<rhetorical>WTF are they

doing, stuck in the middle of a landlocked Midlands factory with no public access???</rhetorical>
Bring 'em

home!
http://www.liverpoolpictorial.co.uk/pooley2006/image001.jpg

http://www.liverpoolpictorial.co.uk/pooley2006/image002.jpg



http://www.liverpoolpictorial.co.uk/pooley2006/image003.jpg

http://www.liverpoolpictorial.co.uk/pooley2006/image004.jpg

OMG yes, bring em back!!!

Unless the support of the higher Liverpool echelons is provided, and goodness know I've tried, there is little chance as they are grade 2 listed.

Unless the support of the higher Liverpool echelons is provided, and goodness know I've tried, there is little chance as they are grade 2 listed.

But what is the criteria for Listing them?
It has to be the connection with the Liverpool Sailors' Home.
I too say: "Bring them back".

Unless the support of the higher Liverpool echelons is provided, and goodness know I've tried, there is little chance as they are grade 2 listed.

Presumably they are grade 2 listed in the Midlands town in which they are currently located. Agreed that the powers that be would have to be involved to bring the gates back to Liverpool. It could be made a cause celebre for the City of Liverpool like Greece's efforts to bring the Elgin Marbles back to where they (in the Greeks' eyes) belong. I suggest that when they come back (and I believe eventually they will) they be set up at Albert Dock. Anybody have a better location? Also we need to restore Jesse Hartley's six-sided clock (Victoria Tower).

Chris

Chris/Philip

I want them back too !! We have a letter from Avery, the gates owners, agreeing that they are happy about returning them, and also had permission from Stephen Brookes, the Rev of St Nics Church, to install them in the church's gardens, quite fitting as this is known as the Sailors church, but after approaching the council, the lord mayor, David Fleming (Liverpool Museums), having newspapers, radio and tv reporting on the possible return.... and seeing in print that the Sandwell council would contemplate their return if a formal approach was made... they are still waiting, whilst the Gates rust away. Apart from stealing them, hee hee ! There's not much more we can do until some significant pulling power gets involved.

I drove down to take pics of the Sailors Home gates six months ago. There they are, middle of nowhere near the carpark of a weighing machine firm. Must say, though, that security staff – couple of burly old Black Country fellas – were very helpful and interested in the gates' history.
This stuff should take pride of place in Liverpool today, but it's the city's own fault for losing them in the first place.
Lpool Council's heritage officer is keen to get them back, but lethargy of others is infuriating!!!
WavyDavy

Chris/Philip

I want them back too !! We have a letter from Avery, the gates owners, agreeing that they are happy about returning them, and also had permission from Stephen Brookes, the Rev of St Nics Church, to install them in the church's gardens, quite fitting as this is known as the Sailors church, but after approaching the council, the lord mayor, David Fleming (Liverpool Museums), having newspapers, radio and tv reporting on the possible return.... and seeing in print that the Sandwell council would contemplate their return if a formal approach was made... they are still waiting, whilst the Gates rust away. Apart from stealing them, hee hee ! There's not much more we can do until some significant pulling power gets involved.

Hi Griffojack

I would suggest that this just might be the right time to bring the gates back to Liverpool, and I agree that the gardens of St. Nicholas's Church would be a great location for them, for the reasons you state. What about getting the Liverpool Echo and Daily Post interested in the idea of bringing the gates back to Liverpool for the Year of Culture?

Chris

Pooley also made weighing scales

http://www.liverpoolpictorial.co.uk/pooleyscales.jpg

Hi Dave

The Pooley weighing machine pic is interesting. Thanks for posting it!

Chris

Chris

below is a link from the Daily Post last year, nice article, but not productive in the scale (excuse the pun) of things.


http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_method=full%26objectid=15762003%26siteid=50061-name_page.html


Dave,

Fantastic Pic,

I spoke to the Smethwick Curator a while back and he told me that the Pooley Scales were favoured by the railways, whilst Avery were favoured by factories.. so they had similar production lines making exactly the same product but simply stamped diffrent names on them !!

Kind Regards

I found out last year that parts of the Sailor's Home (mermaid iron things, and little marine iron railings and things) were bought by Ellis Clough who designed Portmerion, and they are all incorporated into the village now :)

http://www.theunmutual.co.uk/newsarchive25.htm

The Maritime Museum has a complete sailor's bedroom, plus some of the cast iron panels.

I found out last year that parts of the Sailor's Home (mermaid iron things, and little marine iron railings and things) were bought by Ellis Clough who designed Portmerion, and they are all incorporated into the village now :)

http://www.theunmutual.co.uk/newsarchive25.htm

Fascinating, I've been to Portmerion a few times but I never knew this information.

Yes, some of the railings from the interior of the sailors home were indeed transported to portmeirion. All with a mermaid at the centre, they have been installed on the balcony of one of the buildings.

Even though the Sailors Homes wasn't demolished until 1974, the railings and gates were removed long before that date, probably the 1950's.

Such a shame, but if it were possible, only the gates should be returned, leave the railings where they are.

A FAMOUS lost piece of Liverpool’s history could be returned to front one of its newest attractions.

The gates to the city’s sailors’ home disappeared after the building was demolished, before reappearing in the West Midlands.

Now a campaign has begun to have them returned to Liverpool to front a planned memorial garden in the Paradise Street development.

Council leader Warren Bradley and executive member for heritage Berni Turner are to write to Sandwell borough council to ask for the return of the gates.

They are hanging at a foundry in Smethwick, West Midlands. The city first appealed for the Victorian iron gates return three years ago.

Toxteth community champion Gabriel Muies has held negotiations with developer Grosvenor about placing the 15ft grade II listed gates at the entrance to a memorial garden planned for the Paradise Project site.

Mr Muies said: “These gates are a work of art and they were built in Liverpool.”

The gates – which feature Liver birds, dolphins and other nautical themes – were cast in the Henry Pooley foundry in Dingle and were originally hung on the Sailors’ Home in the mid-19th century.

Pooley’s was later taken over by a Smethwick firm, now called Avery Weigh-Tronix. The gates ended up at its foundry there.

Cllr Turner said today: “We’re going to write to Sandwell asking if we can have the gates back. We’d have to make sure they went to a place of historical significance, but we believe this can happen.”

Rod Holmes, of developer Grosvenor, said: “If the council can get them back we’d like to incorporate the gates into a memorial garden we’re planning for Paradise Street.”

But Sandwell council says it is not as simple as that. Cllr Bob Badham, cabinet member for regeneration and transport, said: "We have plans to turn the Soho Foundry into a major industrial archaeology site and the gates may well be part of those plans. There are also questions about the cost of moving the gates and gaining planning consent for such a move, given that the gates are listed."

catherinejones@liverpoolecho.co.uk

Excellent news, Kev! Bring the Pooley Gates back where they belong!!! :celb (23):

Chris

HISTORIC gates at the centre of a battle for ownership are in danger of rusting away, it was claimed today. more (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/liverpoolecho/news/echonews/tm_headline=the-gates-of-wrath%26method=full%26objectid=18535028%26siteid=5 0061-name_page.html)

What doesn't seem to have been ascertained here is: Who commissioned them and paid for them and why were they taken away (and was it the 30s or 50s as both are mentioned) and either way, why, if the building wasn't lying empty at that time? Avery should be thanked in one way for keeping them in good nick or whatever, but if they were bought or made for a Liverpool building why are they in the black country now or were they sold?

---------

Its fantastic news that the Gates are back in the press again, however, this time there may be some political and commercial influence behind the current campaign, thanks to Gabriel Muiies.

The previous one was driven by enthusiasm, blind faith and an approach which assumed that the return of the discovery of this treasure was a no brainer to an early return to Liverpool.

The Gates were commissioned by shipowners who required sailors to man their ships, and so wanted to provide their employees with a haven, not necessarily safe, but safer than the norm in Liverpool in 1854, the founding stone of the Sailors Home was laid in 1846 by Prince Albert.

The Home's Architect was a scot, from Edinburgh way, called John Cunningham, who designed the original Liverpool Philharmonic, before it was destroyed by fire, the accounts of its design were very flattering as the acoustics of the hall were described as the best in the world.

However, the Liverpool Sailors Home was, in my humble opinion, one of Mr Cunningham's most magnificent projects. It combined superior architecture with philanthropic intentions, he commissioned Henry Pooley and Sons Foundry to produce his chef d'oeuvre in iron.

And although the building was demolished in 1974, the Gates, which have been described as an ' international masterpiece' have survived only by good fortune and the gallant intentions of Avery in Sandwell.

They are graced by a single crowned liver bird, 72 years older than those atop of the Liver Buildings, the symbol of Liverpool the world over..

If it is at all possible, let's get this old bird home...

Just found this picture of one of the parts taken to Portmeirion

http://static.flickr.com/55/180165665_fa77eae673_m.jpg

Floyd,

Good post...

But there were many more of the mermaid adorned railings surrounding the 2 or 3 of the 5 stories of the sailors home, I wonder where rest are resting now ??

LIVERPOOL’S bid to have two historic iron gates returned to the city has won the backing of a national charity.

The British Decorative Ironwork Foundation (BDIF) has added its voice to the campaign to bring the former Liverpool Sailors’ Home gates brought back to Liverpool.

The ornate Victorian gates, made by the Henry Pooley foundry in Dingle, and featuring Liver birds and dolphins, currently stand at the entrance to a foundry in the Midlands town of Smethwick.

But Liverpool council leader Warren Bradley is planning to write to Sandwell district council to ask for the gates to be returned.

Source: Echo!

Very sorry about the quality of this pic' but it does show (if you close one eye !) the Gates in their original location. The attire of those pictured look 1950's to me.

I have been researching the history of the Liverpool Sailors' Home for fifteen years and the story of the gates keeps coming up every couple of years as regular as clock work.
Lets get the facts right.:

It is not news to Liverpool Museums or the Council that the gates from the home are in the Midlands.
The gates are part of Avery's Historical Museum.
If it was not for Avery buying them from the Home after the War they would probably have been lost forever.
The City Museums were offered the carved pediment which stood above the gates free of charge if they would just move them from the Sailors' Home site. They refused the offer and parts of the carvings have now been stolen.
It is the lack of will and funds within Liverpool that is stopping the Gates returning.

Very sorry about the quality of this pic' but it does show (if you close one eye !) the Gates in their original location. The attire of those pictured look 1950's to me.
This picture is from the Sailors' Home Annals, and dates from the mid 1940's.
I think the Sailors' Home charity still have the original and the copyright.

Hi Steve,
how are you getting with your writing of the history of the Sailors Home? I recall you discussing it on another forum about 3 years ago. Good luck, by the way:PDT_Piratz_26:

Floyd,

Good post...

But there were many more of the mermaid adorned railings surrounding the 2 or 3 of the 5 stories of the sailors home, I wonder where rest are resting now ??

There are examples of the railings in various places around the country. A large number were stolen from Princes Park but there are piles of the railings in the Museum's large object store in Liverpool. Apart from the sections in the Museum of Liverpool Life, these have not seen the light of day since 1973.
If the city had the gates who is to say these would not be hidden away too?
1657

A FAMOUS lost piece of Liverpool’s history could be returned to front one of its newest attractions.

"The gates to the city’s sailors’ home disappeared after the building was demolished, before reappearing in the West Midlands."

"They are hanging at a foundry in Smethwick, West Midlands. The city first appealed for the Victorian iron gates return three years ago."

catherinejones@liverpoolecho.co.uk

Both these statements are untrue but keep being repeated!

I have been researching the history of the Liverpool Sailors' Home for fifteen years and the story of the gates keeps coming up every couple of years as regular as clock work.
Lets get the facts right.:
It is not news to Liverpool Museums or the Council that the gates from the home are in the Midlands.
The gates are part of Avery's Historical Museum.
If it was not for Avery buying them from the Home after the War they would probably have been lost forever.
The City Museums were offered the carved pediment which stood above the gates free of charge if they would just move them from the Sailors' Home site. They refused the offer and parts of the carvings have now been stolen.
It is the lack of will and funds within Liverpool that is stopping the Gates returning.

It is the lack of will and funds within Liverpool that is stopping the Gates returning.
I thought it was Sandwell Council's refusal to hand them back to Liverpool that was the problem. There's even less chance now that the area around the Avery Foundry is becoming a Heritage Trail.

I thought it was Sandwell Council's refusal to hand them back to Liverpool that was the problem. There's even less chance now that the area around the Avery Foundry is becoming a Heritage Trail.

The gates keep turning up in the Liverpool Echo and Daily Post every couple of years on slow news days. I've spoken to all the concerned parties and none of them have an axe to grind.
Neither the much maligned Avery or Sandwell Council would block the gate's removal, the Secretary of State would allow the listed structure to be moved if a satisfactory proposal was put forward; the only thing that prevents the gates from moving is the total lack of funding.

I could list a dozen councilors who "Would like the gates to be returned to Liverpool"; words are cheap. I don't see any of them promising to stump-up the many thousands of pounds that would make the move possible.

Honestly, how can Liverpool City Council justify the possible cost of £250,000 to move gates that are under no imminent threat when other historic structures still in the city are falling apart for want of cash.

I'm sick of seeing opportunists jumping onto the so-called "Pooley Gates" bandwagon. When the remnants of the Liverpool Sailors' Home are stuck in archives or being stolen under their noses.

These sound-bite pundits are happy to run down Avery and Sandwell but they have totally overlooked the history and purpose of the Liverpool Sailors' Home and it's pivotal roll in Liverpool's successes as a port city.

Their refusal to even mention The Liverpool Sailors' Home by referring to "The Pooley Gates" shows how shallow their interest in Liverpool History really is.

ps

"I would like the gates to be returned to Liverpool" - see how easy it is.

pps

I would also like world peace

Neither the much maligned Avery or Sandwell Council would block the gate's removal,
Avery is not "much maligned." It's common knowledge that they are more than happy to return the gates to Liverpool.

You haven't spent 15 minutes of research on the Sailors Home, never mind 15 years.

This is not the person I thought it was.

I'm a little concerned about how vindictive the tirades of Port are becoming ! Surely you would like to see the Gates returned ?? Or is it that you failed with your pediment project you want nothing else of the Sailors Home restored to our fair city...

By the way I have spoken to the Avery Museum curator and the impression I received is that the Gates should be returned because they are rusting away, I also have a letter from Avery which indicates that the Gates should be returned. It is a museum, which is visited by very few people except enthusiasts, as the location is far off the beaten track. These Gates should be available to most, and of course with probably the first cast Liver Bird (which predates the Liver Buildings by approx' 72 years) they belong back in the Pool.

And where you get the £250K from defies comprehension, as Liverpool Council came up with a figure of £25K two years ago.....

However, you are correct when you say that there is not the will in LCC to bring them back, yet !

I'm looking forward to your book by the way.

You have again proved what I am saying:

Yes, I would like to see the gates of the Liverpool Sailors' Home returned to the city but I don't see anyone putting forward the cash for this to happen

Again you can't get a word out without running down Avery, the one organisation that put up cash to rescue and preserve the gates. You owe them a big debt of thanks instead of misrepresenting their actions in your statements.

You say the gates are in a museum where only a few enthusiast can visit them. At least they are on public display and can be seen unlike the sections of the Sailors' Home ironwork that is rusting away in the Liverpool Museum stores where no one can see them.

Will you please stop going on about the iron Liverbird "which predates the Liver Buildings by approx' 72 years" where on earth do you get those figures from? The Royal Liver Assurance Company erected their Liverbirds in 1911.

You ask about my estimate for the cost of relocation. I was at the same meeting as you when the figure of £25K was quoted but you know full well that this was not the cost of the relocation.

However I'm glad that you agree with my core argument that there is no will in LCC to bring them back.

My book is going well but you might have spotted items on the Liverpool Sailors' Home that I managed to include in a couple of books I helped with last year.

As for the pediment, I was able to work with a private company to save sections for the city including the Liverbird.

The plaque next to the Gates in Smethwick, please see the excellent post by ScouserDave, indicates that the Gates were cast around 1840, the Liver Buildings were erected 1911/12, my arithmetic, and I'm not even using a calculator, comes to errr 72....

OK I know the foundation stone was laid in 1846, but my point was that this bird is MUCH older than the two atop the Liver Buildings by a significant length of time, hence in my humble opinion the Gates are more important to Liverpool than Smethwick.

I have the utmost respect for Avery, they have been extremely honourable in their dealings with the Gates, and for you to indicate otherwise is incorrect.

I say if we can get the Gates back, we should try, and try together, instead of bickering between ourselves, which seems to be a Liverpool trait.

As JL said ' give peace a chance'

Port.........
For someone who claims to have researched the history of the Sailors' Home, why do you keep rabbiting on about the railings that are not on view, but say nothing about the ones which are on view in the Maritime Museum?

Oh, I know.
You are trying to convince us that Liverpool doesn't care!

Dec 28 2007 by David Bartlett, Liverpool Daily Post

AN ORNATE set of gates celebrating Liverpool’s maritime tradition which were lost to the Midlands more than 50 years ago could be back on their way to the city during the Capital of Culture celebrations.

Known as the Sailor’s Gates, the Henry Pooley Gates were originally installed in the city’s old Sailors Home. in 1850.

However, after the Sailors Home was badly damaged in World War II, they were given to the Avery Historical Museum, Birmingham, in 1951.

Veteran campaigner Gabriel Muies has been lobbying the city council and developers Grosvenor to include the Henry Pooley Gates in a memorial garden in the new Liverpool One development.

Council leader Warren Bradley has written to Sandwell Council, which covers that area, to start discussions to secure the return of the gates.

It is now hoped that the gates could be back in Liverpool during the 08 celebrations.

The gates were originally cast in Liverpool by a local firm Henry Pooley and Sons in 1840, and installed in the home 10 years later.

They had to be removed in the late1940s in order to repair war damage following the Blitz.

The building itself, which sat on a pocket of land now being developed into Liverpool One, was demolished in the 1970s in the face of increasing repair costs.

Henry Pooley and Sons merged with W and T Avery in 1931 and as a consequence the gates were offered to W and T Avery and relocated to the museum.

Rod Holmes, project director for Grosvenor, said: “We have given an undertaking that if we can get hold of them we will install the gates in a memorial garden.

“I really hope we can get the gates back. It would have been great this year in the city’s 800th birthday, but hopefully we can do so in the Capital of Culture year.”

Cllr Bradley wrote: “There is now a considerable body of opinion locally that efforts should be made to secure the return of the gates to the city, if possible, in time for its year as European Capital of Culture, as a memorial to the merchant seaman who lost their lives during both World Wars.

“Preliminary discussions have consequently taken place with Grosvenor Limited regarding the possibility of erecting the gates within a memorial garden to be laid out within the Liverpool One development, close to the site of the original Sailors Home.”

“I am advised that the consent of your council as a local planning authority will also be required for the removal of the gates from their current location given that they are now listed as part of the Soho Foundry site, and I would like to be in a position to ask my officers to liaise with your own officers in relation to the procedural aspects of securing all necessary consents.

“There are obviously costs associated for which sources of funding have yet to be identified, and so, before proceeding further, I would welcome your own thoughts on the general principle of restoring the gates to their original location.”

Sandwell Council’s regeneration leader, Cllr Bob Badham, said: “We can confirm we have had this request from Liverpool City Council and obviously it will need to be discussed in detail with all parties concerned.”

davidbartlett

There's also a column on page 2 of today's Echo, Gabriel is someone I discussed the Gates with, and he seems to be doing an excellent job in bringing this issue back to the fore...

This is an opportunity..

An £8 million plan to transform an historic Black Country foundry into a major tourist attraction has been axed amid fears that the project could go the same way as West Bromwich arts centre The Public.


The gates are now in limbo....