St. Peter's Church, Church Street

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

Here is a picture of St Peters, source unknown to me

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/989/6520/133316.jpg

And here is a picture of the cross in the pavement in Church street where the high altar once stood.

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/EmmanuelGoldstein_2006/the_cross.jpg

[PhilipG]

I know David Lewis in his book "Churches of Liverpool" says that the cross is on the site of the High Altar of St Peter's.
The truth is that the cross is just there to remind passers-by of the church, and while it might just be inside the former grounds of the church, the church itself was set further back.
As this map shows.

Extract from Alan Godfrey reprint of the OS Liverpool Sheet 29, 1848-64.

[ChrisGeorge]

I know David Lewis in his book "Churches of Liverpool" says that the cross is on the site of the High Altar of St Peter's.
The truth is that the cross is just there to remind passers-by of the church, and while it might just be inside the former grounds of the church, the church itself was set further back.
As this map shows.

Extract from Alan Godfrey reprint of the OS Liverpool Sheet 29, 1848-64.

Hi Philip

That is my understanding as well, Philip.

Chris

[PhilipG]

Hi Philip

That is my understanding as well, Philip.

Chris

Yes, it's a case of "when the legend becomes greater than the truth, print the legend".
I might be mis-quoting somewhat! :)

"Churches of Liverpool" should be bought for the photos, not for the text.
I'm mis-quoting again, but that was one of the reviews.

[theninesisters]

A bit of info on the bells from St Peters:

• 1704: Church consecrated

• 1707: Back four bells cast

• 1724: Front four bells cast

• 1800: The first peal in Liverpool was rung here. Grandsire Triples.

• 1830: Bells dispersed when the 1830 peal was erected. Three of the 1707 bells were sent to St John, Knotty Ash (35½” the fifth), St Catherine Abercromby Square (36½” the sixth) and the tenor bell was sent to St Augustine Everton (52”). One of the 1724 bells found its way to St. John Liverpool (39”). The bell at St Catherine Abercromby Square had been broken up by 1928 (Cheetham) and the church demolished in 1966. St. Augustine Everton was destroyed by enemy bombing in May 1941 and St. John Liverpool was demolished in 1899 - the site now occupied by St. George’s Hall.
The bell at St. John Knotty Ash still exists.

The new 1830 ring of bells was first rung on Sunday April 11th 1830, the original 1830 trebles were recast in 1839 as the were found too weak


• 1905: Last peal at St Peter’s.

• c1920: The bells were removed from the tower by Taylor’s. After being stored both at Taylor’s and Mears’ and after tuning they were rehung at St. Helens Parish Church, although it was considered for a while to hang them at St. Barnabas Penny Lane, but this did not come to fruition as the vicar of Penny Lane at the time thought the tower not strong enough.

[ayjaykay]

I know David Lewis in his book "Churches of Liverpool" says that the cross is on the site of the High Altar of St Peter's.
The truth is that the cross is just there to remind passers-by of the church, and while it might just be inside the former grounds of the church, the church itself was set further back.
As this map shows.

Extract from Alan Godfrey reprint of the OS Liverpool Sheet 29, 1848-64.

That map has 'Tarlton Street' on it. Isn't it Tarleton Street (with an 'e') nowadays?

[PhilipG]

Paul has compiled a very comprehensive history on toxteth.net:

http://www.toxteth.net/places/liverpool/churches/st%20peters.htm

I made a small contribution. :)

[MissInformed]

A bit of info on the bells from St Peters:

• 1704: Church consecrated

• 1707: Back four bells cast

• 1724: Front four bells cast

• 1800: The first peal in Liverpool was rung here. Grandsire Triples.

• 1830: Bells dispersed when the 1830 peal was erected. Three of the 1707 bells were sent to St John, Knotty Ash (35½” the fifth), St Catherine Abercromby Square (36½” the sixth) and the tenor bell was sent to St Augustine Everton (52”). One of the 1724 bells found its way to St. John Liverpool (39”). The bell at St Catherine Abercromby Square had been broken up by 1928 (Cheetham) and the church demolished in 1966. St. Augustine Everton was destroyed by enemy bombing in May 1941 and St. John Liverpool was demolished in 1899 - the site now occupied by St. George’s Hall.
The bell at St. John Knotty Ash still exists.

The new 1830 ring of bells was first rung on Sunday April 11th 1830, the original 1830 trebles were recast in 1839 as the were found too weak


• 1905: Last peal at St Peter’s.

• c1920: The bells were removed from the tower by Taylor’s. After being stored both at Taylor’s and Mears’ and after tuning they were rehung at St. Helens Parish Church, although it was considered for a while to hang them at St. Barnabas Penny Lane, but this did not come to fruition as the vicar of Penny Lane at the time thought the tower not strong enough.

you and your bells!! :)

[theninesisters]

It's all good and rare information :celb (23):

[christy]

I like the story about nobody being able to decide on the design for the doorways so they used all four. Two can be seen in this picture - one with a full pediment and one with a broken one.

The cross is interesting in the pavement because church street is actually much wider than it was when the church was there and I wonder what was located above the cross. It is at least in the churchyard area if not below a wall or something. Would be interesting to see 2 maps overlayed.

[ChrisGeorge]

That map has 'Tarlton Street' on it. Isn't it Tarleton Street (with an 'e') nowadays?

Hi ayjaykay

You are correct. The family name was Tarleton, a powerful merchant family who grew to prominence in the affairs of Liverpool in the later 17th Century. I also noted that the "e" was missing on the map. John Tarleton was a mayor of Liverpool in the 1760's known as the "Great T" and his son was General Sir Banastre Tarleton, M.P. for Liverpool, who first made his reputation as a lieutenant colonel in the American War for Independence (1776-1783).

Chris

[PhilipG]

The correct spelling of Tarleton is on the later maps.

I'll post the 1890 & 1924 maps later (off out now).
The side wall of St Peter's aligns with the front wall of Woolworth's, but at a slight angle.
The cross is a few feet in front of the building (will check & see how far).
Besides, weren't altars always under the tower, or at least at the west end of the church?
Which is where St Peter's tower was.

[taffy]

The correct spelling of Tarleton is on the later maps.

I'll post the 1890 & 1924 maps later (off out now).
The side wall of St Peter's aligns with the front wall of Woolworth's, but at a slight angle.
The cross is a few feet in front of the building (will check & see how far).
Besides, weren't altars always under the tower, or at least at the west end of the church?
Which is where St Peter's tower was.


Altars can be anywhere in a church but the principal high altar is usually always at the nominal east end of the church. This has to do with facing Jerusalem. Interestingly St Nicholas at the Pierhead has the altar at the west end nearly under the tower. The churchwas designed after WW2 damage and rebuilding

[ayjaykay]

Aren't they reopening an 'arcade' through to School Lane as part of the Paradise Street developments? Will that go through the current HMV building (former Woolworths)?

[christy]

Dont know if its true but I heard it was going to be the old street at the side of WH Smiths - part of next. Hard to know which it will be. HMV have avery thin entrance and would have little shop left and next have their escalators on the side that would be taken from them. Cant see either wanting to lose floorspace so I wonder if one of them will be ,moving into the new development?

[ayjaykay]

Dont know if its true but I heard it was going to be the old street at the side of WH Smiths - part of next. Hard to know which it will be. HMV have avery thin entrance and would have little shop left and next have their escalators on the side that would be taken from them. Cant see either wanting to lose floorspace so I wonder if one of them will be ,moving into the new development?

Yes, I was thinking that HMV might move into the new development. I can't see Next moving, or losing 1/2 of their shop (which is 1 of their biggest branches).

The official site says "Conversion of an existing pair of shops into a one and two storey arcade and shop units. The intention with this break-through is to create a physical link to Peter's Lane from Church Street. The form of the existing building above ground level is to be respected and the new break-through to be sympathetic to the strong symmetry of the Church Street facade"

http://www.liverpoolpsda.co.uk/ProjectDetails/DetailedProjectPlans/site8.htm

and it looks like it's Top Shop or HMV rather than Next on this small image:

http://www.liverpoolpsda.co.uk/NR/rdonlyres/5373A3EA-7028-438B-A29D-B0A5BD360F17/265/Site8_plan1.gif

[PhilipG]

The image above is definitely HMV (Woolies).

The cross is about 12 feet from the front of the building.
But I have to admit that it's been relaid.
In the same place?
I do remember that it was some distance away.

Here's the maps I mentioned earlier.
The old one was surveyed in 1890, and the other in 1924.
Note that the block that Woolworths was in hadn't been completed.

[theninesisters]

I can think of very few Churches in Liverpool which have the alter under the Tower - most churches have an entrance at the bottom of the tower with the ringing chamber hidden part way up a tower.

[PhilipG]

[QUOTE=PhilipG;32538]
Besides, weren't altars always under the tower, QUOTE]

I can think of very few in Liverpool - most churches have an entrance at the bottom of the tower with the ringing chamber hidden part way up a tower.

Sorry Jona.

Was it the tower then that was always at the west end?
I was only going by memory before.
It's been a long time since I used to be a choirboy. :)

Anyway, the point of this discussion was the fact that the cross is not on the site of the altar.

[floyd]

My friend worked in HMV up until 10 months ago and he said then that they were moving to the new development

[theninesisters]

[QUOTE=Jona76;32600]

Sorry Jona.

Was it the tower then that was always at the west end?
I was only going by memory before.
It's been a long time since I used to be a choirboy. :)

Anyway, the point of this discussion was the fact that the cross is not on the site of the altar.


I'll agree with you there Philip about the cross not being on the site of the altar. Does anyone have any concrete (excuse the pun) evidence to this? I've heard it myself from a different source but I believe that this is the 'norm' but not true.

[christy]

Yes, youse are right, defo HMV. Be nice to have a better HMV in the new development because that one now is so awkward if there is a Queue at the front. Its so narrow its a pain getting through. Still a shame they couldn't open church lane up instead as it would be a more attractive street pattern IMO.

Would love to have seen that open space with the church in the centre and seen the original buildings facing on to the church with the Bluecoat at the rear. What a lovely space that would have been for the shopping area if the churchyard was planted.

Would love to have walked along Old Post Office place aswell - looks so interesting.

[ayjaykay]

The image above is definitely HMV (Woolies).

The cross is about 12 feet from the front of the building.


Yes, I thought that too. But Burtons is on the end of the block (corner of Church Alley), with Top Shop next door and then HMV. The diagram seems to have the end building (Burtons) and then HMV. Perhaps the new arcade will be through both Top Shop and HMV. It does say 2 existing shops on the official site.

http://www.liverpoolpsda.co.uk/NR/rdonlyres/5373A3EA-7028-438B-A29D-B0A5BD360F17/265/Site8_plan1.gif

[marky]

The symbol of St Peter, the Cross Keys, appear on the top of the Woolworths/HMV building (covered in anti-pigeon netting)

[lindylou]

I'm certainly learning plenty on this forum :PDT_Piratz_26:
I'll look out for that next time I'm in town.

[PhilipG]

The symbol of St Peter, the Cross Keys, appear on the top of the Woolworths/HMV building (covered in anti-pigeon netting)

Thanks, Marky.
That's some zoom lens you have. :celb (23):

[ayjaykay]

My friend worked in HMV up until 10 months ago and he said then that they were moving to the new development

Apparently, HMV is closing down in the next few days and they will start work creating the 'arcade' through to the new development. HMV will have a temporary shop in Bold Street (probably Radiant House, the former Gas showroom) until they open in the new development.

[Kev]

Yep, they are knocking a large hole through HMV which will create as u say, an 'arcade', the walkway will take shoppers through to the paradise street development. Wasn't there once a Burger King in HMV?

[ayjaykay]

Yep, they are knocking a large hole through HMV which will create as u say, an 'arcade', the walkway will take shoppers through to the paradise street development. Wasn't there once a Burger King in HMV?

Yes, there was a Burger King upstairs at the front in the 80s. I think upstairs might have been Burger King only, with HMV restricted to downstairs.

[christy]

Pretty sure that Burger king was there on its own upstairs and closed for HMV to take over. HMV was then just upstairs for a while until they took over some of Topshop downstairs and renovated the shop again. Seem to remember HMV having a small shop for a while somewhere else. Did they take over Revolver records in Lord street or am I imagining that?

[Brian Donaghy]

The brass cross that was embedded in a granite block as part of the kerb stone in Church St, has always been part of my family history.

If Dear Reader, you will recall, that during the 50's and 60's an oldish man stood with a religious banner right on that very spot.

On Saturday 25th October 2008, I visited Liverpool City centre and checked out the cross. In fact, the cross is a Maltese cross and not a conventional cross.

I discovevered that the cross in now located almost in the entrance of the new shopping arcade. I was able to take some photos with my daughters, a third generation from the craftsman who made the cross, my grandfather.

His name was Samuel Pilkington, and was a 'White Smith' working for the Liverpool Corporation based in Breckside Park just off Lower Breck Road, Anfield.

Sam worked for the 'Corpy' all his life, alongside fellow corporation Pavers, who were 'Taylor's' from my mother's side of the family. The original location of the cross was on the Kerb edge of Church St oppoosite the Tatler Cinema. It remained there from when Church St was first designed in the 1920's through until the area was pedestrianised.

Then the cross was moved further towards the shop fronts, and then it disappeared under builders hoardings until its new location.

The Maltese cross was made from brass that had been part of the alter rail from St Peter's Church, the Pro-Cathedral.

It's probable that the paver who carved the recess in the granite block for the cross, was also a relative of mine. I wonder how many people will notice a small brass cross embedded into the new pavement? 'Far too busy dashing backwards and forwards'. I recall there was a plaque on the wall of Woolworths Store in the 1950's - is there any reference to the cross now?

My grandfather (Pop) still has a son who may know more, if so, i'll come back to you on that. I've not lived on Merseyside for some years, as now living in Cumbria, but whenever I do return, I always look for the cross.

I'm in my three score and thirteenth year and note that Liverpool has changed so much in that time.

Ex-city centre worker throughout the 1950's - just my patch!

[drone_pilot]

WOW excellent info there Brian, Looking forward to more.

PS for those who dont know.


His name was Samuel Pilkington, and was a 'White Smith'

A whitesmith is a person who works with "white" or light-colored metals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal) such as tin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin) and pewter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pewter). While blacksmiths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacksmiths) work mostly with hot metal, whitesmiths do the majority of their work on cold metal (although they might use a forge to shape their raw materials).
The term is also applied to metalworkers who do only finishing work - such as filing or polishing - on iron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron) and other "black" metals.


From Wikipedia.

[burkhilly]

Thanks for the post Brian. I love the cross and to hear the history about it is great. Because it had been hidden for so long, I myself checked it out just last week. Ever since I was a child walking down Church Street, I've always looked out for the cross because it really is part of our heritage.

[dazza]

Hi everyone,

I remember reading somewhere that the design for St. Peter's Church, Church Street [consecrated 1704] was based on Wren's rebuilding of St. Andrew's Church, Holborn, London [1686]. I can't remember where I read this, but has intriged me ever since. I took some pictures of St Andrew's for comparison.

Does anyone have any information, or sources to back this up?

St Andrew's wasn't burn down during the great fire of London [1666] but was in such a state, that they decided to rebuild it anyway - only the original tower was kept, prior to the rebuild in 1686. The tower itself, was reclad in 1704, the same year that our own St. Peter's opened it's doors.

[Partsky]

Once again, superb stuff, Darren. Thank you so much for another wonderful post

[underworld]

Where on Church Street was it? Was it opposite Marks and Spencer and in front of the Bluecoat?

[ItsaZappathing]

Once again, superb stuff, Darren. Thank you so much for another wonderful post

Yep, I will go along with that too:handclap:

[Cadfael]

Interestingly enough, if you were to stand outside St Helen at St Helen's while the bells rang, you would be transported back to the City Centre (not literally) as the bells from St Peter's Church were saved and put in this tower!

[dazza]

Where on Church Street was it? Was it opposite Marks and Spencer and in front of the Bluecoat?
Diagonally opposite M&S
See the map attached.
.

[dazza]

Yep, I will go along with that too:handclap:
Partsky & ItsaZappathing - thanks guys, my pleasure, cheers :PDT_Aliboronz_24:

[underworld]

Gotcha

[wsteve55]

Where on Church Street was it? Was it opposite Marks and Spencer and in front of the Bluecoat?

There's a stone, with a small brass cross,set in the pavement,denoting where the altar was!This is roughly near where H.M.V. was,and a "Jesus saves" guy used to stand near it up to the early 80's! I think Ged's got a pic' of him on his site.

[Waterways]

Diagonally opposite M&S
See the map attached.
.

There was a brass cross in the kerb stone where the church was. Not sure if the cross is still there. Altar? Mmm I doubt it.

[dazza]

There was a brass cross in the kerb stone where the church was. Not sure if the cross is still there. Altar? Mmm I doubt it.

Maltese Cross, in a granite set - it's back there.

[dazza]

The Maltese cross location, in relation to St Peter's church altar. Hopefully this will clear things up a little. Descriptions are given below each image.



http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/dal8077/misc/Church%20Street/StPetersGoogleearthGRAVEYARD2.jpg

Image 1 ^ St. Peter's Church, Church Street.

Again, I've scaled the 1848 OS map over the Google earth view.

The green zone highlighted, is the boundary of the graveyard over today's pavement area. So, in fact, you've been walking over consecrated ground without even realising it? :shock: Although, it was probably deconsecrated before the demolition, and certainly before rebuilding.

The blue zone, represents the 'sanctuary' [ie: raised floor area], at the top of the nave, which was accessed by a couple of steps. The altar is located towards the rear of this zone.



http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/dal8077/misc/Church%20Street/StPetersGoogleearthGRAVEYARD3.jpg

Image 2 ^ St. Peter's Church, Church Street.

An enlargement of the map above, showing the sanctuary & 'altar' [in blue] and location of the Maltese cross in Church Street, . Also, part of Church Street and Church Lane's current pavement trespasses over the original graveyard, which I've highlighted in green.



http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/dal8077/misc/Church%20Street/St_Peters.jpg

[B]Image 3 ^ 1758 view of the Altar, St. Peter's. Unsourced image.



http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/dal8077/misc/Church%20Street/St_Peters_interiorLiverpool.jpg

Image 4 ^ St. Peter's Church, Church Street.

Postcard view, early 1900's.



http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/dal8077/misc/Church%20Street/St_peters21_08_1919.jpg

Image 5 ^ St. Peter's Church, Church Street. Internal view - LRO image, no date.

Image 6 shows the opposing external view of the window above the altar, from outside in Church Street.




http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/dal8077/misc/Church%20Street/St_Peters_from_Basnet_St.jpg

Image 6 ^ St. Peter's Church, Church Street - looking toward Lord Street



http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/dal8077/misc/Church%20Street/St_Peters_School_Church_lane.jpg

Image 7 ^ St. Peter's Church, looking down Church Alley.

The image was taken from in front of Bluecoat School gates. The Crompton Hotel [now M&S] can be seen in the background, with Basnett Street next to it, on the left.



http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/dal8077/misc/Church%20Street/church_street_cross.jpg

Image 8 ^ Maltese Cross representing St. Peter's Church, Church Street.

The cross falls outside the plan of the church, but is within the original church yard.[/U]



So where is the Altar now? The position of the actual 'Altar' is probably in one of the shops that now line the arcade through to School Lane. If I had the architect's drawings - I could locate it with some accuracy.

:)

[Samp]

Interestingly enough, if you were to stand outside St Helen at St Helen's while the bells rang, you would be transported back to the City Centre (not literally) as the bells from St Peter's Church were saved and put in this tower!

That?s interesting Cad, the wooden carvings from around the alter are also to be seen in the church in Churchtown near Southport.

[Cadfael]

That?s interesting Cad, the wooden carvings from around the alter are also to be seen in the church in Churchtown near Southport.

It's all a bit strange when it comes to the demolition of churches. I know for a fact that the bells from this church went to St Helen's because church bell's always can be found going in to a new home but you wonder what happens to the rest of the stuff once a church is demolished.

As with St Luke's, there were actually a few bells saved from the tower after the fire and the Corporation decided to have them sold for scrap in the 60's! :PDT_Xtremez_42:

[underworld]

When was it demolished? Funny how cemetaries were/are in the centre of towns. The Church in the centre of St Helens shopping area has a cemetary and regulary remains are unearthed by workmen. Also, Palmyra square/park in the centre of Warrington is actually a cemetary with many still buried there.

[Ged]

Brilliant pics and info dazza. I wonder why the church was slightly offset like that, I wonder if Church st originally followed that line but then the church wall is set along the lines of the street as it is now isn't it.

[Cadfael]

When was it demolished? Funny how cemetaries were/are in the centre of towns. The Church in the centre of St Helens shopping area has a cemetary and regulary remains are unearthed by workmen. Also, Palmyra square/park in the centre of Warrington is actually a cemetary with many still buried there.

1919 from my source though some say up till 1923. Another sad loss of a church even though it was the 'Pro Cathedral'.

[JMLE]

Another ebay...St. Peter's 1916 water colour

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j248/itsmma/StPeters.jpg

[wsteve55]

Brilliant pics and info dazza. I wonder why the church was slightly offset like that, I wonder if Church st originally followed that line but then the church wall is set along the lines of the street as it is now isn't it.

Fantastic pic's and detail Dazza,but I'm pretty sure that I read Church st. was, widened,after the church's demolition,and possibly,this would affect the position of the "altar" cross?

[dazza]

Fantastic pic's and detail Dazza,but I'm pretty sure that I read Church st. was, widened,after the church's demolition,and possibly,this would affect the position of the "altar" cross?

Thanks everyone for your posts, and thanks Ged and wsteve for your questions. Hopefully I'll be able to answer you both below.

Questions raised:

1. Where was the original building line of Church Street, as the street today is much wider?
2. St. Peter's church is set at a different angle to the street. Did the early buildings following this line, or the street line?
3. Where is current position of St Peter's Altar today, and does the Maltese cross sit directly over it, [city myth]?

OK, I think I've managed to answer all of them below. Image descriptions are given below each image.

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/dal8077/misc/Church%20Street/ChurchStmaps.jpg

Image 1 - 4 Maps of Church Street ^ 1725, 1765, 1769 & 1848 from LRO map collections.

John Chadwick's 1725 map - shows the Church Street, 21 years after the completion of St Peter's in 1704. Initially, a plot of land was selected on ground high enough to avoid the tidel extremes of the pool, which flowed across the junction of Lord Street, at that time. The south side of street was developed first, and with the introduction of Church Lane and Church Alley broke the street line into three faceted parts. The buildings of 1725, line through to meet the church's perimeter boundary wall, .

[I]John Eyes' 1765 map - shows that the pavement kerb edge, not the buildings, lining through with the church's boundary, which is a little confusing because only 4 years later [1769], George Perry surveys the area again, in much greater detail, and showing all the individual buildings - again the buildings now line through with the church's perimeter boundary wall.

The OS 1848 map - shows the building line close to the church boundary, but has started to recede back slightly, making the street marginally wider.

The original street line: The one constant here, is the church precinct [the church + churchyard, or temenos], which is consecrated ground, and is arguably beyond the commercial pressures of shopkeepers and residents that surround it. In general, the north side of churchyards are rarely used - no one wants to be burried where the sun never shines! Sometimes plots on this side were traditionally reserved for criminals, prostitutes, or unworthies. I mention this because church's tended to be positioned on site, to maximize as much of the south-facing aspect as possible, which was the case with St. Peter's. Therefore to move the boundary wall inward [after it's initial placing] would make little sense, similarly moving it outward, would make little sense also, as you would need to re-consecrate the land purchased, and besides that, no one would reserve a plot on the north side of a cemetery anyway, and would be a wasted exercise.

So, we can have confidence, that the church's north perimeter boundary wall, is the one reference which has not been altered through the years.


Answer to Q.1: Church Street's original building line, from 1704, is plotted on Images 2 & 3 below. The street widening and recession away from this line can be seen clearly on Image 3, particularly in the case of the old Post Office. Also see Image 4B, for the PO view.


Answer to Q.2: The buildings follow the street line, not the church's line. When the church-plot was purchased, builders on neighbouring plots would not have wasted any time setting up their designs and commenced building [represented by the thick black dashed line on image 2 & 3]. In setting out St Peter's, the architect, had decided to orientate the building about it's west/ east axis, as was the custom with most unrestricted sites.




http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/dal8077/misc/Church%20Street/StPetersGoogleearthMALTESEFINALLARG.jpg

Image 2 - Map overlay, Church Street ^ maps from 1848 & Today.

The 1848 map [shown in 'red'] is laid over a current map [shown in 'black'] and the original Church Street building line [1704] is shown in thick dashed line, and the church boundary, is shown in a smaller dashed line.

Image 3 is an enlargement of above.




http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/dal8077/misc/Church%20Street/StPetersGoogleearthMALTESEFINALSMAL.jpg

Image 3 - Enlargement of image 2 above, Church Street ^ maps from 1848 & Today.


Answer to Q.3: Notice the current arcade [from Church St. through to School Lane & Liverpool One] is shown on the map. I've plotted the actual location of St Peter's altar - which falls within the first unit, on the LH side of the arcade, and also - the Maltese cross is situated on the pavement just outside the arcade's entrance.

Also, notice the 'green' zone on the map which represents the extent of today's pavement over the original graveyard.

I hope this is finally case-closed for the Maltese cross over the altar myth?




http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/dal8077/misc/Church%20Street/ChurchStviews.jpg

Image 4 - 4 Herdman Views Around Church Street ^ from the LRO Herdman Collection.

Image 4B shows the widening of Church Street, with the demolition of the Old Post Office at the junction of Church St./ Church Alley.


If you've made it this far, thanks very much for reading. :)

[JMLE]

I don't know if that's a corner of St. Peter's peeking through in the gap in the buildings on the left but you can certainly see just how far back off the present street line the altar would be.

1910
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j248/itsmma/churchst.jpg

[dazza]

I don't know if that's a corner of St. Peter's peeking through in the gap in the buildings on the left but you can certainly see just how far back off the present street line the altar would be.

1910
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j248/itsmma/churchst.jpg

Hi JMLE, I think you're right, just in view. Nice image btw. :thumbsup:

:)

[Samp]

Bloody hell! Dazza, you?ve done it now.

If Tom Slemen finds out about the location of the arcade in relation to the old churchyard and cemetery, we are going to have ghosts and time warps every other week!

[dazza]

Bloody hell! Dazza, you?ve done it now.

If Tom Slemen finds out about the location of the arcade in relation to the old churchyard and cemetery, we are going to have ghosts and time warps every other week!

No worries Samp, all the remains were all removed in 1868, and re-interred in Anfield cemetery.

Ahhh....but, all the ghosts and spirits remain WOOoooo!!!http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-shocked015.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php).

[wsteve55]

Thanks for the info'Dazza,but as for the altar,I only repeated the "Myth", as quoted in one of the various Liverpool history books! I can't remember which one,but it looks like they(?) got it wrong! Maybe you should do one? :nod:

[dazza]

Thanks for the info'Dazza,but as for the altar,I only repeated the "Myth", as quoted in one of the various Liverpool history books! I can't remember which one,but it looks like they(?) got it wrong! Maybe you should do one? :nod:

Thanks wsteve55, the cross over altar is a city myth that's been around for as long as it's been set in the pavement. I just thought I'd cross this one off my list.

A book - well, I never say never? Thanks for the thought...

Daz

[dazza]

I thought I'd add a comparison before and after photo of the church.

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/dal8077/misc/Church%20Street/ChurchStview2.jpg

[underworld]

Sorry for being thick, I was there today and saw the brass maltese cross outsid of what is now Keys Court I think its called. Does the cross signify where the entrance to the church was or is that a myth? Also, was this known as the PRO cathedral and what did that mean - protestant? Was it a cathedral?

[dazza]

I was there today and saw the brass maltese cross outsid of what is now Keys Court I think its called. Does the cross signify where the entrance to the church was or is that a myth? Also, was this known as the PRO cathedral and what did that mean - protestant? Was it a cathedral?

A Pro-cathedral is a parish church that is temporarily serving as the cathedral or co-cathedral of a diocese. It can be Prothestant or Catholic.

Maltese Cross - it's all explained on Post No. 20, on this thread [copied below]. Sorry if most have seen this before.



Thanks everyone for your posts, and thanks Ged and wsteve for your questions. Hopefully I'll be able to answer you both below.

Questions raised:

1. Where was the original building line of Church Street, as the street today is much wider?
2. St. Peter's church is set at a different angle to the street. Did the early buildings following this line, or the street line?
3. Where is current position of St Peter's Altar today, and does the Maltese cross sit directly over it, [city myth]?

OK, I think I've managed to answer all of them below. Image descriptions are given below each image.

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/dal8077/misc/Church%20Street/ChurchStmaps.jpg

Image 1 - 4 Maps of Church Street ^ 1725, 1765, 1769 & 1848 from LRO map collections.

John Chadwick's 1725 map - shows the Church Street, 21 years after the completion of St Peter's in 1704. Initially, a plot of land was selected on ground high enough to avoid the tidel extremes of the pool, which flowed across the junction of Lord Street, at that time. The south side of street was developed first, and with the introduction of Church Lane and Church Alley broke the street line into three faceted parts. The buildings of 1725, line through to meet the church's perimeter boundary wall, .

[I]John Eyes' 1765 map - shows that the pavement kerb edge, not the buildings, lining through with the church's boundary, which is a little confusing because only 4 years later [1769], George Perry surveys the area again, in much greater detail, and showing all the individual buildings - again the buildings now line through with the church's perimeter boundary wall.

The OS 1848 map - shows the building line close to the church boundary, but has started to recede back slightly, making the street marginally wider.

The original street line: The one constant here, is the church precinct [the church + churchyard, or temenos], which is consecrated ground, and is arguably beyond the commercial pressures of shopkeepers and residents that surround it. In general, the north side of churchyards are rarely used - no one wants to be burried where the sun never shines! Sometimes plots on this side were traditionally reserved for criminals, prostitutes, or unworthies. I mention this because church's tended to be positioned on site, to maximize as much of the south-facing aspect as possible, which was the case with St. Peter's. Therefore to move the boundary wall inward [after it's initial placing] would make little sense, similarly moving it outward, would make little sense also, as you would need to re-consecrate the land purchased, and besides that, no one would reserve a plot on the north side of a cemetery anyway, and would be a wasted exercise.

So, we can have confidence, that the church's north perimeter boundary wall, is the one reference which has not been altered through the years.


Answer to Q.1: Church Street's original building line, from 1704, is plotted on Images 2 & 3 below. The street widening and recession away from this line can be seen clearly on Image 3, particularly in the case of the old Post Office. Also see Image 4B, for the PO view.


Answer to Q.2: The buildings follow the street line, not the church's line. When the church-plot was purchased, builders on neighbouring plots would not have wasted any time setting up their designs and commenced building [represented by the thick black dashed line on image 2 & 3]. In setting out St Peter's, the architect, had decided to orientate the building about it's west/ east axis, as was the custom with most unrestricted sites.




http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/dal8077/misc/Church%20Street/StPetersGoogleearthMALTESEFINALLARG.jpg

Image 2 - Map overlay, Church Street ^ maps from 1848 & Today.

The 1848 map [shown in 'red'] is laid over a current map [shown in 'black'] and the original Church Street building line [1704] is shown in thick dashed line, and the church boundary, is shown in a smaller dashed line.

Image 3 is an enlargement of above.




http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/dal8077/misc/Church%20Street/StPetersGoogleearthMALTESEFINALSMAL.jpg

Image 3 - Enlargement of image 2 above, Church Street ^ maps from 1848 & Today.


Answer to Q.3: Notice the current arcade [from Church St. through to School Lane & Liverpool One] is shown on the map. I've plotted the actual location of St Peter's altar - which falls within the first unit, on the LH side of the arcade, and also - the Maltese cross is situated on the pavement just outside the arcade's entrance.

Also, notice the 'green' zone on the map which represents the extent of today's pavement over the original graveyard.

I hope this is finally case-closed for the Maltese cross over the altar myth?




http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/dal8077/misc/Church%20Street/ChurchStviews.jpg

Image 4 - 4 Herdman Views Around Church Street ^ from the LRO Herdman Collection.

Image 4B shows the widening of Church Street, with the demolition of the Old Post Office at the junction of Church St./ Church Alley.


If you've made it this far, thanks very much for reading. :)

[pablo42]

Great stuff Daza. Nice one.

[ChrisGeorge]

Fine work here, Dazza. You've put a lot of effort into this and it is appreciated! :handclap:

C :PDT_Aliboronz_24:

[dazza]

Fine work here, Dazza. You've put a lot of effort into this and it is appreciated! :handclap:

C :PDT_Aliboronz_24:

Thanks for that Chris. I like playing around with maps, photo's etc... So hopefully it'll help explain the Maltese Cross / Altar myth.

[Kev]

Fantastic Darren :)

[dazza]

Cheers Kev. :PDT_Aliboronz_24:

[knowhowe]

A truly fascinating and informative thread. Many thanks to everyone for this. I'll never walk past this site again without imagining the old church there!

I may have missed it if it's been mentioned previously, but should note that, as well as the brass cross, the old church is also commemorated by the cross keys of St. Peter which can still be seen carved high on the facade of what was the Woolworth's building (the first one in Britain).

In 1880 John Charles Ryle was appointed the first Bishop of Liverpool and was installed in Saint Peter?s Church, the Pro-Cathedral, which was later described by the Rector of Liverpool as ?ugly & hideous?...

[Ged]

is also commemorated by the cross keys of St. Peter which can still be seen carved high on the facade of what was the Woolworth's building (the first one in Britain).

Though it was originally on the other side of Church st.

[dazza]

Though it was originally on the other side of Church st.

Ged/ knowhowe,

The cross keys are picked up in an earlier thread. See post #24 here. (http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3125&highlight=peters&page=3)

Maybe we should joined these threads together? I'll see what Kev thinks?

D.

[dazza]

Crossed Keys are traditionally a symbol of St. Peter - being the first pope, and keeper to the gates of heaven.

We can see that the original architect of "Keys Court" [another reference] has deliberately set out to recreate these 'gates of heaven' in the building's facade design. Basically, the area where the new bronze infill panels [incl. clock] are located - suggesting a great portal, or entrance.

At the top of this suggested 'gateway' is a pair of sculptured "crossed keys", which reinforces the architectural metaphor below, of a god-proportioned entrance. Similar to the giant doorways you often see on Greek temples.

---

Woolworths - this was also the site of Woolworths, as I'm sure they'll be lots of members who can still remember it there? The first Woolies originally started across the street in 1909, [as St. Peter's church occupied this site from 1704-1922]. The original Woolworth building still stands today, and can be viewed here (http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4377&highlight=woolworths&page=6) in post #52, which is the Clarke's shoeshop in the photo. It was previously the 'Henry Miles' shop, which you can see in the postcard view, opposite to St. Peter's, which is just visible on the right. The original store front that faced St Peter's church [for 13 years] can also be seen.

---

Images - 1. Keys Court entrance, and 2. close up. 3. pre-1909 view of Church St. [looking towards Central Stn], 4. The original Woolworths Church St. shopfront.

Apologies, the image resolution is not great on the second image - hopefully, someone with a super powerful zoom lens can take some detailed shots for us all when passing? Any volunteers? :)

[wsteve55]

Though it was originally on the other side of Church st.

Think your right there,Ged! (oops,didn't finish the thread!)

[knowhowe]

Though it was originally on the other side of Church st.

Oops. Quite right.

The thread about Liverpool's Woolies is very interesting-

http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?p=207149&posted=1#post207149

I've added a bit there about the first Woolies here in Chester.

[underworld]

Here is a postcard view from 1904.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2735/4282187093_c2901a0c8b_b.jpg

[Colin Wilkinson]

Hi Philip,
You are right about Churches of Liverpool. It does suffer from a number of factual inaccuracies and I was never entirely happy with it. The major problem was the lack of an index - which makes navigate the book very frustrating. I am planning a revised book - with many new photos (again I was disappointed with the printing - it was in the early days of digital photography and there is quite a bit of bitmapping).
How is Tramride to Walton[/I] coming on. Still interested.

[seduce the enemy]

Hi guys my first post and im not from Liverpool (sorry)

Firstly I am an architecture student and i am doing my dissertation on churches and I can tell you why St Peters does not "line up" with the street. This is to do with the alter facing exactly east in the direction of Bethlehem. I also have a question as I am currently doing a theoretical project on church street which is partially about remembering the church which is the founding of the streets name ( I assume). I am wondering what the church was built out of I suspect it is either portland stone or sandstone but im not sure and it would greatly help me with my project? I very much enjoyed reading this thread and found the information about the keys on the old woolworths building and the Maltese Cross on the floor of particular interest, I hadnt noticed them when i was there. It is a shame that they are so easy to walk past and not notice as the church was the founding of the street. I hope my answer is of interest and that someone knows the answer to my question.

Thanks

[lindylou]

Hi and welcome.

This is a fascinating thread, glad it's been ressurected. :PDT11
I've just read through all the posts and it's very interesting.

[dazza]

Hi STE, and welcome to Yo!

As you predicted, St Peters is aligned exactly on a West/East axis, (as in Greek, Roman & Christian religions.) There was very little built on the north side of Church Street at the time of its consecration in 1704. If you were lucky enough to attend the first service - and travelling in from Lord Street, you would have crossed a stone bridge, over the Pool, to access Church Street, as the Old Dock was not completed for another 11 years, in 1715.

I believe the church/pro-cathedral was constructed from red sandstone, similar, if not the same as the Anglican cathedral stonework.

[Ged]

Welcome back dazza. Nice description of the walk up to the church.

[lindylou]

Ditto.

[dazza]

Thanks Ged :PDT11

It's been a while since my last post! Good to be back though. I did manage to make it down to the Museum of Liverpool two weeks ago. I recognised your model - congratulations - at last, a worthy home for it, fantastic. I loved the graffiti on the walls, and the Corpi doing works to the pavement; real attention to detail. Well done.

Daz

[Ged]

Thanks dazza, just as I remember it. The memories it has evoked and the various contacts i've received have been immense. Hope you're staying longer this time round.

[dazza]

That's brilliant. I'll be around for a few more posts this time.:PDT_Aliboronz_24:

[ChrisGeorge]

Nice to see you back here, Dazza.

Chris

[seduce the enemy]

Thanks very much guys that is helpful I wouldnt have thought it would have been that material but it will make interesting contemplation for this project. Might be posting again very soon as im using the metropolitan cathedral for my dissertation.

[dazza]

Nice to see you back here, Dazza.

Chris

Thanks Chris, and good to hear from you. I'm still catching on some of the more recent posts. I'm sorry I missed you when you were back in Liverpool for your Mom's service. I'm glad you made the journey, as you had mentioned it previously.

All the best,

Daz

[fortinian]

Nice to have you back Dazza.

[dazza]

Nice to have you back Dazza.
Thanks fortinian. :PDT11

[wsteve55]

Hi Dazza,glad to see you back! Just wondered if there are any Herdman prints of that view,or similar?

[dazza]

Hi Steve, thanks, and good to hear from you. I would be surprized if there wasn't a Herdman painting of St Peters. Perhaps Kev might have posted one on his Herdman threads?

Here's a coloured postcard view:

http://www.churches-uk-ireland.org/images/mersey/liverpool/peter.jpg

[Ged]

See what we've been missing. I'm sure ive seen/got a Herdman of St. Peters.