3 tunnels under The Baltic Fleet Pub...

[The Teardrop Explodes]

...apparently.

Did few shifts there over last Christmas and the then manager was telling me about the tunnels going from the

basement.

One goes towards the docks- smuggling? Another goes into the city, and I can't quite remember the details of the third except to say that

given the shackles and chains which are apparently still in place they did at some point house victims of the slave-trade.

Part of one of the tunnels

is still used as part of their micro-brewery.


Who runs the place now? At the time the manager wasn't too confident of the owner's longterm

intentions.

[Kev]

interesting....i can see the tunnel story working as the pub is very old and its location to

the waterfront.

[A.D.Williams]

...apparently.

Did few shifts there over last Christmas and the then

manager was telling me about the tunnels going from the basement.

One goes towards the docks- smuggling? Another goes into the city, and I can't

quite remember the details of the third except to say that given the shackles and chains which are apparently still in place they did at some point house

victims of the slave-trade.

Part of one of the tunnels is still used as part of their micro-brewery.


Who runs the place now? At the time

the manager wasn't too confident of the owner's longterm intentions.

As no slaves came to Liverpool the third tunnel is a no-no.

[The Teardrop Explodes]

As no slaves came to Liverpool the third tunnel is a

no-no.

Aye well, that's what the bloke said was down there, I don't really know. He seemed pretty certain he'd seen these "shackles"

anyway.

As I remember the story one of the tunnels going up toward Ropeworks is/was thought to have run to another tavern, as I say in the Duke

St-Wood St. area. I believe that hostelry no longer exists though.

[SteH]

As no slaves came to Liverpool the third tunnel is a

no-no.

That could be another debate altogether. Its a few years since I've read it but i'm sure in "Liverpool Capital of the Slave Trade" by

Gail Cameron and Steven Crooke there's pictures of adverts of slave sales in the city.

[A.D.Williams]

Why would the merchants bring the slaves back to Liverpool? The slave trade was a three legged journey. Goods sent to Africa were sold in

exchange for slaves. The slaves were then transported to the West Indies to work on the plantations there. The sugar and tobacco were then transported back

to Blighty.

[john]

"However much Liverpool supported the trade, slaves rarely set foot on soil here. Contary to folklore The Goree

Piazzas, on the Dock Road, NEVER had slaves chained there. In fact, the Piazzas were built 11 years after courts ruled that every slave became free as soon

as his feet touched English soil".



http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/localhistory/journey/american_connection/slavery/trail_waterfront.shtml

[PhilipG]

"However

much Liverpool supported the trade, slaves rarely set foot on soil here. Contary to folklore The Goree Piazzas, on the Dock Road,

NEVER had slaves chained there. In fact, the Piazzas were built 11 years after courts ruled that every slave became free as soon as his feet touched English

soil".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/localhistory/journey/american_connection/slavery/trail_waterfront.shtml

"Rarely" is

the keyword here.
Which accounts for the occasional slave sale in Liverpool.

[SteH]

Why would the merchants bring the slaves back to Liverpool? The slave trade was a three legged journey. Goods sent to Africa were

sold in exchange for slaves. The slaves were then transported to the West Indies to work on the plantations there. The sugar and tobacco were then

transported back to Blighty.

Slave ship captains could well have brought some slaves back to be their own personal servants and for eventual

sale. Scouse Press publication "Liverpool & Slavery" refers to adverts in the Liverpool Chronicle and Liverpool Advertiser of slave auctions in coffee houses

in the 1760s in Water St and Old Churchyard

[Waterways]

Slave ship captains could well have brought some slaves back to be their own personal servants and for eventual sale. Scouse

Press publication "Liverpool & Slavery" refers to adverts in the Liverpool Chronicle and Liverpool Advertiser of slave auctions in coffee houses in the 1760s

in Water St and Old Churchyard

Of the millions of Africans involved about 60,000 passed through Liverpool, which is a very small to the

overall numbers. What is a "Scouse Press publication"?

[Waterways]

That could be another debate altogether. Its a few years since I've read it but i'm sure in "Liverpool Capital of the Slave

Trade" by Gail Cameron and Steven Crooke there's pictures of adverts of slave sales in the city.

Some of the sales may have been for slaves

that were elsewhere, not in the city.

[Waterways]

Slave ship captains could well have brought some slaves back to be their own personal servants and for eventual sale. Scouse

Press publication "Liverpool & Slavery" refers to adverts in the Liverpool Chronicle and Liverpool Advertiser of slave auctions in coffee houses in the 1760s

in Water St and Old Churchyard

Some ships through one reason or another ended up with holds full of slaves back in Liverpool. Many

unintentionally.

[Howie]

What is a "Scouse Press publication"?
See www.scousepress.co.uk

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi all

These legendary tunnels

feature in numerous stories about a lot of locations throughout the British Isles. In the case of Williamson's tunnels, those were actual but I am not sure

about other tunnels in other places. The old inn at Liscard, Mother Redcap's, for instance, was said to have a tunnel used by smugglers that ran all the

way to the Red Noses west of New Brighton. Now that's a distance of several miles so it is doubtful if such tunnel ever actually existed. More likely the

idea that Mother Redcap's was a smuggler's inn and the Red Noses a place frequented by smugglers or wreckers to hide their booty somehow got fused in the

popular imagination. I have a poem, "Return to Mother Redcap's," on Mike Kemble's Wallasey

site. (http://www.mikekemble.com/mside/wallasey1.html)

Chris

[Sloyne]

Contary to folklore The Goree Piazzas, on the Dock Road, NEVER had slaves chained

there.The iron rings that were affixed to the walls of the Goree Piazza warehouse were to secure the goods/cargo's stored outside the walls,

overnight, and waiting for storage space to be freed up inside the building. Very few slaves, relative to the numbers carried in Liverpool bottoms, were

sold in Liverpool markets, but the myth persists.

[Sloyne]

Some ships through one reason or another ended

up with holds full of slaves back in Liverpool. Many unintentionally.Not so sure about this. Ships leaving Goree and other West African Coast ports

had lots of options for discharging thier human gargo's between the West African coast and Liverpool. Cadiz, Lisbon, Oporto, Santander, Balboa or even the

passage to the Portuguese markets on the Cape Verde Islands, not to mention Bristol, or the many English Channel ports and numerous Mediteranean ports were

all options, rather than Liverpool. Even allowing for an average 30% attrition rate (figures for the middle passage) which is not likely on the shorter

voyage to Europe, I don't where the market would be, in North West England, for between 150 and 170 Africans.

[MissInformed]

...apparently.

Did few shifts there over last Christmas and the then manager was telling me about the tunnels going from the

basement.

One goes towards the docks- smuggling? Another goes into the city, and I can't quite remember the details of the third except to say that

given the shackles and chains which are apparently still in place they did at some point house victims of the slave-trade.

Part of one of the tunnels

is still used as part of their micro-brewery.


Who runs the place now? At the time the manager wasn't too confident of the owner's longterm

intentions.


...........to get back to the original thread!! any more info on the tunnels?

:celb (23):

[Howie]

See

BBC - Liverpool - Coast - Stage 8 - Salthouse

Dock (http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/content/articles/2005/07/20/coast05walks_stage8.shtml)

Underneath the pub there are caverns and cellars and stories abound of a tunnel running from the pubs cellar to the docks, through which

in the days of the Press Gang men would be captured in pubs. According to the legend Press Gangs would get men drunk and then take them through the tunnels

and aboard the ships to work, they would wake up with a sore head and aboard a ship in open sea.

[Howie]

See also DESKTOP PUB -

Gallery (http://www.desktop-pub.org.uk/gallery.htm)

Ben Flynn told us of his time at the Baltic fleet - "I used to work there in the mid seventies. When I started there were all

these chains in the cellar and these tunnels underground. There were rumours about the cellars being used to chain up unfortunates who were shanghaied and

taken onto the ships in the nearby docks. And more rumours that Pirates had used the tunnels to smuggle things into the country. But we never did find out

what the chains were actually used for!"
"When there was a high tide – the cellar sometimes flooded! We had to have all planks and barriers in the way

down there, and it must have filled with water about twice a year before we got it blocked off in the end."

Now there is a microbrewery in the Baltic

Fleet basement.

[Waterways]

Not so sure about this. Ships leaving Goree and other West African Coast ports had lots of options for discharging thier human gargo's

between the West African coast and Liverpool. Cadiz, Lisbon, Oporto, Santander, Balboa or even the passage to the Portuguese markets on the Cape Verde

Islands, not to mention Bristol, or the many English Channel ports and numerous Mediteranean ports were all options, rather than Liverpool. Even allowing for

an average 30% attrition rate (figures for the middle passage) which is not likely on the shorter voyage to Europe, I don't where the market would be, in

North West England, for between 150 and 170 Africans.

Many were already sold, they just eneded up in Liverpool, and eventually in the

Caribbean.

[Sloyne]

Many were already sold, they just eneded

up in Liverpool, and eventually in the Caribbean.Perhaps so, I wouldn't have any knowledge of that. I do, however, know from the accessible archives

located in the Central/Picton Library in Liverpool and Liverpool University that, very few Africans, between 1619, the acknowledged year that modern European

slavery from Africa started until the abolition by Britain in 1833, very few Africans, in comparison to those carried in Liverpool ships, were sold into

bondage in Liverpool it's self.

I know some, for whatever reason, would like the history of Liverpool and it's involvement in the trade in human

misery to be more complicit than it already is. Perhaps there are other sources that I have overlooked that shed light on your claim. I would be grateful if

you could pass the information, and it's source, along, your information might fill in some gaps in my own incomplete knowledge of the subject. Thanks in

advance.

[Kev]

Tunnels obvious in these attachments. Liverpool but I don't know where, I assume very near

to the River front:

[PhilipG]

Tunnels obvious in these attachments. Liverpool but I don't know where, I assume very near to the River

front:

Where did you get those pics, Kev?
I don't think I've seen them before, but I'd guess St James Mount for the first one, and Mason

Street for the second.
Can anyone confirm?

[ChrisGeorge]

Tunnels obvious in these attachments.

Liverpool but I don't know where, I assume very near to the River front:

Tunnels okay, but connecting to where?

Chris

[MissInformed]

do you all think that the owner of the baltic fleet wouldn't mind one of us going down into the 'so called tunnels' to clear this up??

[Kev]

do you all think that the owner of the baltic fleet wouldn't mind one of us going down into the 'so called tunnels' to clear this up??

ask, i thought that whilst driving past. suppose you have got to be cheeky some times :Colorz_Grey_PDT_16:

[MissInformed]

i think we should send one if the main men in tunnel snap shottery down there....nudge nudge...

[snappel]

I don't think I've seen them before, but I'd guess St James Mount for the first one, and Mason Street for the second.
Can anyone confirm?
They're excellent historic pictures. I'm 99% sure you're right on both counts. The second one can't be anywhere else but Mason St/Smithdown Lane.

As for the Baltic tunnels... Somebody mentioned to me about tunnels in the basement of the Heap Rice Mill, which would tie in with the Baltic Fleet stories. I've been in the mill basement twice, but didn't find anything, although that was before I heard about the tunnels so I wasn't really looking.


http://www.forties-design.co.uk/photos/heap2/cellar.jpg

[MissInformed]

great pic....
would be interesting to see the baltic fleet ones, if they do exist...

[PhilipG]

Now that they've demolished the Fire Station at Canning Place (the one with the white mosaic walls) some interesting big blocks of masonry stones are on the site, obviously from much older buildings.
Also visible are tunnels (sorry about that, they're probably cellars!).

Sorry if I'm off-topic. :)

[Scousemouse]

For those with an interest in the subject please click here. (www.hslc.org.uk/downloads/langmore.rtf)

[theninesisters]

The pictures displayed are:

1 - St James Mount when there was a windmill on the site (lol as you can see from the picture)

2 - Smithdown Lane - Williamson Jos. excavations

William Herdman collection 486 - 1858
Mason Street, Edge Hill. West side
showing entrance to excavations
made by Joseph Williamson 1858.
Shows site of stables and rear of
Raffles' house.

I'm sure I know the manager of the Baltic Fleet from a mate of a mate, we used to beer there after bellringing at the Cathedral. If so, I'll enquire and waffle on about Tunnels and ask him if I can go down. I've put enough money in his till over the years !!! :disgust: :celb (23):

[The Teardrop Explodes]

"I'm sure I know the manager of the Baltic Fleet from a mate of a mate, we used to beer there after bellringing at the Cathedral. If so, I'll enquire and waffle on about Tunnels and ask him if I can go down. I've put enough money in his till over the years !!!" :disgust: :celb (23):

If the guy who manages it now is the same one who managed it a year ago there really won't be any problem whatsoever...

[snappel]

Sounds promising - keep us updated!

[george roberts]

Tunnels obvious in these attachments. Liverpool but I don't know where, I assume very near to the River front:

I believe that the original cavern club was a slave hold in its earlier incarnation. Does any one have a view on that surreal claim. George Roberts.

[shytalk]

I believe that the original cavern club was a slave hold in its earlier incarnation. Does any one have a view on that surreal claim. George Roberts.

Absolute nonsense it was the cellar of an old multi story warehouse. I'm one of the old farts who went there in the late 50's when it was a jazz club.:037:

[Waterways]

Absolute nonsense it was the cellar of an old multi story warehouse. I'm one of the old farts who went there in the late 50's when it was a jazz club.:037:


All around there was fruit wholesalers and warehouses. They were there until the 1970s. There was a big one with a Spanish name at the bottom of Matthew Street.

[scouserdave]

All around there was fruit wholesalers and warehouses. They were there until the 1970s. There was a big one with a Spanish name at the bottom of Matthew Street.
That was Cocozza Wood at 1 Mathew St, John. I done a bit of work there as a kid doing stock control in the early 70s. I also used to find out the ATA of the fruit ships and pass the info on to the sales lads in the Fruit Exchange.

[Gnomie]

I worked on the Baltic Fleet during renovation in the late 1980`s.

The basement has big steel doors in the walls, we assumed that they would be flood gates. but you never know:shock:

the gates are fairly big and solid.

[Waterways]

I worked on the Baltic Fleet during renovation in the late 1980`s.

The basement has big steel doors in the walls, we assumed that they would be flood gates. but you never know:shock:

the gates are fairly big and solid.

Look at the history of the site. It is on the solid land side of the docks. No docks has ever been there. There may have been a warehouse there before the pub was built. Many tunnels under pubs are short and run under the pavements so the draymen can drop the barrels down Many would start to leak water from the pavements above, so were bricked up with rubble behind.

[Ged]

Thank you Miss. Back on topic. I can confirm that there was a big back passage in the female toilets of the Baltic Fleet last xmas, it was my ma-in-law.

[helenb]

i just found this site...this is all very interesting.
i know the brewer from the baltic fleet! i am sure he knows about these tunnels i shall be sure to ask him about it when i see him.

[MissInformed]

oooohhhh thanks!
I am excited now! :celb (23):

[helenb]

I spoke to the brewer from the Baltic Fleet last week.
He said that there are tunnels there, two I think he said, one of which has been bricked up. And the pub was there before the docks were, but one of them goes to where the docks are now I think. I think he said nobody knows what the tunnels were used for. Sorry I couldn't be of much use! I thought he might let me in on exciting secrets but he didn't seem to know any.

[MissInformed]

I spoke to the brewer from the Baltic Fleet last week.
He said that there are tunnels there, two I think he said, one of which has been bricked up. And the pub was there before the docks were, but one of them goes to where the docks are now I think. I think he said nobody knows what the tunnels were used for. Sorry I couldn't be of much use! I thought he might let me in on exciting secrets but he didn't seem to know any.

thats still brilliant!
Thanks for finding out...intrigued me even more now!:celb (23):

[scouserdave]

If nobody in Liverpool has the time to pop into The Baltic Fleet before Monday and say "Hi, I believe you have some tunnels and can I please photie them", I'll do it next week:PDT_Piratz_26:

[theninesisters]

They should have my official looking letter asking for permission and explaining of my interest in Tunnels in Liverpool already. if I get permission then I'll ask if a few of us can go down!

[MissInformed]

:)
They should have my official looking letter asking for permission and explaining of my interest in Tunnels in Liverpool already. if I get permission then I'll ask if a few of us can go down!

oohhh me first!!

[george roberts]

That could be another debate altogether. Its a few years since I've read it but i'm sure in "Liverpool Capital of the Slave Trade" by Gail Cameron and Steven Crooke there's pictures of adverts of slave sales in the city.
i know slaves settled in liverpool 8. I knew the Coal family, decendents of slaves. they lived in Selbourne Street. Thanks George Roberts.
Also, at the rear of Huskisson Street, where I lived number 54, during the 60ts. There were 9ft by 6ft little spaces above the rear stable, (now demolished) Who lived in that little hovel with a tiny fireplace. Certainly not the horse and certainly no ordinary Liverpool workers. (Slaves whatever colour). George Roberts.

[PhilipG]

i know slaves settled in liverpool 8. I knew the Coal family, decendents of slaves. they lived in Selbourne Street. Thanks George Roberts.
Also, at the rear of Huskisson Street, where I lived number 54, during the 60ts. There were 9ft by 6ft little spaces above the rear stable, (now demolished) Who lived in that little hovel with a tiny fireplace. Certainly not the horse and certainly no ordinary Liverpool workers. (Slaves whatever colour). George Roberts.


They'd be freed slaves if they were allowed to settle anywhere, or descendants of slaves.

The grooms and stable lads would sleep over the stables.
Servants' sleeping quarters in Victorian times were very basic.

[docefc]

did anybody go to the tunnels? im doing a doc on it for uni and im going to ring them tmrw o see if i can go down there and get a little history or something from them, anybody know how helpful theyt were? thanks

[theninesisters]

did anybody go to the tunnels? im doing a doc on it for uni and im going to ring them tmrw o see if i can go down there and get a little history or something from them, anybody know how helpful theyt were? thanks

Sent them a nice letter - got ziltch reply. :rolleyes:

[willow]

I must have had your job before you. I worked at Coco's between 1958 and 1964. John Gidman was the boss and Les Revell the chief salesman. They were a good crowd. The address was 20/22 Mathew Street and the existing Cavern was our banana ripening rooms. The original Cavern was across the road. We used (not me!) to catch big hairy tropical spiders out of the bananas and sell them to the School of Tropical Medicine, who I believes milked them for their poison.

Our watering holes were The Grapes which I think had the shortest bar in the world, and The White Star which had that delicious pork pie with an egg in the middle. I never ever found out how the egg got in there.

I once saw a steam lorry steam down Mathew Street much to our astonishment. It had a two man crew, a driver and a stoker.

We also used to be amazed at the office girls queueing up in their lunch hour to get into the Cavern, to see groups like The Beatles and all the others, never dreaming that fame would come their way to the extent it did. I was more into the jazz which eventually was pushed aside. I saw all the trad groups at the Cavern and some of the American blues guys that Chris Bbarber brought over like Speckled Red and Sonny Boy Williamson. Happy days. What happened to them?

[jacky gunnion]

got my mates membership for cavern will post its john monohan ( mono) 1967,, i was 5 i used to gothe disco there very early 70s the original club,from scotty to town 2pence

[jacky gunnion]

hidden tunnel in car repair unit ,in love lane,,,,plus hidden tunnel under .... in otterspool park ,leading to ......
found this tunnel when i was about 8 in otterspool park and it lead to a old structure in the park ,we had to break out of the building and made r way home to scotty the entrance and the exit both r still there ,i would love to go back and speak to the people who own the exit structure ,as would be corpy property .plus ,they would no of the tunnels existence,but ive never heard of any mention of it,ive tried looking , spent many a miserable weekend in the tunnels under dale street ,aka cheapside..

[fortinian]

Tunnels obvious in these attachments. Liverpool but I don't know where, I assume very near

to the River front:

I'm sure that first one isn't St James Mount, i'm sure I've seen it labelled as Wavertree Quarry. The Mill on St James's mount was of a different type in all pictures i've seen of it.

[Waterways]

got my mates membership for cavern will post its john monohan ( mono) 1967,, i was 5 i used to gothe disco there very early 70s the original club,from scotty to town 2pence

My membership card disappeared into the ether.

[Waterways]

. We used (not me!) to catch big hairy tropical spiders out of the bananas and sell them to the School of Tropical Medicine, who I believes milked them for their poison.


:) :)



Our watering holes were The Grapes which I think had the shortest bar in the world, and The White Star which had that delicious pork pie with an egg in the middle. I never ever found out how the egg got in there.


I wasn't that fussed on the Grapes as the bar was too short. Standing at a bar you meet people while sitting you do not. It was OK in groups of people who sat at a few tables. The Porklette animal laid the egg in the pork. The White Star was well, well, just a pub. I liked it more than the Grapes though.But the White Star was little cliquish while the Grapes neutral.



I once saw a steam lorry steam down Mathew Street much to our astonishment. It had a two man crew, a driver and a stoker.


They went past us all the time from Wilson's Flour mill in Mill St. Slow and pulling very trailers.They had low en power which diesel trucks never had.



We also used to be amazed at the office girls queueing up in their lunch hour to get into the Cavern, to see groups like The Beatles and all the others, never dreaming that fame would come their way to the extent it did. I was more into the jazz which eventually was pushed aside. I saw all the trad groups at the Cavern and some of the American blues guys that Chris Bbarber brought over like Speckled Red and Sonny Boy Williamson. Happy days. What happened to them?

The original Cavern was where it is now. When demolished it was moved over the road and was pure crap. Then it moved back over when they rebuilt the original site. I liked that area as we got apples and oranges for nothing.

[RonnieW]

I must have had your job before you. I worked at Coco's between 1958 and 1964. John Gidman was the boss and Les Revell the chief salesman. They were a good crowd. The address was 20/22 Mathew Street and the existing Cavern was our banana ripening rooms. The original Cavern was across the road. We used (not me!) to catch big hairy tropical spiders out of the bananas and sell them to the School of Tropical Medicine, who I believes milked them for their poison.

Our watering holes were The Grapes which I think had the shortest bar in the world, and The White Star which had that delicious pork pie with an egg in the middle. I never ever found out how the egg got in there.

I once saw a steam lorry steam down Mathew Street much to our astonishment. It had a two man crew, a driver and a stoker.

We also used to be amazed at the office girls queueing up in their lunch hour to get into the Cavern, to see groups like The Beatles and all the others, never dreaming that fame would come their way to the extent it did. I was more into the jazz which eventually was pushed aside. I saw all the trad groups at the Cavern and some of the American blues guys that Chris Bbarber brought over like Speckled Red and Sonny Boy Williamson. Happy days. What happened to them?

The egg! They break all the eggs, seperate the white from the yolk, put the yolk in a long plastic tube and boil it until it's hard. They take the cooled yolk and put it into the centre of a larger plastic tube, then pour in the white around it. They boil this until the white becomes hard. That's how every single slice of pie has the same sized piece of egg runbning through it.

The White Star has a great pint of Draught Bass. I prefer The Globe myself, but the Canarvon Castle is a decent pub. Pity they ruined the front of it.

[Waterways]

The egg! They break all the eggs,


No!!! The porklette laid the egg pies.