The Vines, Lime St-Tunnels

[MissInformed]

Hi
I was just reading in Freddy o connor's book, A Pub on Every Corner, that there are underground passages under the vines in lime st that lead to the mersey, supposedly used for smuggling.
It says they are one of many in pubs around Liverpool....any ideas where the others are??

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi
I was just reading in Freddy o connor's book, A Pub on Every Corner, that there are underground passages under the vines in lime st that lead to the mersey, supposedly used for smuggling.
It says they are one of many in pubs around Liverpool....any ideas where the others are??

Hello MissInformed

These rumors of smugglers tunnels seem to be just that, local legend and lore, like the smugglers tunnels that were said to extend from Mother Redcap's at Egremont under Wallasey to the Red Noses near New Brighton. As with the distance between Lime Street and the Mersey, these are both considerable distances, so my hunch is that such tunnels never existed.

Chris

[PhilipG]

And of course, Lime Street was at the edge of town in the early days.

[theninesisters]

Been down under the Vines a few years ago, they're all blocked up now although they did once go through town down to the Docks. We had a good nose around but there wasn't a sniff of anything we could accidently knock down to gain access to more tunnels.
:disgust: :)

[MissInformed]

wow! fantastic pics jona!!!!!!!

thank you for proving me right!!!:celb (23):

[Kev]

Yes fantastic snaps, exciting stuff :PDT_Piratz_26:

[Waterways]

Been down under the Vines a few years ago, they're all blocked up now although they did once go through town down to the Docks. We had a good nose around but there wasn't a sniff of anything we could accidently knock down to gain access to more tunnels.
:disgust: :)

I don't believe they went to the docks at all. It is too far. If they did where would they emerge at the docks, in the docks estate? The docks were built on wooden piles into the river. It was more like they were storage tunnels - a part of the cellar.

[MissInformed]

if they didn't go to the docks, what would they be for guys?

i know alot of people think smuggling is a big myth, but I am a bit baffled as to what other uses would be.... any thoughts?

oh...and are there any others under pubs like this??

[Waterways]

if they didn't go to the docks, what would they be for guys?

i know alot of people think smuggling is a big myth, but I am a bit baffled as to what other uses would be.... any thoughts?


Forget tunnels to the docks.

[PhilipG]

if they didn't go to the docks, what would they be for guys?

i know alot of people think smuggling is a big myth, but I am a bit baffled as to what other uses would be.... any thoughts?

oh...and are there any others under pubs like this??

Cellars.

[ChrisGeorge]

if they didn't go to the docks, what would they be for guys?

i know alot of people think smuggling is a big myth, but I am a bit baffled as to what other uses would be.... any thoughts?

oh...and are there any others under pubs like this??

Cellars or storage. Too far to reach the docks, and as Waterways said, where did the tunnels come out?

[MissInformed]

but....just because we don't know about these things, doesn't mean they don't exist guys.....:celb (23): :celb (23):

[Kev]

That's why is so interesting and intriguing :)

[theninesisters]

When I last went, the only 'recent' addition was a bricked up wall - but we're talking possibly of about 100 years ago. We took a brick out and looked through and it was filled with rubble in a slope. It would indicate steps of some sort leading down but this appeared to be in the direction of Renshaw street rather than directly towards the River. Though it may have adjoined a set of tunnels at another point in which access to the River could have been gained.

[ChrisGeorge]

When I last went, the only 'recent' addition was a bricked up wall - but we're talking possibly of about 100 years ago. We took a brick out and looked through and it was filled with rubble in a slope. It would indicate steps of some sort leading down but this appeared to be in the direction of Renshaw street rather than directly towards the River. Though it may have adjoined a set of tunnels at another point in which access to the River could have been gained.

Okay, but you can't assume they connect to the river if you don't have proof that they did. You can't assume that they were used by smugglers without the proof that they were so used either.

Chris

[PhilipG]

Hi
I was just reading in Freddy o connor's book, A Pub on Every Corner, that there are underground passages under the vines in lime st that lead to the mersey, supposedly used for smuggling.
It says they are one of many in pubs around Liverpool....any ideas where the others are??

I've got all 4 volumes of "A Pub on Every Corner".
The City Centre is Volume 1, but what page should I go to?

[theninesisters]

You can't assume that they were used by smugglers without the proof that they were so used either.

I've never once mentioned anything about smugglers in any of my postings on this. :)

[ChrisGeorge]

I've never once mentioned anything about smugglers in any of my postings on this. :)

Hello Jona76

Yes okay, thanks for clarifying. It was MissInformed who brought up the fact that Freddy O'Connor claims the tunnels were used for smuggling, and that the tunnels connected with the river.

Chris

[snappel]

I heard there was a tunnel from the Adelphi to the docks for rich travellers to use. Sounds a bit far-fetched though...

[PhilipG]

I heard there was a tunnel from the Adelphi to the docks for rich travellers to use. Sounds a bit far-fetched though...

I don't think the rich travellers would have appreciated being taken by tunnel to the Adelphi. :)
Riverside Station was built for them, and they would have been transported by cabs or carriages through the streets.

[MissInformed]

I've got all 4 volumes of "A Pub on Every Corner".
The City Centre is Volume 1, but what page should I go to?


hi philip
it's on page 45 of the city centre volume.

"In common with other pubs of the town, the cellars had passages leading down towards the River Mersey, reputedly used for smuggling..." (p45, a pub on every corner volume 1, by freddy o' connor)

Glad to see my little topic sparking discussiion!!!

[PhilipG]

hi philip
it's on page 45 of the city centre volume.

"In common with other pubs of the town, the cellars had passages leading down towards the River Mersey, reputedly used for smuggling..." (p45, a pub on every corner volume 1, by freddy o' connor)

Glad to see my little topic sparking discussiion!!!

Thanks for that.
Did you see Chris's view of Freddy O'Connor?
Having written a book myself, I wouldn't comment on another author, for fear I'd get my book criticised. :)

[MissInformed]

Hi Philip
I did read Chris' view....each to their own view, but in my personal view, I think Freddy O Connor has done great things for this city with his work, and hope he continues to do so!

what is your book called again?

[ChrisGeorge]

hi philip
it's on page 45 of the city centre volume.

"In common with other pubs of the town, the cellars had passages leading down towards the River Mersey, reputedly used for smuggling..." (p45, a pub on every corner volume 1, by freddy o' connor)

Glad to see my little topic sparking discussiion!!!

Hi MissInformed

I don't have Freddy O'Connor's series of books on Liverpool pubs. I do have his Liverpool Our City Our Heritage published in 1990, which has a lot in it about pubs as well although I have not noticed this particular story in it. By the way, I am an author myself, of a War of 1812 history book, and while as does Philip, I do honor anyone who can put out a book -- and there is no doubt Mr O'Connor's books have much interest -- I do think unsubstantiated statements made about history need to be challenged. There are facts and there are half truths and there are legends. Unfortunately a lot of reported history is not true and is just plain myth, so I am a bit surprised that Mr. O'Connor would buy the story that tunnels ran from the Vines and other Liverpool pubs to the Mersey for purposes of smuggling without proof that such tunnels did in fact stretch from those pubs to the river.

Chris

[MissInformed]

Hi Chris
I do understand what you are saying, yet, I think Freddy has shirked his belief in the tunnels by using the word 'reputedly'.
These tunnels may not lead to the river, but there are tunnels (as proven by jona), and I am pleased I put up this thread now, as I didn't know this time yesterday that ANY tunnels existed under the Vines!!:celb (23):

[PhilipG]

Hi Philip
I did read Chris' view....each to their own view, but in my personal view, I think Freddy O Connor has done great things for this city with his work, and hope he continues to do so!

what is your book called again?

A Tram Ride to Dingle.

[MissInformed]

That is one of mine and my boyfriends fave books Philip!

It is the most referred to one in our house!

Have you written any more?

[theninesisters]

so I am a bit surprised that Mr. O'Connor would buy the story that tunnels ran from the Vines and other Liverpool pubs to the Mersey for purposes of smuggling without proof that such tunnels did in fact stretch from those pubs to the river.

I've known Freddie for about 6 years as he's a fellow committee member of the Williamson Tunnels and he knows his stuff. While I can't comment on what he wrote was fact or not, I do know that when visiting the place, it wasn't just a single tunnel or cellar system - it was huge with passages going off in all directions. Underground is easily as big as the footprint of the building and there were many arches and doors that were all explored. Although I do not know whether these ever led anywhere, it was a maze down there and it had to be used for something rather than an elaborate cellar system for a pub. I'll see if the same contact is there as we used last and try and get another visit and make a good plan of the system.

[MissInformed]

Thanks Jona.
Let us know! Keep us updated.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Jona76:

Okay, thank you, Jona76, that would be useful. Obviously, I don't mind any author making a statement if it's true. But if an author of a history book makes a statement that is not backed up it deserves to be challenged. That's the nature of historical enquiry, the way we get at the truth of what actually happened in the past.

Now, I have no doubt Mr. O'Connor knows about the physical pubs that are still there and that have now gone and no doubt that you are right that there are passages below the Vines. The question is whether they actually did go down to the River and whether they were, as Mr. O'Connor claims, used for smuggling.

Thanks

Chris

[MissInformed]

Hi Chris
I don't think Freddy actually 'claimed' the tunnels went down to the river. He didn't say 'I think' or 'they do' he said 'reputedly'.
I think he was just voicing what other people thought or a story he had heard.
Also, the books were published around ten years ago, alot of new research and exploration have gone on since then. I think we should get Freddy on here!!!!!!!

[PhilipG]

That is one of mine and my boyfriends fave books Philip!

It is the most referred to one in our house!

Have you written any more?

Thank you very much, MissInformed.

The other one was called "Southport: in old Picture Postcards".
I still want to write the definitive history of Liverpool's early cinemas.

BTW, I love the way your nickname can be taken two entirely different ways.
1. An informed young lady.
2. A misinformed young lady.
Which one would go with?

[MissInformed]

Thank you very much, MissInformed.

The other one was called "Southport: in old Picture Postcards".
I still want to write the definitive history of Liverpool's early cinemas.

BTW, I love the way your nickname can be taken two entirely different ways.
1. An informed young lady.
2. A misinformed young lady.
Which one would go with?

Thanks Philip! It depends which day you catch me on, as to which one I would go with! :)

I think you should go for it, and write the book! We can never have enough Liverpool books! (me and my boyfriend are actually looking through 'dream palaces of liverpool' at the moment! trying to find out where the Grand Cinema on Smithdown Road was actually located! any ideas?)

[PhilipG]

Thanks Philip! It depends which day you catch me on, as to which one I would go with! :)

I think you should go for it, and write the book! We can never have enough Liverpool books! (me and my boyfriend are actually looking through 'dream palaces of liverpool' at the moment! trying to find out where the Grand Cinema on Smithdown Road was actually located! any ideas?)

After the Grand was demolished the Grand Filling Station opened on the site in 1963.
It is now called Penny Lane Motors.

[MissInformed]

many thanks philip
really appreciate that! do you know if there are any pics of the sefton park picturedrome?

[shytalk]

Opposite what was the Blue Star garage on Smithdown Rd. there used to be a do-it-yourself shop.
There is a horses head on the front of the building, I don't know if it is still there but I was told years ago the the building started life as a cinema.
Goes anyone know anything about this?.

[PhilipG]

Opposite what was the Blue Star garage on Smithdown Rd. there used to be a do-it-yourself shop.
There is a horses head on the front of the building, I don't know if it is still there but I was told years ago the the building started life as a cinema.
Goes anyone know anything about this?.

Yes, that is the Sefton Picturedrome.
The building is still there.
I'll put it in the "Some Liverpool Cinemas" thread tomorrow.

[shytalk]

Ta PhillipG I often wondered about that, must have had a small seating capacity, I don't know when it closed as a cinema but I moved to that area in 1949 and it was a DIY shop then as far as I remember.:037:

[PhilipG]

Ta PhillipG I often wondered about that, must have had a small seating capacity, I don't know when it closed as a cinema but I moved to that area in 1949 and it was a DIY shop then as far as I remember.:037:

Yes, it must be one of the oldest businesses in Liverpool.
It's still going, but it needs rather a lot of DIY itself now.
It's looking rather sad.

[MissInformed]

Went past it yesterday, and there is a scaffolding tower around the building, so it looks as if it is having a makeover!

[ainsworth2k7]

hi well i lived in the pub for 11 years and it seems that there are tunnels in the top cellar in the vines..the tunnel on the right rund up to the adelphi and the other two link together and go west..but i dont know where to as they are blocked off. they are rumoured to go to the albert dock etc but this wouldnt surpise me. also the reason why they have them tunnels is because the vines has an exceptionally large cellar one of the biggest if not the biggest in the city centre and it was used for most pubs to collect their alcohol. for example a large amount would be delivered to the vines and various pub owners would have to collect this and roll the barrels back to their place. just thought ud like to know ask me anythin else if you'd like to know

aaron ainsworth

[snappel]

Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing that. It's annoying that so little documentation seems to exist about stuff like this. There are so many rumours and stories of tunnels, plus blocked of passages like these ones and the ones at Baltic Fleet. I'm guessing those who knew where they went are long since dead...

[adhiggins]

There are tunnels under the pub I live above (The Bears Paw in Edge Hill) although these are more than likely part of Williamsons, Ive actually seen the branch which goes off from the cellar, but its all filled in atm, Ive heard rumours though from a number of local sources, that the tunnels go right down to at least Lewis's, someone I know claims to have accessed them from a tomb in St Marys graveyard over the road, and came out near Lewis's, Liverpool was a MAJOR port so smuggling operations would have been huge. Ive been reading Haunted Liverpool tonight, and Tom Slemen makes reference to tunnels beneath Renshaw Street under Grand Central? Anyone any information on this?


Cheers,



Andrew

[Waterways]

Take no notice of Slemen, he makes thing up. The Williamson's Tunnels' do go a long way. I doubt to Lewis'. There are vast caverns at Copperas Hill from the old copper mines - copperas give the game away. They have been sealed up. Williamson's may have broken into the old copper mine tunnels and caverns.

If they do go that far they could put a underground Merseyrail line down there with the odd station, and then at last the tunnels would be used for something useful.

Smuggling? That far from the port? Nah!

[Davec]

My dear auld Ma used to work in the Pig & Whistle many years ago and I remember her telling me that the pub's cellar used to flood out at high tide.
Mind you being that close to the river it shouldn't be a surprise, but I got the impression the flooding served a 'purpose'.

[Waterways]

My dear auld Ma used to work in the Pig & Whistle many years ago and I remember her telling me that the pub's cellar used to flood out at high tide.
Mind you being that close to the river it shouldn't be a surprise, but I got the impression the flooding served a 'purpose'.

On Chapel Street that would be the old drainage tunnels. They emptied directly into the river. I am not sure if sewage was put down them as well. Which I'm sure it was.

Sewage was emptied directly into the river until the Sandon Dock sewage plant was built in the 1980s

Many houses in Birkenhead had their cellars fill on high Spring tides.

[fortinian]

There are tunnels under the pub I live above (The Bears Paw in Edge Hill) although these are more than likely part of Williamsons, Ive actually seen the branch which goes off from the cellar, but its all filled in atm, Ive heard rumours though from a number of local sources, that the tunnels go right down to at least Lewis's, someone I know claims to have accessed them from a tomb in St Marys graveyard over the road, and came out near Lewis's, Liverpool was a MAJOR port so smuggling operations would have been huge. Ive been reading Haunted Liverpool tonight, and Tom Slemen makes reference to tunnels beneath Renshaw Street under Grand Central? Anyone any information on this?


Cheers,



Andrew

Smuggling never really happened in Liverpool during the 19th century. The Wirral with its many tidal inlets and relatively undeveloped hinterland was the ideal spot for smuggling from Liverpool bay. Smuggling was unlikely to use tunnels anyway, much easier for a small boat to run ashore at dusk deliver the cargo to a suitable inn (say Mother Red Cap's) and then scarper in the darkness of night. Another factor is discounting smugglers tunnels is that the Mersey coast is mainly sand-slacks, tunnels you would expect to be dug through cliff-faces not through half a mile of sandy beach.

The Liverpool side (around the city) was far too developed with too many keen customs men and pilot boats on the river. From the end of the Napoleonic Wars (1815) britain introduced a coastguard and blockademen who effectively cauterized smuggling in everywhere bar the most rural areas.

[kevin]

Yes, that is the Sefton Picturedrome.
The building is still there.
I'll put it in the "Some Liverpool Cinemas" thread tomorrow.

Is my memory playing tricks, or was there a workshop making rocking horses down the side of that building?

[Ged]

There are tunnels under the pub I live above (The Bears Paw in Edge Hill) although these are more than likely part of Williamsons, Ive actually seen the branch which goes off from the cellar, but its all filled in atm, Ive heard rumours though from a number of local sources, that the tunnels go right down to at least Lewis's, someone I know claims to have accessed them from a tomb in St Marys graveyard over the road, and came out near Lewis's, Liverpool was a MAJOR port so smuggling operations would have been huge. Ive been reading Haunted Liverpool tonight, and Tom Slemen makes reference to tunnels beneath Renshaw Street under Grand Central? Anyone any information on this?


Cheers,


Andrew



Renshaw St tunnels discussed here but sadly no proof or pics.

http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2385&highlight=renshaw+street+tunnels

[Doctor Frick]

I recently carried out a building survey in the cellar of the vines and can assure you that i saw no signs of tunnels or where they had been blocked up.

[Ged]

I think many have over zealous and colourful imaginations when it comes to tunnels going for miles and miles, smugglers, secret passages, hideaways etc. Most pubs will have a cellar, some with arched wine coolers etc but that's all they'll be.

[fortinian]

I think many have over zealous and colourful imaginations when it comes to tunnels going for miles and miles, smugglers, secret passages, hideaways etc. Most pubs will have a cellar, some with arched wine coolers etc but that's all they'll be.

I think you may be right Ged. People often forget just how difficult it is to tunnel and how often old cellars can be forgotten about - even when the buildings above them have been demolished they can still remain for years.

There is also the possibility in many victorian buildings of finding 'blind arches'. They may look like filled in passageways to the casual observer but most of the time they are just architectual features or a way of spreading weight over a larger area, especially if the ground underneath is not ideal for building.

Many victorian houses only have foundations a few feet deep and it would be vital to spread the load of the house as much as possible.

[Cadfael]

Take no notice of Slemen, he makes thing up. The Williamson's Tunnels' do go a long way. I doubt to Lewis'. There are vast caverns at Copperas Hill from the old copper mines - copperas give the game away. They have been sealed up. Williamson's may have broken into the old copper mine tunnels and caverns.

If they do go that far they could put a underground Merseyrail line down there with the odd station, and then at last the tunnels would be used for something useful.

Smuggling? That far from the port? Nah!

When we started off with the Tunnels group, we learnt lots about Williamson and his tunnelling around Edge Hill. One of the area's we also concentrated on was Wolstenholme Square and we found that his office was actually where the Cream nightclub is now. Around the back, you can still see a bricked up window and sandstone plinth - this used to be his 3 story building.

We asked Cream if they had come across any cellers and they had, but had poured concrete in them in parts for their needs, but what we did see was archways exactly like Paddington in Edge Hill.

I also have a newspaper clipping from the Echo in the 60's to say that upon doing excavation for the RC Cathedral, they stumbled upon sandstone arches and tunnels far underneath the workhouse.

Coupled with the fact that Charles Hand in 1926 toured the Paddington section and walked for 'over a mile' without finding a boundary, I would say that Williamson must have at one point, pick axe'd in to Liverpool from Edge Hill.

[fortinian]

We asked Cream if they had come across any cellers and they had, but had poured concrete in them in parts for their needs, but what we did see was archways exactly like Paddington in Edge Hill.

Could they have looked the same because they were both brick arched cellars, Cad?

Coupled with the fact that Charles Hand in 1926 toured the Paddington section and walked for 'over a mile' without finding a boundary, I would say that Williamson must have at one point, pick axe'd in to Liverpool from Edge Hill.[/QUOTE]

I cannot find any reference to Charles Hand saying he walked for over a mile. In his second article about Williamson for the Transactions of the Historic Society of Lancashire and Cheshire (4th November 1926) he does say 'We failed to discover a boundry' (p 90) but makes no reference to any distances.

I understand there was an accompanying newspaper article of this particular exploration but I do not have a copy of it or a reference of where to find it. Perhaps it is in this where he says he has walked for over a mile.

[Cadfael]

From what we saw, they were exactly the same as the Paddington brickwork. I've seen similar brickwork at the Albert Dock and indeed in the basement at Woodchester Mansion but these were a carbon copy.

In relation to Charles Hand:

"a 1925 newspaper article was discovered, describing the LCHS visit and illustrating it with two photographs. The article pinpointed the property above as No. 126 Paddington and reported that the historians "went for nearly a mile before giving up their search for a boundary".

A copy of which will be going in to the official book. (it was from the Liverpool Post).


Could they have looked the same because they were both brick arched cellars, Cad?

Coupled with the fact that Charles Hand in 1926 toured the Paddington section and walked for 'over a mile' without finding a boundary, I would say that Williamson must have at one point, pick axe'd in to Liverpool from Edge Hill.

I cannot find any reference to Charles Hand saying he walked for over a mile. In his second article about Williamson for the Transactions of the Historic Society of Lancashire and Cheshire (4th November 1926) he does say 'We failed to discover a boundry' (p 90) but makes no reference to any distances.

I understand there was an accompanying newspaper article of this particular exploration but I do not have a copy of it or a reference of where to find it. Perhaps it is in this where he says he has walked for over a mile.[/QUOTE]

[ChrisGeorge]

Just a quick thought, Cadfael. I may be wrong, but I should think there probably was not a set "boundary" for Williamson's tunnels. If the tunnels were begun, as I believe has been said to have been the case, to give out-of-work Liverpudlians work during around the Napoleonic period, the workers probably just kept digging to wherever it led them. That is, the tunnels had no set purpose or design but just were begun by an eccentric but humane local businessman for the sake of being what they were, a kind of folly, if you wish. Please correct me if I am under a misapprehension about Williamson's digging project. I do agree with the statement that it would seem very unlikely that the tunnels went as far as the Vines on Lime Street or to Lewis's in Renshaw Street.

Chris

[Cadfael]

What you have to remember is that when Williamson came along, he was adding to what was already there. We have thoughts that the quarry's that were there were well before Williamson and he came along and used them for what he wanted.

The problem being is that when anything is uncovered these days, they are assumed to be Williamson's Tunnels. It is very fair to say that most of Edge Hill IS littered with Williamson's Tunnels, but apart from Hand in 1926, no one has ever actually ventured out towards town. Given the fact that Edge Hill is one of the high points of Liverpool, you'd have to dig down a fair level (i.e. the railway cutting or below) to be on par with the level of town - I couldn't imagine him building one large slope towards town, but I do believe that in his era, there was far less above ground and he really could tunnel where he wanted.

However, it is fair to say that he may well have used other tunnels around the area and added them to his own. One area which I am very interested in is the demolition of the Royal Hospital as it was rumoured that tunnels were found in the building of this. It would give some credible source if they were Williamson Tunnels to extend the boundary to what we see as being the rectangle piece of land from Irvine Street/Highgate Street/Grinfield Street/Smithdown Lane.

There are enough tunnels littered in that area that we've not stumbled upon - I'm just happy to find those :034:


Just a quick thought, Cadfael. I may be wrong, but I should think there probably was not a set "boundary" for Williamson's tunnels. If the tunnels were begun, as I believe has been said to have been the case, to give out-of-work Liverpudlians work during around the Napoleonic period, the workers probably just kept digging to wherever it led them. That is, the tunnels had no set purpose or design but just were begun by an eccentric but humane local businessman for the sake of being what they were, a kind of folly, if you wish. Please correct me if I am under a misapprehension about Williamson's digging project. I do agree with the statement that it would seem very unlikely that the tunnels went as far as the Vines on Lime Street or to Lewis's in Renshaw Street.

Chris

[petromax]

I guess the Williamson tunnels were limited at most to the extent of rock outcrop in the area (obviously because they would not be self supporting otherwise). I understand that there are also tunnels under the Anglical Cathedral within the rock outcrop there.

I know there is an outcrop not far from the Pig and Whistle around about Martins Bank in Water Street (and the basement would flood there if it were not for the concrete walls) which would possibly run down Castle Street to the Castle (Victoria's monument). It would be very diffciult to sustain a tunnel elsewhere ie. through the weathered rock and silt going down to the docks and river.

In theory there ought to be a continuous rock outcrop from the Anglican Cathedral around to Everton brow taking in Edge Hill (and the Williamson Tunnels) plus a spur on the other side of the pool feeder river running towards the Castle from the foot of Everton Brow - but it's all guess work unless someone could source a geological map and overlay it with the 'theories'?

I had also heard that there were tours (???) of below ground 'caves' running along Strand/ Strand Street which would tie in with the theory that they are actually shoreline erosions from below of the land-fill built up to make the docks ie., the land fill has been eaten away from below by the tide leaving a 'crust' on top!

[wsteve55]

While not being particularly knowledgable about Williamsons works,I have read that, often,he would utilise pre-existing natural caverns,and tunnels,sandstone not being a "hard" rock! This has probably helped confuse routes,and distances involved,along with changes in various ground levels,as the city developed,such as at Mount pleasant!

[ItsaZappathing]

I guess the Williamson tunnels were limited at most to the extent of rock outcrop in the area (obviously because they would not be self supporting otherwise). I understand that there are also tunnels under the Anglical Cathedral within the rock outcrop there.

I know there is an outcrop not far from the Pig and Whistle around about Martins Bank in Water Street (and the basement would flood there if it were not for the concrete walls) which would possibly run down Castle Street to the Castle (Victoria's monument). It would be very diffciult to sustain a tunnel elsewhere ie. through the weathered rock and silt going down to the docks and river.

In theory there ought to be a continuous rock outcrop from the Anglican Cathedral around to Everton brow taking in Edge Hill (and the Williamson Tunnels) plus a spur on the other side of the pool feeder river running towards the Castle from the foot of Everton Brow - but it's all guess work unless someone could source a geological map and overlay it with the 'theories'?

I had also heard that there were tours (???) of below ground 'caves' running along Strand/ Strand Street which would tie in with the theory that they are actually shoreline erosions from below of the land-fill built up to make the docks ie., the land fill has been eaten away from below by the tide leaving a 'crust' on top!

Very Interesting:PDT11