Lost Liverpool

[Colin Wilkinson]

I have often tried to picture what Liverpool would be like if it had kept some of its finest buildings. Does it matter if buildings are lost? To quote William Morris: ‘It has been most truly said that these old buildings do not belong to us only: that they belonged to our forefathers and they will [...]

More... (http://streetsofliverpool.co.uk/lost-liverpool-1/)

[Ged]

I agree Colin.

See this thread here:

http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?2425-Lost-Liverpool-Buildings-Top-5&highlight=lost+buildings



.

[George]

When an antique is too far gone for restoration but we get it restored, it no longer becomes an antique.

Customs house was an antique.

[Ged]

It's just a pity that so many buildings of the past of outstanding architecture, the likes of which will never be built again, unless its green glass and steel, were allowed to succumb to rot and the iron ball. Athens and Rome kept theirs even if it were only ruins.

[Colin Wilkinson]

Hi George,
In that case the Albert Dock should have been turned into a car park as proposed in the 1970s. There are many other buildings - warehouses, churches etc. which have been imaginatively restored. Look at the Novas building on Parliament Street as just one recent example. The external fabric of The Custom House was sound enough and the building should have been saved. There was a campaign to save it, led by Peter Fleetwood-Hesketh, but in the immediate post-War years, the politicians were chasing a different vision of the future.

[Ged]

Correct Colin. St. Lukes was nearly lost to road widening scheme which saw the UAB/Dole building on Leece lost in the 80s. It didn't go ahead.

We also lost the Georgian terrace on the opposite side of Seymour street (to the one so greatly restored) - to the Shankland plan for road widening within the city centre - most of which didn't come off, including this part of it.

Even the St. Georges Hall was being left to wrack and ruin at one stage before restoration. If done sympathetically to the period the building is from, there's not a problem with restoration.

The original Exchange Flags and Cotton Exchange frontages were so ornamental.

[George]

I've said this elsewhere on Yo where the Customs house was brought up in the conversation,we have to draw a line somewhere in relation to the extent of the damage despite its external structure still standing after the war.

Internally it was completly none existant,what this means is what restoration that would have incurred wouldn't have been from the time it was built but modern materials used for the whole of the interior and that to me would have lost the buildings splendour of old.

I take it you have seen the buildings internal damage?

[Ged]

Internals wouldn't count for much in this day and age anyway though. Look at the met quarter utilising the old GPO with a complete new fit out into modern building regs etc. The lyceum in bold st was fitted out as a post office then cafe - the original interior not being fit for use for those purposes. Liverpool museum even isn't how it was built or intended back in the late 1800s. I'm all for keeping exteriors of outstanding architectural merit even if the interiors are 21st century glitz and glamour.

[H_Asbo]

I have a couple of photo's I took of Seymour Street from the mid 70's.

I was doing a photography A level course in Hugh Bairds in Bootle, and took a load of mid 70's images, many where from the Docks, we had a special pass and had access to all areas! Bet you can't get that pass now!

I got a few photo's of the old tennies too Ged.

Also a set that I KNOW won't interest you! Liverpools European Cup Parade from 77 :P

[H_Asbo]

Ohh just remembered!

Got a very early photo of West Derby Village looking towards the Church from the main bus route to town.

It was a Glass plate that a mate found in a house clearence, so I did a pic from it, its got to be 1920's or earlier, theres just one car in the picture and its a Laurel and Hardy type Car!

[Ged]

Great stuff H, post em' up. Funnily enough I was at that parade and proof can be seen on this page of my site. Yo's very own gregs dad capturing me and my mate - both blues - on the Byrom st walkway as the open top bus passed underneath. Then we legged it, well struggled through the crowds in William Brown st to see the team come out with the cups - almost the treble of course. I was there in 74 too and in 73 I held the UEFA vase in the Walker Art Gallery while meeting Keegan and Shankly. I was 11 and my dad worked there so got me in during the evening.

http://inacityliving.piczo.com/?g=27070860&cr=7 (scroll to the bottom - i'm a closet red :) )

[H_Asbo]

I dunno how to post them Ged, thats why I've never done it.

I have a scanner so theres no problem getting scans done.

Unfortunately we wasn't allowed to keep the negatives from the collage, so all I have are my presentation photo's and a few others I kept that were 'contenders'.

I have a great photo of a notice though from the docks!

Its dated during the war mid 40's about 43 I think, and its about the Dockers threatening a strike!

Which I only took because of the curio factor. 1st it was STILL up in the middle of the dockland after 30 odd years, and 2nd I didn't know strikes was legal during war time.

Just imagine Ged, I went into collage, the tutor gave me that latest camera and a pass to all areas of the Docks, and I could spend all day just wandering around taking photo's, as long as I got back in time to develope them.

I didn't know how lucky I was, I can honestly tell you.

[George]

I dunno how to post them Ged, thats why I've never done it.

You'll have all the women laughing at you now. :)

[H_Asbo]

Ta George :)

But maybe my A level Photography will balance it out :)

As the chat went in the She Club.

I'm a Nurse what do you do?

I'm doing photography, let me take you home and see what developes

[Colin Wilkinson]

The interior was not the strong part of the building - by all accounts it was pretty gloomy inside due to the lack of windows. As the restoration of the Reichstag by Norman Foster proves - there is no problem incorporating a contemporary style into a knackered old building. The Custom House should have been seen as a symbol of Liverpool's greatness not as an eyesore. OK - Norman Foster was working in a totally different political and economic climate - but there were plenty of talented architects back in the 1950s who could have handled the restoration.

[Ged]

H. Imagine being told to hand your pics in these days, you could store them to your pc first in seconds ;)

Try this for uploading, it must be easy as I can use it.

http://imageshack.us/?no_multi=1

Just choose the pic you want to upload from your pc and click on upload.

A thumbnail of the pic you've chosen will appear when it's done. Just copy and paste the jargon in the 3rd box down under it into your message on the forum.


I've had a wander down the docks - river side. It looks like a few others have too including Gregs Dad - you can go right up to the dockers clock - Victoria Tower and right up to the waters edge. If one of the gates isn't already open on the dock road, there is another way in. I've never been stopped and it's not area 51 so doubt you'd get arrested.

[H_Asbo]

We was in the sheds with the dockers and under the cranes as they unloaded cargo Ged, not just in touristy spots, although there was none then :)

There used to be coppers on the gates back then.

Thats why we needed the pass I guess? Workers only areas?

I'll do that ASAP, all my old arty farty stuffs in the loft back home, so its explore there and do the scans before I can upload anything.

[Ged]

It reminds me that I must dig out some of my old CSE artwork. It's in a suitcase in the shed ha ha.

No, it's not touristy where I mean either, it's clandestine :noid:

But I get your drift, it must've been great down there right in amongst it all.

[George]

Talking about the docks....

A bloke was in his car with his girlfriend from wigan and she turned round to him and said....

Kiss me where its dirty...so he took her to Liverpool docks. :-)

[Kev]

Cheers Colin. Here are some more helpful Lost Liverpool threads on Yo! Liverpool

Liverpool Old Dock and Custom House (http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?2723-Liverpool-Old-Dock-and-Custom-House&highlight=customs)

Lost Mansions of Liverpool (http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?8040-Lost-Mansions-of-Liverpool&highlight=lost+liverpool)

Lost Liverpool Suburbs & Districts (http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?24790-Lost-Liverpool-Suburbs-Districts&highlight=lost+liverpool)

The Moorish Arch Chatsworth Street, Edge Hill, Liverpool (http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?19396-The-Moorish-Arch-Chatsworth-Street-Edge-Hill-Liverpool&highlight=moorish+arch)


(http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?2723-Liverpool-Old-Dock-and-Custom-House&highlight=customs)

[Kev]

Ooops, nearly forgot:

Goree Piazzas Warehousing The Strand Area (http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?10871-Goree-Piazzas-Warehousing-The-Strand-Area&highlight=Goree+Piazzas)

[Colin Wilkinson]

Thanks Kev. West Dingle is on my list. A very fine house demolished in the 1960s (need to check the date - unless you have it). I'm a bit ambivalent about some of the mansions. Most of the outer areas was carved up by the wealthy for their 'country estates'. Meantime, Liverpool was the most overcrowded city in the country. Something had to give.

[ChrisGeorge]

When an antique is too far gone for restoration but we get it restored, it no longer becomes an antique.

Customs house was an antique.

This might be too narrow a view. Any building or ship, anything out in the elements needs restoration work. Do you think HMS Victory in Portsmouth is the same ship that was launched in 1765? It isn't. Nor is USS Constellation in Boston harbor the same ship that was launched in 1797. Nor are Westminster Abbey or St. Paul's Cathedral the same buildings they were even a hundred years ago, not in the polluted atmosphere of London. I remember walking through the graveyard of St. Paul's some years ago and seeing all the disfigured marble statuary that had been brought down from the facade in order to be replaced. That's what restoration is all about. Still these things are national treasures, though they are technically not the same as they were before. It's impossible for them to be the same "antiques" they once were if we are to keep them.

Chris

[Ged]

Thanks Kev. West Dingle is on my list. A very fine house demolished in the 1960s (need to check the date - unless you have it). I'm a bit ambivalent about some of the mansions. Most of the outer areas was carved up by the wealthy for their 'country estates'. Meantime, Liverpool was the most overcrowded city in the country. Something had to give.

Colin, just checked one of your very own Bluecoat press publications. 'A tram ride to Dingle' where it is mentioned that West Dingle was demolished between 1955-60.

[Colin Wilkinson]

Following on from yesterday, my next choice is a building that has got progressively worse each time it has been rebuilt:8 Exchange Buildings. The smaller photograph (taken in 1860) is a view of James Wyatt’s elegant building (1803-9), in perfect sympathy with the Town Hall (for which he was partly responsible). Tastes changed and, in [...]

More... (http://streetsofliverpool.co.uk/lost-liverpool-2/)

[Kev]

Thanks Colin, just thought I'd add:

1) Liverpool Cotton Exchange LAW030.jpg LRO

[Spike]

These are great pics Kev..Cheers mate.

[wsteve55]

Great pic's Colin,and Kev'! It's hard to believe, they saw fit to demolish 2 Exchange buildings,which both look more remarkable,than the present version!As for the cotton exchange being modernised......they should have been shot!!!

[ItsaZappathing]

Cracker pics folks!!!

[Colin Wilkinson]

Thanks for the pic Kev. I have got the original press pic of it which states on the reverse

Liverpool Cotton Future Market Closes (1st April 1941).

Mr V.S.S. Hannay, President othe Liverpool Cotton Association announcing the decision to close the Liverpool Cotton Futures Markets to the members in the Exchange today, following the Government order stabilising cotton prices, after the bell rung for the last time.

[Colin Wilkinson]

Just a brief post to add some missing images of lost buildings. The photographs supplement the previous posts and give a better idea of why I have included these buildings in my blog. They areCanada Dock hydraulic tower (photographed 1875)Kent Square c1935Goree and Overhead Railway 1947Cotton Exchange 1907

More... (http://streetsofliverpool.co.uk/lost-liverpool/)

[Davec]

Really look forward to your posts Colin, one of the highlights of the day.

[pablo42]

Really look forward to your posts Colin, one of the highlights of the day.

I agree with that Davec.

[dazza]

Great images Colin. I have both My Liverpool & Liverpool Charachters and Streets and I'm sure your website will be a valuable resource to everyone.

The Sailor's Home photograph. The building shown to the left of it [on the site of the 4th Custom House] echoes the previous building. It has five prominent arched windows, a scaling up of what was there before, although without the stepped facade.

[Kev]

Thanks Colin, I don't think I've seen the Canada Dock hydraulic tower, what a gem, why did they know down these wonderful buildings!!!!! The Goree shows it from a new angle.

Keep 'em coming!

Kev :PDT_Piratz_26:

[Kev]

Another Goree view: LRO

[Colin Wilkinson]

My ’Lost Liverpool’ has created quite a bit of interest and, in particular, incredulity that so many fine buildings have been demolished over the last sixty years.  However, Liverpool has been luckier than most cities. Newcastle, Manchester, Glasgow and Bath suffered wholesale destruction (remember T. Dan Smith and the wilful destruction of Eldon Square in Newcastle). Cities [...]

More... (http://streetsofliverpool.co.uk/lost-liverpool-3/)

[hmtmaj]

Fantastic stuff Colin, Thanks :handclap:

[dazza]

Thanks Colin great images.

I've posted some updates for the 'West Dingle' photograph on your site.

[Colin Wilkinson]

Thanks Dazza - that is really helpful. I have a few lantern slides taken by N. Stephens of this area of the Dingle - along with a few of Matthew Arnold, the poet and essayist, who lived at Dingle Bank (and who died while walking along Dingle Lane in 1888).

[Colin Wilkinson]

Hi hmtmaj. I made a film in 1975 of the Old Swan Community Festival. It did a bit of a tour with the British Council and a copy was donated to Liverpool Record Office. It was a lot of street theatre and activities for children. Might be worth digging out. Who knows - you might be on it.

[dazza]

This might be too narrow a view. Any building or ship, anything out in the elements needs restoration work. Do you think HMS Victory in Portsmouth is the same ship that was launched in 1765? It isn't. Nor is USS Constellation in Boston harbor the same ship that was launched in 1797. Nor are Westminster Abbey or St. Paul's Cathedral the same buildings they were even a hundred years ago, not in the polluted atmosphere of London.ChrisHi Chris,

What's that saying about Grandpa's old axe? Despite having three new handles and two new heads. It's still Grandpa's axe. The same also with the Athenian Parthenon, there's an ongoing program to replace all the erroded Pentelic marble, in order to protect the rest of the structure. Time is an significant factor in all of this - today we see an illusory finished object, when in reality, the actual fabric and design may have changed many times over it's history? John Donne's "No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main" I think, can also be applied to buildings as well. All have a relationship with the patterns of the past. This is what I find fascinating about old buildings.

Cheers,
Daz

[dazza]

Thanks Dazza - that is really helpful. I have a few lantern slides taken by N. Stephens of this area of the Dingle - along with a few of Matthew Arnold, the poet and essayist, who lived at Dingle Bank (and who died while walking along Dingle Lane in 1888).Hi Colin - new Dingle images, fantastic. I'd love to see those. Are you planning to upload them on to your site at some stage? My 3xgrandfather was a tenant farmer to Joseph Brooks Yates, and lived at Dingle Farm. He was responsible for farming the fields either side of The Dingle.

[ChrisGeorge]

Thanks Dazza - that is really helpful. I have a few lantern slides taken by N. Stephens of this area of the Dingle - along with a few of Matthew Arnold, the poet and essayist, who lived at Dingle Bank (and who died while walking along Dingle Lane in 1888).

That's an interesting bit of trivia about Matthew Arnold dying while walking in Dingle Lane in 1888! His most famous poem is probably "Dover Beach" (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/arnold/writings/doverbeach.html) and it's fascinating to know that his final moments occurred at a place much closer to home! As does Dazza I look forward to seeing those old images. Thanks again.

Chris

[Ged]

Colin/Chris. As far as i'm aware - through the book 'A tram ride to Dingle' Matthew Arnold never lived in Liverpool, but visited his sister Mrs Susan Cropper. Which is the correct version please?

[Colin Wilkinson]

Sorry, you are right Ged - by lived in the Dingle, I meant he spent considerable periods of time there - staying at his sister's house. At the time, he had a formidable reputation, although he is, like many eminent Victorians, less well known now.

[hmtmaj]

Hi hmtmaj. I made a film in 1975 of the Old Swan Community Festival. It did a bit of a tour with the British Council and a copy was donated to Liverpool Record Office. It was a lot of street theatre and activities for children. Might be worth digging out. Who knows - you might be on it.

Hi Colin, I have PM'd you.
Thanks for the info above, Martin

[Colin Wilkinson]

Just done a bit of Googling on Matthew Arnold, Apparently he had arrived in Liverpool the day before (Saturday) and was in high spirits, vaulting over a fence to show his fitness. The following day, after church, he collapsed from a heart attack on the walk home. A nearby doctor was called who, after pouring spirits down his throat (why not!) pronounced him dead. Apparently his grandfather and father (the famous Thomas Arnold, headmaster of Rugby School) had both died prematurely from angina.
Here again is one of those strands. Charles Melly (of Liverpool Olympics fame) was also at Rugby School as was the famous Liverpool poet Arthur Hugh Clough. In fact Clough, who was four years his junior, became best friend of Arnold. Clough's sister Anne was one of the early feminists, assisting Florence Nightingale and later becoming Principal of Newnham College, Cambridge (there is a ceramic plaque outside the Clough's house at 11 Rodney Street).

[Ged]

And the moral of the story is: Don't go showing off vaulting over fences :)

[H_Asbo]

Its a symptom I believe, many people who are going to get an attack get a sudden rush of 'strength or well being' shortly before it.

My Nan was dancing around the day before she got hers saying how wonderful she felt, and next day it was all over.

The doctor who attended said its quite common, oh and Nan had hardly moved from her chair in bleedin years before that.

[Ron Ham]

:sad:Thanks for that info H-asbo , my wife has just said I cant knock any more trees down for firewood, she's going to get a heat pump installed , probably a wise move ! Ron

[ChrisGeorge]

Just done a bit of Googling on Matthew Arnold, Apparently he had arrived in Liverpool the day before (Saturday) and was in high spirits, vaulting over a fence to show his fitness. The following day, after church, he collapsed from a heart attack on the walk home. A nearby doctor was called who, after pouring spirits down his throat (why not!) pronounced him dead. Apparently his grandfather and father (the famous Thomas Arnold, headmaster of Rugby School) had both died prematurely from angina.
Here again is one of those strands. Charles Melly (of Liverpool Olympics fame) was also at Rugby School as was the famous Liverpool poet Arthur Hugh Clough. In fact Clough, who was four years his junior, became best friend of Arnold. Clough's sister Anne was one of the early feminists, assisting Florence Nightingale and later becoming Principal of Newnham College, Cambridge (there is a ceramic plaque outside the Clough's house at 11 Rodney Street).

Hi Colin

Whether Wikipedia has it right I don't know -- as we know anybody, informed or uninformed can contribute to Wiki -- but the story that appears on the Matthew Arnold Wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Arnold) reads:

"Arnold died suddenly in 1888 of heart failure, when running to meet a tram that would have taken him to the Liverpool Landing Stage to see his daughter, who was visiting from the United States where she had moved after marrying an American."

Chris

[Colin Wilkinson]

In starting this thread about Lost Liverpool, I was concerned with those buildings that would have enhanced today’s city had they survived. The underlying criterion is that of architectural merit but that would probably not apply to Liverpool Overhead Railway, which was not a particularly beautiful structure. In the case of other inclusions, such as [...]

More... (http://streetsofliverpool.co.uk/lost-liverpool-4/)

[Debra]

Thanks Colin ..

[pablo42]

Nice one Colin.

[M6AJJ]

Colin,

I really look forward to your entries, many thanks.

Tony

[dazza]

Thanks Colin, The court photograph is amazing. The warehouse dominating the end of the street. The gas lamp. The puddle from the central drain reflecting the building above it. The family scene.

[Quentin_Sharples]

Was the location of the court identified?

This particular example was rather rare as there usually wasn't so much space in the middle of courts.

[Samp]

Here is a photo of a court from the early 60's The man in the raincoat is the local ministe, Rev Hill who was also the missioner of the Shrewsbury Boys Club, which used to be in Portland Place, Everton. At the top of the picture can be seen another court at right angles to the one in the picture. This picture has already been posted elsewhere on Yo. The top court was located at the top of Prince Edwin St. in Everton. The court in the picture was behind the houses at the top right hand side of Prince Edwin St.

[George]

Looks like the rent man to me,notice all the women outside ready for an earwig when she goes in.

[Colin Wilkinson]

Sorry - no identification on the photo. Any ideas? I have collected quite a number of City Engineer's photos of courts - but this is by Karl Hughes and he did not put any identification on any of his negatves.

[dazza]

Colin are there any numbers on the plates, any sequence might help to identify the area?

[Colin Wilkinson]

Hi Dazza - they are not plates - just medium format negs with no info. My guess is around Great Howard Street - but I could be way out.

[dazza]

Hi Dazza - they are not plates - just medium format negs with no info. My guess is around Great Howard Street - but I could be way out.

Hi Colin,

I could be wrong on this. But it could have been taken from Saltney Street looking through the court towards Dublin Street [where the warehouse is shown]. A couple of observations:

1. The court pavement extends to the road in the foreground. The stairs on the side wall suggest a room over partially enclosing the court at 1st. floor level, with a full court width passage beneath.
2. The warehouse in the background is in shadow, which could suggest a north aspect. The shadow in the court would be an an moring sun, if this is the right court?
3. Saltney Street and Dublin Street are both off Great Howard Street.
4. The lamp standard in front of the warehouse is on the side of the courts, but some way in front, enough space for additional housing.
5. The housing to Dublin Street, at least this section would need to be demolished to support this view?

See map below. The large scale map extract [OS 1906] has been flipped upside down to match the orientation of the photo.

Regards,

Daz

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab174/dal8077/Court.jpg

[Colin Wilkinson]

Hi Daz,

Dublin Street was my first thought but I did not want to be too specific because it could well be the wrong place.

[Kev]

Hi Colin,

I've posted a thread today with vaious images of the courts and living conditions:

http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?27414-Old-Liverpool-Court-Dwellings-Showing-Living-Conditions-Maps-Future-PLans&p=232209

[Kev]

and images from Frederick Street/ Upper, inludes interior view of the wash house: http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?27415-Frederick-Street-Old-Liverpool-Named-after-Frederick-Louis-Duke-of-Edinburgh&p=232212

[wsteve55]

There is one remnant of "court" housing,off Duke st,which lay derelict for years,but has now been modernised,and incorporated into a larger scheme! There's a modern plaque attached to the wall,with some relevant history.

[dazza]

Dublin Street was my first thought but I did not want to be too specific because it could well be the wrong place.

I know, it's impossible to be certain. And in a way, not fixing the location makes it representative of most dockside areas around Liverpool.

[skgogosfan]

I have a couple of photo's I took of Seymour Street from the mid 70's.

I was doing a photography A level course in Hugh Bairds in Bootle, and took a load of mid 70's images, many where from the Docks, we had a special pass and had access to all areas! Bet you can't get that pass now!

I got a few photo's of the old tennies too Ged.

Also a set that I KNOW won't interest you! Liverpools European Cup Parade from 77 :P

Did you ever manage to upload those pix? I'd like to see the Seymour St ones.

Dave.