Barclay's (Martin's) Bank Doors Linked to Slavery?

[Ged]

A bit off topic but as slavery has been mentioned. The sculptures at the entrance to the Martins bank buildings on Water St show a merchant pressing his hands down onto the heads of two African boys. I was led to believe this was to do with slavery. Frank Carlyle in Liverpool unseen gives the opposite account mentioning what they are carrying and says that it signifies that the prosperity of the city and this building in particular being a bank is helping the lesser poorer nations? Anyone got the real take on it?

[MissInformed]

i watched a programme a while back (can't for the life of me remember what it was)
and a Liverpool history expert was showing someone those 'slavery sculpture/carvings' mentioned by ged and the man said they were deffo to do with slavery.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Ged and Miss

As you see, I made us a whole new thread on this topic. :celb (6):

As described in the the description of Liverpool treasures on the Liverpool Liverpool's World Heritage site (http://www.liverpoolworldheritage.com/castlestreet.asp), that the ornamentation on the bank building is meant to just "celebrate maritime themes as well as money."

It would seem that the frieze around the Town Hall is more correctly linked to slavery, for, as stated in the same source:

John Prestwich, in General View of the Town ... of Liverpool, (c. 1780,) describes the Town Hall:

"The Exchange is an elegant square edifice built of hewn stone with the front and one side only in view the rest being obscured by the houses which are built close to it ... Between the Capitals runs an Entablature or Fillet on which are placed in base relief the Busts of Blackamoors & Elephants with the Teeth of the Latter, with such like emblematical Figures, representing the African Trade & Commerce."

Can someone provide a photograph of the bronze doors? Thanks in advance. I worked for a while in the bank when it was Martin's Bank so I am interested for that reason as well.

Chris

[Ged]

Ref: Slavery links. Someone (I think on a recent Herbert Tyson Smith tour of the city centre) mentioned that a frieze on the South portico of the St. Georges Hall was removed during the restoration and not replaced due to its slavery implications. Does anyone know if this is right? It wasn't by Tyson Smith but just mentioned in passing. We were looking at HTS bronze cenotaph sculptures at the time.

[PhilipG]

Ref: Slavery links. Someone (I think on a recent Herbert Tyson Smith tour of the city centre) mentioned that a frieze on the South portico of the St. Georges Hall was removed during the restoration and not replaced due to its slavery implications. Does anyone know if this is right? It wasn't by Tyson Smith but just mentioned in passing. We were looking at HTS bronze cenotaph sculptures at the time.


That is the reason why it hasn't been replaced, but it was taken down in 1950 because it became unsafe.
Political Correctness seems to me to be an excuse not to bother going to the expense of putting it back.

[Ged]

I couldn't agree more. The thing is, even the slave tour guide wants these things on show as a reminder. It is not healthy to hide such things as unsavoury as they were.

[ChrisGeorge]

I couldn't agree more. The thing is, even the slave tour guide wants these things on show as a reminder. It is not healthy to hide such things as unsavoury as they were.

Perhaps we should lobby the lady councillor who wanted to change the street names to bring better awareness of the city's slavery links. It would seem to be a good reason to restore frieze on the South portico of the St. Georges Hall with appropriate information and news coverage. :Colorz_Grey_PDT_16:

[MissInformed]

Perhaps we should lobby the lady councillor who wanted to change the street names to bring better awareness of the city's slavery links. It would seem to be a good reason to restore frieze on the South portico of the St. Georges Hall with appropriate information and news coverage. :Colorz_Grey_PDT_16:

i couldnt believe she wanted to change Penny Lane!
:) from the tourism aspect, it is such a sacred place for many people the world over!

[MissInformed]

i watched a programme a while back (can't for the life of me remember what it was)
and a Liverpool history expert was showing someone those 'slavery sculpture/carvings' mentioned by ged and the man said they were deffo to do with slavery.

just remembered!
It was the first series of Coast on BBC1.

[ChrisGeorge]

i couldnt believe she wanted to change Penny Lane!
:) from the tourism aspect, it is such a sacred place for many people the world over!


I get the impression that it was the sudden realisation that Penny Lane was among the streets whose name had to be changed that broke the back of the proposal. From then on the idea was dead in the water.

Chris

[ChrisGeorge]

i watched a programme a while back (can't for the life of me remember what it was)
and a Liverpool history expert was showing someone those 'slavery sculpture/carvings' mentioned by ged and the man said they were deffo to do with slavery.

just remembered!
It was the first series of Coast on BBC1.


Of course, it could be the producers' impression that the sculptures at the entrance to the bank building had to do with slavery, although that might not have been the artist's intention.

Chris

[knowhowe]

Excuse the ignorance, I missed out on this story of the proposed street name changes. What's the connection between Penny Lane and PC and/or slavery?

Lots of Liverpool streets were named after those involved in the Africa trade. Has there ever been a move to change these names?

I recall that the statue at the end of Prince's Avenue was removed because of an ignorant local idea that its subject was one of them- even though he lived far too late to have ever participated in the trade...

[ChrisGeorge]

Excuse the ignorance, I missed out on this story of the proposed street name changes. What's the connection between Penny Lane and PC and/or slavery?

Lots of Liverpool streets were named after those involved in the Africa trade. Has there ever been a move to change these names?

I recall that the statue at the end of Prince's Avenue was removed because of an ignorant local idea that its subject was one of them- even though he lived far too late to have ever participated in the trade...

Hi Steve

Captain James Penny, for whom Penny Lane was named, was a slave trader. The proposal was to rename the streets of Liverpool associated with slavery with names that would recognize Abolitionists instead. As I stated above, I personally think that it was the realization that the name of "Penny Lane" one of the most famous streets in the city had to be changed that killed the proposal. You can read more about it on icLiverpool (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/thedebate/tm_method=full%26objectid=17361981%26siteid=50061-name_page.html). Eventually council leader Warren Bradley (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_method=full%26objectid=17354060%26siteid=50061-name_page.html) put an end to the proposal probably realising it would not work in the face of so much opposition to it.

Chris

[snappel]

All seems stupid to me - why rename streets? Who's is going to appease? Or will it make white do-gooders feel better about themselves and less 'guilty'? I hate all this denial of our past - Liverpool as a major city was built off the slave trade, so short of smashing up every one of our historic buildings we'd be better off just getting on with it.

Yes the 'slave trade' was bad (just go and see the Maritime Museum's exhibition...), but it formed only a very small part of the world's history of slavery, involving all races both as slaves and traders. It happened, it still happens, and renaming streets isn't going to change that.

Why rename them after abolitionists? Why do the council feel the need to do this? Do they think it'll make history go away? Of course it won't! Some of these people need to grow some balls and stop faffing about.

[Ged]

I agree with all you say there Snappel except that the city was built off the slave trade. This should be firmly put in the Urban Myth section. On the Roger Phillips BBC radio Merseyside phone-in (at the time of the street name change proposal) - a scholar rang in to say he'd had an argument with someone over this very issue and he was told to go and study his facts and history of the city so he did as he believed he was right because of what his elders had told him. Guess what - he was. Before and during the slave trade, Liverppol did more business with Ireland, the Isle of Man and other non slave trade routes than they ever did to do with slavery. This isn't hiding the facts, this is the facts and his sources were the Liverpool records office, William Brown st.

[snappel]

On that note, Ged, I stand corrected.

However, there's no denying (as we all know) that goods from South America that had been traded using slaves arrived here in large numbers. Fair enough, it may not have been a large proportion of Liverpool's trade, but either way I'm not ashamed to be associated with Liverpool, and I'd never be ashamed to walk down/live on a road named after someone prominent in the slave trade.

All this re-writing of history is reminiscent of 1984. If it's illegal to deny the Holocaust, how can we get away with proposing to rename 'slave trade' streets? It sounds like sweeping under the carpet and 'tidying up' to me. Oh, let's name them after abolitionists, that'd be PC... I disagree. I think it's just patronising Afro-American communities.

The fact that Britain and North America (first nation to actively try and abolish it?) no longer participate in a slave trade/triangle should be enough. Liverpool councillors today would not participate in such activities given the chance, so they've nothing to feel guilty about.

[Ged]

Yes. Agreed. I for one don't want any council apologising on my behalf. It was a bad thing, but the way of the world back then and other races were by far running slaves trades a lot earlier and a lot later than ours. It doesn't justify it but puts it into perspective - in fact aren't some still doing it.

[Ged]

http://www.liverpools7streets.co.uk/water/martins14.htm

[fortinian]

I agree that Liverpool didn't make it's money solely off the slave trade but it was a hugely significant factor in Liverpools boom.

As for Martins Bank, the building was constructed in 1932 - 125 years after abolition. It would be strange for slavery to be included on a bank carving over 100 years later.

[Ged]

I remember a caller to BBC Radio Merseyside, having been told by someone to go and check his facts regarding the slavery wealth of the city, did just that. His call was to enlighten us. Apparently, after scouring records for months in the Picton Library search room, he found that Liverpool was coining it in from far fewer known sources during the slavery period that what slavery ever produced - these being our trade with Ireland and The Isle of Man.

[elf]

The East Indies supplied both the cloths and beads which formed a major and essential part of the Guinea cargoes. The English East India Company supplies were high-priced. It was possible to import the less expensive Dutch East India Company goods into the Isle of Man from Holland. Between 1718 and 1764 slaving vessels called at the Island to collect these goods en route for Africa.

On 22 January 1761 Paul Bridson imported into Douglas from on board the Bonac, Jan Wolfers master, from Rotterdam the goods displayed in the table.

28 chests Beads arangoes or red carnelian beads from Indial
7 casks Baft from India coarse cotton cloth from
1 chest Chintz India painted or stained calico more expensive than the bafts
15 chests Silesias fine linen or cotton fabric from Silesia
154 casks Cowries Small shells from the Maldive Islands off India
3 casks 748 dozen knives also used as part of the ‘pawn’ to purchase slaves
14 hoops Ling fish provisions for the voyage

The value of these Guinea goods, excluding the knives whose value is not listed, was £4,056 (over £240,000 in current values). Part of the customs record for this landing is shown below.

The Top 20 Merchants importing Guinea goods into the Isle of Man, 1718-1764
1 Paul Bridson
2 William Teare
3 William Murray Senior
4 William Quayle
5 John Joseph Bacon
6 Thomas Arthur
7 Patrick Savage
8 John Murray
9 Robert Kennedy
10 Phil Finch
11 Mary Reeves
12 Philip Moore
13 Hugh Cosnahan
14 Andrew Savage
15 Ross, Black & Christian
16 John Frissel
17 Edward Moore
18 Catherine Halsall
19 James Oates
20 John Taubman

paul bridson was the islands chief constable

there was probibly more cash changing hands on the final passage dropping contraband on the island before discharging cargo in england

[miguel]

Ref: the southern portico of St George's Hall. The missing frieze. The best authority to my mind is Terry McGunigle of the Merseyside Forum for Sculpture, Painting & Allied Crafts.
Terry is Florence trained and has a sculpture CV (the Liverpool greats) that ranks with the great masters. He has a mock-up (makes it sound like a patch-up) faithful copy of this frieze at his studios. He is rarin' to go on this restoration but ironically, artists with his considerable gifts are denied resources - some Capital of Culture eh?
He is supremely talented is Terry; wonderfully deserving but understandably frustrated. Yes, if we could get the money together that wonderful frieze would be restored. Terry's details: 07904 748 725 / 0151 298 9185. The (cash starved) Merseyside Forum . . . . Borden Court, 145 / 163 London Road. Lost in a labyrinth of an old department store). terry.mcgunigle@ukonline.co.uk An artist well worth knowing.

[Ged]

Terry has made some of the plaques/monuments commission by Ron Formby of the Scottie Press - a friend of mine, yes Terry could be better supported.

[julieoapw]

The guide in question is well-known for spicing up Liverpool's slavery connections whereas it's a serious enough subject as it is - there's no need to exaggerate. Martins was built in the 1930s so unlikely to be slavery related. The same guide says the French POWS at Nelson's memorial are slaves and the ship of St Nicholas and his flower (built 1952) are a slave ship and a cotton plant.
He's well-known in guiding circles. A black historian was irate by the incorrect info he gives out as it undermines the cause.


just remembered!
It was the first series of Coast on BBC1.

[woody]

. Martins was built in the 1930s so unlikely to be slavery related. .

It does have a link to slavery, Martins bank incorporated Heywood`s Bank which was founded by Arthur and Benjamin Heywood, who owned slaving ships.:disgust:

[fortinian]

I think what he meant was that the building itself (rather than the bank) is unlikely to have direct references to slavery. If you look at the style of the building it is art-deco, a style famous for its use of 'ethnic' influences (Egyptian, Ethyopian etc...) and the figures are clearly allegorical representing the wealth of the sea, shipping, maritime trade in general and not explicitly slavery.

[Ged]

I noticed the slavery museum thread was closed.

According to a Radio Merseyside phone-in caller there is a very good book available from the library called White Gold (by Giles Milton)

It concerns white slaves, captured in Southern England, Southern Ireland (including the whole town of Baltimore, S.I) - and as far away as Scandinavia.

Captured by the Algerians and Moroccans of North Africa from 1600 until 1820with torturous and wanton violence consequences. Piracy was involved and it eminated from the Moors being driven out of Spain. Sounded interesting anyway but where's the museum?

[Ged]

That is the reason why it hasn't been replaced, but it was taken down in 1950 because it became unsafe.
Political Correctness seems to me to be an excuse not to bother going to the expense of putting it back.


See this.....

Seems like a lot of money to me and possibly unobtainable. Why does it have to be marble?


http://www.finishoffgeorge.co.uk/

[taffy]

For those who want a more detailed and historically correct analysis of slave trade, I'd recommend they read " Liverpool, the Afican Slave Trade, and Abolition" edited by Anstey and Hair published 1989. ISBN 0 9503591 5 7

It's contents may surprise many. There's a very detailed chapter on the role of wealthy African intermediaries ( local kings, merchants etc) in gathering up slaves from the more interior areas for sale to the slave ship captains. So if Liverpool feels it has to apologise for the slave trade, it's clear others should too.

[taffy]

I agree that Liverpool didn't make it's money solely off the slave trade but it was a hugely significant factor in Liverpools boom.

.

Not really see post 29

[PhilipG]

See this.....

Seems like a lot of money to me and possibly unobtainable. Why does it have to be marble?


http://www.finishoffgeorge.co.uk/


Why on earth wasn't it done as part of the millions spent restoring SGH for Prince Charles' visit in April?
I can't see it happening now in my lifetime.

[Ged]

Not really see post 29


Also read White Gold by Milton about the North African slave traders, trading the white people of Southern England, Ireland and Scandinavia.

I've already mentioned elsewhere that Liverpool's largest income from trade at the Black African slave times was with Ireland and the Isle of Man. Source: LRO.

[fortinian]

I forgot about this thread but since my last post I have come across White Gold. It was a real eye-opener. I've known for a while that Liverpools slavery connections/dependency were often overplayed but I never realised to what extent.

As for my original comment, I think it still stands; slavery was a big factor in Liverpool boom (albiet 18th century one) but the majority of Liverpools wealth and subsequent 19th century superboom were not dependent on slavery.

I hope this is more correct, feel free to offer your oppinions :D

[Waterways]

I forgot about this thread but since my last post I have come across White Gold. It was a real eye-opener. I've known for a while that Liverpools slavery connections/dependency were often overplayed but I never realised to what extent.

As for my original comment, I think it still stands; slavery was a big factor in Liverpool boom (albiet 18th century one) but the majority of Liverpools wealth and subsequent 19th century superboom were not dependent on slavery.

I hope this is more correct, feel free to offer your opinions :D

You are right. 2/3 of all people taken from Africa to the Americas were in Liverpool keels. However it was only a sideline. The wealth was in general trade, not slavery. The rise of America saw the rise of the port and city. And the city was founded on the shipment and trade of ....Cheshire salt. Hence Salthouse Dock. The biggest anti-slavery people were in Liverpool.

The white slavers from North Africa are underplayed - the Corsairs. They did take the whole population of one Irish village once into slavery in North Africa. However, although the Arabs were the most numerous of the Corsairs, the biggest were Europeans, mainly a Dutchman who operated from North Africa.

Slavery is still going on today in Africa. As white men are not involved, it is not newsworthy.

[fortinian]

That's right, in any case when we say 'slave trade' it is a bit of a misnomer - it clearly doesn't tell the full story.

Where we say 'slave trade' we could also say 'sugar trade', 'cotton trade', 'tobacco trade'. Trade is a multi-faceted thing. I think because it is more common to use 'slave trade' people get this idea that slaves actually came to Liverpool.

Plus: Many merchants in Liverpool made their money from trading tobacco, cotton and sugar that was grown on slave planations but did not actively partake in the buying and selling of slaves themselves. Their profits therefore are from the trading of goods rather than of slaves. It is a thin line but nevertheless an important one to remember.

[Ged]

Agreed. It's just like asking if that jumper you're wearing has been made by sweatshops. We may at some time or other buy goods (knowingly or unknowingly) that have a sinister origin, even foodstuffs.