of human rights in this topic. The Kelly case is a reminder that capital punishment as a final and ultimate sanction is open to abuse. Since Obama came into power in America twenty death row inmates have been executed. Did you know that? Let?s suppose that one of these inmates was innocent. Then you must also agree that that is one two many. My interest in the case as I have already stated springs from the fact that ordinary working class people in Liverpool always doubted the guilt of Kelly. Some on here have decried the reality of an oral tradition amongst scousers perhaps they themselves are not scousers. If the fate of Kelly had not been held within the hearts of ordinary people he most likely would never have been reprieved. What makes 28 thousand people turn out for a memorial service at Anfield? Might I suggest a sense of injustice? I am against capital punishment for many reasons and one important reason is this case.

[Harryboy]

Sorry Paddy,
but wrong again! most ordinary Liverpool people did NOT believe in Kelly's innocence for 50-odd years until Skelly's book and Santangeli's investigations, which proved his innocence in the Court of appeal. They didn't believe kelly was innocent mainly because of Connolly's admission - admittedly made under duress -that he robbed the Cameo, "With George Kelly and persons Unknown".
Famous Scouser and others here are not talking about the neglect of "distant relatives", but 2 nephews and a so-called daughter!
As for digressing. What has Obama and recent American executions got to do with a Liverpool hanging of an innocent man 59 years ago. For all we know - until you can prove otherwise, as Kelly has been - they may have all been guilty.
Also, the 28,000 were at Anfield primarily to pay their respects to 96 people, among them their relatives, who were unfortunately killed at a football match. Again, sad as that was, where is the connection?
As for non-scousers refuting the Liverpool "oral tradition". Please count me out.I was born and bred in Liverpool.
I think we should all be congratulating Famous Scouser for what he has uncovered about this matter.

[Harryboy]

And by the way Kelly was not "reprieved". He was exonerated from the crime by the highest court in the land. not through the "hearts of ordinary Liverpool people" but through the actions of only two determined ordinary Liverpool men, Skelly and Santangeli. If we were to go by Liverpool "alehouse talk" and local gossip, Kelly would still be lying under a car park at Walton prison, stigmatised forever as a ruthless killer.

[Paddy]

Your verbose reply and rancor shows you take umbrage with me on my position. Are you Mr. Skelly?s agent or PR MAN? The issue is not who is who in this murky business, rather why it happened and why it should not happen again. You plainly show in your answer that you are not against the death penalty so any debate on the core problem is worthless. Regards the demonstration of Liverpool fans the sentiments of ordinary people you seem to see as meaningless. If you were promoting a book on the Hillsborough disaster would you feel the same way? I think your campaign for Skelly will hinder rather than help. If you were born and bred in the city how come your not clued up on these matters?

Out of respect for the memory of George I think this will be my last input.

[Famous Scouser]

Judging by the state of the grave Harry, he may as well have stayed under that car park. At least there was visible identification of who he was, more than can be said for now.

As for the thread digressing, not on my part. It is a thread about a, George Kelly and b. the Cameo murders and whats more, it was started by a Kelly familly member telling us about the injustice of "uncle Georgie" and the way he was treated. I wonder how much of the injustice extends to the state of "Uncle Georgies" grave or the apparent contempt that this family member has for that Hero George Skelly who I happen to know was accused of "cashing in" on her uncles memory by writing a book. Can you believe that, the very book that exposed the injustice and the very man that brought out the truth and will do so again on another infamous case of Balmers.

Harry, bang on. George Kelly has his conviction quashed and most Liverpool people believed that he was guilty because Charlie Connolly had to plead guilty to save his life.

[Harryboy]

Your verbose reply and rancor shows you take umbrage with me on my position. Are you Mr. Skelly?s agent or PR MAN? The issue is not who is who in this murky business, rather why it happened and why it should not happen again. You plainly show in your answer that you are not against the death penalty so any debate on the core problem is worthless. Regards the demonstration of Liverpool fans the sentiments of ordinary people you seem to see as meaningless. If you were promoting a book on the Hillsborough disaster would you feel the same way? I think your campaign for Skelly will hinder rather than help. If you were born and bred in the city how come your not clued up on these matters?

Out of respect for the memory of George I think this will be my last input.

Paddy, I think I'll let the other contributors here judge who is the verbose and rancorous one!
Why should you label me as pro-capital punishment simply because I differentiate between guilty and innocent people. Would you have pardoned serial killers like the Yorkshire Ripper and Fred West? I don't think your "ordinary Liverpool people" would have.
And by the way, Famous Scouser, you had better watch out! It seems anyone who tells the truth and corrects inaccuracies of fact by Paddy- who doesn't seem to know the difference between a reprieve and a quashed conviction - is automatically labelled Mr Skelly's agent or PR man!
Finally Paddy, since you say this is your last word on the subject, I've noticed that you have never once given any appreciation or praise to Messrs Santangeli, Skelly or people like Famous Scouser. Are you saving it all for the "oral tradionalists" among the "ordinary Liverpool people", who did nothing for nearly 60 years to correct a blatant miscarriage of justice?!!

[jess]

Judging by the state of the grave Harry, he may as well have stayed under that car park. At least there was visible identification of who he was, more than can be said for now.

As for the thread digressing, not on my part. It is a thread about a, George Kelly and b. the Cameo murders and whats more, it was started by a Kelly familly member telling us about the injustice of "uncle Georgie" and the way he was treated. I wonder how much of the injustice extends to the state of "Uncle Georgies" grave or the apparent contempt that this family member has for that Hero George Skelly who I happen to know was accused of "cashing in" on her uncles memory by writing a book. Can you believe that, the very book that exposed the injustice and the very man that brought out the truth and will do so again on another infamous case of Balmers.

Harry, bang on. George Kelly has his conviction quashed and most Liverpool people believed that he was guilty because Charlie Connolly had to plead guilty to save his life.


We have recently found out about this site, and have read over the last few months with interest about the so called people who "know" everything about the Kelly Family and in particular the affect it had on his immediate family throughout their lives, as someone who is very closely attached to the immediate family I wish to just confirm that in fact George is not buried in Springwood Cemetary so I do not know which grave this person is talking about. Also with regard to the compensation, again take it from me that no family member has received one penny in compensation, this includes his daughter and because of legal fees no one is likely to receive anything!!!

Another fact which should be pointed out which I do not think many people are aware of is do people realise that George Skelly was in fact a researcher for Mr. Shortall before he went on to write his book. There are many many discrepancies which have been written on this site which have upset and angered certain family members, in particular with relation to the matter of compensation, and buriel site. If you are not 100% certain what you are talking about then do not make assumptions about family members of George Kelly, because none of you realise what implications his death had on the Kelly Family.

[Famous Scouser]

What a load of cr*p! George Kelly is indeed buried in Springwood Cemetary grave number 554. If you check the press cuttings(of which I will try and dig out later) it will also show you that his remains were re-interred in Springwood (Otherwise known as Allerton Cemetery). I can also give you a name and a telephone number to speak with the cemetery researcher to confirm it if you so wish.

Then there is Shortall. Wrong again! George Skelly was no way ever a researcher for Shortall. It so happened that Shortall approached Skelly with a view to co-writing a book. Shortall got what he wanted and split from the collaboration to write his own book, which if you were a family member, will know that it was factually wrong and relaesed AFTER George Skelly's work!

Kathleen Hughes allegedly did receive a large amount of money and reportedly/allegedly bought a big house from the proceeds.

We do not profess to know everything about the Kelly family as you state, we don't really care about the Kelly family either, but we do know an awful lot about the Cameo case and what went on. We also know how much time and dedication both George Skelly and Lou Santangeli put in that culminated in the quashing of George Kellys conviction. Not one of the Kelly familly thanked either men at the conclusion.

Nice ploy to throw us off the trail Jess. Didnt work I'm afraid. That grave most certaily is George Kellys and is in a most sorry state. Maybe with you being so closely attached to the family, you can do something about it?

[Famous Scouser]

Here you are Jess. Read and digest.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/4854332.stm



Dont make me out to be a liar, I have done my homework my friend. You should be ashamed.

I suppose I concocted the floral name placard on the grave that says faintly, but clearly readable GEORGE KELLY??

[fortinian]

It seems, Jess that you have indeed been rumbled.

[captain kong]

The Kelly family cared so much for the people who helped to clear his name that they locked me and George Skelly out of the Cathedral, with security men on the door. There was only two of us and we had to stay in the cold wind and rain.
He is indeed buried in Allerton Cemetery.(Springwood Cemetery)

[Harryboy]

Jess,
if you are as close to the Kelly family as you say you are, you must know - when you say nobody has received a penny - that Kelly's daughter at the conclusion of the succesful Appeal, requested, through her barrister, to be reimbursed immediately, a sum of approximately ?200 to cover her rail fare to London and accommodation costs. This can be verified if you read the full official Appeal judgment on the Website, which I'm sure Famous Scouser, through his so-far brilliant research, will undoubtedly direct you to.
I think, if it was my father who had been finally cleared of murder after 50 years,I fiirst of all would have thanked those responsible, one of whom was actually in the Court, and then willingly have walked back to Liverpool with overwhelming gratitude and joy in my heart.

[Ged]

And for what it's worth imho there's nothing wrong with the death penalty as long as you get the right person. Don't blame the result Paddy, blame how you reached the result. Get that important bit right and everything's fine.

There are/were people like the Wests, Shipman, Sutcliffe, Bamber, Brady, Hindley, Huntley, Ryan, Neilsen who should never have drew another breath or enjoyed the air the universe affords us.

[CanadianLad]

wow... isn't this whole thing about a man who died for no other reason except for the fact he was poor. An easy target. It's not about who knows more, who knows less, or who got money. What happened to George and Charles was an affront on all of us.

When we stand back and allow those things to get in the way of the story and what should be remembered, we lose. They lose. We must learn from our history. George Kelly died because due process was denied. His rights to a civil and fair trial were denied.

There is a movie being made, the screenplay is almost done, and the film will give George and Charles the trial they never got. Trust me. Anyone who played a part in clearing their name will be remembered.

They just didn't fight for George Kelly, they fought for every person who was ever denied their basic inalieable human rights.

[Famous Scouser]

.

[Harryboy]

Canadian Lad, what you say is so true. I couldn't agree more.
But we must show our disapproval if certain people are not interested in justice and a fair trial or a wrong excecution, but simply filthy lucre.
Interesting news about the movie. Seems you have inside info on this. Is it George Skelly's long-awaited film of his book, The Cameo Conspiracy?

[Famous Scouser]

.

[CanadianLad]

yup, based on his book with additional research.. but basd on "The Cameo Conspiracy".. Colin McKeown and Julia Stannard are producing...

[Famous Scouser]

I think this is the ongoing project for which George Skelly is still wrinting the screenplay. I could be wrong though.

[Harryboy]

yup, based on his book with additional research.. but basd on "The Cameo Conspiracy".. Colin McKeown and Julia Stannard are producing...

A Bit confused here Canadian. If Skelly is doing it, as famous Scouser tells us, why would he have to do "additional research" on his own book/screenplay?.

[jane2]

:handclap::simply my question, see my answer to famous scouser on the cranborne road mrder site.????

[CanadianLad]

actaully being written by two other writers, based on George's book...

[Harryboy]

So, Canadian, Skelly is Not writing it?
I'm even more confused now because according to Famous Scouser, who seems to know a lot about it, it is Skelly who was writing the screenplay. Or do you mean it is Skelly and another writer?

[CanadianLad]

george is being kept aware on it and being asked for advice and info, so yes, George is involved and being the respect he so deserves

[fortinian]

Without going into too much detail... how do the people involved know this? I can find nothing on IMDB or indeed a general search.

[Harryboy]

A bit of news for all you Cameo Afficianadoes, Brand new copies of Skelly's book are being sold on EBay for less than 20 quid. This sounds like a good deal because the used, secondhand copies are on Amazon UK from 23 quid to 94quid.!! The new copies are apparently also signed by the author.

[Famous Scouser]

This book is also held in the Liverpool Archives at the Picton Library. It is quite a rareity these days.

[Harryboy]

The plot thickens on Yo Liverpool. We've now got a guy on another thread, Cameo Film, who's apparently written a play which contains a "secret" about the case! The only problem with this " secret" is that, according to him/her, it is in all of the books about the murders! In other words it's public knowledge. That being the case, the reasonable question was asked : How can it then be a secret? His answer was, "Don't spoil the play".
How odd!

[scouse exile]

Not odd at all. Would you like me to tell you who did the murder in The Mousetrap? Because I could do.

[Harryboy]

But Scouse, dont you see? You've been hoist by your own petard!
The millions of people who have seen the Mousetrap over its numerous years run in the West End (the longest running play ever?) KNOW who the murderer is! Thus, it is no secret anymore!
Can't you see, you have just disproved your own point.
I dont wish to be facetious but why don't you approach Professor Codman to put on your play? After all, he too was around the St George's Hall area "at the time"!

[scouse exile]

I am, I hope, a patient man, but how many times do I have to say this: if it's still a secret to someone it remains a secret --- no matter how many other people know it. The people I hope to reach with a dramatised version of what happened all those years ago are the hundreds, nay, thousands of people, many living in our fair City, for whom the whole affair means nothing. And the reason I tease, with talk of the Cameo secret, is to intrigue and engage them with the story, in the the way so many of you are already engaged.
One, possibly two generations, have now passed since the appalling travesty of the Cameo Murders trial and George Kelly, as far as I'm concerned, is still not completly avenged.
PS: No one goes to The Mousetrap knowing who did it. So let's not go down that road!

[Harryboy]

But don't you understand, those thousands of people you mention, do not know because they don't want to know?! Otherwise they would have taken an interest in the case. And as you say, generations have passsed since the murders which makes it even more unlikely that this generation would want to know about the case or your "secret".
Moreover, aren't you aware that a movie is apparently being made of the case? Arent people - even the younger generation - more likely to watch the movie, with all it's pre-publicity and marketing, and which will probably also contain your "secret" - than go to see your yet to be performed play, whose only apparent "selling point" is your so-called secret.
Come on Scouse, get real!

[scouse exile]

Depends how good my play is and how good their movie is. And that's no secret.
Just for the record and at grave risk of becoming a pain in the arse can I repeat for hopefully the last time that the secret I speak of IS in both the books you mentioned.
God, I'm losing my mind here!
All the best, anyway.

[Harryboy]

In that case, I'll have to state for the final time, IT IS NOT AND CANNOT BE A SECRET!
If your doing a play, then good luck to you. But please dont try to create controversy and interest with a patently false prospectus.

[scouse exile]

Shall I tell you what's the pretty disturbing aspect of all this, and I really don't mean to be rude--- some of you guys talk as if you owned the Cameo Murders case. Not only owned it but sort of resented anyone else having an opinion about it.
One might have thought that you'd be quite interested in the novel idea of a script with no big production budget, unlike any proposal for a film, a script designed for small venues on Merseyside which might just have an interesting new take on this enduring controversy.
Talk about shooting the messenger! Or, I should say, taking aim at him. And missing.

[Famous Scouser]

But your the one that owns the "secret" scouse. Your not disclosing any of that are you?

[Harryboy]

Well, come on Scouse!!
One the one hand your'e talking about small merseyside venues then on the other Cameo thread your talking about a Broadway production. Now, quite apart from your "secret" (which almost everybody already knows, according to you yourself), how on earth can we take you seriously?!!

[scouse exile]

Jesus, guys, the crack about Broadway was a joke! When I lived in the Pool we could usually see a joke coming. What's the matter with you people? Can't you see that far now?
You know, don't you, what the rest of the country sometimes alleges about Liverpool? They say we're insular. They say we look inwards. They say we can't see far to the East of our special Eden.
And the way you guys pushed your way to the battlements to hurl the crap down at me, who was raised there, suggests they may just be right.
Of course any play of mine won't get to New York --- hey just a minute, though, it just might if Harryboy goes on helping my case in his warm-hearted way.

[fortinian]

Insular and parochial? Us? Never! This is a local forum for local people and we'll run you out of the village if you suggest otherwise. :rolleyes:

Addendum: This is all getting a little bit silly now.

[Ged]

Just put the dam-n play on and those with an interest in it will go and see it, even out of curiosity to see if you've got it right or not, isn't that what critical reviews are all about. Good luck.

[scouse exile]

Thank you one and all. I may just do that. And if you buy a ticket ( no freebies, after all the stuff you've been throwing at me ) and come along, you'll know me --- I'll be the one in the dark glasses and the flak jacket. I reckon I'll recognise Harryboy because he'll be wearing his drama critic's opera cloak. And possibly carrying a dictionary.

[captain kong]

Doesnt anyone think that this subject should be put to rest?

There are still people, who are relatives of the main players in this case, living in Liverpool and they just want to get on with their own lives and not constantly reminded of a nightmare that happened so long ago.

I was a close friend of Charles Connolly and he still has a widow and two sons, very nice people, who do not want his memory to be discussed repeatedly. He name was cleared and that is all they wanted and now to be left alone.

[scouse exile]

Guys, we've had a bit of fun over the last few days but personally speaking I would hate to feel we had caused any more pain to the people for whom the Cameo affair was a family matter -- and an enduring one at that. I'm sure you all feel the same.

[bgkk.rock]

maybe.... :ninja:

[scouse exile]

Hi people, it's me again. The guy who dared to write a stage play about the Cameo Cinema murders and got banished to turdtown by the MCCPS (Merseyside Cameo Case Protection Society ). Now then, in that connection, I've returned with a question. One of the central characters of the play is an escapologist ( don't ask ) and he's based on a performer I recall from my youth who used to do an escapology act on bomb sites in the years just after the war. I recall seeing him performing on the Blitz site at the junction of Lord Street and Whitechapel. He would climb into this old Post Office mailbag, an assistant ( lovely or not -- I can't remember ) would wrap him in chains. And he would proceed to try to escape his bonds with loud but muffled grunts of despair while writhing around scattering clouds of dust all over the city centre. Trouble is no one I've spoken to who was also around in those days seems to remember him. And I'm beginning to think I was hallucinating. So can anyone kindly confirm my recollection?

[robbo176]

Hi people, it's me again. The guy who dared to write a stage play about the Cameo Cinema murders and got banished to turdtown by the MCCPS (Merseyside Cameo Case Protection Society ). Now then, in that connection, I've returned with a question. One of the central characters of the play is an escapologist ( don't ask ) and he's based on a performer I recall from my youth who used to do an escapology act on bomb sites in the years just after the war. I recall seeing him performing on the Blitz site at the junction of Lord Street and Whitechapel. He would climb into this old Post Office mailbag, an assistant ( lovely or not -- I can't remember ) would wrap him in chains. And he would proceed to try to escape his bonds with loud but muffled grunts of despair while writhing around scattering clouds of dust all over the city centre. Trouble is no one I've spoken to who was also around in those days seems to remember him. And I'm beginning to think I was hallucinating. So can anyone kindly confirm my recollection?
hiya scouse exile,I think the guy you mean is Hughie Smith,there is a bit about him on Gerard Flemings site :PDT_Piratz_26:
http://liverpooldays.com/photo/thumbnails.php?album=7

[scouse exile]

Robbo, mate, you're amazing. I've looked him up as you suggested -- and that is the guy I remember. Complete with chains. Not sure that's a Post Office bag, though. Still nice to know I'm not cracking up memory-wise. Thanks again.
:handclap:

[robbo176]

Hi people, it's me again. The guy who dared to write a stage play about the Cameo Cinema murders and got banished to turdtown by the MCCPS (Merseyside Cameo Case Protection Society ). Now then, in that connection, I've returned with a question. One of the central characters of the play is an escapologist ( don't ask ) and he's based on a performer I recall from my youth who used to do an escapology act on bomb sites in the years just after the war. I recall seeing him performing on the Blitz site at the junction of Lord Street and Whitechapel. He would climb into this old Post Office mailbag, an assistant ( lovely or not -- I can't remember ) would wrap him in chains. And he would proceed to try to escape his bonds with loud but muffled grunts of despair while writhing around scattering clouds of dust all over the city centre. Trouble is no one I've spoken to who was also around in those days seems to remember him. And I'm beginning to think I was hallucinating. So can anyone kindly confirm my recollection?

I bought Jim Elliots book on hughie Smith to read while I was staying in hospital only to find out that I know his family(they lived in my old street) & my uncle Chuck is mentioned in it
I can highly recommend the book,I've enjoyed reading about him :PDT_Piratz_26:

[Ged]

I have it too signed from when I met Jim. My wife's 'Breens' are also mentioned in it.

[robbo176]

Hi people, it's me again. The guy who dared to write a stage play about the Cameo Cinema murders and got banished to turdtown by the MCCPS (Merseyside Cameo Case Protection Society ). Now then, in that connection, I've returned with a question. One of the central characters of the play is an escapologist ( don't ask ) and he's based on a performer I recall from my youth who used to do an escapology act on bomb sites in the years just after the war. I recall seeing him performing on the Blitz site at the junction of Lord Street and Whitechapel. He would climb into this old Post Office mailbag, an assistant ( lovely or not -- I can't remember ) would wrap him in chains. And he would proceed to try to escape his bonds with loud but muffled grunts of despair while writhing around scattering clouds of dust all over the city centre. Trouble is no one I've spoken to who was also around in those days seems to remember him. And I'm beginning to think I was hallucinating. So can anyone kindly confirm my recollection?

the maisonette that Hughie Smith lived & died is shown on this thread
http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4203

post numbers #3 & #7
Hughie lived on first floor 2nd maisonette along number 1a ,my dad lived on ground floor at number 3 & I lived a couple of doors away at number 9 & also opposite at number 2 :)

strangely the first maisonette of the block was 2 St Domingo Rd

[missy]

Just wanted to say Kathleen Hughes is the daughter of Georgie Kelly, Also REPORTEDLY is the operative word here she did not walk away with 500,000
and certainly didnt move to a big house!!! She lhas lived in the same house for more than 20 years and i know this because she is my aunty.

[Famous Scouser]

Just wanted to say Kathleen Hughes is the daughter of Georgie Kelly, Also REPORTEDLY is the operative word here she did not walk away with 500,000
and certainly didnt move to a big house!!! She lhas lived in the same house for more than 20 years and i know this because she is my aunty.

Tell her to put a gravestone on her "fathers" grave then.

[brian daley]

I have vivid memories of the escapologist who used to p[erform their craft on that waste ground by Lewis's in the 1940's. The warm up to the escape trick was the part where hughie used to hold a paving slab against his chest while his partner smashed it with a sledge hammer. One of them used to crack a whip to attract our attention and would tell us about what was to happen next. The atmosphere seemed quite violent to a mere boy like me and I used to flinch when the man with the whip used to call for volunteers. Watching the man get in the post office sack and then get bound by chains which then had a cutlass inserted ,used to frighten the bejesus out of me. Would he die in his struggle to get out? Suffice to say that when he did, most of the audience evaporated and they were left with just a few folk who would drop a copper or two into their bag . It seemed a hard way to make a living.
Near forty years later Sue and I went to the 6 Hills show in Leicestershire and saw a family doing the same act. Only this time the father and son had paving slabs placed on their heads while the mother smashed them with a sledgehammer. Both father and son looked like they were half witted!
BrianD

[missy]

Tell her to put a gravestone on her "fathers" grave then.


I suggest you get yor facts right!!!! Wrong grave which everyone on here knows you have been pulled up on before. Seeing as you think you know so much. Why dont you go and knock on the door of the SUPPOSEDLY big house Kathleen Hughes lives in and tell her to her face ?????

[Harryboy]

Missy, are you saying Famous Scouser is wrong, when he actually posted a photo of George Kellys grave on this thread a few months ago, when it was without a headstone?
You also say Kathleen Hughes is Kelly's daughter. but as I understand it, he was seperated from his wife Annie in 1941 and never had any children..

[Harryboy]

Missy,
a good way to prove who is right or wrong would be for one of the Kelly famiily to post a picture on this thread of the grave with its headstone. That would surely settle the matter.

[pablo42]

Missy,
a good way to prove who is right or wrong would be for one of the Kelly famiily to post a picture on this thread of the grave with its headstone. That would surely settle the matter.

Don't you believe her?

[Famous Scouser]

Everyone knows who's telling the truth here Harry. The photos in the thread show the plastic placard that acts as Georgies makeshift headstone.Besides if anyone is in doubt they can go to Springwood and check it out for themselves. They can even see it from Springwood Avenue right opposite the entrance to Clarkes gardens if they don't want to get out of the car.
.
In the meantime let the family squabble and bicker over the "compo" that they are all rubbing their hands together over.No gravestone for your own father.Disgraceful!

[pablo42]

Seems a lot of bad feeling over this. If the family aren't bothered why would anyone else. Hope when I go, my family save a few bob and throw me to the ducks.

[Famous Scouser]

Missy, are you saying Famous Scouser is wrong, when he actually posted a photo of George Kellys grave on this thread a few months ago, when it was without a headstone?
You also say Kathleen Hughes is Kelly's daughter. but as I understand it, he was seperated from his wife Annie in 1941 and never had any children..

Annie Reid if my memory serves me right Harry.

[Harryboy]

Seems a lot of bad feeling over this. If the family aren't bothered why would anyone else. Hope when I go, my family save a few bob and throw me to the ducks.

I think your'e missing the point here Pablo. It has been widely and regularly reported that the Kelly family are indeed "bothered" and do care very much. So if that is the case, and they havent, as Famous Scouser maintains, even bothered to put a gravestone on George's grave what does that say about their concern? On the other hand if they say there is a gravestone, why dont they post a photo here and settle the matter?

[pablo42]

I think your'e missing the point here Pablo. It has been widely and regularly reported that the Kelly family are indeed "bothered" and do care very much. So if that is the case, and they havent, as Famous Scouser maintains, even bothered to put a gravestone on George's grave what does that say about their concern? On the other hand if they say there is a gravestone, why dont they post a photo here and settle the matter?

Reckon that's up to them Harry. Like I said, hope my kids don't spend any money on me when I'm gone. It won't say how much they thought of me, it's just my wishes. If they wanna spend money on me, do it now.

[pablo42]

I think your'e missing the point here Pablo. It has been widely and regularly reported that the Kelly family are indeed "bothered" and do care very much. So if that is the case, and they havent, as Famous Scouser maintains, even bothered to put a gravestone on George's grave what does that say about their concern? On the other hand if they say there is a gravestone, why dont they post a photo here and settle the matter?

I thought he was hanged.

[underworld]

Considering it was a high profile state execution, I would have thought that there woul have been equally a high profile headstone. The photos show his final resting place to be tatty and shamefull. Argueably the state provide a better service by burying him in the grounds of the prison rather than leave him in the hands of his so called grieving family. I read somewhere that an MP from down south was making noises about compo on behalf of the family. I thought his daughter was the only one entitled to anything or are they feuding between themselves?

[pablo42]

Considering it was a high profile state execution, I would have thought that there woul have been equally a high profile headstone. The photos show his final resting place to be tatty and shamefull. Argueably the state provide a better service by burying him in the grounds of the prison rather than leave him in the hands of his so called grieving family. I read somewhere that an MP from down south was making noises about compo on behalf of the family. I thought his daughter was the only one entitled to anything or are they feuding between themselves?

I thought if you were hung, you were buried inside the prison grounds. Is this not the case?

[steveb]

I thought if you were hung, you were buried inside the prison grounds. Is this not the case?

It is, but if you are postumously pardoned the the body can be
exhumed and buried elsewere

[pablo42]

It is, but if you are postumously pardoned the the body can be
exhumed and buried elsewere

Don't spose it'd make much difference to a dead man. Just moving bones.

[steveb]

Don't spose it'd make much difference to a dead man. Just moving bones.

No, but it allows family/relies to errect a headstone and visit

[Tess]

Hi,
I've just read both books on the Cameo case. Someone happened to give me the Shortall book a few weeks ago. Vincent Burke wrote the introduction. I had only just about heard of the case before then; no personal interest. But the book so fascinated me that I then wanted the Skelly one too. It's absolutely gripping as an account and it's obvious how much research went into it.

Neither of the authors tells you what their sources are so you can never know for certain who said what, when and to whom, and exactly what the truth is. (That's apart from the trial itself, the anonymous letter and certain written statements to the police, which are reproduced accurately and can't be disputed.) There are also significant discrepancies between the two books which make matters more difficult for the reader. I'm speaking as a general reader, of course. I know nothing about any of the people involved in the case and therefore, unlike some of you, I'm not in a position to make an informed judgment on the accuracy of many of the things which are said in either book.

However, it was a miscarriage of justice in that the convictions were clearly unsafe. I'm now reading the judgment which overturned the convictions in 2003 and that much seems absolutely clear. Circumstantial evidence, no forensic links, evidence held back which could have helped the defence etc.
etc.

I've enjoyed reading many of the comments on this thread. Thank you!

[captain kong]

Tess
Newbie

Neither of the authors tells you what their sources are

George Skelly tells where his source of information comes from in the opening pages of his book in `Ackowledgements`.
His brother was with George Kelly on the day of the murders.
I was an old friend of Charles Connolly and Charles gave George all the information on his side of the case.
He interviewed many people who had connections to the case, some did not want to be identified.
More information came from,Merseyside Police, The Coroners Court, Liverpool Crown Court, Merseyside Public Records Office, the Home Office and so on.
I think you will find the sources of information are very good. Even I am in it.

[Tess]

Hi Captain Kong,
Thanks for replying!

As I said, I don't doubt for a moment the amount of research that went into Skelly's book.

Of course he gives general acknowledgments but he doesn't note the origin or source of each comment or statement as he makes it. Now I know that doing that might make for a more tedious book, using scholarly conventions, rather than the gripping "docu-story" it actually is, and I am certainly not complaining! The book is totally un-put-downable and I am sure it is soundly based. I think Skelly wished to write a particular sort of book and has succeeded brilliantly.

Nevertheless, it remains impossible for the general, ignorant reader like myself to be certain of every claim he makes, ie where his own personal opinion or interpretation begins and where the actual opinions or statements of his "witnesses" end. If he had used a system of footnotes linking each comment he makes to the particular authority/interview/document/source he had used (all referred to generally in the acknowledgments, as you say), there would be fewer uncertainties; that's all.

(And of course, as in all history books, there can be no certainty that those people he spoke to were always telling the truth. Some may have misremembered or unintentionally misquoted other people, and others may simply have been lying, for whatever reason. But that's a risk which just has to be taken in any such account. You take the general overall picture as likely to be correct.)

I am doubting neither Skelly's sincerity nor the thoroughness of his research, and I certainly accept his conclusions. Broadly speaking, they were also accepted by the Court of Appeal which, thankfully, overturned the convictions as unsound.

By the way, have you a view on how Balmer came to leave in the files the original statement he took from Graham about Johnson's confession to him in prison? Balmer went on to lie in court about the date of the first time he had spoken to Graham and that original statement was never given to the defence. That seems to be accepted by everyone, including the Court of Appeal. That original statement, which would have cast such doubt on Graham's second statement about Kelly's and Connolly's so-called confessions to him, wasn't found until about 1991, I think? I believe it was when Santangelli gained access to the police files? Amazing that the detective left it there to be found at all! Thank God he did. Pure carelessness? Or did he have no choice because he'd already told his boss about it and couldn't easily remove it from the file after that? Might it indicate that at that stage, he hadn't yet hatched the stitch-up plot and then later, when the plot was under way, he simply forgot to remove the earlier incriminating statement which could have undone his plans? I suppose it might also depend on who had access to the files and who was therefore likely ever to read the statement? Probably a very thick file anyway. Or maybe it was someone else, not Balmer, who slipped the statement into the file.

I have a few pages left to read of Skelly's book. I am gobbling it up too quickly, forgetting a lot of details. I'll be reading it again straightaway!

Thanks again for the reply. Intrigued to hear you are mentioned.....I've just read those acknowledgments again!

[underworld]

Hi,
I've just read both books on the Cameo case. Someone happened to give me the Shortall book a few weeks ago. Vincent Burke wrote the introduction. I had only just about heard of the case before then; no personal interest. But the book so fascinated me that I then wanted the Skelly one too. It's absolutely gripping as an account and it's obvious how much research went into it.

Neither of the authors tells you what their sources are so you can never know for certain who said what, when and to whom, and exactly what the truth is. (That's apart from the trial itself, the anonymous letter and certain written statements to the police, which are reproduced accurately and can't be disputed.) There are also significant discrepancies between the two books which make matters more difficult for the reader. I'm speaking as a general reader, of course. I know nothing about any of the people involved in the case and therefore, unlike some of you, I'm not in a position to make an informed judgment on the accuracy of many of the things which are said in either book.

However, it was a miscarriage of justice in that the convictions were clearly unsafe. I'm now reading the judgment which overturned the convictions in 2003 and that much seems absolutely clear. Circumstantial evidence, no forensic links, evidence held back which could have helped the defence etc.
etc.

I've enjoyed reading many of the comments on this thread. Thank you!

The other thing that the judgement says is the Balmer lied in court. As for the statement being left in the file, well I suppose in those days, what the Police said went and who was going to question them. There was no investigations into miscarraiges of justice's in those days. Balmer was on solid ground as far as he was concerned.

Balmer had also been a Police prosecutor in the courts from 1938 to 1944 and knew the system well and probably knew a lot of the legal people involved in the Cameo case. I would suggest he was very well placed to investigate a double murder but at a relatively junior rank of Chief Inspector. Where were his supervisors such as the Superintendent or Chief Superintendent?

George Skelly spent years putting his book together and Shortalls book is factually wrong in many places. As Capt Kong says, Jimmy Skelly was with George Kelly at the relevant times. George Skelly grew up living and breathing the cameo case as his lived in the middle of it all and knew the Kelly family and George Kellys brothers and extended family. He also knew Charlie Connolly and was working with him on the book right up to Charlies death in 1999. Many others were interviewed that were all on the peripheral at the time in 1949/50. Others couldnt be traced and it would be interesting to know if they are still around.

I have read George Skellys book 4 times and I still go back to it for reference. It is compelling and I think it was actually used in the appeal court in 2003. As far as I am concerned, the provenance of "The Cameo Conspiracy" is second to none. It is the definitive!

[Tess]

Hi Underworld!

I've started the Skelly book for the second time now and am going to note down all the discrepancies with Shortall's book. I notice Vincent Burke wrote the introduction to Shortall's. Apart from any factual inaccuracies, Shortall's book doesn't seem to have been proofread; it's full of typos and obvious mistakes.

Balmer did lie in court, quite happily, and that makes me even more surprised he didn't remove that first statement by Graham saying that Johnson had confessed to him that HE had done the deed. Johnson had already been found "not guilty" of being an accessory after the fact and Balmer's boss, Smith, wasn't impressed by Johnson's later supposed "confession" to Graham, which Graham spoke about in his first statement to Balmer. Smith said they couldn't use that statement for anything useful. I would have expected Balmer to make sure it disappeared as soon as he had the later statement from Graham saying, this time, that Kelly and Connolly had "confessed" to him in prison.

(The very thought that Kelly and Connolly, while constantly protesting their innocence, would tell a complete stranger in prison that they HAD done the murder, is ludicrous to my mind.)

Rose Heilbron seems to have been good in many ways but I can't work out why on earth they didn't ask for forensic tests on the overcoat, so handily produced late on, nor even ask Kelly to try it on in court. Skelly's of the view that it clearly wouldn't have fitted him because it was already tight on Northam who was smaller than Kelly. Far more should have been made of Thomella's evidence that Kelly had been in his pub, NOT the White Star, the day after the murder.

The police may have lied and stitched them up and held back crucial evidence (such as Graham's earlier statement about Johnson), but the defence could possibly have done a better job even with what they had.

[captain kong]

Charles Connolly told me he did not want to know about Shortall, he did not trust him, and thought he was just going to use him to make a bit of money.
He trusted George Skelly and told him everything he knew about the case.
Charles collapsed and died in ASDA Supremarket, Norris Green whilst shopping on Thursday 18th of April 1997. Over 400 people attended his funeral including many show biz celebs and from the boxing world. He was very well thought of.
Charles had me searching all over Preston and at his last known address for Graham, but I couldnt find him, he wanted to find Graham to confess that he had lied. A lot of people there were very suspicious of me and my questions, I walked into a pub he had frequented, the White Horse, and the pub emptied when I asked the landlord a few questions about Graham. I was not welcome.
I searched around Trafford, Manchester for Jackie Dickson, again I could not find her, she may have died early as she was consumptive.