Who was the UKs worst PM and why.

[jobee]

Gordon Brown
Tony Blair
John Major
Margaret Thatcher
James Callaghan
Harold Wilson
Edward Heath
Sir Alec Douglas-Home
Harold Macmillan
Sir Anthony Eden
Sir Winston Churchill
Clement Attlee

[Debra]

Gordon Brown
Tony Blair
John Major
Margaret Thatcher
James Callaghan
Harold Wilson
Edward Heath
Sir Alec Douglas-Home
Harold Macmillan
Sir Anthony Eden
Sir Winston Churchill
Clement Attlee

Has to be Margret Thatcher , she brought down everthing , as well as selling off everything .

[Waterways]

Thatcher by a mile.


Major was poor (does anyone remember him?)
Sir Alec Douglas-Home was a compete idiot and put in charge because of the public school he went to (it was their turn)
Eden was naive (Suez)
Harold Macmillan was a liar (he said we had never had it so good in 1958 with about half the country still in slum housing).
Edward Heath said he would cut prices at a stoke. In the following three years prices had never risen so much in history to that point.
Sir Winston Churchill was poor in peace time being a war Lord.

[burkhilly]

Maggie. :eek:

[captain kong]

Phony Tony Bliar.
QUISLING and the cause of at least 100,000 deaths of Iraqi, Afghani and British Service people. The killing goes on.
Since leaving office has aquired a portfolio of ?18,000,000 of properties to live in, Earns 90,000 for an after dinner speech.
Yes a real good old fashioned Socialist is our Phony Tony.

He also today costs us who pay tax ?6,000,000 a year to keep him safe with Security, a lot more than it costs for Gordon Brown.

[A.D.W]

Tony Blair. No contest in my eyes.

[Birdy]

Thatcher every time.

[Diane Louise]

It has to be Tony Blair, a two faced liar and his wife who was not much better!

[Robert Boulter]

Tony Blair,snug,inept,champagne swilling plastic 'Socialist'.deliberately lying to parliament and the country about weapons of mass destruction because 'HE' thought it was right to invade Iraq,therefore breaking international law.He should be jailed.

[Diane Louise]

Tony Blair,snug,inept,champagne swilling plastic 'Socialist'.deliberately lying to parliament and the country about weapons of mass destruction because 'HE' thought it was right to invade Iraq,therefore breaking international law.He should be jailed.

He should be put in The Tower with his silly wife and fed on bread and water!

[Bernie]

Thatcher every time.

Oh dear, do you even remember her? I loved her, she was the strongest willed PM we had in years. I used to like to watch question time, she was sharp as a tack. What is more she did the greatest thing anyone ever did for me.


She made me emigrate to the USA.

[RonnieW]

It's a difficult question. British Prime Ministers in general are reprehensible bunch. Adulterers, slave traders, liars, war mongers, racists. In short, just the type any decent person wouldn't want as a family member. In my own lifetime, Thatcher was awful. Anyone who could cut cash which went into the research of cot-death syndrome has to be among the lowest form of life. Blair was also awful. People thought he would make things a little easier for the working class, but the change over from the Tories was almost seamless. Atlee was probably one of the best, but his record on foreign policy was not a good one, but probably all anyone could expect from a man of his class.

[Waterways]

She made me emigrate to the USA.

LOL! That sums the cow up!

And yes she was more an object of entertainment than a serious politician.

[Waterways]

The best we have had is Tony Blair. He took the country from basket case into one of the world's strongest economies. The pound was the world strongest currency for about 10 years. Constitutionally he got rid of hereditary Lords. The hard of thinking have no idea of what this means. Also the zero unemployment with over a million migrant workers to fuel the booming economy.

Under Blair Since 1997:

The UK economy has been the world's most robust.
The pound has been almighty strong.
9/11 caused a recession in most of the western world. It never happened here.
The UK had the longest sustained economic growth in history. Provincial cities have boomed with their skylines changing beyond belief.
Some superb anti-social laws have been implemented (a pity some police and courts do not use them enough).
The country even absorbed over 1 million eastern European and still not have an unemployment problem.
Hereditary peers abolished - the biggest constitutional change since Oliver Cromwell
Provincial cities went on massive building programmes - look at the skyscrapers in Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham.

[Waterways]

Atlee was probably one of the best, but his record on foreign policy was not a good one, but probably all anyone could expect from a man of his class.

What does "from a man of his class"mean?

[Waterways]

Tony Blair,snug,inept,champagne swilling plastic 'Socialist'.


All warped opinion.



deliberately lying to parliament and the country about weapons of mass destruction


State the facts that prove he lied?



because 'HE' thought it was right to invade Iraq,therefore breaking international law.He should be jailed.

No international law was broken - you make things up. I though invading Iraq was the right thing to do at the time, and still do - they got rid of a tyrant who gassed villages. WE should have done the same to Hitler in the mid 1930s before he was a big threat. By the way your darling public schoolboy Tories support the invasion and still do.

Kelly said that Iraq can have WMD "within months, weeks", even if they never actually had any physical weapons. All on film.

[Waterways]

Phony Tony Bliar.
QUISLING and the cause of at least 100,000 deaths of Iraqi, Afghani and British Service people. The killing goes on.
Since leaving office has aquired a portfolio of ?18,000,000 of properties to live in, Earns 90,000 for an after dinner speech.
Yes a real good old fashioned Socialist is our Phony Tony.

He also today costs us who pay tax ?6,000,000 a year to keep him safe with Security, a lot more than it costs for Gordon Brown.

You made all that up.

[A.D.W]

Four posts from Waterways and I can't see any of them. I am truly blessed.

Woo! Woo!

:handclap:

[A.D.W]

Four posts from Waterways and I can't see any of them. I am truly blessed.

Woo! Woo!

:handclap:

NO! Five posts I can't see!

Hur'ah!!

:PDT_Piratz_26:

[Ged]

But you miss out on so much fun :)

[A.D.W]

But you miss out on so much fun :)

Maybe, Ged, but its the same old same old with that Zionist lackey Waterways. What has Labour done for the working class? Bugger all in my opinion.

[RonnieW]

What does "from a man of his class"mean?


The upper middle-class.

[RonnieW]

State the facts that prove he lied?

I gather Hans Blix did that, but Blair would have none of it.

[RonnieW]

What has Labour done for the working class? Bugger all in my opinion.


So true!

[Waterways]

Four posts from Waterways and I can't see any of them. I am truly blessed.

Woo! Woo!

:handclap:

Stay in ignorance. The Tories will love you. Someone who votes to keep himself at a disadvantage and them in cover. How sad.

[Waterways]

Maybe, Ged, but its the same old same old with that Zionist lackey Waterways. What has Labour done for the working class? Bugger all in my opinion.

This one is a lunatic!!! Zionist? He a right wing anti-Jewish, anti-black, anti-everything loony.

A BNP fan. Full of hate.

[Waterways]

The upper middle-class.

How does that relate to foreign policy? Only upper class people know about foreign policy?

[Waterways]

I gather Hans Blix did that, but Blair would have none of it.

Blair NEVER lied to the house. You make things up. The point was made abundantly clear by Kelly. See my other post.

[Waterways]

So true!

You agree with a BNP supporter? Not another!!!! :(

Zero unemployment was a lot he did for the working class. Besides many.many others. Just read my posts.

[captain kong]

I DONT KNOW WHAT MR WATERWAYS SMOKES OR SNIFFS BUT i`LL HAVE SOME OF THAT.

[GNASHER]

Zero unemployment was a lot he did for the working class. Besides many.many others. Just read my posts.

We can never have 'zero unemployment'.
So you are saying that when Tony was in power all the people working in the job shops and social have been getting paid for doing sweet FA?
I think you talk ****e.

[Waterways]

I DONT KNOW WHAT MR WATERWAYS SMOKES OR SNIFFS BUT i`LL HAVE SOME OF THAT.

Sniffing reality may harm your health.

[A.D.W]

Am I anti-Jewish? No. Am I anti-black? No. Am I pro-white working class? Yes. Am I anti-Zionist? Yes.

Sigh.....

[Waterways]

We can never have 'zero unemployment'.
So you are saying that when Tony was in power all the people working in the job shops and social have been getting paid for doing sweet FA?
I think you talk ****e.

Oh my God!! Another uneducated one. What world are these people in? Not the real one for sure. We had over 1 million eastern Europeans filling in the job shortages. Did you know? Remember all those Polish people who had funny accents all over the place? There is always a float of unemployed because of changing jobs, moving area, companies going bust, etc.

[Waterways]

Am I anti-Jewish? No. Am I anti-black? No. Am I pro-white working class? Yes. Am I anti-Zionist? Yes.

Sigh.....

You are also an brainless idiot! I have some Jewish friends and also had a Jewish girl friends for 5 years. My neighbour was from Israel - him and his wife were graduate engineers. My uncle fought alongside Jews in the British Army in the Jewish Brigade. I'm sure some Jewish people read this forum and may even contribute. Nice people.

[A.D.W]

What was that, Waterways? Nope. Still can't hear what you are saying.

Bliss!

Woof! Woof!

:)

[GNASHER]

Oh my God!! Another uneducated one. What world are these people in? Not the real one for sure. We had over 1 million eastern Europeans filling in the job shortages. Did you know? Remember all those Polish people who had funny accents all over the place? There is always a float of unemployed because of changing jobs, moving area, companies going bust, etc.

And you are a self opionated dick head.
The poles came because of EU law,we had to let them.Bosses used them to drive wages DOWN but kept prices up.

[Ged]

Oh my God!! Another uneducated one. What world are these people in? Not the real one for sure. We had over 1 million eastern Europeans filling in the job shortages. Did you know? Remember all those Polish people who had funny accents all over the place? There is always a float of unemployed because of changing jobs, moving area, companies going bust, etc.

This would be commendable only if we had the indigenous population in employment first. The fact of the matter is this government and in fact any government can do sod all about any number of Eastern or other Europeans coming here as they are the EU rules. Another fact is, their being here is almost crushing the free services such as health, education and housing that wasn't meant for such a large influx all in one go. Such is the fact they can wander where the work is, getting tax out of them is another matter as we know how slow the tax office are with emergency codes even for people who have lived here for years. The system is overwhelmed.

[Ged]

Sorry Gnasher. Jumped in with my reply before seeing yours. I knew his follow up would be about why were all suppossed to be so grateful that we can 'absorb' a million incomers in one go - the fact is we had to and paid for it with reduced wages.

[Waterways]

This would be commendable only if we had the indigenous population in employment first.

Employment levels under Blair were the lowest in 40 years, despite EU laws, etc. And still 1million Eastern European were absorbed the economy was so strong.

[Waterways]

And you are a self opionated dick head.


Sunshine I go on fact, not quarter baked opinions with no factual foundation whatsoever. You are still an uneducated insulting fool. The Alf Garnets of this world. Now run off and vote BNP. It is called bigotry. Boy this thread has that in spades.

[jobee]

Thatcher by a mile.

[list]
Major was poor (does anyone remember him?)
Sir Alec Douglas-Home was a compete idiot and put in charge because of the public school he went to (it was their turn)
Eden was naive (Suez)
Harold Macmillan was a liar (he said we had never had it so good in 1958 with about half the country still in slum housing).
Edward Heath said he would cut prices at a stoke. In the following three years prices had never risen so much in history to that point.
Sir Winston Churchill was poor in peace time being a war Lord.
[/list

]Suez wasn't a flop, Nasser was a fool to himself.



His jew bating left his country flat broke.

A Brief History of the Suez Canal.

The Suez Canal was opened in 1869 under French and Egyption ownership..
Both countries had contributed to the cost. The French under a 99 year lease which expired in 1968
The British involvement in the canal came about when the ruler of Egypt put his shares up for sale because of financial problems in 1875. Disraeli bought the shares for 4 milliion pounds giving the British government as security. Thus Britian became a controlling shareholder in the Suez Canal Company.
In 1888 a treaty was signed to help boost the weak Egyptian economy. The treaty stated that the canal was
open to all in peace and war. In 1922 Egypt became independent it had a King [Fuad]and an army.
In 1936 Fuad died and King Farouk took over as King of Egypt and Sudan. Farouk became alarmed when Italy attacked Ethiopia in the 1935 war. He then drew up a treaty between Britain and Egypt stating that the UK was to withdraw all troops from Egypt except those necessary to protect the Suez canal and its surroundings, 10,000 troops plus auxiliary personnel. The UK would also supply and train Egypt?s army and assist in its defence in case of war. Both countries signed the agreement

The Suez Crisis 1956.
The Suez Crisis began when the U.S. Secretary of State John Foster Dulles found out that Gamil Nasser, President of Egypt, was buying arms from the soviet block. He then informed Nasser that money for the Aswan Dam project would not be available. Nasser retaliated by nationalising the Suez canal, even tho' it was his in 1968 when the lease ran out.
He also stopped Israel's ships from using the canal and the Straits of Tiran, thus stopping Israel?s oil supplies.
On October 25, Egypt signed a tripartite agreement with Syria and Jordan placing Nasser in command of all three armies. The continued blockade of the Suez Canal and Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, combined with the increased commando attacks, prompted Israel to attack Egypt on October 29, 1956.

The attack was described as a 'work of art' by the military historian Sir Basil Liddell Hart.
The attack started with a parachute drop at the Mitla Pass not to far from the Suez Canal, and deploying some troops along the Jordon border. This confused Nasser as to where the brunt of the attack would come. He waited 24 hours before moving his 2nd Brigade from Suez to the Mitla Pass with one battalion moving into the narrow part of the pass. Ariel Sharon?s 202 paratroop battalion then attacked the Egyptian troops, some bitter hand to hand fighting took place before the Egyptians conceded defeat then broke and ran. Sharon rested his men for 48 hours before moving them in the direction of Sharm el Sheikh where the main attack would focus. Sharm el Sheikh overlooks the Straits of Tiran. The Egyptians at Sharm surrendered with very little resistance.
In the aftermath, the Americans wanted the Iraelis to give back all the land they had gained, saying they would stop financial aid. The Israelis refused, demanding that the UN took over the land they had gained. They also wanted a guarantee that the Straits of Tiran would stay open for their ships. The Americans granted their request.
This kept the peace for a few years.

The Six day War.
In 1967 Nasser started again. He told the UN he wanted them off Egyptian soil. After a while U Thant [ the UN secretary] obliged him. Nasser then closed the Straits
Of Tiran to Israeli ships. He knew this move would put Israel on a war footing.

Nasser had amassed the largest army the conflict had ever seen. Egypt, Jordan, Syria,
With contingents from Iraq, Sudan, Arabia, Tunisia, Morocco, Algeria,.
Israel went strait off the front foot. Smashing the air forces of Egypt, Jordon, Syria whilst they were still on the ground. They then set about the ground forces that had no air cover. It was a complete rout, with thousands of Egyptians surrendering.
Six days to wreck the largest army in the Middle East. Nasser offered his resignation.
Field Marshal Amar the man Nasser picked to lead the attack, committed suicide
The canal stayed closed for the remainder of Nasser?s rule. When Nasser died in 1970
his country was flat broke, his internal politics had failed, his huge army had failed.
Nasser had failed.

As for the Anglo French attack on Port Said. The 3 Para attack on El Gamil was all over in a couple of hours. B company took the brunt of the attack and lost 4 comrades.
The French did an equally quick job at Port Fuad By the time the Russians and Americans started moaning it was all over. We were 20 miles up the canal at El Cap and not a shot was fired. In the negotiations after the attack compensation was offered to the share holders and was all paid up by 1963. The British that had to leave Egypt over the troubles also received some compensation; this was paid up by 1969.
Nasser would have been better off leaving the British to protect the canal, he certainly couldn?t do it with that army.

http://pub10.bravenet.com/guestbook/show.php?usernum=813365397&cpv=2

http://pub10.bravenet.com/guestbook/show.php?usernum=813365397&cpv=2

[captain kong]

Get rid of the Eastern Europeans, that would give our British people jobs. there are nearly Three Million people on Benefit and job seekers allowance while these Euros come over here and are used as cheap labour keeping the Brits unemployed. There are 950,000 young people , teens and twenties unemployed, Government figures.
The government want it that way so they have a steady pool of younsters joining the Army for their stupid wars that no one wants.

Then get out of Europe , the most Corrupt organisation outside of Zimbabwe.

I went in town the other day, I thought I had Emigrated, I couldnt hear a word of English being spoken. I had to find the Town Hall and clock to make sure I was still in my home town..

[underworld]

NO! Five posts I can't see!

Hur'ah!!

:PDT_Piratz_26:

Me too. Isn't it truly wonderful!

[A.D.W]

Me too. Isn't it truly wonderful!

It's like I have died and gone to heaven. Not seeing Waterways postings is like seeing all the pretty angels on the clouds.

Ahhhhh! Lovely.

:PDT11

[underworld]

I'm so happy!

[molly]

As far as Im concerned and what I have lived through in Northern Ireland it has to be The Right Honourable Margaret Thatcher Murdering B*****d. As far as her health goes now, she gets what she deserves and more.

[GNASHER]

WW is the type of tosser you meet in a pub that thinks because he shouts the loudest he has won the argument.

[Waterways]

Suez wasn't a flop, Nasser was a fool to himself.

His jew bating left his country flat broke.


Suez was a political failure. A humiliation. A climb down.

[Waterways]

Get rid of the Eastern Europeans, that would give our British people jobs.

Should they be put in gas chambers? Maybe these unemployed Londoners should shoot these Scotsmen who are living and working in London as well.

[Waterways]

WW is the type of tosser you meet in a pub that thinks because he shouts the loudest he has won the argument.

The BNP voting Alf Garnet again. Note how they are all negative. They hate this that and the other and Jews and blacks and they want others throw out, who legally can live here, or put in gas chambers or whatever. No one know knows anything positive.

[Waterways]

One thing is clear, all the worst PMs were Tories by a mile.

[captain kong]

I would certainly get rid of Scotsmen in London. such as Gordon Brown, Alister Darling and all the rest of those Nu Lab Scotsmen in the Cabinet.

Also all the worst Scots men Prime Ministers were Gormless Gorrdon Brown, and Phony Tony Bliar

[Waterways]

I would certainly get rid of Scotsmen in London. such as Gordon Brown, Alister Darling and all the rest of those Nu Lab Scotsmen in the Cabinet.

Also all the worst Scots men Prime Ministers were Gormless Gorrdon Brown, and Phony Tony Bliar

What don't you understand about this?

Under Blair Since 1997:

The UK economy has been the world's most robust.
The pound has been almighty strong.
9/11 caused a recession in most of the western world. It never happened here.
The UK had the longest sustained economic growth in history. Provincial cities have boomed with their skylines changing beyond belief.
Some superb anti-social laws have been implemented (a pity some police and courts do not use them enough).
The country even absorbed over 1 million eastern European and still not have an unemployment problem.
Hereditary peers abolished - the biggest constitutional change since Oliver Cromwell
Provincial cities went on massive building programmes - look at the skyscrapers in Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham.


The Labour government since 1997 has been the most successful we have ever seen. FACT!!

You do not change a winning team.

.

[captain kong]

Under Blair Since 1997:
The UK economy has been the world's most robust.
The pound has been almighty strong
9/11 caused a recession in most of the western world. It never happened here.
The UK had the longest sustained economic growth in history. Provincial cities have boomed with their skylines changing beyond belief.
Some superb anti-social laws have been implemented (a pity some police and courts do not use them enough).
The country even absorbed over 1 million eastern European and still not have an unemployment problem.
Hereditary peers abolished - the biggest constitutional change since Oliver Cromwell
Provincial cities went on massive building programmes - look at the skyscrapers in Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham.
Mr WW



Where has all the manufacturing industry gone??? CHINA..
The pound is at its weekest. Two years ago I was getting A$2.49 to a pound in Australia, now today I will get A$1.58 to my pound.
in the USof A I was getting US$2.14 to my pound, now I get US$1.60 To my pound.
WHERE HAS MY MONEY GONE?????

And after all that the Country is Bancrupt and in the deepest debt in the History of Britain.
Provincial cities build `sky scrapers`. Hotels that are empty because no one can afford to stay in them.useless.
Hereditary Peers all gone, It did not help me, Tony filled the Lords up with all his cronies. All bent and corrupt, all unelected. Is that democracy??
May as well have left it as it was as having more unelected bent cronies.
No benefit to me and mine.
I would say that 3.7 million British people on benefit is an unemployment problem.
and all the Human Rights Laws have only helped the Criminals to hide behind.
Until then I never ever needed a human rights law.

So what you have said is just a load Cr**.

[dazza]

Gordon Brown
Tony Blair
John Major
Margaret Thatcher
James Callaghan
Harold Wilson
Edward Heath
Sir Alec Douglas-Home
Harold Macmillan
Sir Anthony Eden
Sir Winston Churchill
Clement Attlee

Neville Chamberlain's not on the list?

[danensis]

I begin to understand why there is a publication on the newstands called "Waterways World". Its certainly not the one I live in.

John

[underworld]

I begin to understand why there is a publication on the newstands called "Waterways World". Its certainly not the one I live in.

John

Just put him on your "Ignore" list. Many of us have. He gets nasty and starts name calling if you dont agree with his politics.

Labour have pursued a policy of boom and bust since 1997. I could see the recession coming a mile off. I could see all these young couples helping themselves to cheap credit and buying ?250,000 houses that they could never afford from the outset. Why couldn't the chancellor see it too. Who was the chancellor for 10 of those years? Lets see now!!!

[Max]

Gordon Brown
Tony Blair
John Major
Margaret Thatcher
James Callaghan
Harold Wilson
Edward Heath
Sir Alec Douglas-Home
Harold Macmillan
Sir Anthony Eden
Sir Winston Churchill
Clement Attlee

Attlee should never be considered in such a discussion. Britain had some great progress thanks to him.

Out of who i have read about Thatcher. She reversed social progress simply thats why. The voters were mad to give her 3 terms.

Churchill himself was overrated because the war too. Guys like Major just carried on what their predecessor started.

I don't agree with all of Waterways stuff on the current Labor for example, why did they introduce university fees? Thats something the Tories are expected to do? Plus he was a puppet of one of the most retarded US Presidents ever, i know most British PM's are always a puppet of US presidents though.

[Waterways]

I begin to understand why there is a publication on the newstands called "Waterways World". Its certainly not the one I live in.

John

You are living in the world the Daily Mail makes for you. I'll stay in the real one.

What don't you understand about this?

Under Blair Since 1997:

The UK economy has been the world's most robust.
The pound has been almighty strong.
9/11 caused a recession in most of the western world. It never happened here.
The UK had the longest sustained economic growth in history. Provincial cities have boomed with their skylines changing beyond belief.
Some superb anti-social laws have been implemented (a pity some police and courts do not use them enough).
The country even absorbed over 1 million eastern European and still not have an unemployment problem.
Hereditary peers abolished - the biggest constitutional change since Oliver Cromwell
Provincial cities went on massive building programmes - look at the skyscrapers in Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham.


The Labour government since 1997 has been the most successful we have ever seen. FACT!!

You do not change a winning team.

[Max]

The current Labour ain't as bad as what people make out to be but they have gone too far right instead a little fair balance. Not too bad but we still need alot of social reform.

People need to not be brainwashed with false promises of living greedy like what the milk snatcher promised too. Also the imperialist atitude about Great Britain is a load of crap too. People are easily brainwashed then moan about who they voted in!

[Waterways]

Under Blair Since 1997:
The UK economy has been the world's most robust.
The pound has been almighty strong
9/11 caused a recession in most of the western world. It never happened here.
The UK had the longest sustained economic growth in history. Provincial cities have boomed with their skylines changing beyond belief.
Some superb anti-social laws have been implemented (a pity some police and courts do not use them enough).
The country even absorbed over 1 million eastern European and still not have an unemployment problem.
Hereditary peers abolished - the biggest constitutional change since Oliver Cromwell
Provincial cities went on massive building programmes - look at the skyscrapers in Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham.
Fact presented by Mr WW


Fantastic. I am glad Kong is getting somewhere. What don't you understand about all that?

Manufacturing industry has been going to the Far East for nearly 50 years - Globalisation.

The pound is at its weakest because we are the worst financial crisis in history. The Credit Crunch. Have you heard of it?



Provincial cities build `sky scrapers`. Hotels that are empty because no one can afford to stay in them.


Do you think the cities should build slums instead? I know many here want slum tenements to be re-introduced. They hotels are not full because we are the worst financial crisis in history. The Credit Crunch. Have you heard of it?

Hereditary Peers are gone and democratic Lords is on the way. It will help you as we will have democratic representative parliament, not bunch of land owners rigging laws to suit themselves. You are the sort who would have dictatorship with mass poverty around you, as long as you have a few bob in the bank.

After I thought you were getting somewhere you let me down. Kong, do not vote for a bunch of public schoolboy idiots all from one school, to the run the country.

[Waterways]

He gets nasty and starts name calling


Only if you start it. I just tell it as it is.



Labour have pursued a policy of boom and bust since 1997.


Another one in cloud cuckoo land. Even 19/11 never affected the economy. The most robust and stable in the world.



I could see the recession coming a mile off.


You could? You knew in-depth what was happening in the US economy that affected the whole world? Holly sock Batman!

[Waterways]

Attlee should never be considered in such a discussion. Britain had some great progress thanks to him.

Out of who i have read about Thatcher. She reversed social progress simply thats why. The voters were mad to give her 3 terms.

Churchill himself was overrated because the war too. Guys like Major just carried on what their predecessor started.

I don't agree with all of Waterways stuff on the current Labor


I only gave the fact of what they did since 1997. Remember the deprivation of Tories? Short memory?



for example, why did they introduce university fees?


Because graduates end up being the highest paid people in the country who can afford to pay back. They have long time to pay back as well.

[RonnieW]

How does that relate to foreign policy? Only upper class people know about foreign policy?


He was a child of his class, which is why he took an imperialist view of the world. He signed agreements with Franco as soon as the war was over.

[RonnieW]

It's like I have died and gone to heaven. Not seeing Waterways postings is like seeing all the pretty angels on the clouds.

Ahhhhh! Lovely.

:PDT11

He's entitled to his view, even if it is a simple minded faith in a political party which is nothing more than a cul-de-sac down which the anger of the working class can be safely flushed and forgotten about. Your civil rights have been steadily eroded by his party since 1997. He imagines he is against the Tories because he supports Labour, yet the anti-trade union laws brought in by Thatcher remain on the statute books. He imagines he opposes racism and anti-semitism when he supports a party which supports a system which encourages them.

[A.D.W]

Indeed, he is entitled to his opinion. It's just a shame his debating skills are none existent, RonnieW.

[RonnieW]

Indeed, he is entitled to his opinion. It's just a shame his debating skills are none existent, RonnieW.


As Gnasher has said, he's like the bloke in the pub who thinks he's won the argument because he shouts the loudest. I suppose it's to be expected when one idolises authoritarian leaders like Blair.
Even the old reactionary Churchill opposed the use of ID cards and had them withdrawn on re-taking power in 1952. It never entered Atlee's head to withdraw them at all.
It's a great laugh reading his posts though!

[jobee]

Suez was a political failure. A humiliation. A climb down.




You must be joking, the canal was opened, the straits of tiran were opened,
compensation was paid to our shareholders. compensation was paid to the ex pats that had to leave Egypt. We were NOT occupying Egypt. Since Egypt received its independence we were only stationed along the banks of the canal to protect it from Israeli attack and closure. It received a bad press because Eden had always been sarcastic to the British press.

But victory it was, probably the sweetest and quickest victory the British army ever achieved. Read on.

http://pub10.bravenet.com/guestbook/...13365397&cpv=2

http://pub10.bravenet.com/guestbook/...13365397&cpv=2

[Waterways]

As Gnasher has said, he's like the bloke in the pub who thinks he's won the argument because he shouts the loudest.


I do not shout. I just give facts. The hard of thinking and the conditioned can't handle that - you are clearly one or the other or both.



I suppose it's to be expected when one idolises authoritarian leaders like Blair.


Is this the same Blair that kicked out the unelected self-interest hereditary peers from the House and Lords to introduce a democratic chamber?

All you do, like many others here, is make yourself look foolish.

[Waterways]

You must be joking, the canal was opened, the straits of tiran were opened,


No I am not joking. The US said get out the British did what they said. It was a watershed moment, when the British empire was clearly over.

[Waterways]

He's entitled to his view,


I give facts. Any view is heavily factual based. I go on results.

You are agreeing with a person who openly hates people people because of their race/region. hat is how clever you are.

Find out how the UK is run. Read Paxman's Who Runs Britain for starters. Come back for more when you have read it.

You are a sycophant. The Alf Garnets of this world.

<snip inane babble>

[Waterways]

Indeed, he is entitled to his opinion. It's just a shame his debating skills are none existent, RonnieW.

His idea of debating skills are agreeing with racist hating bigotry. A BNP voter. Yes.

[Max]

I only gave the fact of what they did since 1997. Remember the deprivation of Tories? Short memory?



Because graduates end up being the highest paid people in the country who can afford to pay back. They have long time to pay back as well.

I've read what the Tories deprived people of but i was only 11 when Blair got in so i don't remember much Tory stuff when they were in.

Depends on the Uni sometimes and what degree they get though. Alot of graduates are in jobs like McDonalds for example at the moment. Some subjects people get degrees in don't always pay too high either.

Places like Sweden and even Ireland have free Uni education. Education is a right and one of the most important needs to survive, it should be made free or at least really cheap to pay. It was something you'd expect from the schoolboys.

The student loans places mess up too and make the lower income pay for the mistakes, they give loans out to students with parents on a really high income like 60k a year!

[A.D.W]

'This message is hidden because Waterways is on your ignore list. '

:)

[Waterways]

Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
How does that relate to foreign policy? Only upper class people know about foreign policy?

He was a child of his class, which is why he took an imperialist view of the world. He signed agreements with Franco as soon as the war was over.

What class are you on about? You are class obsessed and very confused. A sycophant who doffs his cap at the upper class. How sad. Boy we have 'em.

Agreements were being signed all over the place in 1945 to ensure peace. Franco was no threat and it was thought he would not last long.

[A.D.W]

I've read what the Tories deprived people of but i was only 11 when Blair got in so i don't remember much Tory stuff when they were in.

Depends on the Uni sometimes and what degree they get though. Alot of graduates are in jobs like McDonalds for example at the moment. Some subjects people get degrees in don't always pay too high either.

Places like Sweden and even Ireland have free Uni education. Education is a right and one of the most important needs to survive, it should be made free or at least really cheap to pay. It was something you'd expect from the schoolboys.

The student loans places mess up too and make the lower income pay for the mistakes, they give loans out to students with parents on a really high income like 60k a year!

Does Scotland have free university education, Max?

[RonnieW]

I give facts. Any view is heavily factual based. I go on results.

You are agreeing with a person who openly hates people people because of their race/region. hat is how clever you are.

Find out how the UK is run. Read Paxman's Who Runs Britain for starters. Come back for more when you have read it.

You are a sycophant. The Alf Garnets of this world.

<snip inane babble>

More laughs from the Blair Babe! You are obviously incapable of independent thought. You support a capitalist political party and yet you accuse others of hating people because of their race and religion. You support a party which supports rendition flights and the bombing of civillians. You're quite a hypocrite, but carry on by all means. You should learn to laugh at yourself. Everyone else seems to.

[Max]

Churchill had Cain roots in him, plotting a coup of an Irainian leader just for wanting to nationalise oil, authorising nuclear bomb testing, opposition to Indian independence, the carpet bombing of innocent German's and other regressive stuff industrial wise.

Plus he felt he was owed his Prime Minister time after the war just because of his war efforts the bitter oldtimer.

Plus he should of tried to dress like M.Bison out of street fighter like Tito did.:PDT10

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Churchill_%26_Eden_Greet_Tito_In_London_jpg.jpg

[RonnieW]

What class are you on about? You are class obsessed and very confused. A sycophant who doffs his cap at the upper class. How sad. Boy we have 'em.

Agreements were being signed all over the place in 1945 to ensure peace. Franco was no threat and it was thought he would not last long.

Why do you have to parade your ignorance? You have no idea why Atlee signed the pact with Franco so why pretend you do? Quick! Have a look at Google and come back and pretend you knew all the time.

[Max]

Does Scotland have free university education, Max?

Yeah but you have to be Scottish born since Scotland discriminate because they have a chip against the English.

In EU places like Ireland, you only have to be an EU citizen.

[Waterways]

I've read what the Tories deprived people of but i was only 11 when Blair got in so i don't remember much Tory stuff when they were in.


You are very luck then. It was grim, very grim. Liverpool was war zone, like something out of a futuristic sci-fi film where society had broken down.

In the 1980s I took a NZ girl friend to Liverpool. She said she had never seen such a horrible deprived violent place. In 12007 I took two French ladies to Liverpool and they were impressed. That speaks volumes

Everytime the Tories get in they screw matters up. They believe in a privileged ruling class and are obsessed in retaining class structures.



Depends on the Uni sometimes and what degree they get though. Alot of graduates are in jobs like McDonalds for example at the moment. Some subjects people get degrees in don't always pay too high either.


If you do not earn you do not pay back until you do. Most do not pay anyhow.



Places like Sweden and even Ireland have free Uni education. Education is a right and one of the most important needs to survive, it should be made free or at least really cheap to pay. It was something you'd expect from the schoolboys.


I agree with you, They paid me to go. But the cost is not that great. But why should we pay the uni fees of family where the father earns ?80K a year?

The Tories will not give free higher education. They do not want the working class educated and never did. The Labour party expanded higher education in the 1960s. Before that the UK only had a few universities and only the privileged went.

Only for Wilson the UK would be like Turkey.

[A.D.W]

I work with an Indian Hindu at work and shook the lad's hand and wished him all the best before I broke up for the Christmas holiday. I also work with a white lad who has converted to Islam. I again shook his hand and wished him all the best for the new year.

Not bad for a racist, eh?

:PDT10

[Waterways]

Why do you have to parade your ignorance?


I find you laughably amazing. Atlee was not able to make decisions because of the class he was from according to this one. Of course to him only the upper class could make certain decisions because their class and silly arrrcccents would make them think in a certain way embellished with infinite wisdom - like Eden. Yerrr!

Are you are BNP voter too?

[RonnieW]

'This message is hidden because Waterways is on your ignore list. '

:)

A good idea! I suspect he's on more than someones 'ignore list' judging by the absolute drivel he comes out with. All those accusations of racism, religious bigotry etc shows him up for what he is. Just another Blairite flunkey of the ruling class.

[Waterways]

I work with an Indian Hindu at work and shook the lad's hand and wished him all the best before I broke up for the Christmas holiday. I also work with a white lad who has converted to Islam. I again shook his hand and wished him all the best for the new year.

Not bad for a racist, eh?

:PDT10

Yes be nice to nice to them while you want them thrown out. Would you shake hands with Jews?

[Waterways]

All those accusations of racism,

Not another loonpot!!!! The BNP man was going on about Jews. Of course you forgot that.

[Max]

Well i remember so many dumps in Liverpool, i agree there. It is a little better since the 90's though.

I dunno why, they shouldn't but high earners of 80k can get loans too. It might as well be free for all like the NHS since it would have to be tax funded and the high earners would be paying taxes that go towards it

Yeah, Wilson was good, put higher taxes on the wealthy and help start the Open University.

[RonnieW]

This message is hidden because Waterways is on your ignore list.

This is great! I wish they'd had this facility on The Scouse House! I could have ignored all the racist and neo-fascist no-marks on there.

[Waterways]

More laughs from the Blair Babe! You are obviously incapable of independent thought.


This one really is another confused nutter. The political threads attracts them



You support a capitalist political party


I support anyone except the Tories. All they have, and do, is keep the UK back.



and yet you accuse others of hating people because of their race


He said it not me. Read the thread. Are you capable? I can help you if they like. I am a Jewish lackey or something according to the retarded one because I do not vote BNP.

You are a sycophant.

[Waterways]

This message is hidden because Waterways is on your ignore list.

This is great! I wish they'd had this facility on The Scouse House! I could have ignored all the racist and neo-fascist no-marks on there.

How about putting yourself on the ignore list then.

[Waterways]

Well i remember so many dumps in Liverpool, i agree there. It is a little better since the 90's though.

I dunno why, they shouldn't but high earners of 80k can get loans too. It might as well be free for all like the NHS since it would have to be tax funded and the high earners would be paying taxes that go towards it


It is a difficult one. Sometimes putting in an admin to collect fee or taxes will bring in little or nothing. OK it make bring some employment, which may be one of the goals.



Yeah, Wilson was good, put higher taxes on the wealthy and help start the Open University.

Wilson was superb. He kept us out of Vietnam as well. He made the RAF buy the Harrier jump jet, which they did not want. Then the USA bought twice as many. The advanced jet would have disappeared only for him and no doubt we would have been buying them from the USA.

The active tilting train was developed by British Rail. After running it for a year Thatcher allowed BR to scrap the train. We have spent ?1.5 billion so far and it will be more, on importing Italian tilting trains based on the UK technology.

[captain kong]

I will say it again as you do, Read it slowly and inwardly digest

Where has all the manufacturing industry gone??? CHINA..
The pound is at its weekest. Two years ago I was getting A$2.49 to a pound in Australia, now today I will get A$1.58 to my pound.
in the USof A I was getting US$2.14 to my pound, now I get US$1.60 To my pound.
WHERE HAS MY MONEY GONE?????

And after all that the Country is Bancrupt and in the deepest debt in the History of Britain.
Provincial cities build `sky scrapers`. Hotels that are empty because no one can afford to stay in them. useless. why build useless Hotels when they should be building new houses for the people of this once great Nation.
Hereditary Peers all gone, It did not help me, Tony filled the Lords up with all his cronies. All bent and corrupt, all unelected. Is that democracy??
May as well have left it as it was, as having more unelected bent cronies.
No benefit to me and mine.
I would say that 3.7 million British people on benefit is an unemployment problem.
and all the Human Rights Laws have only helped the Criminals to hide behind.
Until then I never ever needed a human rights law.

So what you have said is still just a load Cr**.

[Bernie]

Yeah, Wilson was good, put higher taxes on the wealthy and help start the Open University.

I remember his speech when he devalued the pound. "The pound in your pocket will still be the same" Biggest lie ever from a politician.

[Ged]

So..................Answer.

They're all as bad as each other. You need a degree in being hard faced, finger pointing, side swerving, buck passing, brown nosing, feather nesting to even make the short list.


:snf (41): :disgust:

[Waterways]

I will say it again as you do,
..
..


Kong, where have you been in the past 50 years? Manufacturing has been deliberately been directed to the Far East - Globalisation. Even Wilson got the RN to ship rebels in Indonesia to overthrow the regime in 1965 - to implement globalisation, manufacturing.

Have you heard of the Credit Crunch? If the government did not intervene there would have been soup lines.

You are on cloud whatever.

[Waterways]

I remember his speech when he devalued the pound. "The pound in your pocket will still be the same" Biggest lie ever from a politician.

Not a lie. The buying power in the UK was still the same. Devaluing was to make British goods competitive aboard and imported good less competitive.

Wilson put the economy right after the mess of Eden, McMillan.Home etc, who had no clue about how to get the UK economy back on track after the war and being heavily in debt to the USA.

The economy was just about right when Thatcher got in and Tories screwed it up all over again.

The biggest lie was McMillan's speech in 1958 when he said, "you have never had it so good". Half the country was in substandard housing. It showed how out of touch they were, or more likely they didn't give a toss about the working class. It was amazing, that people in slums believed him and voted them back in. All they had to do was look around them. BTW, I knew McMillan's daughter.

[A.D.W]

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

I have been told that you say am I a BNP supporter? That's neither here nor there, young street arab. How many wars have the BNP started in the last 12 years? How many innocent muslim lives have been wasted by the BNP during that last 12 years? How many people have been made unemployed because of the polices of the BNP during the past 12 years?

And...? And...? And...?

Go and boil your head, white boyo.

You'll remain on ignore, street arab boyo, because this forum would only desend into chaos if I started to 'debate' with ye. And I wouldn't want Kev's forum ruined.

:disgust:

[Waterways]

I have been told that you say am I a BNP supporter?


I thought you had me on ignore? Who is porkie telling?
You write that you are BNP fan.



That's neither here nor there, young street arab.
...
...
Go and boil your head, white boyo.
...
...
You'll remain on ignore, street arab boyo


More racism.

[dazza]

Nelville Chamberlain [although not on the list - I think he deserves to be] for pursuing the appeasement foreign policy with Nazi Germany, in spite of their continued commitment to increased militarisation. Britain was totally unprepared for war in 1939 when it came, and the outcome could have been much worse had America not been forced into the war in Dec. 1941.

[Waterways]

Nelville Chamberlain [although not on the list - I think he deserves to be] for pursuing the appeasement foreign policy with Nazi Germany, in spite of their continued commitment to increased militarisation. Britain was totally unprepared for war in 1939 when it came, and the outcome could have been much worse had America not been forced into the war in Dec. 1941.

Chamberlain was a tosser for sure. After the defeat of France, the Tory Lord Halifax was wanting peace with the Germans. The Labour Party would have nothing of it.

The UK was prepared for war in 1939. The army was fully motorised - men never marched unlike the Germans. Germany was not prepared. Germany was facing the might of the UK and France who collectively dwarfed Germany. French tanks were much superior to German tanks. The Germans could not knock out the UK's Matilda 2 tank.

The combined British and French economies was 60% larger than Germany's and Italy's. Germany hardly had a navy while the RN held an effective blockade of Germany. Germany won the battle of France because of allied incompetence rather than them being a wonderful military machine. They attacked the USSR without adequate fuel or materials and no reserves. By December 1941 the Soviets had tuned the Germans back at Moscow using the latest T-34 tanks, which the Germans had no match. 18 months before the Germans had been pegged at the battle of Britain and were going nowhere hoping for a miracle.

The US accelerated the wars end, not decide it. The economies of the UK and the USSR dwarfed that of Germany and the end result would only be defeat for Germany. Germany were doomed in even thinking of war.

[Samsette]

Waterways. It was not Harold Wilson that kept the British out of Viet Nam, but Britains position as co-chair,with the USSR, of the International Commission for Supervision and Control in Viet Nam. The ICSC was born out of the Geneva Agreements between Uncle Ho and the French Union, following Dien Bien Phu.

[dazza]

Quotes from Nelville Chamberlain, appeasement, and the British road to war, by Frank McDonough.


The UK was prepared for war in 1939. The army was fully motorised...

Really, I don't think so.

"It is clear that rearmament started too late and lacked the level of spending and the industrial capacity needed for an effective detterant to Germany. The navy depended on steel and shipbuilding, two industries deeply damaged by the depression....

The army was in an even worse position as the munitions factories had closed down after the first world war....By 1935 only one major company Vickers-Armstrong was still in business...

There was no quick fix to Britain's military weaknesses. This through a heavy burden on diplomacy to buy time and reduce tension...

[Under Chamberlain] the Inskip report was insular and defensive. It confirmed that army spending would remain the lowerest priority of all...

[As late as] October 1938 there wasn't even two fully equipped divisions to send anywhere...This meant that France would have to fight virtually alone at the onset of war.

The war office urged Chamberlain to create six divisions to aid France, but this proposal was rejected...

British policy was underpinned by real military preparations for war in late 1938, but Chamberlain still hoped war could be prevented by diplomacy..."


The combined British and French economies was 60% larger than Germany's and Italy's.

"In 1935, the Germany population was 67 million, compared with the British figure of 47 million. The chances of Britain winning an arms race was not very high...."


Germany hardly had a navy while the RN held an effective blockade of Germany.

"The actual preparations to defend British trade or for an economic blockade of Germany were practically non-existent. Between 1919 and 1939, not one single British naval exercise to prepare for merchant convoy protection against submarine or air attack ever took place."


The US accelerated the wars end, not decide it.

"[We were financially on our knees by] the end of 1940, US financial assistance was desparately required to sustain the British war effort..."

-----

Chamberlain still wins my vote, for worst PM - for his dithering, and long held grip on the security blanket of delusional appeasement, despite all evidence to the contrary from Germany. Another case against comfortable inaction [with apologies to JFK].

[RonnieW]

Waterways. It was not Harold Wilson that kept the British out of Viet Nam, but Britains position as co-chair,with the USSR, of the International Commission for Supervision and Control in Viet Nam. The ICSC was born out of the Geneva Agreements between Uncle Ho and the French Union, following Dien Bien Phu.


Wilson send British troops to Vietnam as advisers. The 'fortified village' sceme the US employed whereby whole village populations were moved into huge stockades, was a British idea and British officers who had fought against the Mau Mau went to Vietnam to help organise it. Mark Curtis has a couple of very good books dealing with Britain's underhand role in world politics since the last war. Both major parties have a truly awful record in dealing with dodgy regimes, supplying arms to repressive governments etc.

[Waterways]

Waterways. It was not Harold Wilson that kept the British out of Viet Nam, but Britains position as co-chair,with the USSR, of the International Commission for Supervision and Control in Viet Nam. The ICSC was born out of the Geneva Agreements between Uncle Ho and the French Union, following Dien Bien Phu.

The USA directly approached Wilson to commit troops. The Aussies did. The USA said they would not sanction IMF loans to the UK unless they dropped the TRS2 fighter/bomber - cheeky sods - as they did not want this to compete with their F-111, which the TRSR2 was superior although still needing development. Wilson dropped the TRS2. Naturally he never forgot and ignored them on Vietnam. This is all vox-pop info.

[Waterways]

Quotes from Nelville Chamberlain, appeasement, and the British road to war, by Frank McDonough.
Really, I don't think so.


Read Tooze who has upset a lot of WW2 history.

Adam Tooze, Wages of Destruction.
Page 371.

"The German army that invaded France in May 1940 was far from being a carefully honed weapon of modern armoured warfare. Of Germany's 93 combat ready divisions on May 10 1940, only 9 were Panzer divisions, with a total of 2.438 tanks between them. These units faced a French army that was more heavily motorised, with 3,254 tanks in total."

Dutch, Belgian, UK & French tanks in total was 4,200 tanks. The BEF was a fully motorised army, no horses were used to tow guns or supplies, unlike the German army, which mainly horse drawn.


"the majority of the German tanks sent into battle in 1940, were inferior to the their French, British and Belgian counterparts".

Tooze, page 371/372.

"Nor should one accept unquestioningly the popular idea that the
concentration of the Germans tanks in specialised tank divisions gave them a decisive advantage. Many French tanks were scattered amongst the infantry units, but with their ample stock of vehicles the French could afford to do this. The bulk of France's best tanks were concentrated in armoured units, that, on paper at least, were every bit a match for the Panzer divisions."

The British did introduce the Matilda 2 tank, although late in the Battle of France, which again the Germans could barely knock out.

The British and French alone should have stopped the Germans, irrespective of politics. Gross ineptitude on the British and French sides was the problem. How the French never knew of the massive German build up just across their own borders opposite the Belgian border is incredulous.

Tooze Page 454:

"Fundamentally the Wehrmacht was a "poor army". The fast striking motorised element of the Germans army in 1941 consisted of only 33 divisions of 130. Three-quarters of the German army continued to rely on more traditional means of traction: foot and horse. The German army in 1941 invaded the Soviet Union with somewhere between 600,000 and 740,000 horses. The horses were not for riding. They were for moving guns, ammunition and supplies."

"The vast majority of Germany's soldiers marched into Russia, as they had in France, on foot."

The BEF did not march. The first motorised army. After Normandy most troops went by motor - in theory, although many marched depending on the situation.


"But to imagine a fully motorised Wehrmacht, poised for an attack on the Soviet Union is a fantasy of the Cold War, not a realistic vision of the possibilities of 1941. To be more specific, it is an American fantasy. The Anglo-American invasion force of 1944 was the only military force in WW2 to fully conform to the modern model of a motorised army."

The reality was that the German Army so no super army with advanced equipment, as propaganda portrayed. The Allies attempted to cover their pitiful, inept defeat.

Tooze, page 373:

"In retrospect, it suited neither the Allies nor the Germans to expose the amazingly haphazard course through which the Wehrmacht had arrived at its most brilliant military success. The myth of the Blitzkrieg suited the British and French because it provided an explanation other than military incompetence for their pitiful defeat. But whereas it suited the Allies to stress the alleged superiority of German equipment, Germany's own propaganda viewed the Blitzkrieg in less materialistic terms."


From Keegan:

Germany was third behind the USA, then the UK in GDP in 1939.
Germany equals UK in capital goods production in 1939.
UK economy grows 60% during WW2.

[A.D.W]

"Several members of an anti-Zionist Jewish sect have spent the Jewish Sabbath in Gaza with some of Israel's most bitter enemies, the Islamic group Hamas.

Yisroel Dovid Weiss, a leader of the radical Neturei Karta, said Saturday that his group was in Gaza to show support for the Palestinian people.

The sect decries Israel's existence because they believe Jews must live in exile without a country of their own until the coming of the Messiah.

Neturei Karta traditionally supports Israel's enemies - most notably Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, whom members hugged at a Holocaust Revisonist conference in 2006."

Jews I would be more than happy to shake hands with, Waterways me young street arab.

:PDT_Aliboronz_24:

[A.D.W]

Almost tempting to take Waterways off me iggy list? What say the forum? Yay or Nay?

[captain kong]

I think Mr WW is a member of the Conservative Party.
I used to vote Labour but since he started all his entertaining views of Labour I have decided to vote Conservative now.
What a ploy.

[RonnieW]

Almost tempting to take Waterways off me iggy list? What say the forum? Yay or Nay?


It all depends on if you think he has something worth reading. The last Labour Party supporter who had anything worthwhile to say was George Lansbury. It's been a steady march to the right ever since.
I admit there is quite a comic element in the Blair Babe's ramblings, but there's a decent little book about which has the same sort of stuff in it without you having to imagine him frothing at the mouth whenever someone has a go at Baby Bomber Blair: http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/products/alistair+beaton/the+little+book+of+new+labour+bollocks/3436940/

[Samsette]

RonnieW.? Can you quote any sources for saying that British troops were sent into Viet Nam?? I only ask because it is a subject close to my heart.? I do know for certain that a British general who had successfully employed the fortified hamlet concept during the Malayan Emergency of 1948-61 did attempt to impose his knowledge on MAC-V, and, to their credit, the Americans did allow him to come and make his assessment of the situation.? I believe his name was Templar, and the fortified hamlet thing worked quite well in Malaya, simply because the indigenous population were Malay, whereas the insurgents were mainly ethnic Chinese.? The insurgency in Viet Nam was a made in Viet Nam product with 100 per cent Vietnamese participation.? The only British troops in Viet Nam, that I am personally aware of, were half a dozen Military Police on temporary duty from Singapore, and a small detachment from the Gurkas from HK, tasked with guarding the British Embassy in Saigon.

[Waterways]

"Several members of an anti-Zionist Jewish sect have spent the Jewish Sabbath in Gaza with some of Israel's most bitter enemies, the Islamic group Hamas.

Yisroel Dovid Weiss, a leader of the radical Neturei Karta, said Saturday that his group was in Gaza to show support for the Palestinian people.

The sect decries Israel's existence because they believe Jews must live in exile without a country of their own until the coming of the Messiah.

Neturei Karta traditionally supports Israel's enemies - most notably Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, whom members hugged at a Holocaust Revisonist conference in 2006."

Jews I would be more than happy to shake hands with, Waterways me young street arab.

:PDT_Aliboronz_24:

You are obsessed with Jews. Get it sorted.

[Waterways]

Almost tempting to take Waterways off me iggy list? What say the forum? Yay or Nay?

You must keep me on!!

[Waterways]

I think Mr WW is a member of the Conservative Party.
I used to vote Labour but since he started all his entertaining views of Labour I have decided to vote Conservative now.
What a ploy.

You must be a masochist.

[Waterways]

I admit there is quite a comic element in the Blair Babe's ramblings,

I find it comical when fools like you have no memory whatsoever.

What don't you understand about this? You can move your lips when you read.

Under Blair Since 1997:

The UK economy has been the world's most robust.
The pound has been almighty strong.
9/11 caused a recession in most of the western world. It never happened here.
The UK had the longest sustained economic growth in history. Provincial cities have boomed with their skylines changing beyond belief.
Some superb anti-social laws have been implemented (a pity some police and courts do not use them enough).
The country even absorbed over 1 million eastern European and still not have an unemployment problem.
Hereditary peers abolished - the biggest constitutional change since Oliver Cromwell
Provincial cities went on massive building programmes - look at the skyscrapers in Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham.


You do not change a winning team. Get back to me where you are stuck.

[underworld]

Almost tempting to take Waterways off me iggy list? What say the forum? Yay or Nay?

Nay don't do it. Everyone is getting wound up by him. If they just ignored everything he writes then maybe the idiot would go away.

[dazza]

Read Tooze who has upset a lot of WW2 history.....Adam Tooze, Wages of Destruction.

I'll check it out, thanks.


Page 371.

"The German army that invaded France in May 1940 was far from being a carefully honed weapon of modern armoured warfare. Of Germany's 93 combat ready divisions on May 10 1940, only 9 were Panzer divisions, with a total of 2.438 tanks between them. These units faced a French army that was more heavily motorised, with 3,254 tanks in total."


Dutch, Belgian, UK & French tanks in total was 4,200 tanks. The BEF was a fully motorised army, no horses were used to tow guns or supplies, unlike the German army, which mainly horse drawn.

Tooze Page 454:

"Fundamentally the Wehrmacht was a "poor army". The fast striking motorised element of the Germans army in 1941 consisted of only 33 divisions of 130. Three-quarters of the German army continued to rely on more traditional means of traction: foot and horse. The German army in 1941 invaded the Soviet Union with somewhere between 600,000 and 740,000 horses. The horses were not for riding. They were for moving guns, ammunition and supplies."

"The vast majority of Germany's soldiers marched into Russia, as they had in France, on foot."

The reality was that the German Army so no super army with advanced equipment, as propaganda portrayed. The Allies attempted to cover their pitiful, inept defeat.

From Keegan:


UK economy grows 60% during WW2.


Poppycock! Let's not kid ourselves here? This 'motorised' army and superior Matilda II tanks would not have been able to sustain the effort had it not been for the creation of U.S. Lend-Lease act, in March 1940 [Germany invaded France May 1940] which cancelled US previous impartiality concerning conflicts overseas, and were now able to send aid [goods for loans] to whoever they saw fit - mostly to Britain & France. Without this aid our war would have finished in 1940. And a more 'primitive' [though effective] solider's on foot with dependable horse drawn carriages may have won the day for the Germans? So much for our preparedness? Epic FAIL on our part...and for Chamberlain.

As a footnote: remember the American war in independance [1775 ? 1783]? Here was this superior militarial technological country [Great Britain] possessing the most powerful empire the world has seen....who were defeted by local militia, who knew the terrain well, and employed unorthodox methods of fighting.

[pablo42]

Has to be Margret Thatcher , she brought down everthing , as well as selling off everything .

She was a very funny Lady. Total Boss...

[pablo42]

Almost tempting to take Waterways off me iggy list? What say the forum? Yay or Nay?

WW is cool, bad mannered but cool none the less.

[underworld]

WW is cool, bad mannered but cool none the less.

Bowlocks!

[pablo42]

Bowlocks!

Ha, you sound like WW now....

[jobee]

As a footnote: remember the American war in independance [1775 ? 1783]? Here was this superior militarial technological country [Great Britain] possessing the most powerful empire the world has seen....who were defeted by local militia, who knew the terrain well, and employed unorthodox methods of fighting.

[/QUOTE]
Blimey your history wants brushing up, the French king had his head chopped
off for busting his country in this war. We were up against the Dutch and Spanish as well.They were all jealous of our empire.

Kingdom of France
Spain
Dutch Republic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War

[dazza]

Blimey your history wants brushing up, the French king had his head chopped
off for busting his country in this war. We were up against the Dutch and Spanish as well.They were all jealous of our empire.

Kingdom of France
Spain
Dutch Republic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War

Yes, but my example [a side footnote] was just highlighting the differences between tatics, in reponse to WW's post. ie: Germans only had horses to pull their guns, and soldiers had to march, whereas the British were more advanced and 'motorised' army. In the American War of Independence, we had a professional army, they had a militia. I didn't want derail on the whys and wherefores of all contributory factors underpinning what was a global conflict in all but name, fascinating nontheless.

[jobee]

No I am not joking. The US said get out the British did what they said. It was a watershed moment, when the British empire was clearly over.

But I was twenty miles up the canal at el cap, bored stiff and looking for something to shoot at when the yanks and Russians started crying.

It was all over. There would have been no Suez if Nasser had kept his head.

Eden ask him for share compensation and Nasser replied " Let them choke on their tears".

We were the leading shareholders with France.

Before the Yanks said anything Nasser had already agreed to talks.

We were sitting there waiting for the withdraw command.

We didn't want the canal back, we wanted the monies due.

Which we eventually got.

Suez had a lousy press.

[captain kong]

Quote.......As a footnote: remember the American war in independance [1775 ? 1783]? Here was this superior militarial technological country [Great Britain] possessing the most powerful empire the world has seen....who were defeted by local militia, who knew the terrain well, and employed unorthodox methods of fighting.

The British beat the Americans at Lundys Lane in Niagara.They were attempting to take over Canada, the Brits stopped them. Remember the British Army was fighting over three thousand miles away from their home bases across the wild North Atlantic, getting men and supplies across by sailing ship. The men were in a poor condition after one of those voyages.
Visit the Forts in Kingston, Niagara, and in Erie, all the history of the battles are there, with memorials to many Liverpool Regiments including the Kings and also the Lancashire Fusileers.

[Waterways]

But I was twenty miles up the canal at el cap, bored stiff and looking for something to shoot at when the yanks and Russians started crying.


You totally missed it. It was political failure. The might of the British Empire was no more, the empire climbed down as it was clearly over.

Eden's resignation marked the last significant attempt Britain made to impose its military will abroad without U.S. support.
..
..
Some argue that the crisis also marked the final transfer of power to the new superpowers, the United States and the Soviet Union.

For a taster:
Suez Crisis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Crisis)

[Waterways]

Quote.......As a footnote: remember the American war in independance [1775 ? 1783]? Here was this superior militarial technological country [Great Britain] possessing the most powerful empire the world has seen....who were defeted by local militia, who knew the terrain well, and employed unorthodox methods of fighting.

The British beat the Americans at Lundys Lane in Niagara.They were attempting to take over Canada, the Brits stopped them. Remember the British Army was fighting over three thousand miles away from their home bases across the wild North Atlantic, getting men and supplies across by sailing ship. The men were in a poor condition after one of those voyages.
Visit the Forts in Kingston, Niagara, and in Erie, all the history of the battles are there, with memorials to many Liverpool Regiments including the Kings and also the Lancashire Fusileers.

That quote is tripe. The UK pursed peace as they nothing to gain to keeping the colonies. The UK made more money from Jamaica alone than those 13 colonies.

Kong, you are confused here. Lundy's Lane was in the Anglo-American War of 1812, which took place on 25 July 1814. A different war. Another one the UK won.

[RonnieW]

RonnieW.? Can you quote any sources for saying that British troops were sent into Viet Nam?? I only ask because it is a subject close to my heart.? I do know for certain that a British general who had successfully employed the fortified hamlet concept during the Malayan Emergency of 1948-61 did attempt to impose his knowledge on MAC-V, and, to their credit, the Americans did allow him to come and make his assessment of the situation.? I believe his name was Templar, and the fortified hamlet thing worked quite well in Malaya, simply because the indigenous population were Malay, whereas the insurgents were mainly ethnic Chinese.? The insurgency in Viet Nam was a made in Viet Nam product with 100 per cent Vietnamese participation.? The only British troops in Viet Nam, that I am personally aware of, were half a dozen Military Police on temporary duty from Singapore, and a small detachment from the Gurkas from HK, tasked with guarding the British Embassy in Saigon.

Sir Gerald Templer was High Commissioner in Malaya duringthe emergency in Malaya. He was in charge when the British Army was given the go-ahead to round up civillians and re-settle them in camps, and to arrest union officials in Malaya who led strikes against this action. This gave the US military the idea that the same sort of thing might work in Vietnam.
In his book, 'Web of Deceit. Britain's Real Role in the World' Mark Curtis gives some details of SAS involvement alongside the Australian and New Zealand SAS in Vietnam. He also mentions MI6 helping the Malayan Government to tranfer arms and other supplies to South Vietnam, the British training US, Vietnamese and Thai troops at their jungle warfare school in Malaya during the late 1960s.
Intelligenge gathered from MI6 field hands in Hanoi was handed over to the US and the British monitoring station at Little Sai Wan in Hong Kong supplied information to the US until 1975 which was used to carry out air raids on North Vietnam.
Curtis does not name the British military advisor who went to Vietnam to assist with the fortified hamlet programme, but he supports his claim by giving reference to Hansard of April 1964 where the subject was brought up in parliament.
Britain also supplied the US with napalm and 500lb bombs during Harold Wilson's time as PM. The Conservatives simply carried on after Ted Heath became PM, no surprise there, but the idea that Wilson kept Britain out of Vietnam is a myth.
Mark Curtis mentions other British involvement in Vietnam in 'Unpeople-Britain's Secret Human Rights Abuses'. Tory Blur does not come out of either book well, but how could he? He was only carrying out orders. :slywink:

[ChrisGeorge]

Quote.......As a footnote: remember the American war in independance [1775 ? 1783]? Here was this superior militarial technological country [Great Britain] possessing the most powerful empire the world has seen....who were defeted by local militia, who knew the terrain well, and employed unorthodox methods of fighting.

The British beat the Americans at Lundys Lane in Niagara.They were attempting to take over Canada, the Brits stopped them. Remember the British Army was fighting over three thousand miles away from their home bases across the wild North Atlantic, getting men and supplies across by sailing ship. The men were in a poor condition after one of those voyages.
Visit the Forts in Kingston, Niagara, and in Erie, all the history of the battles are there, with memorials to many Liverpool Regiments including the Kings and also the Lancashire Fusileers.

As a historian of the American Revolution and the War of 1812 -- more the latter than the former, although I have written and lectured about the Revolution including on the participation of Liverpool's own Lt. Col. Banastre Tarleton (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4SUNA_enUS307US213&q=%22Banastre+Tarleton%22&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g10) -- I have to say that the British were at a severe disadvantage in both wars because of the vast geographical distances that they had to march and keep properly supplied.

Thus it was not only the Americans' superior local knowledge... and even that was not always the case. American commanders complained in the War of 1812 that escaped slaves, seeking their freedom, sometimes guided the British to their targets and had better local knowledge than the militia.

In the War of 1812, as in the Revolution, Britain and the Canadian militia were lucky to retain Canada -- having to defend thousands of miles of territory, but in the later war they were aided by the fact that the Americans despite their several attempts to "grab" Canada were not prepared to fight a war, were badly led at the beginning of the war, and suffered because of their over-reliance on poorly trained militia -- some New York Militia refused to cross the Niagara River to invade Ontario in October 1812, since they maintained that the law said they should only defend their own state.

Chris

[Waterways]

Poppycock! Let's not kid ourselves here? This 'motorised' army and superior Matilda II tanks would not have been able to sustain the effort had it not been for the creation of U.S. Lend-Lease act, in March 1940 [Germany invaded France May 1940] which cancelled US previous impartiality concerning conflicts overseas, and were now able to send aid [goods for loans] to whoever they saw fit - mostly to Britain & France. Without this aid our war would have finished in 1940. And a more 'primitive' [though effective] solider's on foot with dependable horse drawn carriages may have won the day for the Germans? So much for our preparedness? Epic FAIL on our part...and for Chamberlain.


It was not poppycock. Germany was no super industrial power. The UK alone stripped in in many fields of production. Economies win drawn out wars. Germany should not have won in 1940 as everything was against Germany winning. Allied ineptitude won it for them.

The 1933 German census gave 56.8% of the population in rural areas (towns less than 20,000 population) - Tooze, page 167. Tooze emphasises how backward German agriculture was. Tooze describes Germany as a medium sized workshop economy dependent on imported food. A situation Hitler did not like, as to him Germany had to be self sufficient in food and have as much natural resources as possible to compete on a world industrial scale. Hence the drive to steal land.

Cheap fast transportation, the steam ship and trains, had meant food could be transported between continents. This also prevented European famines. The USA and Canada were pouring out cereals super cheap which affected European agriculture setting it back. German, French and UK agriculture was mainly outdated to North America's. Global food production was in the hands of the USA and UK using the UK's sea lanes and massive merchant fleet to transport food - animal and human consumption. The UK produced food around its empire and other countries like the USA and Argentina linking it to the UK and empire with cheap to run and fast merchant ships. Liverpool was a massive grain importing and processing port.

This contrasts Germany with its smallholdings, who had more in common with backward agricultural nations as Ireland, Bulgaria and Romania, as Tooze emphasises. The UK had a backward agricultural system in parts, however controlled food importation across continents.

Germany would have been far better off making their backward agricultural system state-of-the-art in technology, rather than focussing its leading brains on war technology, then they would have had no need for war and grab other lands. This simple notion appears never to have occurred to them too much.

Anglo-French Alliance
In 1940 the Anglo-Franco alliance was that the French would provide the bulk of the land forces as their army was much larger. The UK would concentrate more on the navy and air - although France was large enough in these. The RN blockade of Germany was highly effective all through WW2 - Germany could not obtain essential alloys and rubber. At one time considering de-motorising the army because of no rubber.

Collectively the Anglo-French force dwarfed Germany's in 1940.

Only about 1/3 of the British Army went to France, the BEF. The French complained of the British luke-warm response. Those left in the UK had the latest off the production line equipment, which was not available to most in France. Also, the UK had a just introduced a tank in the Matilda 2 that the Germans could not knock out. A handful were used in France to great success. Canadian troops were bolstering the UK troops and the recruitment boot camps were turning out troops like wildfire. UK industry, which was bigger than Germany's in 1939, was working 24/7 to make up loses, as well as equipment bought from the USA.

US Aid:
Which was not aid as it had to be paid for and in gold initially stripping the UK of its gold reserves.

The UK pre-war did much trade with the USA and owned about 1/5 of US industry. The industry had to be sold off top US interests. Pre-war nearly 100% of the UK wheat came from the USA. Post 1939 they regarded this as war aid. Anything that was supplied as war aid. Deduct the normal trade and the so-called "aid" was not so great.



As a footnote: remember the American war in independance [1775 ? 1783]? Here was this superior militarial technological country [Great Britain] possessing the most powerful empire the world has seen....who were defeted by local militia, who knew the terrain well, and employed unorthodox methods of fighting.

In 1775 the UK did not have much of an empire. The UK pulled out as there was little to gain from retaining the 13 colonies. They made more more money from Jamaica than all of the 13 colonies.

[Waterways]

In the War of 1812, as in the Revolution, Britain and the Canadian militia were lucky to retain Canada -- having to defend thousands of miles of territory,

The US declared war on the UK. The UK went over to their country and took the war right to them even sacking the White House. When Canada was secure the UK pulled out as the had desires on US territory. Job done - the UK won. It was not a draw as many perceive the war to be.

[Waterways]

but the idea that Wilson kept Britain out of Vietnam is a myth.

This poppycock. Supplying some arms - the US also used Canberra bombers made by Martin in the US - and giving some advice and intelligence is not committing British forces. British troops were not on the ground, in the air or the seas around fighting.

Wilson kept us out. Many reading this would have been crawling through those jungles only for Wilson. And few would not have been reading this either.

[pablo42]

This poppycock. Supplying some arms - the US also used Canberra bombers made by Martin in the US - and giving some advice and intelligence is not committing British forces. British troops were not on the ground, in the air or the seas around fighting.

Wilson kept us out. Many reading this would have been crawling through those jungles only for Wilson. And few would not have been reading this either.

There were some on the ground WW. Not many, but some did serve in that theatre.

[Waterways]

There were some on the ground WW. Not many, but some did serve in that theatre.

Apart from assisting in intelligence etc, the UK committed none.

[pablo42]

Apart from assisting in intelligence etc, the UK committed none.

Don't you believe it WW. There weren't many granted.

[ChrisGeorge]

The US declared war on the UK. The UK went over to their country and took the war right to them even sacking the White House. When Canada was secure the UK pulled out as the had desires on US territory. Job done - the UK won. It was not a draw as many perceive the war to be.

To set you right, the Britain successfully defended Canada which leaves Canada to celebrate today what is still regarded as a great patriotic war. The United States successfully defended Baltimore and got a national anthem out of it. The British of some 8,000 under Major General Sir Edward Pakenham were soundly defeated at New Orleans on January 8, 1815 by a ragtag army under Major General Andrew Jackson. Pakenham's forces were devastated, some 2,000 casualties including Generals Pakenham and Gibbs mortally wounded, when the Americans behind defenses at the Rodriguez Canal fired at the British as they came over open land. The British attack strategy had gone totally awry when a feint on the western side of the Mississippi failed to occur as planned and the 44th Regiment under Col. the honorable Thomas Mullins failed to bring up the fascines (bundles of sticks) to fill in the canal, for which Mullins was court martialed. The defeat occurred after peace was signed at Ghent on Christmas Eve 1814. The Treaty of Ghent in effect held up the status quo, no one won. In fact, the war had arisen mostly because of maritime difficulties that were an outgrowth of the Napoleonic Wars. By late 1815, after Napoleon's final defeat at Waterloo, those difficulties no longer existed.

Chris

[dazza]

It was not poppycock. Germany was no super industrial power. The UK alone stripped in in many fields of production. Economies win drawn out wars. Germany should not have won in 1940 as everything was against Germany winning. Allied ineptitude won it for them.
The idea that Britain was 'prepared' for a long drawn out conflict was poppycock!!! The OP was me rubbishing Chamberlain as an inept PM, and was not directed at the off-tangent essay you gave on the lack of German technological development [at the offset]. You say that 'economies win wars', well Britain was almost bankcrupt by early 1941. After March 1941 our gold reserve had dwindled to such a state that the U.S were 'lending' us goods and supplies - to be paid for after the end of the war.


The 1933 German census gave 56.8% of the population in rural areas (towns less than 20,000 population) - Tooze, page 167. Tooze emphasises how backward German agriculture was. Tooze describes Germany as a medium sized workshop economy dependent on imported food. A situation Hitler did not like, as to him Germany had to be self sufficient in food and have as much natural resources as possible to compete on a world industrial scale. Hence the drive to steal land.

Cheap fast transportation, the steam ship and trains, had meant food could be transported between continents. This also prevented European famines. The USA and Canada were pouring out cereals super cheap which affected European agriculture setting it back. German, French and UK agriculture was mainly outdated to North America's. Global food production was in the hands of the USA and UK using the UK's sea lanes and massive merchant fleet to transport food - animal and human consumption. The UK produced food around its empire and other countries like the USA and Argentina linking it to the UK and empire with cheap to run and fast merchant ships. Liverpool was a massive grain importing and processing port.

Anglo-French Alliance
In 1940 the Anglo-Franco alliance was that the French would provide the bulk of the land forces as their army was much larger. The UK would concentrate more on the navy and air - although France was large enough in these. The RN blockade of Germany was highly effective all through WW2 - Germany could not obtain essential alloys and rubber. At one time considering de-motorising the army because of no rubber.

US Aid:
Which was not aid as it had to be paid for and in gold initially stripping the UK of its gold reserves.

The UK pre-war did much trade with the USA and owned about 1/5 of US industry. The industry had to be sold off top US interests. Pre-war nearly 100% of the UK wheat came from the USA. Post 1939 they regarded this as war aid. Anything that was supplied as war aid. Deduct the normal trade and the so-called "aid" was not so great..


Yes, the British Government decided to sell its gold reserves and dollar reserves to pay for munitions, raw materials and industrial equipment from American factories. By the third quarter of 1940 the volume of British exports was down 37% compared to 1935.

Although the British Government had committed itself to nearly $10,000 millions of orders from America, Britain's gold and dollar reserves were near exhaustion. The American Government decided to prop up Britain as it neared bankruptcy, so on 10 January 1941 they produced a Bill entitled an "Act to promote the defence of the United States" (its number, H.R. 1776, was the year of American independence) which was put before the United States Congress and which was enacted on 11 March 1941. This Act became known as Lend-Lease, whereby America would lend Britain equipment which she would pay for once the war had finished. One month later British gold and dollar reserves had dwindled to their lowest ever point, $12 million.

Under this new agreement with the American Government, Britain agreed not to export any articles which contained Lend-Lease material or to export any goods?even if British-made?which were similar to Lend-Lease goods. The American Government sent officials to Britain to police these requirements. By 1944 British exports had gone down to 31% from 1938.


In 1775 the UK did not have much of an empire. The UK pulled out as there was little to gain from retaining the 13 colonies. They made more more money from Jamaica than all of the 13 colonies.

A fair point. We where a fledgling empire, and didn't really get going until after 1815, with the defeat of Napoleon.

[jobee]

Phony Tony Bliar.
QUISLING and the cause of at least 100,000 deaths of Iraqi, Afghani and British Service people. The killing goes on.
Since leaving office has aquired a portfolio of ?18,000,000 of properties to live in, Earns 90,000 for an after dinner speech.
Yes a real good old fashioned Socialist is our Phony Tony.

He also today costs us who pay tax ?6,000,000 a year to keep him safe with Security, a lot more than it costs for Gordon Brown.



I liked Blair at first, but then he turned into a 'Jack the lad' killer.

He got flash, big headed, the 'Yanks will look after me' thing.

He doesn't seem to realize that most Brits want him to FO.---over there.

This country is not America.

[Waterways]

The idea that Britain was 'prepared' for a long drawn out conflict was poppycock!!! The OP was me rubbishing Chamberlain as an inept PM, and was not directed at the off-tangent essay you gave on the lack of German technological development [at the offset]. You say that 'economies win wars', well Britain was almost bankcrupt by early 1941.


As I have written, the UK/Franco GDP was 60% larger than Germany/Italy. Fact! The UK economy was as equal to Germany's economy in facing a drawn out war. The economy could cope with a drawn out conflict it would not collapse and history proves that was the case. At least the UK had a fully in place navy and a large bomber fleet. Germany was no more geared for a long war than the UK, and probably less, relying on reckless gambles that in France paid off. Hence why Speer was lauded as the industrial miracle makers in keeping German industry working under severe air attack.

In 1940 the UK did not envisage France falling, so sharing any economic war burden.

Tooze page 454:

"It was poor because of the incomplete industrial and economic development
of Germany".
(The economy and industry of Germany was deficient - silly to wage war)

These points, point to the foolishness of the Germans as they did not have
the ability to wage war against its larger neighbours.



After March 1941 our gold reserve had dwindled to such a state that the U.S were 'lending' us goods and supplies - to be paid for after the end of the war.


The gold dwindled because the USA saw an opportunity to asset strip the UK, whose buying ended the US soup lines. They would only take gold, while pre-war they never. 1941 is not 1940.



Although the British Government had committed itself to nearly $10,000 millions of orders from America, Britain's gold and dollar reserves were near exhaustion. The American Government decided to prop up Britain as it neared bankruptcy, so on 10 January 1941 they produced a Bill entitled an "Act to promote the defence of the United States" (its number, H.R. 1776, was the year of American independence) which was put before the United States Congress and which was enacted on 11 March 1941. This Act became known as Lend-Lease, whereby America would lend Britain equipment which she would pay for once the war had finished. One month later British gold and dollar reserves had dwindled to their lowest ever point, $12 million.


The British were doing the fighting for the USA using much of their materials, and they charged for them. To be fair the UK mainly used its own manufactured arms. The US mainly provided industrial machinery, raw materials and food.

There was a reverse lend-lease, where the UK provided goods the USA could not produce themselves.

Before the USA entered the war the UK was teaming up with the USA to build the A bomb. The UK MAUD Committee predicted the UK could build the bomb by itself ion around two years. One member disagreed and then they moved to get the financial support of the USA. The bomb was seen as an economic way of winning the war - despite the fear the Germans may be advanced in A bomb technology, which they were not.

During WW2 the UK economy "grew" 60%. Tooze: "It was poor because of the incomplete industrial and economic development
of Germany".
(The economy and industry of Germany was deficient - silly to wage war)

These points, point to the foolishness of the Germans as they did not have the ability to wage sustained war against its larger neighbours.

[Waterways]

I liked Blair at first, but then he turned into a 'Jack the lad' killer.


Being proactive in eliminating a tyrant who gasses people you mean. People were saying after WW2 that we should have done the same with Hitler in the mid 1930s.

If Saddam was in power causing wars you would be saying, "why didn't they go in when they could have and got rid".

[pablo42]

Being proactive in eliminating a tyrant who gasses people you mean. People were saying after WW2 that we should have done the same with Hitler in the mid 1930s.

If Saddam was in power causing wars you would be saying, "why didn't they go in when they could have and got rid".

There are many tyrants WW. Can't get them all.

[Waterways]

To set you right, the Britain successfully defended Canada which leaves Canada to celebrate today what is still regarded as a great patriotic war.

The New Orleans debacle was "after" the war was officially over. The British did not reply to the reversal as the war was over. If the UK pursued the 100% subjugation of the USA they could have. The army that defeated Napoleon was now free. The UK never, as the UK had no desires on US territory. The UK did not declare war on the USA. When the situation was to the UK's liking they drew up a treaty and went home. The USA was in no position to win any war. Trade with North America was more in the minds of the UK once Canada was secure and the USA not a threat.

You do not have occupy a country to win the war. Napoleon was defeated yet France largely went back to being France again. The British did not control France, nor did they want to. The threat was eliminated.

[Waterways]

There are many tyrants WW. Can't get them all.

The point is Iraq and one tyrant was got rid of. He was in a part of the world where the world's energy largely exists. He could screw up the world as well.

People should do a little more thinking and get it all into perspective.

[pablo42]

The point is Iraq and one tyrant was got rid of. He was in a part of the world where the world's energy largely exists. He could screw up the world as well.

People should do a little more thinking and get it all into perspective.

More to do with oil and revenge. He was offset in the Gulf by Iran. He weren't much of a threat.

[RonnieW]

There were some on the ground WW. Not many, but some did serve in that theatre.


Much the same as there were Soviets and Chinese helping the NVA and VC. In his books Curtis give more examples of the British helping the US in Vietnam under the Labour Government.
He also mentions Blair sending SAS detachments to Colombia to arm and train fascist death squads, technical experts to help keep Colombian helicopters flying (in the name of the anti-drugs war, but in reality to attack Colombian trade unionists), the chapters on Blair supporting Bush in starving the ordinary people of Iraq and denying them medicines are quite illuminating. How Labour Governments sold out the population of Tierra Del Fuego gets a long mention, how the Hawker Hunters used by the fascists in Chile to bring down the elected government of Allende were supplied by Harold Wilson's Government is in there.
All in all, the Labour Party are a total shower, but socialists have known this for generations.

[RonnieW]

More to do with oil and revenge. He was offset in the Gulf by Iran. He weren't much of a threat.

Quite right. I notice no Labour Government was ever up for removing the racists running South Africa, the maniacs running Korea, the head cases running Israel, so this business of getting rid of a tyrant is nothing more than a fig leaf for the poodle like behaviour of Tory Blur using British forces as a tool of American foreign policy.

[pablo42]

Much the same as there were Soviets and Chinese helping the NVA and VC. In his books Curtis give more examples of the British helping the US in Vietnam under the Labour Government.
He also mentions Blair sending SAS detachments to Colombia to arm and train fascist death squads, technical experts to help keep Colombian helicopters flying (in the name of the anti-drugs war, but in reality to attack Colombian trade unionists), the chapters on Blair supporting Bush in starving the ordinary people of Iraq and denying them medicines are quite illuminating. How Labour Governments sold out the population of Tierra Del Fuego gets a long mention, how the Hawker Hunters used by the fascists in Chile to bring down the elected government of Allende were supplied by Harold Wilson's Government is in there.
All in all, the Labour Party are a total shower, but socialists have known this for generations.

Some of that is certainly true.

[pablo42]

Quite right. I notice no Labour Government was ever up for removing the racists running South Africa, the maniacs running Korea, the head cases running Israel, so this business of getting rid of a tyrant is nothing more than a fig leaf for the poodle like behaviour of Tory Blur using British forces as a tool of American foreign policy.

You bet. They never went for Mugabe neither. That was a travesty. I was in Rhodesia and it was a very rich country before Mugabe.

[Waterways]

Much the same as there were Soviets and Chinese helping the NVA and VC. In his books Curtis give more examples of the British helping the US in Vietnam under the Labour Government.
He also mentions Blair sending SAS detachments to Colombia to arm and train fascist death squads, technical experts to help keep Colombian helicopters flying (in the name of the anti-drugs war, but in reality to attack Colombian trade unionists), the chapters on Blair supporting Bush in starving the ordinary people of Iraq and denying them medicines are quite illuminating. How Labour Governments sold out the population of Tierra Del Fuego gets a long mention, how the Hawker Hunters used by the fascists in Chile to bring down the elected government of Allende were supplied by Harold Wilson's Government is in there.
All in all, the Labour Party are a total shower, but socialists have known this for generations.

It sounds like an opinionated crap book with an agenda, much like yourself. You must a grid of your sycophantic tendencies.
Tierra Del Fuego?

[Waterways]

Quite right. I notice no Labour Government was ever up for removing the racists running South Africa, the maniacs running Korea, the head cases running Israel, so this business of getting rid of a tyrant is nothing more than a fig leaf for the poodle like behaviour of Tory Blur using British forces as a tool of American foreign policy.

After the word order changed post cold war, getting rid of tyrants was right up the list.

[pablo42]

It sounds like an opinionated crap book with an agenda, much like yourself. You must a grid of your sycophantic tendencies.
Tierra Del Fuego?

Don't hold back WW.

[Waterways]

Quite right.

I suspect this one is some sort of Tory plant - election coming up. All his post have been predominately anti- Blair and the Labour party. When given the record of Blair, what he did, the results, he ducks it.

[Waterways]

Don't hold back WW.

I suspect he is some sort of plant. I have seen it many times. The forums with big hits attract them at election times. The He could be a member of one of the local Tory branches or BNP or whatever. Oil and car companies clearly infiltrate the eco, energy forums. They are easy to spot - they deny man is effecting the climate. They deny non-fossil fuel energy is viable, they say there is no alternative to the inefficient, filthy internal combustion engine, etc.

[RonnieW]

Don't hold back WW.

I can't see what the demented clows has written! This 'Ignore' facility is superb! I've always supported 'No Platform for fascists' and here we have a message board with a 'No Platform for Deluded Blairites'!
Blair and Straw, what a pair! I'm glad my kids never got involved in drug dealing or collapsing in the street like theirs have.

I notice some left-wing people call Blair a fascist! That's not fair. The fascists made the trains run on time. Nobody could accuse New Labour of doing that!

[pablo42]

I can't see what the demented clows has written! This 'Ignore' facility is superb! I've always supported 'No Platform for fascists' and here we have a message board with a 'No Platform for Deluded Blairites'!
Blair and Straw, what a pair! I'm glad my kids never got involved in drug dealing or collapsing in the street like theirs have.

I notice some left-wing people call Blair a fascist! That's not fair. The fascists made the trains run on time. Nobody could accuse New Labour of doing that!

Ha, you're right about the trains.

[pablo42]

I suspect he is some sort of plant. I have seen it many times. The forums with big hits attract them at election times. The He could be a member of one of the local Tory branches or BNP or whatever. Oil and car companies clearly infiltrate the eco, energy forums. They are easy to spot - they deny man is effecting the climate. They deny non-fossil fuel energy is viable, they say there is no alternative to the inefficient, filthy internal combustion engine, etc.

I do't believe man is altering climate change.

[Waterways]

I can't see what the demented clows has written! This 'Ignore' facility is superb! I've always supported 'No Platform for fascists' and here we have a message board with a 'No Platform for Deluded Blairites'!


He reads everything I write I am certain. He carps on about Blair and largely out of domestic politics and is not PM, and offers nothing except wild opinons on him. As time goes on he will gravitate to Brown. Watch.

His tactic is negative, negative, negative, as they know that is what people vote on. Floating voters largely vote on whims on what they do not like.

[anonymouse]

Er, What was the question?

[Waterways]

I do't believe man is altering climate change.

I do and so do most scientists. Natural events, like large volcano eruptions, affect the climate for sure. Historical data proves that. The crap we are putting up there 24/7, and it is increasing because of India and China, must make an effect.

It also makes air filthy in urban areas. So cleaning it all up to clean up cities is well worth it - whether climate change is real or not.

[Waterways]

Er, What was the question?

Give us a clue.

[pablo42]

I do and so do most scientists. Natural events, like large volcano eruptions, affect the climate for sure. Historical data proves that. The crap we are putting up there 24/7, and it is increasing because of India and China, must make an effect.

It also makes air filthy in urban areas. So cleaning it all up to clean up cities is well worth it - whether climate change is real or not.


Yep, sure can't hurt to clean up our act.

[RonnieW]

I do't believe man is altering climate change.

Love it! All the Blair Babe has to do it take a look at my photos to see that I'm no Tory or BNP member, but when you're as right-wing as the Labour Party and its members are, I suppose photos of people on strike could cause heart attacks or worse!

[Waterways]

Yep, sure can't hurt to clean up our act.

That is what I want. If we clean up emissions, then emissions are down whether it is real or not.

[Waterways]

Love it! All the Blair Babe has to do it take a look at my photos to see that I'm no Tory or BNP member,

What are all those flags? You are also very fat.

[RonnieW]

Blair and Straw. The men who put the 'National' back into 'Socialism'. :)

[RonnieW]

http://bucf.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/513-new-labour-800.jpg

[Waterways]

http://bucf.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/513-new-labour-800.jpg

You are still very fat.

[pablo42]

You are still very fat.

Ha, why do you say that?

[wsteve55]

The US declared war on the UK. The UK went over to their country and took the war right to them even sacking the White House. When Canada was secure the UK pulled out as the had desires on US territory. Job done - the UK won. It was not a draw as many perceive the war to be.

A draw?? But such a pity the news of the the peace accord, never reached the Brit's/Scots troops, before the battle of New Orleans,where they were decimated by the militia's defending the town,basically because they had no ladders to scale the earthworks/defences!!!!

[wsteve55]

Ha, why do you say that?

Aye aye,haven't you started your diet!:unibrow:

[essexscouse]

I am sure I am one of the few that whilst i did not like ThatcheR she was right for her time we had a mining industry that would not accept it was bust but wanted the country to fund ongoing insolvency ditto British Leyland the mainreason she was re-elected was there was no credible Labour alternative I would also say the reason Blair was re-elected there was no credible Con alternative which brings us to today most of the country wants this government out and Cameron whilst hardly credible is acceptable only because the Brown out is so adamant
. I would also ask this question................ If the expenses malarkey was going on 30 years ago Who do you think would be up before the beak ?


Blair
Thatcher
Callaghan
Heseltine
Healy
Lamont
Churchill
Hume
Heath
add any other names you desire

[Waterways]

Ha, why do you say that?

I had another look at his anarchist party photos and was still fat.

[pablo42]

Aye aye,haven't you started your diet!:unibrow:

Ha, don't think he's talking about me. Well, hope not.

[pablo42]

I had another look at his anarchist party photos and was still fat.

Not nice though, all the same WW.

[RonnieW]

Not nice though, all the same WW.

Yes, it's not nice, but completely typical of the ignorant to refer to an 'anarchist party'. How could there ever be an 'anarchist' party except in the uncomprehending mind of inbred simpletons?


http://deandonaldson.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/new_labour.jpg

[pablo42]

Yes, it's not nice, but completely typical of the ignorant to refer to an 'anarchist party'. How could there ever be an 'anarchist' party except in the uncomprehending mind of inbred simpletons?


http://deandonaldson.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/new_labour.jpg

Don't seem that you two get on too well. Is there a history there?

[RonnieW]

Don't seem that you two get on too well. Is there a history there?


There certainly is! I can't stand these supporters of political parties who are out to do away with our civil liberties, who support dangerous nut case regimes (like George Bush for instance) who sell arms to dodgy didctators, who encourage racism, who run down the NHS, run down public transport, close schools and bomb babies in the Third World. You know, Labour Party hacks and others who support the rich. People like Watercloset for example.

[pablo42]

There certainly is! I can't stand these supporters of political parties who are out to do away with our civil liberties, who support dangerous nut case regimes (like George Bush for instance) who sell arms to dodgy didctators, who encourage racism, who run down the NHS, run down public transport, close schools and bomb babies in the Third World. You know, Labour Party hacks and others who support the rich. People like Watercloset for example.

Surely WW is against that too?

[RonnieW]

Surely WW is against that too?

He can't be. He supports the Labour Party. New Labour = Slave Labour!

[Waterways]

Yes, it's not nice, but completely typical of the ignorant to refer to an 'anarchist party'. How could there ever be an 'anarchist' party except in the uncomprehending mind of inbred simpletons?


Then why does your party have flags then? And many fat people waving them?

[Waterways]

Surely WW is against that too?

I am and do not wave flags and I am not fat.

[Waterways]

He can't be. He supports the Labour Party. New Labour = Slave Labour!

He is entertaining isn't he? He waves flags.

[Waterways]

Yes, it's not nice, but completely typical of the ignorant to refer to an 'anarchist party'. How could there ever be an 'anarchist' party except in the uncomprehending mind of inbred simpletons?



According to The Oxford Companion to Philosophy, "there is no single defining position that all anarchists hold,


There appears to anarchy within the anarchists.

Q. What does an anarchist taxi service look like?
A. The driver-passenger relationship represents an essential hierarchical relationship which must be broken down through long co-operative discussion and decision-making. Once all the occupants of the taxi are on equal terms, and those external to the taxi are aware and comfortable with their freedom to associate or disassociate with those within the taxi, discussions of possible destinations can begin in earnest.

Q: Why do anarchists always drink herbal tea?
A: Because proper tea is theft

[Samsette]

Soooo, can we have a show of hands to determine who was the worst PM?

I can't vote, as I don't live there, but I am curious about the outcome.

[captain kong]

Well Maggie Thatcher helped me when I was made redundant and when I left Bolton to seek seafaring employment at the Shipping Federation in Liverpool, even tho` I was registered there on my signing on day, No Ships In Bolton.
My own working class people at the Dole office in Bolton stopped my unemployment benefit, even tho I was looking for a ship. I wrote to Maggie Thatcher, she got my benefit re- installed. The people at the Dole Office complained that they nearly got the sack. I said they should have done then they would know what it feels like on this side of the counter.
In October I was looking for treatment at my local hospital, the NHS had closed down my department. I wrote to the Nu Labour Minister for Health, Andy Burnham, about it and was told I should not complain to the Minister.
I am still awaiting treatment.

SO Mr WaterWays. On Balance, Maggie has done me, a working class Lad more favours than this Marxist/ Trotski Government who line their own pockets at the expence of the working class.

I still think you are a closet Conservative.

[kdraper42]

Yes I left Liverpool in 1981, because of Maggie, that was the reason I left for Australia. She was destroying the North West . And I was not going to have my kids going through what we had to . We have since being in Australia. good employment, although not the best, wage problems, condition problems, the union here is very militant, thank God, and we do get some results. Having said that I do wish to, come back ,and retire in the country that I love. Keith xx

[kevin]

Well Maggie Thatcher helped me when I was made redundant and when I left Bolton to seek seafaring employment at the Shipping Federation in Liverpool, even tho` I was registered there on my signing on day, No Ships In Bolton.

Brian,
It's nice to read of a positive personal experience, but Maggie played a large part in decimating the British Shipyards and Merchant Navy.
When shipowners wanted tax breaks to order ships from British yards, instead of foreign, they were told they had to operate in a free market economy and they wouldn't be getting any help. Consequently, most ship owners built abroad. This sounds fair, except there wasn't a free market economy - many foreign ship yards were beeing subsidised by their goverments.

When ship owners wanted incentives to keep their businesses British, again the free market argument surfaced - so many ships went foreign flag. In reality, UK shipping companies were still shifting the same amount of tonnage around the world, but with chartered foreign vessels and increasingly foreign officers and crews.

The Falklands War could only be mounted because so many British Merchant Marine vessels could be used for all the support needed. I read an article about 18 months after that war that claimed that the Merchant Navy had shrunk so much it would no longer have been possible to mount a Falklands-like offensive.

So - besides everything else she did, I blame her for the demise of the British Merchant Navy.

Did you hear about the 'British' Ship kidnapped by Somalian pirates a few weeks ago? I wasn't the slightest bit surprised to hear that there wasn't one British person on board.

[captain kong]

That is correct Kevin. I was just making one particular point, the reason I was redundant was because Esso sold off all their tankers and charted in foreign flag tankers and with foreign crews.

[kevin]

That is correct Kevin. I was just making one particular point, the reason I was redundant was because Esso sold off all their tankers and charted in foreign flag tankers and with foreign crews.

When the company I worked for shrank considerably, many fellow officers were able to get jobs with foreign companies - as having officers with British tickets reduced insurance costs considerably. But it was a different matter for crew members - many of whom never worked again, at least not at sea.

I'm very proud of the time I spent at sea, and our history as a sea-going nation - but ashamed of what our politicans did to seafarers. We're an island race and will always have need of ships for imports and exports. Why should others profit from providing those services?

[Waterways]

SO Mr WaterWays. On Balance, Maggie has done me, a working class Lad more favours

Don't be silly Kong!

Kong, Kong, he got it wrong

[GNASHER]

IWhen given the record of Blair, what he did, the results, he ducks it.

That's the pot calling the kettle.
I have asked you two questions and you refuse to answer.
You called me a "BNP fan".I have asked you twice to explain why you think that.You declined to answer.
I asked you about your experiance in the building industry,again no answer.
After wading through some of your posts,I think I could have found the answers.
1. Anyone that will not agree with you that New Labours immigration policy is right you call a BNP fan/supporter/member.That's just your ignorance.
2. As you were/are some sort of gas fitter your knowledge of buildig will be minimal.
So, until you actualy know about a subject,insted of just posting 'facts' that you have pulled off the internet,I suggest you do everyone a favour and shut the f**k up.

[Waterways]

You called me a "BNP fan".


You do agree with BNP fans.



1. Anyone that will not agree with you that New Labours immigration policy is right you call a BNP fan/supporter/member.That's just your ignorance.


We are in the EU which is open borders. That is the way it is. Get used to it we have been in the EU for near 50 years now. British workers flooded Germany in the 1980s, so much they made a TV sit-com out of it.



2. As you were/are some sort of gas fitter your knowledge of buildig will be minimal.


Is it? Do not assume. Graduate engineer. My knowledge of buildings is extensive. What I did or am is irrelevant, if you have a technical topic debate it. It is clear you lost when you started the, "I have been doing this for x years" bit, which cuts no ice with me - do not confuse attendance with knowledge or intelligence. The building industry is famed for cowboys who understand little of buildings.

I see kevin agreed with you - equally as pathetic then.

[kevin]

I see kevin agreed with you - equally as pathetic then.


The main part I was agreeing with was:

'I suggest you do everyone a favour and shut the f**k up.'

Mainly, because that is the thought that often pops into my head when I'm reading your diatribes!
:PDT10:PDT10

[Waterways]

The main part I was agreeing with was:

'I suggest you do everyone a favour and shut the f**k up.'

Mainly, because that is the thought that often pops into my head when I'm reading your diatribes!
:PDT10:PDT10

Read them and understand them - it is easier that way.

[Robert Boulter]

OMG,ww,you are so annoying.Two legs good,four legs bad comes to mind.You must be one of the sheep,whilst most of us are like the horse,doing all the hard graft.So called intellectuals like you are idiots,all book and no street.Live in the real world,most people go into politics to do some good but become corrupted by the power(Blair).As the price of gold is at an all time high,why don't the 'New Labour' government sell our reserves to reduce the burden of high taxes and reduce the national dept.Its a good job Brown did'nt sell it when the price was at its lowest ever.Whoops,he did,maybe that why thing were so good.I show noalliegance to any political party but look at whats happening 'now' and who gives the best deal.Their all rubbish but some are worse than others.Its like listening to a scratched record,free your mind and take your blinkers off.

[captain kong]

LabourGordon Brown's decision to sell half of the UK's gold reserves 'cost UK ?5billion'
Gordon Brown's decision to sell off part of the country's gold reserves 10 years ago cost the public purse nearly ?5billion, official figures show.

By Christopher Hope, Whitehall Editor
Published: 7:01PM GMT 07 Jan 2009


Gordon Brown's decision to sell off half the UK's gold reserves cost ?5 billion Photo: REUTERS The sale of more than half of the country's gold reserves between 1999 and 2002 has proved to be deeply controversial.

Critics say that signalling such a large sale of bullion to gold traders helped to drive the precious metal to a 20-year low.

In 17 auctions, Mr Brown as Chancellor of the Exchequer sanctioned the sale of 395 tonnes of gold.

Figures released by the Treasury show that the total proceeds from the sales was around $3.5billion. According to a Parliamentary answer, if the gold was sold last month, on December 15, it would have raised $10.5billion.


This is from Todays Telegraph.
Mr WW will no doubt say it is a lie and a Tory Paper.
GORMLESS GORDON has lost us 7,000,000,000 US DOLLARS

[underworld]

The main part I was agreeing with was:

'I suggest you do everyone a favour and shut the f**k up.'

Mainly, because that is the thought that often pops into my head when I'm reading your diatribes!
:PDT10:PDT10

Did I see somewhere that Watersports had said that Blair was responsible for zero unemployment???

[RonnieW]

The Falklands War could only be mounted because so many British Merchant Marine vessels could be used for all the support needed. I read an article about 18 months after that war that claimed that the Merchant Navy had shrunk so much it would no longer have been possible to mount a Falklands-like offensive.

At the time, there was an article in one of the papers (I can't recall which one) saying that many of the Merchant Navy lads had sailed with their redundancy notices in their coat pockets.

For personal reasons, I'd say Thatcher just shades it over Blair. That's because my mum died while waiting an hour for an ambulance because of Tory cutbacks, my dad died because his cancer operation was delayed several times because of Tory cutbacks, same for my mother-in-law and her heart operation. No reflection on the staff at Broadgreen or the Royal who were brilliant.
But I suppose people will have similar tales to tell about Blair, especially when Labour closed Halton Hospital and left Runcorn, Widnes, Frodsham and Helsby with no hospital.
Labour also closed a secondary school in Runcorn and several primary schools. So much for 'Education, Education, Education'.
What a bunch of brigands these politicians are!

[Birdy]

Thanks to Labour?s investment more than 4,000 schools will have been built, rebuilt or refurbished by July 2010 since 1997 ? the biggest sustained period of school building since Victorian times. We have also brought forward almost ?1 billion of schools capital investment from 2010/11 to 2009/10 to support the economy during the recession

[RonnieW]

Thanks to Labour?s investment more than 4,000 schools will have been built, rebuilt or refurbished by July 2010 since 1997 ? the biggest sustained period of school building since Victorian times. We have also brought forward almost ?1 billion of schools capital investment from 2010/11 to 2009/10 to support the economy during the recession


Where is that quote taken from?

This one is from the 1997 Labour Manifesto.

"Labour will never force the abolition of good schools whether in the private or state sector."

By the way, they're closing another secondary school in Runcorn and one in Widnes soon. None of the schools closed by Labour in Halton since 2000 had a poor Ofsted report.
Every cloud has a silver lining and several Labour councillors who voted for school closures were voted out of office. Of course, several Labour councillors have their offspring educated outside of the Borough at Frodsham, Helsby and Warrington.

As for the closure of the hospital, Warrington couldn't cope and some wards at Halton had to be re-opened. Once again, the cloud had quite a good silver lining when the Trust Chairman (and Labour councillor) who closed the hospital lost what he thought was a safe Labour seat to a Lib-Dem who had been a patient at Halton Hospital. Also getting the boot was another Labour hack who had been the longest serving councillor on HBC. Not quite as good as Portillo, but quite satisfying.

[underworld]

Looks like Brown is on the ropes again. Seems his leadership is being called into question again. I was looking at the results of a Yougov survey yesterday and I think it was over 60% of those questioned thought Brown was doing a bad job. Ive been expecting this latest wobble and I think that if Labour stand any chance at all, they will have to go into the next election with a new leader. This one may just snowball. (Snowball. Get it, eh eh?)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8443769.stm

[pablo42]

Looks like Brown is on the ropes again. Seems his leadership is being called into question again. I was looking at the results of a Yougov survey yesterday and I think it was over 60% of those questioned thought Brown was doing a bad job. Ive been expecting this latest wobble and I think that if Labour stand any chance at all, they will have to go into the next election with a new leader. This one may just snowball. (Snowball. Get it, eh eh?)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8443769.stm

He's been there before though. I can't see how they can win an election with him in charge.

[underworld]

Hoon and Hewitt are behind this one. They are Political Heavies and I have a feeling that this one is going to be different. Any move to out Brown has to be done now as its the only chance Labour have. This is the only way in my opinion, that they can possibly win the next election. Axe Brown, have an election straight away.

[pablo42]

Hoon and Hewitt are behind this one. They are Political Heavies and I have a feeling that this one is going to be different. Any move to out Brown has to be done now as its the only chance Labour have. This is the only way in my opinion, that they can possibly win the next election. Axe Brown, have an election straight away.

I'd have to agree with you. Brown is unelectable. Don't think he's been a bad Prime Minister. He's just committed the ultimate sin. He was unlucky.

[Waterways]

Thanks to Labour?s investment more than 4,000 schools will have been built, rebuilt or refurbished by July 2010 since 1997 ? the biggest sustained period of school building since Victorian times. We have also brought forward almost ?1 billion of schools capital investment from 2010/11 to 2009/10 to support the economy during the recession

Good post Birdy.

Just stating the raw facts pre the CC, is all the current government have to do.
The facts are indisputable.
The gvmt are a great success from 1997 until the CC.
They also faired brilliantly in the CC preventing soup lines.
They are the people, who have proven brilliant at economic management, to take us fully out of the CC

[Waterways]

Looks like Brown is on the ropes again.

Oh my God! he is going by polls, which change like the wind. All the gvmt have to do is state their record from 1997 to the CC and the way they put together the strategy to pull the world put of it.

Selective amnesia sets in.

[Waterways]

He's been there before though. I can't see how they can win an election with him in charge.

People hopefully will see past the media character assassination and see the competence and experience of the man. We Need this admin in charge to take us out of the CC. They have the experience and competence to do it.

God help us if that bunch of Hurray Henry old schoolboy clique get in power.

Campbell is yet to to surface. Wait!

[RonnieW]

Hoon and Hewitt are behind this one. They are Political Heavies and I have a feeling that this one is going to be different. Any move to out Brown has to be done now as its the only chance Labour have. This is the only way in my opinion, that they can possibly win the next election. Axe Brown, have an election straight away.

I'd say the biggest problem political parties have is trying to convince people to vote at all. People seemed browned (get it!) off with politicians, especially since most of them were caught with their hands in the till.
All those years under the Tories and people thought their lives would improve under Labour, and look at what we've got? So, many people reach the conclusion that no political party will represent them, and they're quite right.
In 1994, Labour MP Roy Hattersley suggested that ?the working class would continue to vote for Labour whatever the party does?. When many members of the working class stayed at home for the 2001 General Election, Jack Straw described the low turnout as ?the politics of contentment?.
Such is the arrogance of these people.

[Max]

http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/64/6064-004-FE2393DC.jpg

Voting in Cameron will anger his spirit, you must not anger the dead.

Lib Dems don't look different to Labor judging off little of what i've read either.

Clegg made a good point in this article though, low income earners pay horribly high taxes like my mum does.

http://www.libdems.org.uk/our_campaigns_detail.aspx?title=Fair_taxes_at_the_ heart_of_Liberal_Democrat_message_&pPK=799f14f0-5b51-4d92-89b8-206c615b33bb

Not been sure about them either since the Liverpool Lib Dems are thieves still though.

I agree with Waterways about the selective amnesia, i don't remember so much complaining about Labor until Blair agreed to Iraq and then the newspapers exaggerated alot of crap too. Before 2003, there was no relevant complaints.

Stuff like benefits for people who need them outside of JSA have improved since Labor got in too. I remember all the scaffoldings in Calderstones in 97 fixing all the leaking buildings and they have had more new buildings built since so there has been some good out of Labor.

Maybe i miss a few things because i get bored reading newspapers.

[RonnieW]

don't remember so much complaining about Labor until Blair agreed to Iraq and then the newspapers exaggerated alot of crap too. Before 2003, there was no relevant complaints.

There was that business with Bernie Ecclestone and the donation. There was Billy Straw selling drugs to a Daily Mirror reporter and Euan Blair collapsed drunk in the street and underage too. Robinson's dodgy loan to Mandelsson. Roger Liddle and the 'cash for access' scandal. Cronyism. Keith Vaz promising one of his lawyer friends some kind of 'honour'.
There was The Dome, Blair's appointment of Heseltine and Patten to government commitees (although how two more Tories in the Labour Party along with the rest of them came as a surprise is anyones guess). Derry Irvine's flat. Small stuff compared to immoral sanctions and wars, but they were going to "clean up politics" back in 1997.

All in all, they're no better than the Tories. Who have had Cecil Parkinson, Stephen Norris, Alan Clarke, all serial adulterers. Insider dealing, Piers Merchant, Aitken, Major doing the dirty on Norma with Edwina Currie (Back to Basics?), RAB Butler having a fling with one of the Kray twins as well as Harold McMillian's wife.

At least no dogs were shot!:slywink:

[Waterways]

Euan Blair collapsed drunk in the street

What world are you in? Waved any flags today?

[Waterways]

I'd say the biggest problem political parties have is trying to convince people to vote at all.

Many people see the system stronger than the political parties. This the case in the USA. They then trust the system and do not vote.

In the UK there is much sway between when parties get in. It does matter what you vote, hence why more British vote than Americans.

Introduce Land Value Tax (no income tax) and we will go more to the USA ways.


without a knowledge of [the law of rent] which, it is impossible to understand the effect of the progress of wealth on profits and wages, or to trace satisfactorily the influence of taxation on different classes of the community;
- David Ricardo

[pablo42]

Many people see the system stronger than the political parties. This the case in the USA. They then trust the system and do not vote.

In the UK there is much sway between when parties get in. It does matter what you vote, hence why more British vote than Americans.

Introduce Land Value Tax (no income tax) and we will go more to the USA ways.


without a knowledge of [the law of rent] which, it is impossible to understand the effect of the progress of wealth on profits and wages, or to trace satisfactorily the influence of taxation on different classes of the community;
- David Ricardo

C'mon then WW, who is your worst PM? Just one line will do.

[Ernie]

As far as I"m concerned all MP"s are tarred with the same brush out for themselves and to hell with the people, also Water ways is just sniping from behind the safety of his keyboard, lighten up, cheers Ernie:PDT_Aliboronz_24:

[pablo42]

As far as I"m concerned all MP"s are tarred with the same brush out for themselves and to hell with the people, also Water ways is just sniping from behind the safety of his keyboard, lighten up, cheers Ernie:PDT_Aliboronz_24:

Ha, nice one Ernie.

[Waterways]

C'mon then WW, who is your worst PM? Just one line will do.

Thatcher of course. That goes without saying.

[captain kong]

I still think that WW is a closet Conservative, his rantings have turned me off voting for Nu-Labour

[captain kong]

NEWS FLASHMy old mate George Skelly, of Cameo Conspiracy fame, is on Radio Merseyside talking about Inspector Balmer and the Burns and Devlin case. Dont miss it.

[Waterways]

I still think that WW is a closet Conservative,

I am an ABC Anyone But Conservative. I would vote Monster Raving Loony before them.

[Birdy]

They appear to have a better manifesto than the Tories :)

http://www.loonyparty.com/index.php?page=manifestoproposals-1

[captain kong]

I am an ABC Anyone But Conservative. I would vote Monster Raving Loony before them. WW.

I voted for the MONSTER RAVING LOONEY PARTY a few years ago.

THEY WERE THE ONLY ONES WHO TOLD THE TRUTH.

[RonnieW]

NEWS FLASHMy old mate George Skelly, of Cameo Conspiracy fame, is on Radio Merseyside talking about Inspector Balmer and the Burns and Devlin case. Dont miss it.


When? I hope he's going to write a book about that case.

[captain kong]

Sorry about that George is on Radio Merseyside at 1130 today Fridayu. abouit Balmer and the Burns and Devlin case/
Cheers

[wsteve55]

As far as I"m concerned all MP"s are tarred with the same brush out for themselves and to hell with the people, also Water ways is just sniping from behind the safety of his keyboard, lighten up, cheers Ernie:PDT_Aliboronz_24:

Yeh,lets get rid of them, and replace them with angels!!:rolleyes:

[pablo42]

Yeh,lets get rid of them, and replace them with angels!!:rolleyes:

Ha, sounds like you know politicians too.