The Liverbirds

[Kev]

David Charters - Daily Post

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/icliverpool/sep2005/2/0/000E8D39-FA54-1338-82FE0C02AC1BF824.jpg


WITH his skilled hands and soaring imagination, the man with the modest smile could give life to a block of wood.


But nobody ever spoke of the gentle carver's greatest creations, even when they became one of the most potent symbols in the world - silent sentinels over a throbbing port, ever-watching the sullen-grey roll of the water below them.

Now, 50 years after his death, a forgotten and shunned German is to be remembered for designing the two birds which perch high on the Royal Liver Building, at the Pier Head.

A plaque in his memory is to be placed in the entrance hall to the building. It should be up in plenty of time for the celebrations of 2007, marking the 800th anniversary of King John granting Liverpool its Royal Charter, which provides the ideal lead into the following year's European Capital of Culture.

After all, we are talking of a European who made a huge contribution to Liverpool's recent history, though his name will not be familiar to many of you.

For most of the history books do not mention Carl Bernard Bartels, designer of the Liver Birds, known to people all over the world as the emblem of Liverpool.

Yes, New York has its Statue of Liberty, or Liberty Enlightening the World, the 150ft colossus of the sculptor August Bartholdi, placed on an iron framework designed by Gustave Eiffel, who also gave Paris its 984ft tower.

But the association between Liverpool and its birds is unique. They are on the crest of numerous companies and organisations, most notably Liverpool City Council and Liverpool Football Club.

It is impossible to calculate how much they would have been worth if they were a commercial brand - but think of a big number and then add noughts until you fall asleep.

More than all that, though, they were a vision of comfort to homeward-bound sailors. If the Liver Birds were on their perch, God must be in his Heaven. Their disappearance into the distance has swelled lumps in the throats of the thousands leaving the river, some never to return.

Of course, they weren't the port's first Liver Birds. But the design of the pair atop the Liver Building became the standard, copied by everyone else.

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/icliverpool/sep2005/1/0/0003987A-FA2D-1338-82FE0C02AC1BF824.jpg

Their "father", Carl Bernard Bartels, was the son of Carl Julius Bartels, a wood carver from the Black Forest. The boy was brought up in Stuttgart and trained under his father, before coming to Britain in 1887 with his young bride, Mathilde Zappe. He was 21.

The couple immediately liked the country and decided to make it their home. They took up British nationality and settled in the London borough of Haringey, where they had a son, Bernard Charles Bartels, and a daughter, Maggie.

Gradually, their father was gaining a reputation as an exquisite worker in wood. Meanwhile, in Liverpool, in 1908, work began on the construction of the Royal Liver Building, designed by the architect Walter Aubrey Thomas. An international competition was held to find a design for the two birds which were to sit on its twin clock towers.

Carl won. His birds were made by the Bromsgrove Guild, a group talented in the Arts and Crafts movement which ceased to be many years ago. The famous building, in many ways similar to those in New York, was completed in 1911.


Three years later, the Great War broke out. Anti-German feeling swept through the UK. Yet, since the middle of the 19th century, Germans had been settling in Liverpool. Pork butchers from the Hohenlohe area, near Stuttgart, knotted their sausages. The fruity smells of baking pastries and the steam from sauerkraut joined the air of a city already rich in aromas.

Other Germans worked in the sugar refineries and public houses. But that did little to assuage the hostility of local people. In this mood, Bartels's blueprints and sketches of the Liver Birds were lost or destroyed.

Even more seriously, Bartels was interned with others of German origin in a camp at Knockaloe, on the Isle of Man, even though he had been a naturalised Briton for more than 20 years.

Conditions were harsh at the camp, but a spirit of camaraderie developed, particularly among the artists. In Liverpool, anger against the Germans reached its zenith with the sinking of the Lusitania, inbound to the port, in May, 1915. There were riots and German properties were stoned and looted.


After the war, Bartels had to return to Germany, though we are not sure why, leaving his family in London. To come back to his family in England, he had to find an employer, who would vouch for him. This was done.

More (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=16178415%26method=full%26siteid=50061% 26page=3%26headline=we%2dshould%2dcarve%2dhis%2dna me%2dwith%2dpride-name_page.html)

[Kev]

The Liverbirds themselves are a cross between the cormorant and the eagle of St John the Evangelist adopted by King John, who had granted Liverpool its Royal Charter as a port in 1207.

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/icliverpool/nov2005/4/6/0009B435-11FF-136F-BA3A0C02AC1BF824.jpg

Plans that are being discussed have suggested that a 3rd Liverbird should built and errected on the ground to give people a sense of the size of the original Liverbirds that have stood proud for so long. The new bird would be constructed in time for 2007. http://www.liverpool07.com/wp-images/smilies/icon_smile.gif


Read the details of this here (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=16341066%26method=full%26siteid=50061% 26headline=the%2dliver%2dbird%2dhas%2dlanded-name_page.html)….

What do u think?

[lindylou]

That would be brilliant.

I like that ! :) :)

[Max]

Looks nice but Scallies will climb on it.:mad:

[Wormella]

I can't remember where I read it - The Liverpool architecture walks book I think - but he was saying the actual construction of the birds is really shoddy - and only works because you don't see them.

I wonder if they'd tidy it up if they make a third- I also think it would destroy some of the magesty of them if you saw them up close!

[Max]

Whoever wrote that article can sure write articles!

[Kev]

As seen in my Avatar folks:

THE mythical Liver bird has been recreated in one of Liverpool's most famous exports - Meccano.

The image by Chris Vine is one of several works of art in the new Artworks Capital of Culture series.

It was unveiled last night in the atrium of the Royal Liver Building, home to Liverpool's two iconic 18ft Liver birds.

Guests who were invited to cast a beady eye over the mechanical bird included photographer and cultural ambassador for Wirral, Mike McCartney, and ECHO arts editor Joe Riley.

A spokeswoman for Artworks said: "We recently commissioned a number of talented local artists to produce aseries of stunning images for a new Capital of Culture series. http://a248.e.akamai.net/6/592/1130/0/oas-eu.247realmedia.com/0/default/empty.gif (http://ads.trinitymirror.co.uk/5c/icliverpool/news/regionalnews/1581007759/x60/default/empty.gif/63336263386461323434346337613830)

"The collection is inspired by Liverpool '08 and aims to support artists and the community in celebrating Liverpool's spectacular cultural renaissance."

The collection also includes art by Alex Corina, who created the Mona Lennon image.

Liverpool's Frank Hornby (http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?t=213&highlight=frank+hornby) took out apatent for Meccano in 1901, first calling it Mechanics Made Easy.

Over the 20th century it became the world's most famous toy based on engineering principles.

[GhostSearch]

You learn summit everyday:snf (41):

[A.D.W]

Bought 'The Little Book of Liver Birds' by David Cottell yesterday. It's a decent book and highly recommended at £9.99.

[Kev]

Bought 'The Little Book of Liver Birds' by David Cottell yesterday. It's a decent book and highly recommended at £9.99.

Brilliant :celb (23):

[ChrisGeorge]

Beautiful pictures.
Isn't the Liver Bird based on the Cormorant?

Hi Philip and Kev

Yes, great pics, Kev. Many thanks!!!

Yes the image of the Liver Bird is based on the physical appearance of the cormorant, although the story is that the idea for the mythical bird came from the eagle of St. John on the early city charters. Here is the explanation from Gerry Jones's site (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gerry.jones/lyver3hist.html), quoting an article by Reg Jones, "WHAT'S A LIVER BIRD?" OR, "AN ORNITHOLOGICAL ENIGMA.":

"The origin of the Liver Bird is as follows; King John, in 1207, requiring a port for the conquest of Ireland, granted letters patent to Liverpool, and the town adopted a corporate Seal, - the eagle of St. John, the emblem of the House of King John. During the siege of 1644, when cavalier forces sacked Liverpool , the seal was lost.

"In 1655 it was replaced by a second seal, but this did not resemble an eagle, possibly due to the ignorance or artistic shortcomings of the designer.. As time went by, the bird, which looked like a seagull, came to be regarded as a cormorant, as such birds are prevalent in the Mersey. In the birds beak is a sprig of foliage, probably of broom, the 'planta genista' of the Plantagenet royal family."

Chris

[Howie]

See also the pics at www.liverbirdology.com.

Here's one for Max: :)

http://www.liverbirdology.com/pix/boxer.jpg

[lindylou]

Thanks Howie, that's a good little site.

[wavydavy]

Hi everyone. I edit a magazine called Space in Liverpool (general lifestyle stuff, city’s renaissance, culture and heritage etc) and I’ve just written a book about the Liver Bird – mythical symbol of the city of Liverpool and everywhere to be seen if you really look. Three years in the making and a labour of love. Here's the link to the publisher's website if you'd like to find out more…
http://www.breedonbooks.co.uk/publications/1859835473.html
Best wishes
WavyDavy

[Kev]

Hi everyone. I edit a magazine called Space in Liverpool (general lifestyle stuff, city’s renaissance, culture and heritage etc) and I’ve just written a book about the Liver Bird – mythical symbol of the city of Liverpool and everywhere to be seen if you really look. Three years in the making and a labour of love. Here's the link to the publisher's website if you'd like to find out more…
http://www.breedonbooks.co.uk/publications/1859835473.html
Best wishes
WavyDavy

Hi wavy :PDT_Piratz_26: a warm welcome to the site. I've seen and read Space many times and love it. I'm sure the Liver Bird book is great!

Kev

[The Teardrop Explodes]

Hi everyone. I edit a magazine called Space in Liverpool (general lifestyle stuff, city’s renaissance, culture and heritage etc) and I’ve just written a book about the Liver Bird – mythical symbol of the city of Liverpool and everywhere to be seen if you really look. Three years in the making and a labour of love. Here's the link to the publisher's website if you'd like to find out more…
http://www.breedonbooks.co.uk/publications/1859835473.html
Best wishes
WavyDavy

You didn't used to work down Le Bateau did you as Wavy Davy Gravy?

[Kev]

I knew I recognised your real name Davy

[wavydavy]

Can't claim to be Wavy Davy Gravy I'm afraid. Used to work on a football mag called 90 Minutes. My Cockernee colleagues thought it highly amusing to call me Davy Liver.
Felt a bit cheeky plugging the book, so hope you don't mind. Over 100 places in the city-centre and suburbs where you'll see the little feathered chaps, on and inside buildings.
Also did a section on Liver Birds in London (old HQ of Martins Bank), Manchester (Free Trade Hall) and other places in UK. Would love to hear from anyone who's seen them in other surprising places, too. They get everywhere. I believe there might be one or two in New York, for example in the old Cunard building over there…

[Kev]

Yes, they are evrywhere. No problem about you plugging your book, it has a firm Liverpool focus which we are interested in. Are you still working for Space? Maybe you could give us a plus there.... :Colorz_Grey_PDT_16:

[A.D.W]

Hi everyone. I edit a magazine called Space in Liverpool (general lifestyle stuff, city’s renaissance, culture and heritage etc) and I’ve just written a book about the Liver Bird – mythical symbol of the city of Liverpool and everywhere to be seen if you really look. Three years in the making and a labour of love. Here's the link to the publisher's website if you'd like to find out more…
http://www.breedonbooks.co.uk/publications/1859835473.html
Best wishes
WavyDavy


I have bought this book and would recommend it. Splendid work.

:)

[Sloyne]

I believe there might be one or two in New York, for example in the old Cunard building over there…There is one (included in the Liverpool coat of arms) on a building on Wall Street. I do have a slide (somewhere) with this image but, it is at my northern address and would take Sherlock Holmes to find it. There is/was also a Liver Bird on a building on Washington Street in Boston, MA., not far from the Filenes department store building.

[wavydavy]

Will certainly plug the website in Space (next issue out Mon 18 Dec), and thanks for your kind comments, Cissie!
Interesting to read Sloyne’s comments about Liver Birds in USA. Here’s a few little extracts from my book…

In 1921, five years after the completion of its landmark Pier Head offices in Liverpool, Cunard opened a second HQ at 25 Broadway in New York – the first major edifice built in the city after the First World War and still one of Lower Manhattan’s most architecturally and historically significant structures. At 22 storeys it towers above its Pier Head cousin, but it shares the same rusticated base (Indiana limestone rather than Portland Stone) of arches crowned with carved keystones and boasts a cavernous Great Hall decorated with murals and reliefs of great maritime explorers, classical nautical scenes, Cunard’s shipping routes and the arms of Liverpool and other British ports…
Above the doorway to the Royal Insurance Company building in New York, opened in 1927 at the corner of William Street and Fulton Street in Lower Manhattan, a Liver Bird in relief still accompanies the monogram RIC above the doorway…

And some closer to home in London and Manchester…

At 68 Lombard Street in the City of London are four columns, their capitals featuring three front-facing Liver Birds with raised wings and curled sprigs of seaweed in their bills. A grasshopper sits upon a gable outside. The street was named after Italian bankers from Lombardy who settled here in the 13th Century, and these are the former London offices of Martins Bank, listed on this site as early as 1794 in Kent’s Directory. In 1918, Martins was acquired by the Bank of Liverpool but retained its name and boasted ‘over 560 offices and agents in all the principal towns at home and abroad’ with its HQ on Water Street. The grasshopper refers to the inn where Elizabethan banker Thomas Gresham traded…
Due west at Smithfield market (built 1868) is another Liver Bird, this time below a female statue of Liverpool – along with fellow personifications of London, Edinburgh and Dublin that together represent the major towns to which meat was despatched…
Martins were prolific and familiar exporters of the Liver Bird in the early 20th Century. The Liver Bird and grasshopper from the bank’s old Manchester office are still visible at 47 Spring Gardens (now occupied by fashion boutique Vivienne Westwood). Manchester has another carved Liver Bird on the façade of the former Free Trade Hall on Peter Street. It’s one of several emblems of Lancashire and Cheshire towns that campaigned against the Corn Laws in the 1840s, when the industrial classes overturned the price of grain set by the land-owning aristocracy to counter cheaper imports…

[wavydavy]

Thanks for mentioning my book, Cissie. Being a newcomer to this site, I started a thread on the Gen Discussion and didn’t realise there was a separate thread about Liver Birds.
I spent three years compiling the Little Book of Liver Birds, eventually recording and photographing over 100 sites in and around Liverpool where you’ll see them. They’re all there in the book, but I’d love to hear from people who’ve found more.
My personal faves are the ones along the top of Exchange Flags, front-facing with wings along, sculpted by the same guys (Thompson and Capstick) who carved the birds on the George’s Dock Building/tunnel ventilation shaft on the Pier Head (along with Liverpool master-sculptor Herbert Tyson Smith).
Originally posted the following on Gen Discussion forum. It’s from a section in the book about Liver Birds in London and Manchester, and also short extracts about LBs in the States…

At 68 Lombard Street in the City of London are four columns, their capitals featuring three front-facing Liver Birds with raised wings and curled sprigs of seaweed in their bills. A grasshopper sits upon a gable outside. The street was named after Italian bankers from Lombardy who settled here in the 13th Century, and these are the former London offices of Martins Bank, listed on this site as early as 1794 in Kent’s Directory. In 1918, Martins was acquired by the Bank of Liverpool but retained its name and boasted ‘over 560 offices and agents in all the principal towns at home and abroad’ with its HQ on Water Street. The grasshopper refers to the inn where Elizabethan banker Thomas Gresham traded…
Due west at Smithfield market (built 1868) is another Liver Bird, this time below a female statue of Liverpool – along with fellow personifications of London, Edinburgh and Dublin that together represent the major towns to which meat was despatched…
Martins were prolific and familiar exporters of the Liver Bird in the early 20th Century. The Liver Bird and grasshopper from the bank’s old Manchester office are still visible at 47 Spring Gardens (now occupied by fashion boutique Vivienne Westwood). Manchester has another carved Liver Bird on the façade of the former Free Trade Hall on Peter Street. It’s one of several emblems of Lancashire and Cheshire towns that campaigned against the Corn Laws in the 1840s, when the industrial classes overturned the price of grain set by the land-owning aristocracy to counter cheaper imports…

In 1921, five years after the completion of its landmark Pier Head offices in Liverpool, Cunard opened a second HQ at 25 Broadway in New York – the first major edifice built in the city after
the First World War and still one of Lower Manhattan’s most architecturally and historically significant structures. At 22 storeys it towers above its Pier Head cousin, but it shares the same rusticated base (Indiana limestone rather than Portland Stone) of arches crowned with carved keystones and boasts a cavernous Great Hall decorated with murals and reliefs of great maritime explorers, classical nautical scenes, Cunard’s shipping routes and the arms of Liverpool and other British ports…
Above the doorway to the Royal Insurance Company building in New York, opened in 1927 at the corner of William Street and Fulton Street in Lower Manhattan, a Liver Bird in relief still accompanies the monogram RIC above the doorway…

[Kev]

Will certainly plug the website in Space (next issue out Mon 18 Dec)…

Many thanks :PDT_Aliboronz_24:

[Gerry Jones]

I'm very pleased to see so much interest in the Liver Birds. I am the Gerry Jones whose site www.gerryjones.me.uk was referred to in one reply. I am trying to get Culture Company to build a Third Lyver Bird, full-size, at ground Level, where all the tourists can photo each other, as public art, for 2008, and for 2011 when the birds wil be 100 years old.

[Gerry Jones]

Chris George printed an explanation about this. Here is another version of the same explanation; except you can SING this one, to "In my Liverpool home"

In 1207 when John was the king,
We were ON the Town Seal when they signed anything
We started as Eagles - the bird of St John -
Till they found our original image had gone.

An artist who'd never seen an eagle before,
had seen many cormorants along our sea-shore,
He tried drawing eagles, he tried it for weeks,
But we ended up like cormorants with weed in our beaks.
CHORUS:
Liver Birds are the best. tra-la-la!
Liver Birds are the best.
Venice has pigeons , that's all that they've got.
London has sparrows, that cough quite a lot,
We've got the best that the others have not,
our Liver Birds are the best!"

All together, from the top, hit it! 1,2,3, ....

Gerry.
PS: for the full song, try www.gerryjones.me.uk then Liverpool Lyrics.

[Waterways]

I'm very pleased to see so much interest in the Liver Birds. I am the Gerry Jones whose site www.gerryjones.me.uk was referred to in one reply. I am trying to get Culture Company to build a Third Lyver Bird, full-size, at ground Level, where all the tourists can photo each other, as public art, for 2008, and for 2011 when the birds wil be 100 years old.

Great idea. I like it. One on plinth slightly above grade.

[ChrisGeorge]

I also agree that a ground level Liver Bird would be an impressive and memorable way to celebrate Liverpool's uniqueness. Great idea. Good luck with that proposal, Mr. Jones.

Chris George

[Sloyne]

I am the Gerry Jones. I am trying to get Culture Company to build a Third Lyver Bird, full-size, at ground Level, where all the tourists can photo each other, as public art, for 2008, and for 2011 when the birds wil be 100 years old.Hi Gerry, I actually suggested this same project way back for the International Flower Festival in 1984. The suggestion was made to Councilors Westbury and Hamilton and later to Pam Wilsher of the Mersey Partnership and Katie Muotsakis of Merseyside Tourism, sadly, to no avail. I fully support your efforts and wish you every success in this project. Good luck.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Gerry, I actually suggested this same project way back for the International Flower Festival in 1984. The suggestion was made to Councilors Westbury and Hamilton and later to Pam Wilsher of the Mersey Partnership and Katie Muotsakis of Merseyside Tourism, sadly, to no avail. I fully support your efforts and wish you every success in this project. Good luck.


Hi Sloyne and Gerry

I actually think the time is right to have the life size Liver Bird at ground level, with the conjunction of both the 800th anniversary of the city's first charter and the Capital of Culture year. Exactly the right time! Again, good luck in your effort, Gerry. If you wish for support letters from Sloyne and myself and others, I for one would be willing to write such a letter and I should think Sloyne would as well given his prior interest in this very project.

Chris

[Waterways]

Hi Sloyne and Gerry

I actually think the time is right to have the life size Liver Bird at ground level, with the conjunction of both the 800th anniversary of the city's first charter and the Capital of Culture year. Exactly the right time! Again, good luck in your effort, Gerry. If you wish for support letters from Sloyne and myself and others, I for one would be willing to write such a letter and I should think Sloyne would as well given his prior interest in this very project.

Chris

It should be away from the reaches of people, so it can't be defaced.

[Sloyne]

If you wish for support letters from Sloyne and myself and othersThanks Chris, I forgot to include that I would support Gerry's proposal with a follow up letter. Thanks again for mentioning it.

[ChrisGeorge]

It should be away from the reaches of people, so it can't be defaced.


A good point about the danger of defacement, Waterways. As I see it one option would be to have a ground level Liver Bird that would be a replica of those on the Liver Buildings. Another option might be to have an international competition for an artist to come up with a new interpretation of the Liver Bird. It should not be an abstract sculpture but something that would realistically re-envision the Liver Bird for the twenty-first century. :)

Chris

[Waterways]

A good point about the danger of defacement, Waterways. As I see it one option would be to have a ground level Liver Bird that would be a replica of those on the Liver Buildings. Another option might be to have an international competition for an artist to come up with a new interpretation of the Liver Bird. It should not be an abstract sculpture but something that would realistically re-envision the Liver Bird for the twenty-first century. :)

Chris

I see nothing wrong with the one we have got.

[Sloyne]

A good point about the danger of defacement.I don't recall the 'Yellow Submarine' being unduly defaced. The odd signature with a magic marker by the odd tourist or two. Perhaps the location of the 'Submarine' on Chavesse Park was a deterent to would be vandals.

[Kev]

I remember someone defacing it with some offensive remarks about scousers a few years ago.

As for a ground level Liverbird, we have plenty of monuments that are in good conditions dotted about our city. I would put it just above head hight like most of the others so you have to look up, 6-10 ft or so.

It must be accessible by all members of our community, not just goths

[A.D.W]

I don't recall the 'Yellow Submarine' being unduly defaced. The odd signature with a magic marker by the odd tourist or two. Perhaps the location of the 'Submarine' on Chavesse Park was a deterent to would be vandals.

http://www.liverpoolviews.co.uk/pierhead/sdock/yellsub1.jpg

http://www.liverpoolviews.co.uk/pierhead/sdock/yellsub.jpg

[Sloyne]

http://www.liverpoolviews.co.uk/pierhead/sdock/yellsub.jpgThanks Cissie, they must have cleaned it up whenever I visited Liverpool. I have taken a number of pictures of friends and relatives with the submarine as a backdrop and never really noticed excessive grafitti.

[ChrisGeorge]

Thanks Cissie, they must have cleaned it up whenever I visited Liverpool. I have taken a number of pictures of friends and relatives with the submarine as a backdrop and never really noticed excessive grafitti.

Hi Sloyne

I think the point is that what has happened before could happen again and probably will. As long, that is, that there are people in society who do not value community property or heritage. :disgust:

Chris

[Sloyne]

I think the point is that what has happened before could happen again and probably will. As long, that is, that there are people in society who do not value community property or heritage.Yes Chris, it is a world wide problem. I have seen graffiti on some of the worlds most famouse heritage sites, places like Giza, Chichen-itza, Corcovado, The Colosseum, The Acropolis and even in the Punch Bowl cemetary. Don't know what posseses people to deface their environment, but they do.

[ChrisGeorge]

Yes Chris, it is a world wide problem. I have seen graffiti on some of the worlds most famouse heritage sites, places like Giza, Chichen-itza, Corcovado, The Colosseum, The Acropolis and even in the Punch Bowl cemetary. Don't know what posseses people to deface their environment, but they do.


Hi Sloyne

Of course it's not a modern phenomenon even though it seems especially rife now. I remember seeing medieval effigies defaced by initials by people long ago after Thomas and Oliver Cromwell and his gangs had their go. And at Shakespeare's cottage a number of well known people had inscribed their names in the panes of the leadlight windows, presumably using their diamond rings.

Chris

[Sloyne]

And at Shakespeare's cottage a number of well known people had inscribed their names in the panes of the leadlight windows, presumably using their diamond rings.Would that be Anne Hathaways cottage? I have visited the cottage but never noticed the graffiti you mention. I will certainly look if I ever go back to Stratford-on-Avon. Were did you see the graffiti by Oliver Cromwell and was it Thomas Cromwell, Earl of Essex or Thomas Cranmer the Archbishop of Canterbury, you meant? Thanks for this very interesting piece information.

[ChrisGeorge]

Would that be Anne Hathaways cottage? I have visited the cottage but never noticed the graffiti you mention. I will certainly look if I ever go back to Stratford-on-Avon. Were did you see the graffiti by Oliver Cromwell and was it Thomas Cranmer you meant? Thanks for this very interesting piece information.

Hi Sloyne

It was definitely Shakespeare's birthplace because I remember looking out onto the street through the defaced window. . . as you probably know Anne Hathaway's Cottage is set somewhat off the road. And it was Thomas Cromwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Cromwell), who oversaw the Dissolution of the Monasteries under Henry VIII.

Chris

[lindylou]

I have bought this book and would recommend it. Splendid work.

:)

I am hoping to get this book for Christmas ... I've dropped a few hints :) :)

[Gerry Jones]

Thanks to all who have responded and commented on the Third Lyver Bird idea.
It is currently with the Public Art Steering Committee, who are said to be considering locations which

could do with some public work of art, and then allo the Bird to bid for one of these, against other

ideas which have money or sponsorship attached. So don't hold your breath.
I have made a CD-rom of the scheme, containing photos, mock-ups, transcripts, histories, notes

and diagrams, and managed to place copies with David Henshaw, Warren Bradley and a third of the

councillors, Jason Harborow, Prof Drummond Bone, Laurie Peake and many others. All those who

are likely to be in a position to do anything are well aware of the plan, and generally in favour - in

principle.
(If you would like a copy of this CDrom, do email me privately with a postal address.)
Please feel free to "talk it up", write to your councillor and MP, but best of all -find a serious sponsor.
In "original materials" we are talking near £250,000, but in kevlar or such about £40,000. Such an

item would not last 100 years, but if it gets built and lasts ten years or more, then there would be an

outcry of "we must keep The Bird", equivalent to the Keep Gormley's Men campaign.

Security? Well, I think it would have to take its chance along with other works of art, most of which

come through unscathed, and this one is surely going to prove more popular, and more readily taken

to Scouse hearts. One change I now think could be made, with security in mind, is to incorporate

part of the Dome on which the bird stands. This would be rather harder to scale, and would make the

whole item a few feet taller still, and even more impressive.

Keep coming with the ideas, everyone.
Gerry.

[Gerry Jones]

Here is a mockup, based on Kev's excellent picture above - hope you don't mind, Kev - showing the Bird on Dome for extra security ( and height - and cost!)

[wavydavy]

Gerry
Just a note to add my support to your campaign. Any other city would've done something like this by now, high time Liverpool did. The size, scale and sheer beauty of the birds should be appreciated at ground level.
Best wishes
WavyDavy

[Kev]

Here is a mockup, based on Kev's excellent picture above - hope you don't mind, Kev - showing the Bird on Dome for extra security ( and height - and cost!)

No problem Gerry, glad you used it :)

[scouserdave]

Another cracking thread that I've just come across. Belated thanks for all your contributions:PDT_Piratz_26:

[Gerry Jones]

Here is a mockup, based on Kev's excellent picture above - hope you don't mind, Kev - showing the Bird on Dome for extra security ( and height - and cost!)

Further to Waterways' worry about security; ("It should be away from the reaches of people, so it can't be defaced.")
Here are a couple more mockups, on site by the Royal Court, on a goodly mound of dome. With a bit of luck the "dome" should make them harder to climb, and would make the whole item even more impressive and "Wow!"

Happy New Year to all our readers,
Gerry

[Gerry Jones]

It should be away from the reaches of people, so it can't be defaced.

Here is a picture of the Ultimate method of keeping the Third Lyver Bird away from the reaches of people. Unfortunately, it would mean that nobody could stand and be photographed byt their mates alongside/under the Bird, which is what I would consider to be its main tourist attraction. If is were accessible, despite the danger, I am sure it would mean that Every Single Tourist wouod be photographed beside it - not just Most Of Them. Millions of photos,flying all over the world. Worth taking a change on some graffiti, I think.
(Artwork by (I think) Timbo Kelly of "Timbo's Liverpool").
Gerry.

[shank]

HI THERE CAN ANYONE TELL ME IF THE BIRDS GOT TAKIN DOWN DURING THE WAR AND IF THAY DID WHO TOOK THEM DOWN ARE THERE ANY PICTURES??

[Gerry Jones]

HI THERE CAN ANYONE TELL ME IF THE BIRDS GOT TAKIN DOWN DURING THE WAR AND IF THAY DID WHO TOOK THEM DOWN ARE THERE ANY PICTURES??

Yes, Shanks, the Birds were taken down. I've read it somewhere - sorry, haven't got the source to hand, but also I have spoken to a son of one of the gents involved in the work - again, sorry no details handy.
I do Not think it was during the war, but for some renovation.
Third time sorry - I have no pictures, and would dearly love to have some.

Do click on Liver Birds from my site www.gerryjones.me.uk and somewhere you'll find a picture of three gents from "Sparrowhall Scaffolders" up on the bird back in the 70s. Sadly the gent in the middle died a couple of years ago, but the other two are alive and well. .... and standing by to take part in the opening ceremony if the Culture Company ever get round to getting my Third Bird built.

[MissInformed]

great pic gerry!!

[shank]

thanks for the info on the liver birds visited your site fantastic site well worth a visit thanks.SHANK

[Kev]

Attached image saying the liverbird was imaginary:

[PhilipG]

Attached image saying the liverbird was imaginary:

Yes, it's imaginary.
Liver comes from the word 'laever' (Sp?) for seaweed, which is what all Liverbirds have in their beaks.

[Gerry Jones]

For more information about the Liver Birds, please visit my site www.gerryjones.me.uk and click on Third Lyver Bird.

For a SONG about the Liver Birds (tune; Liverpool Home) please click on "Liverpool Folk Songs" and choose "Song of the Liver Birds" in Contents list.
couple of sample verses;


"In 1207 when John was the king,
We were ON the Town Seal when they signed anything
We started as Eagles - the bird of St John -
Till they found our original image had gone.

An artist who'd never seen an eagle before,
had seen many cormorants along our sea-shore,
He tried drawing eagles, he tried it for weeks,
But we ended up like cormorants with weed in our beaks.

"We've both got some Laver; that's "sea-weed" to you.
It's quite rich in iodine, but a bit tough to chew.
But over in Clwyd, they bake it instead,
As a vital ingredient of Welsh "Laver bread."

STILL no joy with my Third Lyver Bird scheme; I am now pinning all my hopes on Phil Redmond and the Birds' Centenary in 2011.

[naked lilac]

Great Site you have there.. thanks for sharing the great images.. That would be smashing to see one in the water of Albert Docks like you show.. :handclap:

[Barry]

I can't remember where I read it - The Liverpool architecture walks book I think - but he was saying the actual construction of the birds is really shoddy - and only works because you don't see them.

I wonder if they'd tidy it up if they make a third- I also think it would destroy some of the magesty of them if you saw them up close!

I was on a job the other week up there and got a close up of the back of a Bird.

http://a663.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/48/l_ac26f21076069fed609b67e2d94996be.jpg

Not quite what you might expect...

B

[Merseyrose]

It would be GREAT to have a third Liverbird on ground level to be viewed close up. What a GREAT idea!

What has become of your campaign? Will this go through?

Btw, graffiti date back even farther than Cromwell's days. The ones found in Pompeji are an important Vulgar Latin source for Romance linguists! :)

[Kev]

A WEBSITE commemorating the 100th birthday of Liverpool?s most famous building has been set up for Capital of Culture year. Read (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2008/09/27/website-to-mark-liver-building-s-100-years-100252-21910636/)

[Klaatu]

Sounds great Kev...Will there be any chance of people going up to the top?

[quincyg]

I've contacted the Echo about this as the site address they gave doesn't work.

Hopefully they'll amend it soon, as I'm really looking forward to seeing this site :PDT_Piratz_26:

[Gerry Jones]

A WEBSITE commemorating the 100th birthday of Liverpool?s most famous building has been set up for Capital of Culture year. Read (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2008/09/27/website-to-mark-liver-building-s-100-years-100252-21910636/)

Replying to a few recent postings;
I can't see any website either, just a reference to an Echo article. There certainly should be one, should now be gearing itself up to what should be its next major year, 2011, Year of the Liver Birds. They will be 100 years old, and this is a great reason for celebrating our one, true, unique icon.
The year itself should be designated The Year of the Liver Birds.
There should be a flock of them all round the place, on the scale of the Lambananas, same sort of size, same number, same system, same variety and plan.
And of course the Third Liver Bird should really come into its own.

I don't know if it is still possible to get to the top of the Liver Building, but they certainly used to do Building Tours there, up in the express lift to the Promenade Deck level, to see the bells - well, the electronic chime bars, no bigger than the things you used to bong in school - but you still could not get close to the birds. When you got close to their perch, all you could see was part of a tail hanging over a bit.
Even Barry, who was up there (great image!) could only see the Back of the Other Bird, which is why we need it at ground level. It would be tidier, because the size is the thing for that awesome feeling. It could be made of kevlar or such without nuts and bolts and rust.

My plan to have a Third Bird in place for 2008 was scuppered by Lewis Biggs of the Biennial Arts, and adviser to the City on all things artistic. My plan was passed to him by The Woollyback, and he then sat on it for a couple of years, and finally declared that The Liver Birds were "old" art, and that the City has got more than ebough Liver Birds as it is.

I am close to getting the Liverpool Tarts to be thoroughly well known, so then I hope to have the time and energy to have another go at my Third Bird, aiming for 2011.

[Gerry Jones]

A WEBSITE commemorating the 100th birthday of Liverpool?s most famous building has been set up for Capital of Culture year. Read (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2008/09/27/website-to-mark-liver-building-s-100-years-100252-21910636/)

This site still exists in May 2009, but links to it are broken in some directions. If you go to the Royal Liver own home page and follow the HISTORY link, it should bring up http://history.royalliverassurance.com/
Not much that I could find about the Birds there.

[Gerry Jones]

[QUOTE=Merseyrose;147136]It would be GREAT to have a third Liverbird on ground level to be viewed close up. What a GREAT idea!

What has become of your campaign? Will this go through?

QUOTE]

Cross your fingers, MerseyRose; there are serious plans afoot in the new museum of Liverpool, to have a full-size representation of the Bird in the museum, just behind the big north window. This may be one wing & leg modelled in 3D, with the other wing painted on the nearby wall, but full-size is their definite aim. This would not be public art as such, nor a tourist attraction in its own right, but as a museum exhibit it may be as close as I am ever to get with my dream.