Mass Grave in Old Swan

[Ged]

Does anyone remember that when they were demolishing the opposite side of St. Oswalds street, they came across a mass grave site. My mate lived in Elm's House Road so I was forever getting the number 10 in Norton Street. I was born in Holly Street, the flats similar to Eldon Grove and later moved to Gerard Gardens when Holly Street had to make way for the new St. Anne Street Police station. I loved that community and era - no playstations or X boxes, no interacting via a joystick, screen or keyboard - proper face to face games. Does anyone have any photos of Rose Hill Police station which preceded St. Anne Street station?

[snappel]

I'd heard about the graves from a Tom Slemen story, but I've no idea. There's an interview with him where he mentions it...

"There were 3,561 bodies buried according to age group in a huge square, in coffins of an unknown type of wood that would not burn."

They were found in October 1973 while clearing space for a Roman Catholic primary school. No maps or parish records show this graveyard.

"The mystery deepens as the Home Office soon cordoned off the site, and the bodies were taken to be cremated and buried at a cemetery in Anfield."

Archaeologists from London were furious, but the Home Office refused to comment until the 1990s and then admitted the entire files were lost.

Source (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/entertainment/previewsandreviews/tm_headline=world-of-the-strange%26method=full%26objectid=16152192%26page=1 %26siteid=50061-name_page.html)

[Ged]

All sounds a bit dodgy if true doesn't it. A Tom Slemen story recently appeared in the Bootle Times about a reptile monster type creature that's supposed to have popped in and out of the rubbish chutes in Gerard Gardens much to the horror of the local residents and was well known. Weill I lived there from 1968 to 78 and heard nothing about it. Now i'm not saying any of his stories are 'made up' but 11 books of ghostly happenings? I've heard that someone will come up to him at his book launches and say have you heard this one Tom, whether they then appear in his next book and how much verification can actually be made is open to question but if nothing else the paying public seem to like them enough.

[PhilipG]

There is some truth about the mass grave in Old Swan.
I first read about it years ago (well before Tom Slemen's books).
Can't remember the details, but they were thought to be the casualties of some mass sickness in the city centre, and they were all buried together outside the Town.

It sounds like more details have been added to the story to make it more "interesting".

[snappel]

That's a more likely explanation than a mass-genocide by members of the occult. Or whatever.

Would be interesting to find out more about it...

[Ged]

I wonder if they may have been plague victims like those buried in Addison Street which was formerly called Sickmans lane because of it?

[PhilipG]

That's a more likely explanation than a mass-genocide by members of the occult. Or whatever.

Would be interesting to find out more about it...

I've found the source.
It was Derek Whale's "Lost Villages of Liverpool" Part 1 (1984).

The graves were first discovered in April 1973, so a trawl through the newspapers at the Record Office might reveal contemporary accounts.

[Waterways]

That's a more likely explanation than a mass-genocide by members of the occult. Or whatever.

Would be interesting to find out more about it...

Plague victims usually were buried without coffins. Most, if not all, were in coffins. Plague and cholora tended to take many victims.

[ChrisGeorge]

There is some truth about the mass grave in Old Swan.
I first read about it years ago (well before Tom Slemen's books).
Can't remember the details, but they were thought to be the casualties of some mass sickness in the city centre, and they were all buried together outside the Town.

It sounds like more details have been added to the story to make it more "interesting".

Hi all

There appears to be a strong school of thought that the bodies may have been those of Irish famine victims. I remember Waterways was asking recently where Irish famine victims were buried. The following is from
Manchester Irish.com (http://www.manchesterirish.com/news/current/2006_04_01_archive.html) in April of this year:

FAMINE IRISH: MASS MURDER IN LIVERPOOL

A fascinating piece by Peter Berresford Ellis recently appeared in the Irish Post. In 1973 a mass grave was found in Old Swan in Liverpool. In total the remains of 3,561 bodies were found. Journalists were kept away from the site and the Home Office ordered the immediate cremation of the bodies.

Merseyside criminologist Keith Andrews has investigated the case and believes this is a case of mass murder,

"...'Containment Squads' moved in on the diseased and starving immigrants, removed their children, then herded the Irish men and women to a containment camp in a field on the outskirts of Liverpool. They were then systematically shot and buried in unmarked coffins".

Berresford Ellis states:

"If Andrews can prove his contention, we are talking about one of the greatest murders of Irish men and women since Cromwellian times".

[PhilipG]

As if!

Really.
Some people.

Etc., etc.

Presumably the Irish Famine victims died in Ireland and were buried there.
Yes, I know the Famine caused many to emigrate, but I don't think they emigrated to die wholesale at their destinations.

[Waterways]

As if!

Really.
Some people.

Etc., etc.

Presumably the Irish Famine victims died in Ireland and were buried there.
Yes, I know the Famine caused many to emigrate, but I don't think they emigrated to die wholesale at their destinations.

Most who died in Liverpool died of Typus, etc. The overcrowded unsanitary conditions caused disease. The vast number of Irish strained the water services. Most Irish left Liverpool for Manchester, London, America, etc.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Waterways and Philip G.

I am just reporting what was on ManchesterIrish.com and don't know one way or the other what caused the deaths of those 3,561 people buried in Old Swan. They could have been Plague victims from centuries ago. On the other hand, they might have been Irish who died of typhus. That they might have been Irish put in some sort of internment camp and shot is obviously a serious charge and forensic examination of the remains should have been able to determine how old the remains were and whether there were gunshot wounds. Although the claim seems to be that the remains were cremated and reburied without such an investigation which seems odd, if not suspicious. I know that Merseyside criminologist Keith Andrews has worked with Tom Slemen on the matter of Ripper suspect Claude Regnier Conder so possibly they are working together on this mystery as well. There is information on Tom Slemen's forum on the Old Swan mass grave (http://www.slemen.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=35&sid=e39a44659d8623140a427d91239e1299) and Mr Slemen does say in reply to a query from a forum member, "yes it is possible that they [the Irish] were herded from the ship to the site of the alleged mass murder."

Chris

[Waterways]

Hi Waterways and Philip G.

I am just reporting what was on ManchesterIrish.com and don't know one way or the other what caused the deaths of those 3,561 people buried in Old Swan. They could have been Plague victims from centuries ago. On the other hand, they might have been Irish who died of typhus. That they might have been Irish put in some sort of internment camp and shot is obviously a serious charge and forensic examination of the remains should have been able to determine how old the remains were and whether there were gunshot wounds. Although the claim seems to be that the remains were cremated and reburied without such an investigation which seems odd, if not suspicious. I know that Merseyside criminologist Keith Andrews has worked with Tom Slemen on the matter of Ripper suspect Claude Regnier Conder so possibly they are working together on this mystery as well. There is information on Tom Slemen's forum on the Old Swan mass grave (http://www.slemen.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=35&sid=e39a44659d8623140a427d91239e1299) and Mr Slemen does say in reply to a query from a forum member, "yes it is possible that they [the Irish] were herded from the ship to the site of the alleged mass murder."


Possible, however highly unlikely. There was not any proper investigation. It took at time to clear the bodies, and would guess they would have pinned down the date of the deaths in that time.

If they were shot because they wanted to get rid of the Irish (Irish were not forigners then) would they put them in coffins and laid them out in order of age? I doubt it.

In the past there were so many epidemics in Liverpool of cholora, the plague, etc. So much so the city went on a hygine project and led the world in public health, with many cities around the world copying - Liverpool had the first wash houses, etc. This formed much of the public health systems of today.

[Waterways]

Local Mysteries with Tom Slemen, Maghull & Aintree Stra

LAST week I related how 3,561 bodies were found in a mass grave by council workmen who were digging up scrubland to lay the foundations of a school off St Oswald's Street in Old Swan.

To deepen the mystery, the Home Office told Liverpool City Council to cordon off the mass grave with 10-foot-high security fences and to cremate all of the corpses.

In 1995, several historians contacted Whitehall, hoping to discover why the Home Office had given orders to cremate the unknown dead of Old Swan, and a spokesman said he couldn't trace any records of the incident.

The puzzle then, of how 3,561 bodies came to be buried off St Oswald ' s Street, remains unsolved.

Victims of plague and cholera were dumped in pits often filled with quicklime, but the thousands of bodies found at Old Swan were not only placed in coffins, they had been buried in groups according to their age, which suggests all of the internments took place simultaneously.

So, were over 3,000 people massacred at Old Swan in the 1840s or a decade before?

If there had been some uprising, and the authorities had dealt with the revolt by massacring the dissenters, would they have afterwards buried the victims in coffins?

Thousands of poor people were disembowelled and hanged by the authorities in England during the Peasant's Revolt of 1382, but news of a massacre could not be contained, and would soon have spread across the country.

The only clue that seems to provide a solution to this mystery lies in several curious reports from council workmen who claimed that a few of the coffins did indeed bear name-plates.

If these reports are true, then this could point to an intriguing possibility never considered before; that the coffins were moved from another graveyard and reburied at Old Swan.

In 1838, the foundation stone to St George's Hall was laid and the site excavated for the hall's foundations lay adjacent to St John's Church.

For work to proceed, many of the 27,000 coffins in St John's Churchyard had to be removed to make space.

The army of builders and civil engineers working on the St George's Hall project also suggested the unsightly St John's Church itself should be demolished. Now there was the problem of the church graveyard to contend with, and herein lies the clue to the origin of the mass grave.

http://icseftonandwestlancs.icnetwork.co.uk/icmaghull/localmysteries/tm_headline=mystery-deepens&method=full&objectid=15179185&siteid=60252-name_page.html

[ChrisGeorge]

First note that the Tom Slemen article posted above is not from today but I believe appeared before the following which appears to put paid to the speculation that the bodies could be executed Irish people.

'I gave order to burn bodies'

Mar 2 2006

Maghull & Aintree Star


AS WITNESSED by the huge amount of correspondence received at Merseymart & Star , Tom Slemen's article on the Mass Grave discovered in Old Swan in 1973 drew reaction from many readers.

One letter that took issue with criminologist Keith Andrews's claims of a systematic massacre of Irish immigrants at the site in around 1848 was written by Liverpool's former principal environmental health officer, Ken Williams, who was in charge of the 1973 exhumation.

Printed here, it relates to this specific event - not the broader issues regarding the military and the treatment of the Irish.

Speaking to Merseymart & Star , he said: "I held my position from 1949 to 1989 and the first thing to note is that if you wanted to build or extend on sacred ground you had to consult the Home Office, which would in turn speak to the town clerk, who would then instruct me.

"The reason there were hoardings was that the Home Office's principal instruction is total decorum, and in this case there were houses on Montague Road overlooking the site.

"One comment was that these people had been shot and the Home Office were covering it up.

"The order to burn the bodies came from me and me alone - there were so many that after getting permission to put more than one in a single coffin, and re-inter them in Anfield I had to request permission for cremations.

"There were no bullet holes in the skulls, and there were already gravestones at the site - it was a marked grave..

"This discovery was simply beyond the boundary of that graveyard, extending much further than was realised - thousands more bodies.

"Contrary to one comment in the article, there were indeed coffins containing children discovered.

"There is also the obvious point that if this was the massacre of three-and-a-half-thousand people - why were they all in coffins with plaques and buried in such an ordered fashion?

"This was not people who had been thrown in a trench.

"Also, the date quoted for this 'massacre' was 1848, but some of the coffins had plaques with 1859 on them."

Key role in the mass exhumation

I HAVE followed with great interest the recent articles in your paper with regard to the mass grave unearthed in St Oswald Street, Old Swan.

The principal officer delegated to be in charge of the entire operation was me.

When the original gravestones had been removed and the bodies re-interred the excavation continued beyond this boundary and it was at this stage other coffins were found. Some plaques on the coffin lids had dates of 1859, however this should not be considered to be a mass grave at any one time.

I do not recall seeing bullet marks in the skulls and the authorisation to cremate the bodies was implemented by the Home Office as the result of my request - that it should be done in the interest of public health. I know all this to be true - 'cause I was there!

K. A. WILLIAMS, Gateacre, Liverpool. (Former principal environmental health officer for Liverpool 1949-1989)

Source (http://icseftonandwestlancs.icnetwork.co.uk/icmaghull/news/tm_method=full%26objectid=16765848%26siteid=60252-name_page.html)

[PhilipG]

The graves wouldn't have come from St John's Church during the digging of the foundations for St George's Hall.
St George's Hall was built on the site of the original Infirmary.
St John's Church was much further back as this map of 1836 shows.
The graveyard of St John's became St John's Gardens.

It's also unlikely that they were graves moved from other churches.
Municipal Cemeteries were created simply because graveyards in churches became full and were then closed for further burials.

[Fergie]

Does anyone remember that when they were demolishing the opposite side of St. Oswalds street, they came across a mass grave site. My mate lived in Elm's House Road so I was forever getting the number 10 in Norton Street. I was born in Holly Street, the flats similar to Eldon Grove and later moved to Gerard Gardens when Holly Street had to make way for the new St. Anne Street Police station. I loved that community and era - no playstations or X boxes, no interacting via a joystick, screen or keyboard - proper face to face games. Does anyone have any photos of Rose Hill Police station which preceded St. Anne Street station?

Try the scottie press online go to the archives and click on to St Joesephs also try the Liverpool EX Pats on the Liverpool Echo a member called Rookie was a ex Policeman at Rose Hill Police Station in the 50s and 60s.
Peter

[Ged]

Yes, I am a regular contributor to the scottie press. Regarding lots of Irish people dying here after making it from the famine. It is known that over 2,300 are buried in the grounds and crypt of St. Anthony's on Scotland Road so that did actually happen.

[scouserdave]

Hiya Ged,
are you the Gerrard Garden lad who took all the Liverpool pics in the 70s/80s? Top man:PDT_Piratz_26: I've got one of your DVDs. Say hi to Scottie Press' Ron Formby for me. We usually meet up at the Friends of Liverpool Monuments meetings, but I haven't seen him for a while.

[christy]

Most who died in Liverpool died of Typus, etc. The overcrowded unsanitary conditions caused disease. The vast number of Irish strained the water services. Most Irish left Liverpool for Manchester, London, America, etc.

True about typhus, dysentry, cholera etc but where did you get the info about most leaving for Manchester and London?

[Waterways]

"This discovery was simply beyond the boundary of that graveyard, extending much further than was realised - thousands more bodies."

OK they were clearing a graveyard and found 3,500 coffins that extended further than the graveyard. No foul play is suspected.

Questions:

1. Why were 3.5K coffins stacked 15 high (if Sleman is right of course, and
he does delve into fantacy)?

2. This is a mass buried all at once. Why?

Could have been relocation of bodies from other graveyards. St.Georges' Hall and St.John's Church. The graveyard of the church is now the gardens of the hall and the graveyard was cleared. Where did the bodies go?

[snappel]

I'm sure I read somewhere that they were moved somewhere else. Can't remember now...

[Waterways]

True about typhus, dysentry, cholera etc but where did you get the info about most leaving for Manchester and London?

In 1850 more people born in Ireland were living in Manchester and London than Liverpool. One of the Liverpool history sites.

1.3 million Irish went through Clarence Dock gates. The vast majority of them left Liverpool sharpish. Liverpool, which "officially" was a town at the time could not support them. So, they had to go elsewhere.

[Waterways]

I'm sure I read somewhere that they were moved somewhere else. Can't remember now...

What? Where?

[Ged]

Hello ScouseDave. Aye, it is I. Your Liverpool pictorial site is tops. Did you manage to attend one of the 'Gardens of Stone' screenings at FACT. It was a full day event with 3 consequetive screenings and over 100 people were sadly turned away at the desk or by phone so there was another one a few months later which some of the Liverpool pop groups (whose music is featured) attended - The Farm, The Christians, Wah etc...

There will be other screenings scheduled and we'll let this forum know.

[theninesisters]

I'm quite sure that I read (possibly Slemen) that the graves were transfared from St John's Church to the site in Old Swan.

St John's was behind St George's Hall and would have been the correct location for the buriel's to be removed.

You would need to look in to the erection of St George's Hall from early pictures and see whether there were any 'extra buildings' covering the graveyard so they were removed.

[PhilipG]

I'm quite sure that I read (possibly Slemen) that the graves were transfared from St John's Church to the site in Old Swan.

St John's was behind St George's Hall and would have been the correct location for the buriel's to be removed.

You would need to look in to the erection of St George's Hall from early pictures and see whether there were any 'extra buildings' covering the graveyard so they were removed.


See my last post (with the map).
St John's Graveyard was on the other side of St John's Church from where St George's Hall was built.
St John's Church closed in 1898.
The graveyard was converted into St John's Gardens, which opened in 1904, and I believe that the graves are still there.

The foundation stone of St George's Hall was laid in 1838, and the building was completed in 1854.
Some of the coffins in Old Swan were dated 1859, so there is no way they came from the site of St George's Hall.

I must admit I haven't read many of Slemen's books, but he doesn't seem to know his history.

I still think Old Swan was a burial ground for plague victims.

[theninesisters]

How do you know the coffins were dated? (can you provide a source?)

This is what Slemen says:

The demolition men were ordered to leave the site immediately and a cordon of secrecy was thrown around the area. However, the press learned of the unearthed coffin and reporters were amazed to discover that an phenomenal 3,561 coffins were buried beneath that street in Old Swan. The coffins were all unmarked and stacked sixteen feet deep. This site had never been a graveyard, and no one could determine just why thousands of people had been buried there. Stranger still, all the bodies were neatly grouped according to their ages, which ranged from children of ten or 12 to adults in their twenties and thirties. All the older skeletons had intact sets of teeth, which indicates that they were fairly young when they died. But just how the people in the mass grave had died was never established, but there were grisly rumours that their hearts had been removed. These peculiar claims were backed up by several people who had viewed the skeletons and noted that their breastbones had been smashed or removed, perhaps to retrieve the hearts of the corpses.

Archaeologists in London read of the astounding mass grave in Liverpool and immediately journeyed to the city to investigate, but for some mysterious reason, Liverpool City Council had the three thousand corpses cremated. When the archaeologists from London arrived in Liverpool, they were horrified to learn that the thousands of corpses had been exhumed and cremated. The ashes were then reburied in a special container. The authorities did all of this under a cloak of secrecy.

The angry and disappointed archaeologists branded the council as philistines and examined the site of the mass-burial pit. The site was definitely not a plague pit from the 15th century, and despite a thorough search of local historical records, the identities of the bodies could not be found. One investigator from the British Museum thought the mass burial had taken place in the early 1700s but couldn't be certain.

The strange hooded monk in black was seen again throughout the years, and continues to be seen in the vicinity of Broad Green Lane to this day. A group of mediums in the mid 1990s who investigated the bizarre case said they definitely felt the strong presence of an evil discarnate being in the neighbourhood where the mass grave was unearthed. One of the mediums said he felt as if multiple sacrifices to Satan had been carried out by Devil-worshipping monks in the locality of Old Swan centuries ago. He also hinted that there were three other sites of mass graves in Liverpool, and that the locations of these sites would form a huge cross facing the west. Traditional Christian churches face the east, where the sun rises, but the west has always been revered by followers of Satan.

It has since come to light that there are more mass graves in Liverpool, and yes, they do form a somewhat crude cross that faces the west. One of these graves was uncovered in the 1960s in Cobden Street in the Everton district. The Everton grave contained only three hundred bodies, but they too were grouped according to their age, and no one can determine when or why they were buried there. The other two mass graves are still being investigated and their locations are being kept secret.

[scouserdave]

Hello ScouseDave. Aye, it is I. Your Liverpool pictorial site is tops. Did you manage to attend one of the 'Gardens of Stone' screenings at FACT. It was a full day event with 3 consequetive screenings and over 100 people were sadly turned away at the desk or by phone so there was another one a few months later which some of the Liverpool pop groups (whose music is featured) attended - The Farm, The Christians, Wah etc...

There will be other screenings scheduled and we'll let this forum know.
Alright Ged, no never got the chance to get to the screenings which was a pity. BTW, just playing your Gerard Gardens Holy Cross DVD again. You've got a cracking eye for a Liverpool pic mate:PDT_Piratz_26:
Love the soundtrack too.

[Gnomie]

I wonder if they may have been plague victims like those buried in Addison Street which was formerly called Sickmans lane because of it?


Not sure on this Ged but im sure i read somewhere that Sickmans lane was where the Death Sheds where located?

By the way its good to see you here Ged(its Tony Andalucia):celb (23):

[PhilipG]

Quote:
"How do you know the coffins were dated? (can you provide a source?)"



First note that the Tom Slemen article posted above is not from today but I believe appeared before the following which appears to put paid to the speculation that the bodies could be executed Irish people.

'I gave order to burn bodies'

Mar 2 2006

Maghull & Aintree Star


AS WITNESSED by the huge amount of correspondence received at Merseymart & Star , Tom Slemen's article on the Mass Grave discovered in Old Swan in 1973 drew reaction from many readers.

One letter that took issue with criminologist Keith Andrews's claims of a systematic massacre of Irish immigrants at the site in around 1848 was written by Liverpool's former principal environmental health officer, Ken Williams, who was in charge of the 1973 exhumation.

Printed here, it relates to this specific event - not the broader issues regarding the military and the treatment of the Irish.

Speaking to Merseymart & Star , he said: "I held my position from 1949 to 1989 and the first thing to note is that if you wanted to build or extend on sacred ground you had to consult the Home Office, which would in turn speak to the town clerk, who would then instruct me.

"The reason there were hoardings was that the Home Office's principal instruction is total decorum, and in this case there were houses on Montague Road overlooking the site.

"One comment was that these people had been shot and the Home Office were covering it up.

"The order to burn the bodies came from me and me alone - there were so many that after getting permission to put more than one in a single coffin, and re-inter them in Anfield I had to request permission for cremations.

"There were no bullet holes in the skulls, and there were already gravestones at the site - it was a marked grave..

"This discovery was simply beyond the boundary of that graveyard, extending much further than was realised - thousands more bodies.

"Contrary to one comment in the article, there were indeed coffins containing children discovered.

"There is also the obvious point that if this was the massacre of three-and-a-half-thousand people - why were they all in coffins with plaques and buried in such an ordered fashion?

"This was not people who had been thrown in a trench.

"Also, the date quoted for this 'massacre' was 1848, but some of the coffins had plaques with 1859 on them."Key role in the mass exhumation

I HAVE followed with great interest the recent articles in your paper with regard to the mass grave unearthed in St Oswald Street, Old Swan.

The principal officer delegated to be in charge of the entire operation was me.

When the original gravestones had been removed and the bodies re-interred the excavation continued beyond this boundary and it was at this stage other coffins were found. Some plaques on the coffin lids had dates of 1859, however this should not be considered to be a mass grave at any one time.

I do not recall seeing bullet marks in the skulls and the authorisation to cremate the bodies was implemented by the Home Office as the result of my request - that it should be done in the interest of public health. I know all this to be true - 'cause I was there!

K. A. WILLIAMS, Gateacre, Liverpool. (Former principal environmental health officer for Liverpool 1949-1989)

Source (http://icseftonandwestlancs.icnetwork.co.uk/icmaghull/news/tm_method=full%26objectid=16765848%26siteid=60252-name_page.html)


Surprised anybody missed this.
It's part of this thread.

The more relevant question is: "What is Tom Slemen's source?"

Strange hooded monks?
Hearts taken from corpses?
Satanists?

How can we take him seriously?

[snappel]

Keith Andrews' story said there were no children there, but there were. Plus if it was a 'cold blooded massacre' they would have just thrown the bodies in a pit or trench and in-filled it They wouldn't have put them into individual coffins that would have cost money and put plaques on them.

I think the Andrews' guy wants to believe it's something more sinister, and has twisted the facts to suit. I'd rather listen to the guy who was involved in the clean-up, and his facts suggest the people died of disease.

[lindylou]

Just shows you never know what is underfoot. :shock:
It's astonishing to think that people in Old Swan were living on top of corpses!!

Not a nice thought.


I heard that Anfield cemetery is now full up. Eventually we will run out of space for burials .
I believe that cremation is better.

This is a morbid topic isn't it.:neutral:

[Waterways]

How do you know the coffins were dated? (can you provide a source?)

This is what Slemen says:


Read what the health officer says further down the thread.

[Gnomie]

Just shows you never know what is underfoot. :shock:
It's astonishing to think that people in Old Swan were living on top of corpses!!



Shurrup Lindy i live there :shock:


:Colorz_Grey_PDT_16:

[Ged]

And hello to you too Tony - yet another blue :celb (6):

[marky]

I took this pic of St. Johns' Gardens a few weeks back. This artwork contained 3 cylinders, through which you could view the soil beneath the pathway and look into the 'graves'. I don't know if the positioning of the structure is significant. I vaguely remember some sort of ceremony to the French dead being carried out here...a French official saluting the dead. I always thought the French burials, at least, still remain...I don't know where I heard that though.
Flickr member TorlPorl has some better pics of the artwork (shows the earth at the bottom of the cylinders):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/torlporl/sets/72157594298952188/
Here's a link to the artwork which mentions the graveyard:
http://www.biennial.com/corporate/archive/2006/content/Programme/ArtistDirectory/article_35_18.html

[stan]

I don't know why the exhumation is quoted as happening in 1973.I used to go to Broadgreen school and used to pass this site when it was wasteground and remember playing on there on many occasions.I remember the 20 foot high fences going up and actually remember seeing the workers in white suits and respirators on the site.By the way,I was born in 1973.

[PhilipG]

I don't know why the exhumation is quoted as happening in 1973.I used to go to Broadgreen school and used to pass this site when it was wasteground and remember playing on there on many occasions.I remember the 20 foot high fences going up and actually remember seeing the workers in white suits and respirators on the site.By the way,I was born in 1973.

The graves were discovered in April 1973.
Nobody's questioning that.
Read through this thread.

[stan]

The graves were discovered when they started digging the foundations for the new school on that site.I remember it all vividly.It wasn't 1973.

[PhilipG]

The graves were discovered when they started digging the foundations for the new school on that site.I remember it all vividly.It wasn't 1973.

3 different sources say it was 1973.
See posts 7, 9 & 13 in this thread.
If the school is still standing, they should know when it was built.

But that isn't really the point behind this thread.
The mystery is where did all the graves/corpses come from?
Personally, I thnk they were victims of some sort of plague.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Philip and Stan

Ken Williams, the retired principal environmental health office who was in charge of disposing of the bodies, states that it was 1973 that the remains were first discovered, so there is no doubt about the year. See

http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showpost.php?p=28905&postcount=15

Chris

[Gnomie]

I doubt we will ever know.

It could be Plague victims

Or Irish holocaust victims

maybe the french prisoners bodies where cleared from st johns

whatever the answer they acted suspicious when they dug them all up.

[ChrisGeorge]

I doubt we will ever know.

It could be Plague victims

Or Irish holocaust victims

maybe the french prisoners bodies where cleared from st johns

whatever the answer they acted suspicious when they dug them all up.

Hi Gnomie

A mystery certainly. But a lot less suspicious if you check what Mr Ken Williams the former environmental health office had to say -- see link I just posted above.

Chris

[Max]

An enjoyable read this thread.:PDT_Aliboronz_24:

[bobbymac]

Down Lockerby Rd. off Kenny, there used to be a monastery and a Nunnery (?) on opposite sides of the road that ran along the bottom. Sometime pre war a tunnel was found connecting the two and a great many babies bodies were discovered. I don't think that a there was a great commotion made of this at the time.

[ChrisGeorge]

Down Lockerby Rd. off Kenny, there used to be a monastery and a Nunnery (?) on opposite sides of the road that ran along the bottom. Sometime pre war a tunnel was found connecting the two and a great many babies bodies were discovered. I don't think that a there was a great commotion made of this at the time.

Hmmmm. I don't know but could that be similar to the scandal that surfaced in the Republic of Ireland about the unwed mothers sent to convent laundries that was portrayed in the movie Magdalen Sisters (http://tethys.croydon.ac.uk/magdalenecircle.nsf/pages/MagdaleneSisters)? With Liverpool's large Catholic population possibly something secretive was done about babies born to unmarried girls, to dispose of their bodies? Interesting.

Chris

[lindylou]

Down Lockerby Rd. off Kenny, there used to be a monastery and a Nunnery (?) on opposite sides of the road that ran along the bottom. Sometime pre war a tunnel was found connecting the two and a great many babies bodies were discovered. I don't think that a there was a great commotion made of this at the time.

my grandmother told me that exact story :eek:

There must have been some truth in it then ??? :ninja:


.. and she told me something similar about the Notre Dame - and 'goings on !!'

:ninja:

[Sloyne]

All of these urban "myths" are exactly that, MYTHS and were based on Liverpool's past, very sectarian, culture. I have heard the same story about the convent that once stood on Copperas Hill and St. Nick's also Notre Dame convent on Mount Pleasant. The latest one I heard about was in the early sixties when the sisters of the Franciscan Missionaries of Mary occupied St. Augustine's at the corner of Great Howard Street and Chisinale Street. Rumour had it that it was an abortion facility for rich Irish and English catholic girls, and nuns who had been impregnated by priests. And there was me thinking that priest only liked little boys!:rolleyes:

I think these tales fit neatly into the category of the Mariah Monk type sectarian slander. You know, just like the WMD that Blair was fond on quoting.

[Ged]

There certainly was a case of a nun made pregnant by a priest that I heard of. Under questioning by the mother superior of how it happened, the nun replied 'Benedictus'

[Sloyne]

'Benedictus'Groannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn:)

[ChrisGeorge]

There certainly was a case of a nun made pregnant by a priest that I heard of. Under questioning by the mother superior of how it happened, the nun replied 'Benedictus'


Aye and then there's the girl who confessed to the priest that she'd had sex with St. Michael because his name was on the label in his underpants. :celb (23):

Chris

[lindylou]

All of these urban "myths" are exactly that, MYTHS and were based on Liverpool's past, very sectarian, culture. I have heard the same story about the convent that once stood on Copperas Hill and St. Nick's also Notre Dame convent on Mount Pleasant. The latest one I heard about was in the early sixties when the sisters of the Franciscan Missionaries of Mary occupied St. Augustine's at the corner of Great Howard Street and Chisinale Street. Rumour had it that it was an abortion facility for rich Irish and English catholic girls, and nuns who had been impregnated by priests. And there was me thinking that priest only liked little boys!:rolleyes:

I think these tales fit neatly into the category of the Mariah Monk type sectarian slander. You know, just like the WMD that Blair was fond on quoting.


I've heard some mention in the mists of time about Mariah Monk. Can you remind me ??

[Sloyne]

I've heard some mention in the mists of time about Mariah Monk. Can you remind me ??'The Awful Disclosures of the Hotel Dieu Nunnery of Montreal' or most commonly known as 'Maria Monk' was the figment of a very vicious anti catholic imagination. It was first published in 1836 in the United States of America with the above title, later edited as 'The Awful Disclosures of Mariah Monk'. Maria Monk was a famous American imposter who made a lot of money out of religious bigotry. She claimed to be a nun in a Montreal convent where she allegedly suffered torture, sexual degradation and exploitation at the hands of degenerate priests and nuns.

Incredibly, this book is still available and can be purchased from certain right wing American evangelical, so called, Christian groups.

[PhilipG]

'The Awful Disclosures of the Hotel Dieu Nunnery of Montreal' or most commonly known as 'Maria Monk' was the figment of a very vicious anti catholic imagination. It was first published in 1836 in the United States of America with the above title, later edited as 'The Awful Disclosures of Mariah Monk'. Maria Monk was a famous American imposter who made a lot of money out of religious bigotry. She claimed to be a nun in a Montreal convent where she allegedly suffered torture, sexual degradation and exploitation at the hands of degenerate priests and nuns.

Incredibly, this book is still available and can be purchased from certain right wing American evangelical, so called, Christian groups.

Sounds an interesting book.
I'd buy it! :shock:

[stan]

3 different sources say it was 1973.
See posts 7, 9 & 13 in this thread.
If the school is still standing, they should know when it was built.

I must be 5 years older than what I thought I was eh?

[Ged]

The nuns were asked why they travelled to the convent on their bikes down the old cobbled lane. 'we always come this way' they said.

[PhilipG]

I must be 5 years older than what I thought I was eh?

I didn't mean anything personal, Stan.
1973 was when the foundations were dug.
For all I know, the school was built 5 years later, or you might be remembering something else.
My memory is awful, so when I'm writing about history, I always check my facts.

[stan]

Nah,it's just me being sarky.It's just weird being told it was '73.I used to play on that site where the bodies were and I remember when the high fences got put up.They must have discovered the bodies earlier and moved them when the site was cleared.

[Sloyne]

Sounds an interesting book.
I'd buy it! :shock:I understand Enid Blyton wrote good childrens fiction too. Do you think women are better at this sort of fiction?:)

[PhilipG]

I understand Enid Blyton wrote good childrens fiction too. Do you think women are better at this sort of fiction?:)

J K Rowling's doing quite well for herself.
She only called herself that so people wouldn't know what sex she was.

Oops, we've strayed off-topic. :unibrow:

[ChrisGeorge]

J K Rowling's doing quite well for herself.
She only called herself that so people wouldn't know what sex she was.



Well, maybe that was the reason. There's quite a tradition among English writers to only use initials - W. H. Auden, C. S. Lewis, T. S. Eliot, G. K. Chesterton, etc., etc. She may have thought that her using the initials might give her the cachet of being a top writer. . . .

Chris

[PhilipG]

Well, maybe that was the reason. There's quite a tradition among English writers to only use initials - W. H. Auden, C. S. Lewis, T. S. Eliot, G. K. Chesterton, etc., etc. She may have thought that her using the initials might give her the cachet of being a top writer. . . .

Chris

Chris.

She said so herself in an interview.

[SteH]

Well, maybe that was the reason. There's quite a tradition among English writers to only use initials - W. H. Auden, C. S. Lewis, T. S. Eliot, G. K. Chesterton, etc., etc. She may have thought that her using the initials might give her the cachet of being a top writer. . . .

Chris

Does anyone know if there's any truth in the story that a great rival of T S Eliots said in a radio interview "dont you realise that T S Eliot is almost TOILET backwards". I've always wondered if its genuine or something our English teacher made up to try and liven up a lesson.

[Sloyne]

But wasn't PhillipG trying a bit of a wind-up?:) But yes, we have strayed a bit off topic.

[PhilipG]

But wasn't PhillipG trying a bit of a wind-up?:) But yes, we have strayed a bit off topic.

No, it wasn't a wind-up.
Just a response.

Anyway, back on topic.
Some of the graves were dated 1859, but as far as I can make out the closest epidemic was cholera in the summer of 1849.
So, it's still a mystery.

[Sloyne]

As if!

Really.
Some people.

Etc., etc.

Presumably the Irish Famine victims died in Ireland and were buried there.
Yes, I know the Famine caused many to emigrate, but I don't think they emigrated to die wholesale at their destinations.But not beyond the realm of posibility when you consider Britain was the originator of concentration camps. But I think it implausible for the reasons given above. However, thousands of famine victims died, not just enroute, but in places like the quarantine station at Grosse Ile, QC., Canada. In 1847, 50 ships arrived from Liverpool filled to the gun'nels with Irish famine victims who were discharged at Grosse Ile in the St. Lawrence River. That same year 5,424 people died of various deseases, but mainly typhus, at the quarantine station.

Liverpool, the largest port for transportation of Irish famine victims to the colonies, sometimes picked up victims at Irish west coast ports and transported them to Liverpool, with some voyagers taking between two and four weeks, depending on weather and winds. Those passengers were landed in Liverpool in various stages of ill health, then transported to quarantine camps outside the Liverpool municipal boundry. Could this gravesite be on one of those ancient camp sites?

Canada, Australia and the USA have elevated thier quarantime camps to National Historic Site status. It would be very understandable for the UK, given the "Irish Troubles" of the passed 4 decades, to want to keep such a site, as a concentration camp for famine victims, quiet. However, nothing of this magnatude can remain hidden for ever and, just like the Sarpedan affair after WW11, truth will, eventualy, out.

[Sloyne]

Yes, I know the Famine caused many to emigrate, but I don't think they emigrated to die wholesale at their destinations.Has anyone ever wondered where these starving, pennyless Irish peasants got the money to pay for passage to Canada, Australia or the USA?

Irish emigration during the famine was NOT entirely voluntary. When the British parliament passed the law making landlords responsible, through taxation, for their starving, destitute tennants, they (landlords) found it cheaper to charter ships and dispose of their charges by shipping them abroad. And just who would refuse to go when they were starving in their homeland? So, for all intents and purposes the emigration of Irish famine victims, in the vast majority, amounted to forced transportation.

[Sloyne]

Further to the above and with reference to todays BBC news concerning RUC and Special Branch collussion in the murders, by "Loyalist" para-militaries in Northern Ireland, of a number of catholics. One can readilly see why the UK government would want to keep a grave site, containing thousands of Irish famine victims, very quiet.

[ChrisGeorge]

Further to the above and with reference to todays BBC news concerning RUC and Special Branch collussion in the murders, by "Loyalist" para-militaries in Northern Ireland, of a number of catholics. One can readilly see why the UK government would want to keep a grave site, containing thousands of Irish famine victims, very quiet.

Except that it is by no means proven that the bodies discovered in Old Swan were Irish famine victims. It would seem to me to be wild and irresponsible speculation to assume the bodies were those of Irish famine victims disposed of by the British government.

Chris

[Sloyne]

Except that it is by no means proven that the bodies discovered in Old Swan were Irish famine victims. It would seem to me to be wild and irresponsible speculation to assume the bodies were those of Irish famine victims disposed of by the British governmentYes, your right, I should have made myself clearer and included the word "IF" in my submission.

[Gnomie]

I think the Irish would have chosen to stay in their homeland and be fed rather than be shipped all over the world. my ancestors came over in the 1840`s from Dublin,Mayo and Roscommon. they lived in and survived the courts of Vauxhall.

As for the mass grave in Old Swan . there are rumoured to be a number of sites around the city containing Irish. They called it the Irish Holocaust. nothing connects them to Old Swan, its just another suggestion. Funny thing i heard once in the Red House pub in the 1980`s . an old fella was talking about the graves and swore blind it was Canadian Soldiers in there? ive never heard anything on this mind? maybe to much beer:PDT_Aliboronz_24:

mind you read this. Canadian!!! Old Swan!!!!:shock: :eek:

http://www.biographi.ca/EN/ShowBio.asp?BioId=37876


Really i doubt we will ever find out:disgust:

[Sloyne]

I think the Irish would have chosen to stay in their homeland and be fed rather than be shipped all over the world.Goes without saying. My ancestors also arrived in the mid eighteen hundreds escaping deprivation and starvation. And they settled in what is now known as Vauxhall. According to stories told by my granddad Fitz (Fitzpatrick), the English were less than welcoming and treated the Irish like lepers. He too told stories of Irish immigrants being kept aboard ships in the river then landed at night and herded through deserted streets to the outskirts to, presumably, camps. He told me a story of renting a house for himself and his new bride, Mary Anne O'Brien, at the top of Rose Vale, Everton, and having the house dowsed in parafin oil, by religious bigots, and set ablaze while they slept. They escaped with thier lives and nothing else. He would say; "They made a bonfire of our few little pieces and sticks, just because we were Irish and catholic".

[Gnomie]

Thats a sad story Sloyne. it must have been horrible to be Irish back then.

[Ged]

It is in fact true and recorded that many who came to the inner city liverpool from Ireland and in particular the Scottie road area did die of their illnesses and in fact if you check out the grounds and crypt of St. Anthony's - over 2,300 are buried there.

I also have an history dvd with Cliff Hayes, Historian and author of a couple of Liverpool books being interviewed throughout it, saying that the Liverpool authorities were actively paying ship captains to discharge the Irish emigrants at Anglesey as Liverpool was getting beyond the bounds of coping with the influx.

[Gerard]

Was at my Cousin's Christening yesterday at St Oswalds Old Swan for the latest arrival of the O'Shea clan...
Tim O'shea was my uncle being married to my Mams sister and arrived here from Cork pennyless..He built up a Civil Engineering firm and at one time or another Every Liverpool Irishman must have worked for him pulling the big Cables from BICC in Prescot..and Quite a lot of Scousers as well..Yours truly included..The Perfect Gentleman..

[Sloyne]

Thats a sad story Sloyne. it must have been horrible to be Irish back then.I most likely know your family, me having grown up in 13 Rose Place right facing Comus Street. I knew a Mr. Tim Hogan who married one of the McMullen women and I think, listening to me mam, her best mate, Dolly Hickey, was courting a Christy Hogan before marrying into the McMullen's, I forget whether it was to Dan or Pat McMullen.

[Gnomie]

Hi Sloyne

I only know the brothers and sisters for my grandfather.

and the sister and brother of my great grandfather.

all from comus street and surrunding area. im sure they had cousins so these hogans sre interesting as they are in the same place.

cheers mate

Tony

[knowhowe]

"...'Containment Squads' moved in on the diseased and starving immigrants, removed their children, then herded the Irish men and women to a containment camp in a field on the outskirts of Liverpool. They were then systematically shot and buried in unmarked coffins".

Fascinating stuff- but why bother going to the trouble and expense of providing coffins?

[ChrisGeorge]

"...'Containment Squads' moved in on the diseased and starving immigrants, removed their children, then herded the Irish men and women to a containment camp in a field on the outskirts of Liverpool. They were then systematically shot and buried in unmarked coffins".

Fascinating stuff- but why bother going to the trouble and expense of providing coffins?

Hi Steve

You're right. The story that Tom Slemen and Keith Andrews are promulgating doesn't quite add up.

Chris

[Bevy]

my granddad's corner shop was built right on top of this mass grave.
we believe the shop was built around 1905 and was called Mickasey's corner shop but most knew the shop as just 'Micks'
The shop was demolished before work started on project Orchid in 1973,my mother has always been interested in the subject as she was brought up and lived in the shop.

Below is a link to a scan from the Liverpool Echo 1996 with some information and a map marking the location of the grave and my granddad's shop,hope this is some use to anyone researching the graves.

warning its a full scan (3.3mb) but you can read everything.


http://bevysworld.bulldoghome.com/photos/BDRES/bevysworld_bulldoghome_com/Pict0004.JPG

I know Its a long shot but if anyone has a picture of the shop my family would love to see it as we have lost any pictures we had.

My mother and Uncle also have some very strange stories about hooded figures they used to see as children, but that's another story.

[Ged]

Hiya Bevy. Give Tom Slemen a ring and we'll look forward to seeing the 'hooded figures of Old Swan' in Haunted Liverpool 79.

[Ged]

BUT - Don't tell Steve Faragher :)

[Cadfael]

my granddad's corner shop was built right on top of this mass grave.
we believe the shop was built around 1905 and was called Mickasey's corner shop but most knew the shop as just 'Micks'
The shop was demolished before work started on project Orchid in 1973,my mother has always been interested in the subject as she was brought up and lived in the shop.

Below is a link to a scan from the Liverpool Echo 1996 with some information and a map marking the location of the grave and my granddad's shop,hope this is some use to anyone researching the graves.

warning its a full scan (3.3mb) but you can read everything.


http://bevysworld.bulldoghome.com/photos/BDRES/bevysworld_bulldoghome_com/Pict0004.JPG

I know Its a long shot but if anyone has a picture of the shop my family would love to see it as we have lost any pictures we had.

My mother and Uncle also have some very strange stories about hooded figures they used to see as children, but that's another story.

An excellent scan! Cheers :PDT11

[SteveFaragher]

I've found the source.
It was Derek Whale's "Lost Villages of Liverpool" Part 1 (1984).

The graves were first discovered in April 1973, so a trawl through the newspapers at the Record Office might reveal contemporary accounts.

Looks like Tom has overegged the story here to, "wood that wouldnt burn" and Government cover up, too many X-files makes Tom a dull boy

[pasha]

can some one tell me exactly where they where i went to school in old swan
(st agnes ) 1973 i started there and i dont remember any one talking about mass graves you know what kids are like. where they any where near that school?
debbie

[MarkA]

On the site of Saint Oswald's Infant School directly opposite Tesco's

[Ged]

Yes, there's a map pinpointing the site in Message 81 by Bevy.

[lottie]

This has been an interesting thread. It must have been horrendous finding them! Never heard of 'wood that doesn't burn' in my life, weird!

[pasha]

it all sounds a bit weird and far fetched, wood that would,nt burn, some coffins with dates on, all buried in age groups, mostly young i think i read,
and if they where from other cemetary.s how the hell would they move them?
especially in them days. (horse and cart ) you would need a least a hundred of them. any way im sure if it was genocide or something to that evect would,nt someone have picked up on it and written about it or stumbled on it years ago.

[snappel]

The graves were there, but just how much fact made it into Slemen's story is debatable.

[SteveFaragher]

Ive had some of that jsut ately, left it out in me yard, pee'ed down, bloody stuff wouldnt burn, er think it was a bit damp, or it could have been spring heel jack/timeslip/the man playing cards in the pyramid/the cone of power

never let the facts get in the way of a good "folk" tale

coming soon.....

Harry de Fazackerly''s tales of Haunted Alt Valley

[MarkA]

I remember Slemen's tale that encompassed the St. Oswald's burial site (St Oswald's Street - Edge Lane Drive - Broad Green Road) that was about an underground rumbling if I'm not mistaken. As a church-goer, I used to attend St. Oswald's (now I go to St. Paul's) and the current priest, who's about to leave, used to regularly profess that there were dark things happening in the parish. :eek:

[Ged]

Why didn't he just put the lights on then. I'm always suspicious of Derek 'Sam' Akorah or Yvette 'Screaming' Fielding doing their bizz in the dark?

[MarkA]

Why didn't he just put the lights on then. I'm always suspicious of Derek 'Sam' Akorah or Yvette 'Screaming' Fielding doing their bizz in the dark?

I watched a live show of theirs once and was monitoring their webcams at the same time as I wanted to know what went on during the advert breaks. Anyway, they were doing the ouija glass on a table without much luck. Out came the furniture polish to polish the table so they could move the glass easier. Someone then realised that the webcam was still monitoring them, some swearing, then someone conveniently blocked the view by standing in front of the webcam. :disgust:

[steveb]

Why didn't he just put the lights on then. I'm always suspicious of Derek 'Sam' Akorah or Yvette 'Screaming' Fielding doing their bizz in the dark?

To right. Most Haunted, what a laugh with Fielding saying, " did you see that"
as one of the camera crew pushed a chair over...

[Ged]

Helllllloooo is there any b-o-d-y there??????

'OH Derek, err I mean Sam, the ouija thing's moving, who's there????

M
R

Ooh i'm pooing myself, come on who is it, who is it?????

S
H
E
E
N

[pasha]

ivvvy ivvvy get him out of me ivvvy

[pasha]

i must admit though it is boring without derek
BRING BACK DEREK ACOURAH

[wsteve55]

Helllllloooo is there any b-o-d-y there??????

'OH Derek, err I mean Sam, the ouija thing's moving, who's there????

M
R

Ooh i'm pooing myself, come on who is it, who is it?????

S
H
E
E
N

Hilarious, who needs sit-coms:handclap:

[customhouse]

Just been reading a piece by some Mancunian /Irish git. Who reckons that the Mass graves were of Irish Immigrants fleeing from the Potato Famine. He reckons the children were taken away and then the sick adults were put in camps in Old Swan and then later taken to the grave site and shot. What a load of SH**. Typical bloody rebel rousing fanatical crap, mind you what else would you expect from a Mancunian. He wrote it in the Manchester Irish broadsheet. Bloody Rag ought to be burnt.

[Ged]

I know, fancy taking the trouble to put them in coffins with name plates on them, buried in some sort of order too :rolleyes:

[snappel]

I think 'customhouse' is more interested in airing his views on Mancs and Irish people.

For the record though, that theory is a load of rubbish. Death camps and mass murder in Old Swan? I sincerely doubt it.

[customhouse]

Wrong Schnappel.
I happen to be first generation Liverpool Irish.The point I was making is that the writer is a rabble rouser spouting garbage, and the fact that he is Manchester based with their record of love for Merseyside, is a possible explanation for the filth he came out with.

[Gnomie]

Just been reading a piece by some Mancunian /Irish git. Who reckons that the Mass graves were of Irish Immigrants fleeing from the Potato Famine. He reckons the children were taken away and then the sick adults were put in camps in Old Swan and then later taken to the grave site and shot. What a load of SH**. Typical bloody rebel rousing fanatical crap, mind you what else would you expect from a Mancunian. He wrote it in the Manchester Irish broadsheet. Bloody Rag ought to be burnt.

There was a rumour that the grave contained bodies poor Irish settlers. though im sure they would have just dug a hole for them and tossed them in giving little thought to any care.

St James cemetery next to St Georges hall had to be cleared for the new construction of the gardens. this would make sense as if they had to move so many bodies in coffins then an area like Old Swan could accomodate them. but i guess we will never know the real reason.

still it puts food on Slemens table all this guessing:PDT_Xtremez_42:

[PhilipG]

As far as I know, the gardens were laid over the graveyard.
Which is probably the reason why it's always so well looked after.

One of the theories put about was that the graveyard was cleared for the building of St George's Hall, but that's wrong on a number of counts.
St George's Hall was built on the site of buildings, including the Infirmary.
(The graveyard was behind the site, where the gardens are today).
St George's Hall was completed before the dates on some of the graves.

The real reason for the mass grave will probably always be a mystery, but my personal feeling is they were plague victims who were buried in what would have been the countryside.
There again the cholera epidemic was a good ten years before the dates on some of the graves.

[Ged]

The situation regarding bodies within I can give first hand information on. As a kid and living nearby, we used to play football in the none flower parts, namely near to the path which runs from William Brown st right through to St. John's Lane. They were digging up (or is it down) within the gardens nearby and we got down there and there were bones and skulls. We later found out that these were possibly Napoleonic prisoners of war, so they're still there or at least some of them are.

[TonyS]

Hi,

Does anyone know where these graves were found.
The following OS map was published in 1906.
I suspect that the mass graves were paupers burials at St. Oswald's RC Church.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/Tony_sw/stoswald1906.jpg


See you,

Tony

[Waterways]

Hi,

Does anyone know where these graves were found.
The following OS map was published in 1906.
I suspect that the mass graves were paupers burials at St. Oswald's RC Church.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/Tony_sw/stoswald1906.jpg

See you,

Tony

From what I was aware. just above Maddocks St. Some houses are built on the ground already. More houses were built, right on top of the site. The houses to the bottom of Maddocks St were demolished to build Hurst Gardens.

[TonyS]

From what I was aware. just above Maddocks St. Some houses are built on the ground already. More houses were built, right on top of the site. The houses to the bottom of Maddocks St were demolished to build Hurst Gardens.

The new school is between the church and Percival Street, and the graves were discovered whilst digging the foundations for the school.

Are you Tom Slemen's fact-checker ? :)

[Waterways]

The new school is between the church and Percival Street, and the graves were discovered whilst digging the foundations for the school.

Are you Tom Slemen's fact-checker ? :)

I got the roads mixed up. I knew of it at the time they were discovered. It was kept secret. I worked for British Gas at the time. You got to know these things as work would be interrupted.

[Roscoe]

If anyone wanted to know about the so called mass graves in Old Swan and had consulted early OS maps of the area they would have noted the cemetary was marked. It is a pity Mr Slemen rarely quotes dates or sources in his publications or articles nor seems to offer any traceable quotations. I never bother wasting my time reading either his writings or books that seem to be either unheard of urban myths or the figments of his own wild imagination.

[blackvelvet]

Has anyone else written about the grave? I'm struggling to find any other sources on the topic.

If you can remember the actual discovery of the grave, know any of the people that did, or have any other theories regarding this please email me blackvelvet9@yahoo.co.uk, I'd love as much information as possible!

[Ged]

Have you looked over all 100+ posts on the subject here first?

[blackvelvet]

Yes - in great detail. Other than Tom Slemen (whose work is fairly dubious considering his superstition), and Whale's 'Lost Villages of Liverpool' there are no factual written accounts of the discovery of the grave. I'm interested in the views of other historians and I'm having difficulty finding it mentioned anywhere else. I'm studying this topic for a possible history dissertation which is why I could do with strong factual sources.

I'd particularly like people who remember the discovery of the grave to contact me. Despite what has been mentioned throughout the thread, through my own research it has come to light that there is speculation over the year in which the graves were discovered. I know it is quoted as being 1973, but locals have insisted that it was much later - I refer to 'Stan' who claims that he remembers the fences going up - that he was born in 1973, yet St Oswalds Primary School (the site in which the grave was discovered) was first contemplated in 1979.

[Bevy]

It was about 77/78, I remember it clearly as we used to play football in the street.

It was a basic building site but when they discovered the bodies they erected a fence covered with huge blue plastic sheets

This was up for a few months until the bodies were removed,then work carried on and the school was built.

[Ged]

What of this guy from message 15.....

''One letter that took issue with criminologist Keith Andrews's claims of a systematic massacre of Irish immigrants at the site in around 1848 was written by Liverpool's former principal environmental health officer, Ken Williams, who was in charge of the 1973 exhumation.''


I don't think Keith Andrews claims are of any importance, he has a self given title of criminologist and is Tom Slemen's sidekick but can echo newspaper cuttings from 1973 (or is it 78/79 as others have said) or any writings by Ken Williams be unearthed from the LRO?

[Bevy]

My grandfathers shop was demolished in 1973 and yes they did find a few graves but the mass grave was not found until the foundation work for the school began in 1977/78..see my post and scan #81

I may be able to get the exact dates as my aunt lives opposite the site.

Next time I see here I shall get what info I can.

But trust me the mass grave was found around 77/78.

[blackvelvet]

Thanks Bevy!

I've looked at the scan and it's excellent. I'll be sure to trawl through the records office and have a look through the newspapers from both eras and see what I can find...I'll look at old OS maps too.

With regards to Keith Andrews - I can't find any of his published works or indeed anything about him at all that doesn't relate to Tom Slemen. I'm not sure that anything he says can be take literally!

Ken Williams's version of events do seem slightly sketchy...as far fetched as it sounds (and I'd love it to be true) - he may be covering up a sinister government conspiracy! I'd love to get an interview with him.

[Spike]

Not sure if it means anything but one old bloke once told us that Canadian Soldiers had been buried on that site? He is not around anymore so I cant ask him. I wish I had asked him about it back then.

[hmtmaj]

2 pages from the book which report on the Mass Graves.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1414/000010004n.th.jpg (http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=000010004n.jpg)

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3889/000010005.th.jpg (http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=000010005.jpg)

[Waterways]

I think on this thread, the man responsible for the disposal of the bodies was quoted. They were not murdered Irish people from the famine - some anti-English Irish loony came up with. The mainly Irish who died during the famine (mainly from disease), are buried in a mass grave at Anfield cemetery.

However, where they came from was not confirmed. Probably from a city centre cemetery, when the city expanded and buildings were needed. There was a church behind St. Georg's Hall that had its graves removed.

[blackvelvet]

hmtmaj - Those book pages are fantastic, thanks very much.

Waterways - you're probably right in saying that they were just transported from another graveyard. However i'm investigating all angles to this story, from government conspiracy, to cholera, to Irish immigrant massacre! (even though I know the last one is a bit ludicrous)

I was interested to read in the book extract that one man is quoted as saying that the bodies were definitely buried pre-1840, as after that date it became common practice for all coffins to have proper detailed inscriptions. Yet Ken Williams (the man allegedly responsible for the cremation of the bodies) insists that some plaques were dated 1859. If what the man in the Catholic Pictorial said is true, then Williams isn't releasing all the information that he knows!

Keep it coming this is great.

[Waterways]

hmtmaj - Those book pages are fantastic, thanks very much.

Waterways - you're probably right in saying that they were just transported from another graveyard. However i'm investigating all angles to this story, from government conspiracy, to cholera, to Irish immigrant massacre! (even though I know the last one is a bit ludicrous)

I was interested to read in the book extract that one man is quoted as saying that the bodies were definitely buried pre-1840, as after that date it became common practice for all coffins to have proper detailed inscriptions. Yet Ken Williams (the man allegedly responsible for the cremation of the bodies) insists that some plaques were dated 1859. If what the man in the Catholic Pictorial said is true, then Williams isn't releasing all the information that he knows!

Keep it coming this is great.

I think Williams said there was no sign of gunshot or whatever - so mass murder was ruled out. It is difficult to hide mass murder. Some were children. Child mortality was rife, until post WW2. I think they were buried from youngest to oldest.

[wsteve55]

Based on the fact that there have been several mass grave burials, found in various parts of Liverpool,such as the school site in Lower Breck rd.(where over a thousand bodies,mainly young people,were intered,then later,covered over by the White City dogtrack!!!) It doesn't seem improbable that the Old Swan site was something like a cholera pit? As for moving bodies from defunct graveyards,Grant gardens, which was the site of the Necropolis,was closed about 1910, and turned into a park.During trial excavations a couple of years ago,for Merseytram, on this site,......guess what, they found human remains! So I'd conclude from that,only the families/relatives of the deceased who were wealthy,or bothered enough to pay for removal,did so, and the rest were played footie on for years,unknown to the players, etc! :)

[Ged]

I don't go along with anybody taking the time, trouble and cost - pre 1840s to exhume bodies for transfer elsewhere, unless like has been mentioned, family members would bother to pay for it. It is known that French prisoners of war still lie in St. Johns Gardens where St. Johns church and burial ground existed, likewise in the old Necropolis there still lie remains. As for the Irish, thousands died here - 2000 buried at St. Anthonys, Scotland Road alone including in the crypt. I would think it is more likely a cholera or plague pit. Addison Street had sheds where people suffering disease were put and died, it was then known as Sickmans lane, mentioned earlier by me on this thread.

[lindylou]

Based on the fact that there have been several mass grave burials, found in various parts of Liverpool,such as the school site in Lower Breck rd.(where over a thousand bodies,mainly young people,were intered,then later,covered over by the White City dogtrack!!!)


Is that true !! :eek: I've lived by Lower Breck all my life and never heard about this ! I just about remember the White City, I vaguely remember seeing the floodlights from the track when I was little. St Margarets school is there now.
I never heard any of the older Anfielders recount this tale.

here's a picture of the school-

[wsteve55]

Sorry Lindy,
hope I haven't spooked you:eek: but I only learnt about this in the Echo, in the late 70's early 80's,when I think the scool was built! I used to pass the dogtrack(though I didn't know that's what it was) on the way to work,and thought it looked a right dump,black painted, corrugated iron!
The Echo probably has this in it's archives, and though I can't be sure,even the Merseymart,had some sort of story about it?
Steve.

[blackvelvet]

'Criminologist' Keith Andrews' claims:

http://www.ipa.net/~bcollins/liverpool.html

[ChrisGeorge]

'Criminologist' Keith Andrews' claims:

http://www.ipa.net/~bcollins/liverpool.html

I just posted on another site and I think it applies here as well--

Well written fiction usually does make for an entertaining read.

Chris

[lindylou]

Sorry Lindy,
hope I haven't spooked you:eek: but I only learnt about this in the Echo, in the late 70's early 80's,when I think the scool was built! I used to pass the dogtrack(though I didn't know that's what it was) on the way to work,and thought it looked a right dump,black painted, corrugated iron!
The Echo probably has this in it's archives, and though I can't be sure,even the Merseymart,had some sort of story about it?
Steve.

thanks Steve.
maybe I did hear about it then if it was in the Echo - - if so I don't know why I've forgotten about it.
If there were bodies there, it mustn't have been known about generally, as I'm sure my grandparents and older neighbours would have known some story about it. Maybe it was kept quiet at the time.

when the school was built do you think the bodies were left to remain there then ??

[Waterways]

'Criminologist' Keith Andrews' claims:

http://www.ipa.net/~bcollins/liverpool.html

He needs sectioning - urgently

[Max]

I remember when they were mentioning ghostly monks on that site and claimed a monastry was there. Sure it was in Haunted Lpool 3 or 4 and if the home office has no records, then they won't find it.

[wsteve55]

thanks Steve.
maybe I did hear about it then if it was in the Echo - - if so I don't know why I've forgotten about it.
If there were bodies there, it mustn't have been known about generally, as I'm sure my grandparents and older neighbours would have known some story about it. Maybe it was kept quiet at the time.

when the school was built do you think the bodies were left to remain there then ??

Hi Lindy,
I remember the similarities, with the Old Swan school site,and more recently,Grant gardens, where there are,apparently,still remains,though that was, an official cemetery! It looks like the authorities of the time,weren't too careful about these things,but I suppose during an epidemic,of which there were several,in the 19th century,they had to take desperate measures!
I cant remember for sure,but I think the remains were moved,but based on past experience.....who know's:rolleyes:(Ha,just looking back at my previous post, and ironic i've spelled school,as scool:nod:)
Ta Steve.

[fortinian]

I'm always cautious of reports of post-middle ages 'mass graves'. Graveyards and burial sites have always been an important part of Christian belief and were generally well documented, especially in the 19th Century.


For example:

http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/liverpoolgraveyards.html

Some interesting info here about the Liverpool Cholera Riots, though I apreciate you may not all be able to access the full article:

http://jhmas.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/60/4/478

[Samp]

The enclosed picture is an old ordnance survey map (year unknown) Which clearly shows a burial ground in the area concerned. In fact it shows two burial grounds (disused) alongside each other, (I have marked these with a cross). The grave yard of St Oswalds is also shown.

In the book 'The Iron Church' a history of St Georges church, there is an item related to the Irish immigrants and the city council having to hire thousands of special policemen and the government sending 2;000 troops to Liverpool.

Make of this what you will!

[hmtmaj]

The enclosed picture is an old ordnance survey map (year unknown) Which clearly shows a burial ground in the area concerned. In fact it shows two burial grounds (disused) alongside each other, (I have marked these with a cross). The grave yard of St Oswalds is also shown.

In the book 'The Iron Church' a history of St Georges church, there is an item related to the Irish immigrants and the city council having to hire thousands of special policemen and the government sending 2;000 troops to Liverpool.

Make of this what you will!

Hi Samp, the two "X's marks the spots" are burial grounds for the nuns and old priests etc. The mass graves where found on your map "under" Percival St and the houses below it, this is where the new school now stands.
Martin

[loz]

Attempting to find some information regarding burials around the Old Swan area.

Had an ancestor who died Rock St, Old Swan in 1913.

Would anyone have an idea to the closest cemetery to Old Swan the person may have been buried at?

I am in Oz so have no idea regarding the districts in Liverpool.
Any help would be great!

:thumbsup:

[hmtmaj]

Liverpool has many cemeteries, Anfield, Yew Tree, ALlerton, Ford etc.
Try looking here first:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hibernia/bur.htm

Let us know how you get on. Martin

[anonymouse]

Attempting to find some information regarding burials around the Old Swan area. Had an ancestor who died Rock St, Old Swan in 1913. Would anyone have an idea to the closest cemetery to Old Swan the person may have been buried at?

It's also possible that they may be buried in a church graveyard.

[loz]

Thanks for the tips!

[Samp]

Hi Samp, the two "X's marks the spots" are burial grounds for the nuns and old priests etc. The mass graves where found on your map "under" Percival St and the houses below it, this is where the new school now stands.
Martin

Thanks for the info, Martin. I though the school was built where I indicated, I stand corrected.

[Spike]

Attempting to find some information regarding burials around the Old Swan area.

Had an ancestor who died Rock St, Old Swan in 1913.

Would anyone have an idea to the closest cemetery to Old Swan the person may have been buried at?

I am in Oz so have no idea regarding the districts in Liverpool.
Any help would be great!

:thumbsup:


What religion where they? a few of the churches in the area have graveyards.

[fortinian]

Looking at the Undates OS Map, my 1830s tithe map and a modern map of the area (using Google Earth) to layer them I have come up with this rather startling result.

Here is the modern map, St Oswalds Church in Red. St Oswalds School in Blue.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3468/3399251982_5d2e23c5d7.jpg?v=0

Now with the undated OS map, probably late Victorian or early 20th C.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3446/3398442863_9a2cfcb6e7.jpg?v=0

Now the 1830s tithe map. Harder to make everything line up on this one...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3632/3398443265_9a6a3c7b37.jpg?v=0

As you can see, there have been buildings next to the church since the 1830s. So there is zero chance of the 'mass grave' being part of a Potato Famine related incident.

I've got some more thoughts on this... i'll post them up later!

[ItsaZappathing]

I somehow knew you'd come up with a good answer etc Fortinian.
Nice one:PDT11

[hmtmaj]

The Plot thickens. :ninja:

All to the right of the School ( the Tech College in Braodgreen Rd ) has gone now !

Time to dig a little deeper eh :034:

Good Detective work Fortinian, Mart :PDT11

[hmtmaj]

Fortinian, your OS map must be after 1906 as I have the 1906 version and only theleft half of Maddocks St exists on my 1906 map, whereas as it's complete on yours,
Martin

[Pete E]

Looking at the Undates OS Map, my 1830s tithe map and a modern map of the area (using Google Earth) to layer them I have come up with this rather startling result.

Here is the modern map, St Oswalds Church in Red. St Oswalds School in Blue.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3468/3399251982_5d2e23c5d7.jpg?v=0

Now with the undated OS map, probably late Victorian or early 20th C.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3446/3398442863_9a2cfcb6e7.jpg?v=0

Now the 1830s tithe map. Harder to make everything line up on this one...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3632/3398443265_9a6a3c7b37.jpg?v=0

As you can see, there have been buildings next to the church since the 1830s. So there is zero chance of the 'mass grave' being part of a Potato Famine related incident.

I've got some more thoughts on this... i'll post them up later!

I've been scratching my head reading through these thread's, because I'm almost certain that the mass grave was at the junction of MILL LANE and MONTAGUE ROAD, which is the site of St.Oswalds "new" junior school. The area highlighted blue on the above maps is the infant's school & nursery which were built later. I can remember the work going on at the time, because I went to the "old school" at that time which was on Montague road, directly behind the church.
The "new" junior school play-ground & infant school playing field is where the old school stood.

[hmtmaj]

I've been scratching my head reading through these thread's, because I'm almost certain that the mass grave was at the junction of MILL LANE and MONTAGUE ROAD, which is the site of St.Oswalds "new" junior school. The area highlighted blue on the above maps is the infant's school & nursery which were built later. I can remember the work going on at the time, because I went to the "old school" at that time which was on Montague road, directly behind the church.
The "new" junior school play-ground & infant school playing field is where the old school stood.

Pete E. I can guarantee the Mass Graves were found on the map highlighted in Blue, not the "new" school on Montague road.
I also went to St Oswalds and remember them finding the graves on St. Oswalds St side. Martin :PDT11

[fortinian]

Pete E, you are right to be scratching your head... but I have a sneaking suspicion you are right, theat we are looking at the wrong school.

I don't mean to pour doubt on your truthfulness hmtmaj, but childhood memory is a notoriously fickle thing.

If we look at the 1981 Ben Travers article, previously posted there are a few clues that support Pete E...

1. The lead photo seems to show the church some distance from the school... behind quite a lot of trees. Now if you look on the modern googlemap below, you can see where the 'BLUE' school is there are few trees that side of the church. On the other side, where Pete E is speaking about there are many trees and I imagine would give a photo like the one in the article.

But of course, trees can be cut down... so here is some more evidence.

2. Father Patrick James McCartney, parish priest in 1973 is said to have noticed the burials "at the bottom of the garden". We know that the church was surrounded by a graveyard (hardly going to be called a 'garden') and the area where the BLUE school is was already built on... this leads to the conclusion that the priest is talking about the garden to the presbetry, on the rear left hand side of the church and with an extensive garden over the old "Burial Ground (dis.)".

3. The article then goes on to say "three feet beneath St Oswalds scrubland". Hardly what you would call the land where 'Percival Street' was. Scrubland is a weird phrase to use really, on the post-1906 OS map there is an area of trees to the south of the church/presbetry... but would that be scrubland? And even stranger... there was no burial ground marked there...
I suspect that the reporter was getting confused between scrub and garden but still...

The final proof... for me at least is what happens when I map the new Junior School site onto the post-1906 OS map.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3576/3400662885_29ece2ba62.jpg?v=0

The school building covers half of the disused burial ground.

I've convinced myself... but if anyone has any other ideas or can see flaws in my argument i'd love to hear them.

[hmtmaj]

Pete E, you are right to be scratching your head... but I have a sneaking suspicion you are right, theat we are looking at the wrong school.

I don't mean to pour doubt on your truthfulness hmtmaj, but childhood memory is a notoriously fickle thing.

If we look at the 1981 Ben Travers article, previously posted there are a few clues that support Pete E...

1. The lead photo seems to show the church some distance from the school... behind quite a lot of trees. Now if you look on the modern googlemap below, you can see where the 'BLUE' school is there are few trees that side of the church. On the other side, where Pete E is speaking about there are many trees and I imagine would give a photo like the one in the article.

But of course, trees can be cut down... so here is some more evidence.

2. Father Patrick James McCartney, parish priest in 1973 is said to have noticed the burials "at the bottom of the garden". We know that the church was surrounded by a graveyard (hardly going to be called a 'garden') and the area where the BLUE school is was already built on... this leads to the conclusion that the priest is talking about the garden to the presbetry, on the rear left hand side of the church and with an extensive garden over the old "Burial Ground (dis.)".

3. The article then goes on to say "three feet beneath St Oswalds scrubland". Hardly what you would call the land where 'Percival Street' was. Scrubland is a weird phrase to use really, on the post-1906 OS map there is an area of trees to the south of the church/presbetry... but would that be scrubland? And even stranger... there was no burial ground marked there...
I suspect that the reporter was getting confused between scrub and garden but still...

The final proof... for me at least is what happens when I map the new Junior School site onto the post-1906 OS map.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3576/3400662885_29ece2ba62.jpg?v=0

The school building covers half of the disused burial ground.

I've convinced myself... but if anyone has any other ideas or can see flaws in my argument i'd love to hear them.

Now you know me, I'm a lover not a fighter :ninja: but ....

The school, in Blue, on the left, over the burial ground, was built in the late 80's early 90's as the "Old School" on your map, just to the right, wasn't demolished until the mid 80's ( this is the school I went to ) the Junior School.

The School in Blue ( to the right on your map ) is the place in question.
Percival St and the other hosues, along with the Ropers Arms pub, all stood where they are on your map but were demolished late 60's early 70's. The scrubland was where these houses were.


I'm sorry to disappoint you but I was at the school, knew people who lived in the flats ( where Tesco's is ) and could see over the fence, to where they were building.


St. Oswald's Junior School appears on your map just below the church.
St. Oswald's infants School was in what became the Montini Youth club, next to the Wesleyan Chapel ( later St. Oswald's club ) on St. Oswald's st.
I went to both of them up until leaving in 1973.

Then...
The "new" school was started, on the scrubland, where Percival St WAS,
alongside the church in St. Oswalds St.
They then demolished the "Old" school, in montague rd, below the church on your map, then they build the "newer" school", on Montague Rd, next to the burial grounds.
This was the order they done it in.
They have 2 new schools, one built in the 70's and one late 80's.
The one built in the late 70's is the one where the mass graves were found.

Hope this clears things up a bit and we still don't know where they came from :unibrow:

[fortinian]

The mystery deepens! Thanks for clearing that up. You see, I only have pieces of paper to go on a very little specific knowledge of the area.

I'm kinda glad you opened this up again, though it does prove troublesome.

I can farily safely say now that I don't think we will ever find out where they came from. I will descend into the Record Office soon and rip apart every bloody thing they have on the church and the schools.

This has really got me going now!

[hmtmaj]

Cheers :PDT_Aliboronz_24:

Martin

[Spike]

This is a great thread :PDT11

[edwardo]

Interesting.Please dont let this peter out.

[Pete E]

Sorry to disagree with you hmtmaj but I m still convinced that the "mass grave" was at the junction of Mill lane & Montague road.
The quote mentioned in an earlier post said that Fr.McCartney said the graves where "at the bottom of the garden".
The "summer fete's" were always held in the priest's garden, which was between the presbetry and Mill lane.
If the site of the grave had been where Percival street once stood, then surely it would have been unearthed when the foundtion's for the houses & the ropers arms were being dug out. I'm not 100% sure, but I think most houses of that era had celler's. At the very least the pub would of had one.

[burkhilly]

Father McCartney and those summer fetes - I remember them well. Father McCartney was always lovely......He wore a beret, and always seems to have bicycle clips on his trousers. His grave is to the right of the church.

I always thought the mass grave was in the grounds of the new Infants School.

[JMLE]

I can confirm that the mass grave was definately on the site of the current Saint Oswald's Infant school. My sister lived in Pemberton Road at the time and I used to go up to have a nose through the fence (as kids do).

[hmtmaj]

:PDT_Xtremez_42:

I always thought the mass grave was in the grounds of the new Infants School.

Burkhilly, JMLE, thanks for the vote of confidence.
I know for a fact the mass graves were on the site of Percival st and below ( if you look at the map previous). It was wasteland for a couple of years, I used to play on it :PDT_Xtremez_42:

IF, you go to Tesco's and look towards the school, the mass graves were there, NOT the "new" school built on Montague Rd, as this replaced the older one, half way up Montague rd, demolished mid to late 80's. :034:

Martin.

[Pete E]

Just as I was begining to doubt my self, I came up with an inspirational idea! (and I don't have too many of those).
I have just been on the phone to the current Head Mistress of St.Oswald's junior school, who confirmed that it was her school which was built on the "mass grave" site!
Pete.:)

[JMLE]

I could stand to be corrected as it gives more in depth information on http://www.stoswaldoldswan.org.uk/history.htm. I do remember going up to St Oswald Street though to satisfy my young morbid curiosity. How is Miss Jones nowadays? She was starting to struggle after her heart problems and onset of MS when my daughter left in 2007.

[hmtmaj]

It was opposite the flats, I'm sure there's a photo somewhere, I'll have to get digging :034:

[JMLE]

I'm pretty sure too Mart', but the facts are stacking against us.

[hmtmaj]

Here's some more info:

http://liverpool-schools.co.uk/html/st_oswald_s.html

Quote:
"Workmen were demolishing houses for the site of the new infants? school when they found 3,561 unmarked coffins were buried there, stacked sixteen feet deep. "

I'm still digging :034:

Mart

[fortinian]

Forgive my naturally sceptical nature but unless I have proof myself I trust very few modern histories of Liverpool as like I have said before, most 'Histories of Liverpool' are built on nothing but 'Histories of Liverpool'. Basically, because someone wrote it down and got it published it is taken at face value.

I understand that those people are not doing it on purpose or out of malice... just that they have been misinformed and don't have the time/resources to do research. I'm very lucky that I have both of the above.

There are things in this case which do not stack up. From the documentary evidence I will put my money on Pete E's belief than hmtmajs.

Memory is a notorious thing to rely on. You've probably read numerous accounts of these graves being found (not least by Keith Andrews and his sidekick Muttley, sorry, Slemen.) and this has influenced your belief. Indeed, until I started looking at this thread I didn't even know that there was a Junior School behind the Church, I thought the entire St Oswalds school was the one fronting St Oswalds street!

[hmtmaj]

I've done some more digging :034:

I've asked a couple of people who went to St Oswalds at the time too.
Some say St Oswalds St, some say Montague Road.

I'm now coming around to your view.
The ones they would have found on St Oswalds ST would have been a few in comparison to the thousands they found around the corner.
I have a couple more people to ask, I'll let you know the outcome.

Looking at the bottom pic of the two page post I done earlier. The houses in the background do look like Mill Lane :PDT_Xtremez_42:

Martin

[JMLE]

Can I borrow your magnifying glass so I can read it?

[fortinian]

I'm off to the LRO tomorrow, so i'll look there. This is great work guys, we've really pulled this one together. Beers all round.

Now, once we've established where the graves were, we still have to establish WHAT the graves are.

Incidently, Frank Carslyle was on the radio yesterday morning and he trotted out the 'Irish Cholera Victims' story. So much for local history.

[hmtmaj]

Can I borrow your magnifying glass so I can read it?

Mark .... :PDT_Xtremez_12:
see Page 13, Post No 121, the original scan !

On nights were we ? :rolleyes:

Mart

[Ged]

Now you know me, I'm a lover not a fighter :ninja: but ....


Mart. I've just spoken to your lover and sorry but she confirms you're a better fighter.

[Ged]

Surely, part of all this mystery is not just who they were but that they were on land not previously known to be a burial ground so how does that fit in with the Montague Road site which is clearly known to have been part of a burial ground?

[hmtmaj]

Mart. I've just spoken to your lover and sorry but she confirms you're a better fighter.

Er ...
Which One :unibrow:

[Samp]

I worked at the top of Edge Lane in the 70?s and remember walking down Mill lane to see what was going on. This is why I posted my map in the first place, but I still think Martin is more accurate than my recollections.

One point to consider, if the bodies were buried 16 deep, this would not be what you would find in a normal burial ground, which would be a normal 6ft depth, so I don?t see the site being in the convent burial ground.

[fortinian]

Surely, part of all this mystery is not just who they were but that they were on land not previously known to be a burial ground so how does that fit in with the Montague Road site which is clearly known to have been part of a burial ground?

True enough... but I think you are missing the praticalities of such an existance. No original sources mention that the bodies were on land 'not known to be a grave'. All that is ever mentioned is that no-one knows who the bodies belonged to. The 'garden' has obviously been re-turfed and the graves forgotten. The question is, of course, if the 'mass unknown graves' weren't found on the Montague Road site... why was the finding of the 'known graves' never mentioned. If you understand what I mean...


The possibility of graves in coffins with plaques on them from 1959 (as stated by Ken Williams who was in charge of the 1973 exhumation.) has proved to be ridiculous and impossible on the St Oswalds Street Infant School Site.

I spent time checking the Echo and Daily Post in April 1973, the date Derek Whale gives for the graves being found and cannog find any mention, which is odd but corrolates with Ken Williams who said the Home Office called for
"total decorum".

What I think has happened is that an over-zealous reporter has picked this story up, some time after the event and built something out of it that wasn't really there.

[Paddy]

Well most likely the case Fortinian . Ghoulish things create interest.Everytime I walk past saint Austins in Aigburth I am aware that the pavement was once a graveyard. I remember them exhunming the bodies so they could widen the road. Heres another ghoulish tale Hanratty was buried close to Watford they dug him up for his DNA as is now the fashion. They claim he was guilty after the forensics.

[Pete E]

I could stand to be corrected as it gives more in depth information on http://www.stoswaldoldswan.org.uk/history.htm. I do remember going up to St Oswald Street though to satisfy my young morbid curiosity. How is Miss Jones nowadays? She was starting to struggle after her heart problems and onset of MS when my daughter left in 2007.

Miss Jones is still working hard. She loves the place and the kid's.

[JMLE]

Good to hear she's still there, the school would be worse off without her. There can't be too many schools that have such a committed head teacher as St.Oswald's.

[Hutch]

My father was one of the undertakers who took some of the bodies to Anfield cemetary for re-interrment. No mystery at all, all where Victorian, the embalment used at the time made the bodies look perfect.
The article below was sent to a local paper by the bloke who was in charge of the operation.



"I have followed with great interest the recent articles in your paper with regard to the mass grave unearthed in St Oswald Street Old Swan.
The principal officer delegated to be incharge of the entire operation was me.
When the original gravestone had been removed and the bodies re-interred the excavation continued beyond this boundary and it was at this stage other coffins were found.
Some plaques on the coffins had dates of 1859 however this should not be considered to be a mass grave at any one time.
I do not recall seeing bullet marks in the skulls and the authorisation to cremate the bodies was implemented by the Home Office as the result of my request that it should be done in the interest of public health. I know all this to be true cause I was there!
K A WILLIAMS, Gateacre, Liverpool (former Principal Environmental Health Officer for Liverpool)
The more relevant question is "What is Tom Slemen's source?"
Strange hooded monks
Heart taken from coprse
Satanist ( How can we take him seriously)"

[bgkk.rock]

Really I think these bodies is not horrible story. maybe they are victims of unkown war, or solider stuff, otherwise. I mean this graveyard belongs uncertain war. :rolleyes:

[hmtmaj]

Fortinian has sifted through the evidence and sent me his analysis to put on the Old Swan website:

http://oldswan.piczo.com/massgravesofstoswalds?cr=5&linkvar=000044

:handclap:

[owenb]

The bodies found in the mass grave were not from the Irish Famine, Because some of the bodies found were in led lined coffins and if they were poor there is no way they would of been in led coffins?? And all the remains were taken to Anfield crem to be burned and buried in Anfield cem.





Hi all

There appears to be a strong school of thought that the bodies may have been those of Irish famine victims. I remember Waterways was asking recently where Irish famine victims were buried. The following is from
Manchester Irish.com (http://www.manchesterirish.com/news/current/2006_04_01_archive.html) in April of this year:

FAMINE IRISH: MASS MURDER IN LIVERPOOL

A fascinating piece by Peter Berresford Ellis recently appeared in the Irish Post. In 1973 a mass grave was found in Old Swan in Liverpool. In total the remains of 3,561 bodies were found. Journalists were kept away from the site and the Home Office ordered the immediate cremation of the bodies.

Merseyside criminologist Keith Andrews has investigated the case and believes this is a case of mass murder,

"...'Containment Squads' moved in on the diseased and starving immigrants, removed their children, then herded the Irish men and women to a containment camp in a field on the outskirts of Liverpool. They were then systematically shot and buried in unmarked coffins".

Berresford Ellis states:

"If Andrews can prove his contention, we are talking about one of the greatest murders of Irish men and women since Cromwellian times".

[blackvelvet]

I know the thread has kind of fizzled out, but I would greatly appreciate any more memories or general opinions on the grave (however vague) as I am studying the site as part of my degree. Many thanks!

[Ronijayne]

Who did use lead lined coffins in those days? Would that not narrow it down?

[Spike]

The Irish would have just been put in a big pit and buried, thats how it was done :PDT_Xtremez_12:

What was the church by St George's hall. was it St John's after the gardens? the gardens where a cemetery so could they be from there. I think this has been discussed before.

One thing not mentioned is that St Oswalds is a Catholic church, would the buried in the mass grave be Catholics? The church is older than the mass grave.

[hmtmaj]

I know the thread has kind of fizzled out, but I would greatly appreciate any more memories or general opinions on the grave (however vague) as I am studying the site as part of my degree. Many thanks!

Fortinian done a great job investigating, see previous page, maybe he can help you with your study :PDT11

[Waterways]

The Irish would have just been put in a big pit and buried, thats how it was done :PDT_Xtremez_12:

What was the church by St George's hall. was it St John's after the gardens? the gardens where a cemetery so could they be from there. I think this has been discussed before.


The church was demolished around 1899, after the burials. A number of French prisoners of war were buried there and a plaque is there to note that. The French embassy once a year have a ceremony in St. John's Gardens.

[wsteve55]

I think most,if not all of the bodies,remain in St. John's gardens!

[anonymouse]

I've just had a trawl through Ged's site www.inacityliving.piczo.com/ and came upon a pic of Grant Gardens, the site of the old Necropolis cemetery. It occurred to me that the gardens are now less than half the size they were originally, so what did they do with all the remains? Surely they must have been re-interred in consecrated ground - St. Oswalds maybe?

[wsteve55]

I've just had a trawl through Ged's site www.inacityliving.piczo.com/ and came upon a pic of Grant Gardens, the site of the old Necropolis cemetery. It occurred to me that the gardens are now less than half the size they were originally, so what did they do with all the remains? Surely they must have been re-interred in consecrated ground - St. Oswalds maybe?

Hi Anon,
this has been on here before,somewhere,but I can tell you that recent ground investigations, for the failed Merseytram scheme,in the area of Grant gardens,came across human remains! I suppose you can conclude from this,that though some bodies may have been moved,many weren't!This wasn't the only time so called sacred ground,was "landscaped" or built on,and the original back wall,is still there!:nod:

[fortinian]

Hmm... looking at the 1930s map on Leverpoole.co.uk and comparing it to modern Google Maps seems to show that Grand Gardens is on exactly the same floorplan as the Necropolis... i.e. it hasn't gotten any bigger or smaller.

[Ged]

I used to think it looked smaller now but I think you're right going by the original back wall too.

[fortinian]

Weird how our perceptions can be altered... I wonder if it's the same effect as what happens to Cadbury Creme Eggs every year?? :PDT_Piratz_26:

[ILuvIlDivo]

What a thoroughly interesting topic and a brilliant read!!! I've enjoyed going through it from beginning to end and look forward to popping back in for more. I imagine/hope that this one of those subjects where you 'researchers' must feel like a 'dog with a bone' (no pun intended, honest :) ) and won't 'let go' until you find some real answers.

Well I think you've all done a great job up to now, and would like to say a huge THANK YOU to everyone for their hard work.

Drinks all round to you!! ......http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/SueFitz77/Cute%20and%20Funny%20emotions/BEERSmiley.gif http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/SueFitz77/Cute%20and%20Funny%20emotions/BEERSmiley.gif http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/SueFitz77/Cute%20and%20Funny%20emotions/BEERSmiley.gif http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/SueFitz77/Cute%20and%20Funny%20emotions/BEERSmiley.gif

[Ged]

:PDT11

Miss missus loves IlDivo too.


:002:

[Samp]

Just to keep this thread alive, what happened to the bodies from St Peters Church, Church Street?

[ILuvIlDivo]

:PDT11

Miss missus loves IlDivo too.


:002:

Really? She must have great taste then http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/SueFitz77/Cute%20and%20Funny%20emotions/CUTEEYECLOSINGSMILE-1.gif

[fortinian]

Just to keep this thread alive, what happened to the bodies from St Peters Church, Church Street?

I believe they were removed to Anfield Cemetery.

[Ged]

Really? She must have great taste then http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/SueFitz77/Cute%20and%20Funny%20emotions/CUTEEYECLOSINGSMILE-1.gif


Of course she has. She married me didn't she :)

[ILuvIlDivo]

Of course she has. She married me didn't she :)

Haha ....I should have seen that one coming shouldn't I? .:rolleyes:

Getting swiftly back on topic ....

It's pretty obvious that no one realized the scale of how many bodies would be uncovered when they began the ground work on the school ....as quoted by K A Williams below


This discovery was simply beyond the boundary of that graveyard, extending much further than was realized - thousands more bodies.



But when those bodies WERE discovered, instead of quickly ordering a mass cremation of them all and then allowing a newspaper or two to give a brief explanation , which must have left so many people wondering ~ WHY wasn't more detailed information given out as a sign of respect for the dead & any of their possible families who may still be living????

If the coffins had nameplates on, then those names should have been shown for all to see. They probably wouldn't have meant much to most of us, but they may have meant a lot to any remaining families of the deceased. I think it would have also proved that there was no sort of 'cover up' in all of this and may have stopped all this unnecessary speculation and uncertainty.

The way it stands is so sad .... as no one knows the real truth behind all this and those people who died and were buried in this place have no name, meaning or record of existence :-(