Should standing be brought back to footy matches?

If managed properly and safely I dont see any harm. Its allowed at rugby and lower division games so why not top flight footy? In Germany they have convertable terracing so it can become all seater for European games.

Should standing be brought back to footy matches?

Not in a million years.

If managed properly and safely

Safely? 100% of the time. Not possible. It is on the big games were they
are excited and the place heaving that major accidents happen - that is the 0.01% of the time - when around 100 die.

I can remember standing in the Kop as a kid when it held 28,000. It was one of the most fun, but scariest places to be. Quite often we'd lift down people over our heads to the St John's Ambulance people on the pitch.

The trick of surviving in the Kop was passed down to father and son. Rule 1: Keep well away from the crashbar or you'll break your ribs when the crowd flow downwards. Rule 2: If you're stupid enough to stand with the crashbar in front of you when the crowd flows downwards, simply duck down and wait until the crowd backs off. Rule 3: As a last resort, when the crowd flows downwards, put your foot on the crashbar and you'll be hurtled forward on top of the people in front of you. Kind of like being in a mosh pit:)

BTW, remember the Boys Pen? Jeezus!!!!:shock:

Standing definitely generates a better atmosphere, but as previously pointed out, can spell the recipe for disaster.

However, I don't see why with all seater stadiums, people can't stand now - ie. have standing sections.

I understand the argument of people with young kids not being able to see, but surely with the seats in the way preventing free movement of the past, the risk for standing has been greatly reduced.

I stood all night on the Kop last night and it certainly helped the atmosphere.

Standing definitely generates a better atmosphere, but as previously pointed out, can spell the recipe for disaster.

However, I don't see why with all seater stadiums, people can't stand now - ie. have standing sections.


Stand when all are seats?


I understand the argument of people with young kids not being able to see, but surely with the seats in the way preventing free movement of the past, the risk for standing has been greatly reduced.

I stood all night on the Kop last night and it certainly helped the atmosphere.

Standing has nothing to do with atmosphere. The people make that if the stadium is designed for acoustics.

Should standing be brought back to footy matches?

The Hillsborough and Heyssel tragedies and a number of other sporting disasters due to overcrowding and other factors would argue emphatically NO.

Chris

Hi Kev et al

People cling to the idea that standing is better and traditional, for atmosphere, and I suppose I agree that Anfield's atmosphere was more profound with the old Kop where the supporters stood -- but the old Kop was also more dangerous because of crushing. Might I say though that it is also same kind of sentiment that makes Liverpudlians cling to the idea of different stadiums for Liverpool and Everton, when economically it would make much more sense for the two clubs to share the same stadium. And I say this as a lifelong Reds supporter. If Milan can do it, with the San Siro stadium being shared by AC Milan and Inter Milan, why can't LFC and EFC? The clubs aspire to be top international football clubs and Liverpool aspires to be a top world city, then why can't the city of Liverpool and its football organizations join the modern world?

Chris

Hi Kev et al

People cling to the idea that standing is better and traditional, for atmosphere, and I suppose I agree that Anfield's atmosphere was more profound with the old Kop where the supporters stood -- but the old Kop was also more dangerous because of crushing. Might I say though that it is also same kind of sentiment that makes Liverpudlians cling to the idea of different stadiums for Liverpool and Everton, when economically it would make much more sense for the two clubs to share the same stadium. And I say this as a lifelong Reds supporter. If Milan can do it, with the San Siro stadium being shared by AC Milan and Inter Milan, why can't LFC and EFC? The clubs aspire to be top international football clubs and Liverpool aspires to be a top world city, then why can't the city of Liverpool and its football organizations join the modern world?
Chris

The way the two clubs have dropped behind in the past 20 years is marked. The stadia they have is now laughable. Anfield a top venue? Mmmm...NO! How Goodison Park gets a safety cerificate with two wooden stands I don't know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v3zbqX_Z_s
The Kop in the early 60s. I think it's been taken from a Panorama documentary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v3zbqX_Z_s
The Kop in the early 60s. I think it's been taken from a Panorama documentary.

That footage is amazing Dave do you have any similar stuff?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjVJETz7lfk

Safely? 100% of the time. Not possible. It is on the big games were they
are excited and the place heaving that major accidents happen - that is the 0.01% of the time - when around 100 die.

Is it possible to say seats are 100% safe? Hillsborough happened because there were more people in the section than should have been due to police mismanagement. If correct numbers are allowed in then thigns are okay. What about rock concerts when 100,000 bounce up and down on grass, isnt that a hazard?

My main point is that other sports and lower division games allow standing, so why cant football? The reason goes back to the Tories eventual successful purge of the working classes.

When Hillsborough happened Thatcher must have been rubbing her hands with glee as it gave her the chance to purge rid football of undesirables in the name of safety.

Hi Kev et al

People cling to the idea that standing is better and traditional, for atmosphere, and I suppose I agree that Anfield's atmosphere was more profound with the old Kop where the supporters stood -- but the old Kop was also more dangerous because of crushing. Might I say though that it is also same kind of sentiment that makes Liverpudlians cling to the idea of different stadiums for Liverpool and Everton, when economically it would make much more sense for the two clubs to share the same stadium. And I say this as a lifelong Reds supporter. If Milan can do it, with the San Siro stadium being shared by AC Milan and Inter Milan, why can't LFC and EFC? The clubs aspire to be top international football clubs and Liverpool aspires to be a top world city, then why can't the city of Liverpool and its football organizations join the modern world?

Chris

Its very different in Italy in that the local authorities tend to own stadiums and clubs lease them on a matchday basis. There's no way Liverpool FC would relinquish ownership of their stadium, as they want to make as much non matchday revenue as possible. The only way a groundshare could work is if both clubs went into it as equal partners, which due to the state of Everton's finances cant happen.

Its very different in Italy in that the local authorities tend to own stadiums and clubs lease them on a matchday basis. There's no way Liverpool FC would relinquish ownership of their stadium, as they want to make as much non matchday revenue as possible. The only way a groundshare could work is if both clubs went into it as equal partners, which due to the state of Everton's finances cant happen.

You borrow money. No one has 350 milion in their back pockets. EFC can raise as much money as they want. They just have to pay it back.

Is it possible to say seats are 100% safe?

A million times more safer than standing. I cut the rest as you have no argument.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v3zbqX_Z_s
The Kop in the early 60s. I think it's been taken from a Panorama documentary.

The BBC in those days was run by upper middle class prentious pillocks - even the Woodentops had a servant. They were amazed that football supporters, the dirty working class, sang at foorball games thinking only "rugger" fans sang at sporting matches. They were so naive.

In contrast to Anfield, Goodison Park hardly broke into a chant - if so it was a few 100 behind the Park End, out of crowds of 50 to 60,000. A few yards apart yet very different atmospheres.

A million times more safer than standing. I cut the rest as you have no argument.

Rather than cut the rest as I have no argument why not make some constructive points in response?

Seats are not a million times safer, in fact anyone who sits in the Centneary Stand at Anfield will tell you how long it takes to get out after games, I'd hate to think what it'd be like in there in an emergency. If the need to evacuate arises in stadiums, a terraced area of a stadium could be emptied more quickly than a seated one providing fans arent penned in by 8 feet high steel fences.

You borrow money. No one has 350 milion in their back pockets. EFC can raise as much money as they want. They just have to pay it back.

Thats my point, if Everton FC borrowed the money required to go into a 50-50 venture with Liverpool FC (in a stadium fitting of Liverpool FC's needs and aspirations) they'd be bankrupt within 3 years. They Everton Fc wouldnt have a hope in hell of ever paying it back as the ambitions and projected incomes of both clubs are poles apart.

When Everton were being asked to contribute just 20% of the cost of the doomed Kings Dock project but promised 49% ownership I dont remember them inviting Liverpool to join them in a groundshare. Now they are up S**t creek they've been out with the begging bowl and expecting Liverpool to hand them 50% of their newly planned stadium.

It annoys me mostly though that only in the city of Liverpool are we expected to groundshare. London has been allowed to develop Wembley, Arsenal's new stadium as well as the olympic site - no mention of groundsare there. In Manchester nobody has demanded City and United share, Manchester City Council was even kind enough to convert the Commonwealth Games stadium for football use and give it to City at no initial cost. Ciy just have to pay a percentage of gate receipts should crowds exceed 34000.

Rather than cut the rest as I have no argument why not make some constructive points in response?
.

You need a history lesson. Look at all the deaths, just in the UK, over 100 years at standing terraces. No argument.

If you want to kill someone, join the army.

You need a history lesson. Look at all the deaths, just in the UK, over 100 years at standing terraces. No argument.

If you want to kill someone, join the army.

If you are referring to the Ibrox disaster of 1971 that was caused by a crush on the steps, it would have happened whether the stadium was seated or terraced.

If seats are so foolproof safe how come 300+ died at the all seated Lenin Stadium in Moscow in 1982?

Seats and terracing arent the issue in crowd safety, its how the people in them are managed.

There's a website here (http://www.standupsitdown.co.uk) that campaigns to bring terraced areas back, making the legitimate point that stadiums that must remain all seated for safety reasons at football matches are still allowed to host standing spectators at concerts.

Salford rugby league club are building a new stadium with a standing area. Seems odd to me that football stadiums are only safe if seated but that doesnt apply to rugby league ones.

There's no doubt about it that the atmosphere is lost at seated football matches. I couldn't help but notice during the current spate of LFC televised live games at the amount of times a safety message comes over the tannoy at Anfield for the fans to remain seated.

A report by the Football Supporters Federation out today has called for the return of standing areas

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/6704389.stm