Once caught the end of a

radio prog with FrankCarsyile he was talkin about victorian shops below Church st, that are still there?? is this true? does anyone know?

Sounds like those smaller shops further up Church street - the ones just before

you get to the Disney store. Can't think what they are off the top of my head - I think one of them is called 'Past Times' .. anyway, those buildings are

old.

nah

Lindy, underground, via a sealed up entrance, mystery?/

oh. no .. I havn't heard about that.

Apparently via a door to the rear of the cop shop, since sealed , an underground

marketplace, however i might have dreamed it

I've heard many rumours of things like that in various towns. I suppose it's possible, although the

railway line runs underneath there too...

There is an underground 'street' under the old Kwik Fit garage on Renshaw

Street which I've been in (doesn't go far but shows some bricked up arches/windows. There is a massive tunnel system, however, in the basement of JJB

sports. It's almost temping to get a day job there just to explore!!

Which JJB is that?

There's only 1 now isn't there? In Williamson Square.

oh my god! This all sounds exciting!!!

I don't want to put a damper on this thread, but I don't think there are any buried streets in Liverpool.
When JJB were in Lord Street they occupied part of what had been the Lord Street Arcade, but that was above ground, like the Wayfarer's Arcade in Southport.

There are loads of buried streets in Liverpool - I've been in them!!

The first one is under what is the Cellar of the Dispensary pub on Renshaw Street. The only access to it is via a drain in what used to be Kwik Fit's Garage next door. At one time, this corridor linked up most of Renshaw street looking at old plans!

wow! again!
you and snappel are our heroes!!!

tunnel exploration is the best!!!

do you have any more pics/info like this??

LOL - Snappel is our above ground guide!! Me and heights don't mix that well as I found out when standing on top of the 'Birds Nest' at the top of the Municipal Buildings (Council Offices) hanging on to the iron railing for life!

I know lots around the City Centre underground but you'll have to ask the questions so I can give answers hehe. :)

LOL - Snappel is our above ground guide!! Me and heights don't mix that well as I found out when standing on top of the 'Birds Nest' at the top of the Municipal Buildings (Council Offices) hanging on to the iron railing for life!

I know lots around the City Centre underground but you'll have to ask the questions so I can give answers hehe. :)


How about a list?

That's like asking Snappel which buildings he's been in to in Liverpool :)

If you've got something that you want some history on, give me a shout. Don't know everything there is to know but I have been in some unusual places! Far easier than listing all the places I've been in to...why there could be cops on the forum LOL :eek: :)

I'd like you to tell about the underground streets, which you say there are lots of.
If I've never heard of them, how can I ask specific questions?

It all depends on what area of the city centre you are looking at. Certainly there once was a large underground street running along Renshaw Street from the situation of the small street that I gained access to but there are other tunnels around the area too.

The Hearse route in to St James Cemetery would have been an interesting route to take - now all bricked up though.

Over by the Town Hall, there is an Ice House underground which can still be gained access to - with permission. At the back of the Town Hall you've got a tunnel running south east under the High Street and in the north west corner you've got another tunnel running under Exchange Street West.

Other strange places include the shop in Bold Street which has a well shaft going down to water - can't think of the name of the cafe now!

Far less known is a tunnel that is rumoured to run from St Georges hall to the statue at the bottom of London Road - this was mentioned by an old guide but nothing seems to have been looked in to.

The most interesting system which I've yet to look in to is the Bookshop on Fazakerley Street which houses what appeares to be a bridewell in the basement - me thinks I need to pay a visit!!

Thanks Jona76.

Let's just stick to underground streets.
Surely the one in Renshaw Street would have been documented?
There is a book called "Underground Liverpool" by Jim Moore.
It mentions most of the tunnels which you list, but there is nothing about underground streets.
There was an arcade of shops running down the back of Bold Street before Central Station was built in the 1860s, but they weren't underground.
The buildings on Renshaw Street near Oldham Street (the oldest ones) were built on open land (at a guess no earlier than the mid 19th century).
Renshaw Street, like Bold Street, had been a ropewalk.

BTW, the Hearse route on the Hope Street side of the Cemetery contains funeral vaults, not tunnels.

Hi Philip

I also have the Jim Moore book Underground Liverpool, and I would count Mr. Moore as an authority. I would be less likely to credit Freddy O'Connor as an authority at least in his contention, on the other thread we have ongoing, that there were underground passages connecting the Vines to the river that were used for smuggling. I believe Mr. Moore deals with facts but to my mind Mr. O'Connor, at least in making that statement, is buying into legend and rumor rather than actual fact.

And getting back to this idea that there are streets below the current Liverpool streets, there may be underground passages below the present-day streets, I don't deny that possibility, but are there actual shops, as the title of this thread states, "Shops underneath Church street" would indicate, that there were "Victorian" shops down there?

Chris

Surely the one in Renshaw Street would have been documented?

It all depends on who has found them and whether they expressed an interest in bringing these to light. There must have been many Kwik Fit bods that had been down there due to the recent rubbish that we found yet it took a chance phone call for me to find out about it.
There are probably lots of places like this in Liverpool in which people have seen and haven't really thought that there are people like us that are interested in them.

Once caught the end of a radio prog with FrankCarsyile he was talkin about victorian shops below Church st, that are still there?? is this true? does anyone know?


Hi Chris
Just looked back to the start of this thread, and Simon simply thinks there were shops, and he only thought this is what he heard...so to go on only something you thought you heard, we have got a pretty great discussion on here!!

Thanks Jona, for all info! and for being a tunnel legend!!

Think i need to confirm what i heard on BBC radio, Frank did say it was an underground street, streetlights, ect, at the top of Church st, still there apparently, shop windows however, now bricked up, but were retail units, below ground level. Sounds like the Renshaw st, site, if true, sorry guys, wish id heard more.

Think i need to confirm what i heard on BBC radio, Frank did say it was an underground street, streetlights, ect, at the top of Church st, still there apparently, shop windows however, now bricked up, but were retail units, below ground level. Sounds like the Renshaw st, site, if true, sorry guys, wish id heard more.

Very interesting, Simon.

Church Street or Renshaw Street, there would have been a major reason for "burying" a street.
And that would have made news at the time, and therefore there would be records of it.
Liveerpool has many legends of tunnels, but not one of a buried street.
On the other hand, there was part of Nevill Street in Southport which was filled in.
That is well documentated.

I can't help remembering in all this tunnel/no tunnel talk that we now have thermal imaging which could, if only someone'd pay for the helicopter, clear all this and all the other legends of tunnels up once and for all....

Not as much fun though.

excellent idea.
but, as you say....not as much fun!
do you think we could get a lottery grant to do the thermal stuff?:)

Last note on this guys, Frank C has a couple of dvds out Liverpool, unseen and Liverpool unoticed, im sure someone knows him or can reach him, to ask what the heck he was on about,feel a bit silly starting this thread but thank you everyone for your interest,Ref the dvds ive yet to get these titles, if anyone has them are they good???

oohhhh i would like to have a look at them too,...

Frank C has a website

http://www.frankcarlyle.com/
i have just emailed with FAO Frank C...

lets see if we can clear this up!

Frank C has a website

http://www.frankcarlyle.com/
i have just emailed with FAO Frank C...

lets see if we can clear this up!

Did you get an answer Carrie?

Nope...no answer as yet....:neutral:

Very interesting:)

Nope...no answer as yet....:neutral:

Just knock on the table, and if there are three knocks back.... :celb (23):

Friday, 25 October, 2002, 01:14 GMT 02:14 UK
The enigma of Liverpool's labyrinth


A section of the tunnels is now open to the public



By Christine Jeavans
BBC News Online


Tycoon Joseph Williamson dug a vast, bizarre network of tunnels under Liverpool almost 200 years ago. Were they the city's first job creation scheme, a rich man's whimsy or a shelter from the end of the world?

At ground level there is little clue to the secret harboured deep beneath the surface of Liverpool's Edge Hill area.
A church, a school, a police station and student accommodation for the nearby universities compete for space with a railway cutting and roads leading down to the city centre.


Lynn Podmore: "We still haven't explored all the tunnels"

But tucked away on a side street is the entrance to a warren of tunnels hollowed out by an eccentric millionaire in the early 19th century.

They have been the stuff of Merseyside legend for decades but the truth is stranger than any fireside story.

Now with the opening of a section of tunnels, the public can for the first time gain access to the underground kingdom of Joseph Williamson, tobacco magnate, philanthropist, recluse and "mad mole".


Gothic arches

The portal to this subterranean realm is almost mundane: a wide, arching tunnel, looking rather like a French wine cellar, hewn out of sandstone and partly lined with brick.

But there is an eerie drip, drip of unseen water ahead and lights pick out gothic arches in the distance, giving the whole place something of a church crypt atmosphere.


In pictures: Williamson's tunnels
Click here for more images
Stepping forward through the gloom, the space opens out into a cave-like room which drops away beneath a platform.

It is a barrel-shaped tunnel with a beautifully constructed arch of sandstone blocks as the ceiling.

Earth is still piled up on the floor, far below the scaffold gantry that visitors pass along.

Who was Williamson?
Born 10 March 1769 in Warrington
Moves to Liverpool aged about 11 to seek his fortune
Finds work at tobacco and snuff firm of Richard Tate
Rises through the ranks and marries the boss's daughter, Elizabeth, in 1802
In 1803 buys the family firm and builds mansions in Edge Hill
As construction work finishes he turns to building tunnels
Napoleonic Wars end in 1815 and Williamson takes on unemployed soldiers
Elizabeth dies in 1822 and he immerses himself in the tunnel project but it saps his fortune
Williamson dies aged 70 in 1840 from water on the chest
Volunteers have so far removed tonnes of soil, rubble and 160 years' rubbish out of the tunnels - and there is still a long way to go.

Between 1805 and his death in 1840, Williamson employed thousands of men digging out a network underneath land that he owned in Edge Hill.

It seems to have started logically enough - a few cellars and ground level arches behind the mansions that he was building so that the back gardens could be extended despite the sloping terrain.

But while these constructions had a purpose, the next are a puzzle.

Williamson set his gangs of men burrowing in all directions but most of the tunnels lead nowhere.

Some just come to an abrupt halt, others intersect another part of the labyrinth. There are even tunnels within tunnels.

Maze

One of these double-decker tunnels makes a spectacular feature at the section of the network newly opened to the public.


The tunnels were hacked out by hand - as the pickaxe marks reveal

According to the site's Heritage Manager, Lynn Podmore, there are even more unusual constructions to be explored.


"We still don't know where each one leads, and we are finding new tunnels all the time," she says.
"There is a triple-decker tunnel under the carpark here and a completely different section has just been found up the road."


Click here to see a map of the tunnels
Back within the barrel-shaped chamber, the tunnel twists, turns, narrows and changes level.

Smaller tunnels and chimneys head off into the darkness.

Mapping the maze has not been easy. Williamson was notoriously secretive about his creation and no contemporary plan of the whole network survives.

Philanthropy

The lack of documentary evidence has prompted endless speculation about why the tunnels were built.

One popular theory is that he was *****ed by social conscience.

In the early 19th century, men who had been fighting the Napoleonic wars were flooding back to Britain - and were in need of jobs.


More than 100 years of rubbish was found in the tunnels

Williamson, it is said, responded to the poverty around him by creating work, whether it really needed doing or not.

Another story puts the tycoon as a member of an extreme religious sect that believed that Armageddon was on the way.

The tunnels therefore were a place of sanctuary for Williamson and for fellow believers to flee to and emerge from to start a new city once God had wreaked his vengeance on the world.

A more prosaic image is of a man obsessed by his project, who, when his wife died in 1822, withdrew ever deeper into his subterranean empire, even building living rooms and a banqueting hall down there.

Some people find the lack of answers frustrating but others, like Lynn Podmore, enjoy the idea of an enigma with no solution.

"We're so certain about everything these days - it's good to have a mystery," she says.

"But of course we are still trying to find out as much as we can about Williamson."

Secret legacy

That job is not made any easier by the fact that his housekeeper sold all his personal documents after he died aged 70 in 1840.

Lynn is hopeful that some records will turn up or that the people of Liverpool may have a vital piece of oral history passed down through the generations - although she admits that Williamson may be spinning in his grave at the thought.

"He would be mortified if he knew that we had found all this and people were tramping through - he tried to keep it secret all his life," she says.

The Williamson Tunnels and heritage centre are open daily except Mondays 1000 - 1700.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


hope this was usefull to you, ian.

Thanks for your first post Ianw :). More info on The Mole of Edge Hill can be found: Here (http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1741&highlight=williamson+tunnels)

I have the Frank Carlyle dvd's and indeed he is shown at the entrance to a bricked up tunnel under the Town Hall and mentions others that ran to the Mersey that too are bricked up.

My dad worked as the Foreman in St. George's Hall throughout the late 70s and early 80s and used to take me and my mates to places usually unseen such as a very cold underground room known as the Drs. Rooms - there is also a cats grave down there complete with tombstone and vase of flowers and there were many drops. He then took us down a passage where you could see daylight streaming in - he told us to look up and were were looking up at the underside of the grids that face out up to Lime St on the Planteau.

There were many old pre decimal pennies down there and bar six and spangles wrappers and the likes that had been dropped or discarded over time. We used to go on the main roof too which still had a WWII air raid siren but in all our explorations down by the main boilers etc (and even during the time the Lime St loop underground was getting built - which put paid to our visits) Although there were strange little openings that you had to stoop down in order to access, they all ended up in rooms and we never came across any real mysterious open or bricked up tunnels.

The Walker Art Gallery, also where he worked, Brougham Terrace and The Education offices in Sir Thomas Street also had interesting basements/cellars but all whitewashed and too 'normal' - used as storage areas.

grrrrrrrrrrr i am so jealous!!!!! you haven't got any pics have you?:)

Unfortunately not. Being in my early teens, capturing it on camera just didn't strike me, wish my dad had thought of it though. The good news, it's still there ha ha, just try getting into it though.

On another one of my early teens adventures, me and my mates were being legged by some gypsies who'd said 'come here' in an agressive tone so we gave them the finger and were promptly chased. Anyway, we were down by Pall Mall so we scaled this wall and dropped, it was the wrong thing to do because there were gypsy caravans down there on some waste land. Anyway we lost them but found this tunnel entrance. There were a few of us so we felt brave and entered in. For what seemed like an hour and miles (but we found out later it wasn't) we delved further and further into it, we knew we must have been going uphill as the light at the beginning of the tunnel as we looked back was getting smaller towards the arched entrance.

Along the way we could hear water dripping and make out damp patches up on the brick arched tunnel ceiling and walls as light was streaming in up ahead, just like a square block of light (in a sort of beam me up scotty fashion but square) My mates foot went down the edge of a hole so we stopped, picked up a little stone and dropped it down the hole, after a few seconds we heard it hit water. That worried us as we wondered how deep and if there were any more of these holes. We carried on up the light, the idea being we'd get out somewhere up here. When we got to it and looked up we could see Fontenoy Gardens landings and stairwell above us and loads of old rubbish like bike frames, prams, mattresses, cushions and bags had been dumped down there. We knew we were at the Byrom Street railway cutting now but the walls were sheer, there was no way out at this point.

We decided to walk on a bit further and saw another shaft of light beaming down, a smaller round stream of light. We got to it and looked up, it was a shaft and we could see the clouds moving across it. Up ahead we could see nothing but blackness, behind us the original tunnel entrance had well vanished but of course we could still see the previous light coming down from Byrom Street. We retraced our footsteps, very carefully and that night we got our Liverpool A-Z out and realised that we'd walked through the old Waterloo goods line that once went from Waterloo dock up to Edge Hill and the smaller shaft of light turned out to be a ventilation shaft that still exists behind the newish Norton street coach terminus but of course that wasn't there then, just a load of old delapidated property.

excellent!

My first proper job was with a Company called Bearings NW which was situated at 50 Renshaw Street. I was told that there was a system of tunnels underneath it which extended up to Lime Street station?

True or false, I never found out, but behind the shop fronts of Renshaw Street were [still is] many alleyways leading to small holdings / stables etc like a lost village.

that is amazing!
i am sure jona will be having a little look!!:celb (23):

My first proper job was with a Company called Bearings NW which was situated at 50 Renshaw Street. I was told that there was a system of tunnels underneath it which extended up to Lime Street station?

True or false, I never found out, but behind the shop fronts of Renshaw Street were [still is] many alleyways leading to small holdings / stables etc like a lost village.


Spot on and true! I was down one of these alleyways a few years back dropping through one of the man hole covers which was in Kwik Fit. It was obvious that the alleyway pointed in the direction of Lime Street and I'm sure if I was to contact more shops with cellar access, they'd come across more of em. :)

There was certainly a warren of subterranean streets under Exchange Flags, containing homes and shops. This is recorded in some detail by Herman Melville (of Moby **** reknown) in, I think, his youthful work, Redburn, His First Voyage (1849).
A wonderful book, incidentally, that recalls the author's adventures crossing the Atlantic as a poverty-stricken boy sailor in 1837 and spending six weeks, while his ship was berthed in prince's Dock, wandering the streets of Liverpool and writing in great detail of all he experienced. One of the finest books about Liverpool I know and highly recommended reading- but I don't know if, unlike his better-known stuff, it was ever reprinted in modern times.

Redburn, His First Voyage is available as an ebook.

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext05/8redb10h.htm

:002:

Brilliant. All of you should get it now!

There was certainly a warren of subterranean streets under Exchange Flags, containing homes and shops. This is recorded in some detail by Herman Melville (of Moby **** reknown) in, I think, his youthful work, Redburn, His First Voyage (1849).
A wonderful book, incidentally, that recalls the author's adventures crossing the Atlantic as a poverty-stricken boy sailor in 1837 and spending six weeks, while his ship was berthed in prince's Dock, wandering the streets of Liverpool and writing in great detail of all he experienced. One of the finest books about Liverpool I know and highly recommended reading- but I don't know if, unlike his better-known stuff, it was ever reprinted in modern times.

Thanks to Shytalk, I've done a search in "Redburn" for these subterranean streets, with, so far, no luck.
Knowhowe, would you please tell us where we can find the information?
What chapter is it in?
I've also got the Penguin version of the book, if you know the page.
Thanks.

I'd heard stories about stuff underneath Exchange Flags. Wouldn't surprise me, as it was an important trading area - I'm sure there would have been extensive vaults and basements. Now though, it's a carpark isn't it? There's a ventilation shaft that comes up beneath the statue in the middle of the flags.

I'd heard stories about stuff underneath Exchange Flags. Wouldn't surprise me, as it was an important trading area - I'm sure there would have been extensive vaults and basements. Now though, it's a carpark isn't it? There's a ventilation shaft that comes up beneath the statue in the middle of the flags.

The car park was built in the 1950s as an early example of an underground car park, when the present Exchange Buildings were erected.
I've never heard that it replaced anything else.
The Town Hall was originally called the Exchange, and the buildings behind are the third to be called Exchange Buildings.
Both Exchange Buildings and the Town Hall, and the Nelson Monument are well documented, but there's never been any mention of anything else underground.

The car park was built in the 1950s as an early example of an underground car park, when the present Exchange Buildings were erected.
I've never heard that it replaced anything else.
The Town Hall was originally called the Exchange, and the buildings behind are the third to be called Exchange Buildings.
Both Exchange Buildings and the Town Hall, and the Nelson Monument are well documented, but there's never been any mention of anything else underground.


There is the Ice House under the Town Hall which no one seems to know about. A good friend of mine went in last year and took some pictures, I'll see if he's still got em on E-mail and upload em and exactly where it is.

Frank Carlyles Liverpool unseen dvd shows him under the Town Hall but the tunnels seem to have been capped off/bricked up.

There was certainly a warren of subterranean streets under Exchange Flags, containing homes and shops. This is recorded in some detail by Herman Melville (of Moby **** reknown) in, I think, his youthful work, Redburn, His First Voyage (1849).
A wonderful book, incidentally, that recalls the author's adventures crossing the Atlantic as a poverty-stricken boy sailor in 1837 and spending six weeks, while his ship was berthed in prince's Dock, wandering the streets of Liverpool and writing in great detail of all he experienced. One of the finest books about Liverpool I know and highly recommended reading- but I don't know if, unlike his better-known stuff, it was ever reprinted in modern times.

Hi Steve

Redburn is available as a cheaply available modern paperback from Penguin or Doubleday. I have a copy. It is also available as a free ebook (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/8118) from Gutenberg.

Chris

Hmm, yes. My mistake, it seems re the reference appearing in Redburn. I was sure it did, but having (yet again) picked it up to check- and inevitably getting hopelessly distracted by the wealth of wonders it contains- I, too, can't find the reference. I will, however, resume the root through my 'old Liverpool' library to find it, never fear.
It was certainly in a period novel, with part of the action involving a visit to this subterranean community and the author expressing his amazement at the number of people and building existing down there...

I heard there was one underneath Lime street and it my of gone to a pub in the scotland road area called The Pie Shop. anyone know of this pub?

I heard that there was a street underneath lime street station. And a tunnel that runs from the Pier Head to walton Jail I believe it was something to do with the slave trade.

I heard there was one underneath Lime street and it my of gone to a pub in the scotland road area called The Pie Shop. anyone know of this pub?


The pie shop was the nickname for the Byrom, only demolished 18 months or so ago. I don't know of any tunnels under it but someone could be getting confused with the nearby Waterloo tunnel which was just 50 yards away from it and ran from Waterloo dock up to Edge Hill.

[QUOTE=theninesisters;26325]Far less known is a tunnel that is rumoured to run from St Georges hall to the statue at the bottom of London Road - this was mentioned by an old guide but nothing seems to have been looked in to.[QUOTE]

I worked in St Georges hall during the recent restoration an can confirm there is a tunnel running towards the docks, i have seen it as it was somewhere to go for a smoke break! It is blocked up and has been for years i was told. This tunnel was massive an i was told it had something to do with slaves that were brought into the country but as the trade had been abolished in 1807 and hall competed in 1854 i didnt beleive this explanation any more information would be appreciated.

[QUOTE=theninesisters;26325]Far less known is a tunnel that is rumoured to run from St Georges hall to the statue at the bottom of London Road - this was mentioned by an old guide but nothing seems to have been looked in to.[QUOTE]

I worked in St Georges hall during the recent restoration an can confirm there is a tunnel running towards the docks, i have seen it as it was somewhere to go for a smoke break! It is blocked up and has been for years i was told. This tunnel was massive an i was told it had something to do with slaves that were brought into the country but as the trade had been abolished in 1807 and hall competed in 1854 i didnt beleive this explanation any more information would be appreciated.

I too have heard of this tunnel from a person that knows the Hall and surroundings like the back of their hand, although they mentioned the tunnel from the Hall to the Statue, not leading towards the docks.

There is also another little known underground section underneath the Liverpool Empire. A massive stone archway, spanning about 40ft can be found in the basement area for anyone lucky enough to find an excuse to go down. My friend was working on the electrics there and had a good nose around.

[QUOTE=TheBandit;74211][QUOTE=theninesisters;26325]Far less known is a tunnel that is rumoured to run from St Georges hall to the statue at the bottom of London Road - this was mentioned by an old guide but nothing seems to have been looked in to.

I too have heard of this tunnel from a person that knows the Hall and surroundings like the back of their hand, although they mentioned the tunnel from the Hall to the Statue, not leading towards the docks.

There is also another little known underground section underneath the Liverpool Empire. A massive stone archway, spanning about 40ft can be found in the basement area for anyone lucky enough to find an excuse to go down. My friend was working on the electrics there and had a good nose around.

I don't mean to sound like a cynic.
Hopefully more like the voice of reason, but it's interesting that agreement can't be reached on some tunnels.
The 40ft arch under the Empire sounds about the right width to have something to do with the stage.
The present 1925 building was built on the site of an 1866 theatre and the original side wall remains next to where the Legs of Man was, and presumably the cellars/basement area remains.

[QUOTE=Cadfael;74213][QUOTE=TheBandit;74211]

I don't mean to sound like a cynic.
Hopefully more like the voice of reason, but it's interesting that agreement can't be reached on some tunnels.
The 40ft arch under the Empire sounds about the right width to have something to do with the stage.
The present 1925 building was built on the site of an 1866 theatre and the original side wall remains next to where the Legs of Man was, and presumably the cellars/basement area remains.

If we all agreed on what something was or wasn't then there would be no need for a discussion Philip :) Whatever people assume underground sections to be isn't the main issue, it is the fact that they have been found and recorded is good enough in my book.
I wouldn't touch the Williamson's Tunnels theory of 'are they tunnels or roads' as you have to define what a road actually is. Certainly there is documentation of two horse drawn carriages passing side by side in an entrance to the Williamsons Tunnels!

[QUOTE=PhilipG;74214][QUOTE=Cadfael;74213]

If we all agreed on what something was or wasn't then there would be no need for a discussion Philip :) Whatever people assume underground sections to be isn't the main issue, it is the fact that they have been found and recorded is good enough in my book.
I wouldn't touch the Williamson's Tunnels theory of 'are they tunnels or roads' as you have to define what a road actually is. Certainly there is documentation of two horse drawn carriages passing side by side in an entrance to the Williamsons Tunnels!

"Found and recorded" isn't enough though.
If you know the history of the sites, it usually provides most, if not all, of the answers.
It's rather irresponsible to suggest to impressionable people that underground streets exist, when even you've said in one of your earlier posts that you don't know what is under Renshaw Street.
People want to believe in the fantastic, so I suspect that I'm not going to bother contributing much more to this thread, as I'm only going to repeat myself.
Besides, I'm not sure now what thread I'm in!

[QUOTE=Cadfael;74215][QUOTE=PhilipG;74214]

"Found and recorded" isn't enough though.
If you know the history of the sites, it usually provides most, if not all, of the answers.
It's rather irresponsible to suggest to impressionable people that underground streets exist, when even you've said in one of your earlier posts that you don't know what is under Renshaw Street.
People want to believe in the fantastic, so I suspect that I'm not going to bother contributing much more to this thread, as I'm only going to repeat myself.
Besides, I'm not sure now what thread I'm in!

You seem to be the only person to rather than say 'good find, nice to know something is there and thanks for taking the trouble to tell us all' to wanting to argue the toss on something when you've not seen it for yourself. It's little wonder that lots of people don't post things any more for fear of people like yourself picking holes in anything you say, rather than being pleased that something different has been found in the city centre. There is no point in being pedantic about something to the extreme to just make a point.

[QUOTE=PhilipG;74223][QUOTE=Cadfael;74215]

You seem to be the only person to rather than say 'good find, nice to know something is there and thanks for taking the trouble to tell us all' to wanting to argue the toss on something when you've not seen it for yourself. It's little wonder that lots of people don't post things any more for fear of people like yourself picking holes in anything you say, rather than being pleased that something different has been found in the city centre. There is no point in being pedantic about something to the extreme to just make a point.

I'm sorry, Brother Cad.
I didn't realise you wanted credit for finding an underground street.
Congratulations. :handclap:

At one stage you said you enjoyed "Discussions", and I've only put forward my point of view.
I wonder why your post above has taken the tone it has?

[QUOTE=Cadfael;74227][QUOTE=PhilipG;74223]

I'm sorry, Brother Cad.
I didn't realise you wanted credit for finding an underground street.
Congratulations. :handclap:

At one stage you said you enjoyed "Discussions", and I've only put forward my point of view.
I wonder why your post above has taken the tone it has?

Because of your general attitude when it comes to something that you aren't 'up on'. You seem to take great delight in telling us what you do know - which is fantastic, but when it comes to a subject you don't know much about, you try and pull it apart and offer anything but credit for. I'm not after credit, no one is on the site, but for the handful of people who were interested in this subject of the lost street, you have done everything to derail the subject by chopping and changing your views on what is or isn't there and seem to have knowledge of something you've never seen before which is rather funny.


"Found and recorded" isn't enough though.

Maybe not to you, but for the rest of us, it gives a glimpse of the things that people find in this city and are pleasing for other people to view.
Your short comments are of no help to anyone especially your 'well I've not heard of any Mersey Tunnel collapse'. Stick to subjects you know and I'll give you credit for, but don't try and speak down to people because you're not the one in the know for a change.

We've both had our say, let's get back to the subjects at hand and let everyone else continue their posting.

Deleted.

Back to Church St.,I read a book about the construction of the Mersey Railway and nothing was mentioned about any sort of shop remains found during tunnelling,either for the original tunnel under Church St itself or the new Loop tunnel under Brooks Alley,and given both of these are close to the surface*,I think this one should be taken with a large bag of salt until hard evidence comes up. But it would be so cool to be true!

*when Waterstones' basement was public,you could hear the trains passing along the [new] tunnel which runs under the Co-Op's bank's front door...

Dave.

I've added pictures of the underground street (renshaw street) and a couple of pictures of the cellar system under The Vines on Lime Street:

http://undergroundliverpool.co.uk/renshawstreet

Fantastic stuff there,Cadfael. Do you think it will ever be possible to establish why,and how, some of these underground structures exist?
Steve.

I've added pictures of the underground street (renshaw street) and a couple of pictures of the cellar system under The Vines on Lime Street:

http://undergroundliverpool.co.uk/renshawstreet

:handclap:

Brother Cad.
I know my comments aren't always appreciated in this thread, but wouldn't it be a good idea to find out exactly what buildings were above this underground "mystery", and trace them right back through street directories?
The answer might then be apparent.
I've given the history of the general area already.

Brother Cad.
I know my comments aren't always appreciated in this thread, but wouldn't it be a good idea to find out exactly what buildings were above this underground "mystery", and trace them right back through street directories?
The answer might then be apparent.
I've given the history of the general area already.

Your comments are always welcome Philip, just because we don't see eye to eye on what something is or isn't, you are a wealth of knowledge and we're all grateful to have you on this forum.

It is something that I am going to look in to, for the moment I am going through all my old pictures of St Luke's to see what is in shot which may give me some indication of what may have stood there and whether it is different to that of today's buidings. :PDT11