Norris Green Croxteth Districts

[Kev]

Gun gangs' vile videos of terror

Shock as the mini-gangsters use mobiles to film themselves and their victims in new twist to city crime mayhem

TEENAGE gangs are filming themselves brandishing guns, setting dogs on victims and speeding stolen cars through city streets in a series of shocking promotional videos.

The violent world of Liverpool’s young gangs has been captured on mobile phone videos and sent out to children as young as 11 as teen thugs bid to enhance their reputations and recruit potential members.

The ECHO passed four pieces of footage to Merseyside police, which has launched an investigation into the videos.

The clips show different gang members from Norris Green, Croxteth, and the Deysbrook and Larkhill areas and include:

* A youth with gunshot wounds to his head

* Masked youths showing off loaded shotguns, handguns and ammunition

* Yobs riding motorbikes dangerously and at speed on residential roads

* Youths wheelspinning cars on busy roads

* Speeding cars being pursued by police vans and the police helicopter

* Pit bull terriers being set on people

* Innocent passers-by being filmed as they are attacked in the street

* Dogs fighting

All of the video clips, which are up to three minutes in length, have been edited and include backing tracks from popular rap songs.

One of the clips shows graffiti tributes to 19-year-old gang leader Liam “Smigger” Smith, who was shot in the head outside Altcourse prison last month.

His death was the first fatality in the long-running feud between the Strand Crew and the Croxteth Crew.

Another shows close up footage believed to be of Everton footballer Andy Van der Meyde’s car being wheel spun around a car park.

One Norris Green resident, who asked not to be named, said: “When Liam Smith died the police were round here in force, but a week later it had all died down.

“This guy is being paraded around as a hero. It is a living nightmare around here.

“I have seen what weapons can do and what death is like and I know what one bullet can do, it is not something to be laughed at.”

Chief Supt Andy Ward said: “As well as this footage we have other similar videos and are investigating. There are groups of people in Liverpool who are making these films and glamorising what is effectively criminal behaviour, particularly with impressionable young people.

“The people who are involved in this are very much a minority of the communities and what we don’t want is for people who don’t normally get involved in this sort of behaviour getting involved.

“Police officers will be looking out for anti-social behaviour and people who are have this type of footage will have their phones seized.

“We would also appeal to parents to check their kid’s mobile phones for these images. If they have got information they should be coming forward before it gets out of hand.”

SEE the shocking footage and police reaction - click here (http://videos.icnetwork.co.uk/icliverpool/MOBILE140906.wmv)

Surely this is serious enough for the armed forces to step in? :shock:

[lindylou]

let them all kill each other off ! The sooner the better as far as I'm concerned. :disgust: :disgust:

Every time there's a new 'gangsta' killing reported in the news we say, ''good !''


- that's one less lowlife.

[Kev]

Lets be honest , the Police cannot do a thing, there was no evidence from the video that the Police are taking tuff action against these kids, this will get far more serious, these kids aren't one day going to realise that what they are doing is wrong.

Its the issue of them being able to get away with it for so long that needs looking at.

The loss of such young life is always a tragedy but who's to blame? Where are these kids parents?

Give 'em and inch........ :rolleyes:

Meanwhile the rest of us can worry about action like this: TRAIN users who put their feet on seats face prosecution and fines. more (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=17746255%26method=full%26siteid=50061% 26headline=feet%2don%2dthe%2dseats%2d%2d%2dwe%2dll %2dsee%2dyou%2din%2dcourt-name_page.html) and facing fines of up to £20,000 for dumping bin bags in the street. :rolleyes:

[shytalk]

One thing is certain, there will be reprisals. The police don't want the memorial removed because it would cause a riot, what a load of bull. This is just giving in to these scum, maybe a confrontation with the police is what is needed. It is a sin that the public pay such high taxes to suport a police force that is so inefective. This needs to be stamped on now or more young lives will be tragically lost.

[Jock]

'Kids of today' to quote the officier on the video.

I've lived in Croxteth for 14 months now, and I can guarantee to him that its been the kids of the past year. I'm sure others that have lived here longer would be able to testify that its been going on longer...

Just yesterday I was forced off the road by a joy-rider. I was in one of the shops shortly afterwards explaining to the staff what had happened. Their response - 'oh, we assumed it was a bike'.

After the shooting outside Croxteth Sports Centre earlier this year, there was visible policing for about a month, and things started to look a bit brighter. They then took this policing away. Since then, life has gone back to normal :Colorz_Grey_PDT_24: :PDT_Xtremez_12:

[Jock]

I'm guessing these are the 4 vids handed into the police - linked from a LFC Forum:

http://forums.lfconline.com/showthread.php?t=46632

[Kev]

THE families of rival youth gang members have been invited to attend secret crisis meetings with Liverpool's top police officers.

Escalating rivalry between the warring Norris Green and Croxteth gangs has already resulted in murder, attacks, verbal threats and homes being shot at over recent months.

On August 23, Liam Smith, a member of the Norris Green faction was shot in the head out-side Altcourse prison and died.

In a bid to end the mayhem, Merseyside police wrote to the families of suspected gang members urging them to help.

Earlier this week officers held two separate meetings with families at key locations in Croxteth and Norris Green.

Today, police said they were pleased with the response.

Inspector Louise Harrison said: "We had quite afew mums and dads turn up.

"They realise there is no easy solution butthe biggest positive for me is that they want to try to solve this although they accept it will be difficult to try and getco-operation from the lads themselves.

"Both sides are fearful. "I feel the shooting was abig turning point, because it made the parents realise that doing nothing was not an option.

"Certainly it made the families in Croxteth realise 'one of us is going to get thatknock on the door next'.

"Not as many people turned up for the Norris Green meeting, but Iexpected that because tensions are abit higher in Norris Green and there is going to be some mistrust.

"But certainlyone of the mums was very positive and said she would go backto the community and saywe were all right and there is nothing shady about what weare trying to do.

"They want to see an end to this.

"They tell us there is nothing for the lads to do and there are no opportunities.

"But they were quite honest about certain aspects of our policing and we realise we donot always get it right, but we are trying to listen and want them to tell us what is going to make it better.

"But the most positive thing thathas come out of it for us is their willingness to put an end to it."

Countdown to murder of Strand Crew gang member

* FEBRUARY 11, 2006 - A 15-year-old boy is blasted in the thigh on Dwerryhouse Lane, Norris Green, by a bike-riding gunman.

* FEBRUARY 22 - Residents in Coleshill Road, Norris Green, hear gunshots outside their homes.

* MARCH 9 - Police storm 13 homes in Croxteth and Norris Green, seizing suspected gang members, drugs and airguns.

* APRIL 5 - Houses in Norris Green are sprayed with bullets when gangsters fire a machine gun in another drive-by shooting. The attack sparks a shoot-out as teenagers return fire with their own weapon.

* APRIL 24 - Drive-by gunmen shoot a 17-year-old member of the Norris Green gang from the window of a speeding 4x4. He is treated in hospital for leg wounds.

* MAY 16 - Armed police arrest seven suspected gun-gang members, some as young as 15, during raids in Croxteth and Norris Green.

* AUGUST 1 - Two 16-year-old boys are in hospital after being shot in the hands. Police believe they may have been messing around with a gun when the incident happened.

* AUGUST 23 - Liam Smith, a member of the Strand Crew from Norris Green, is shot and killed outside Altcourse Prison in Fazakerley.

Yobs send shocking film of attack to mobile phones

TODAY the ECHO reveals more shock footage filmed by yobs on their mobile phones.

Yesterday we reported the latest craze by out-of-control gangs in Liverpool, who have been filming footage of loaded firearms, dog attacks and speeding cars, then distributing them on mobile phones.

In another two-minute video clip linked to a gang in the Deysbrook area of West Derby, an innocent passer-by is kicked to the floor.

As the man is walking along a main residential street in broad daylight, a yob launches a flying kick to his head

The yob's accomplice uses his mobile phone to film as the man lies stunned on the pavement.

The victim, who is dressed in dark clothing and carrying a black bin liner, tries to stand up but the yob, wearing a white T-shirt and dark coloured shorts, kicks him again.

It is unclear whether the victim is badly injured. A spokeswoman for Merseyside police, who were given the footage by the ECHO, said: "This assault may well have been reported, but if it wasn't reported at the time we would urge this person to come forward."

Anyone with any information please contact the confidential Crimestoppers line on 0800 555 111.

Court date for gang suspects

SUSPECTED members of the Croxteth Crew are being called before the courts after a series of police raids.

Seven people - including a 15-year-old boy - are due to appear at Liverpool crown court in November on firearms charges after police stormed homes in Croxteth and Norris Green earlier this year, seizing suspected gang members, drugs and airguns.

Brothers Wesley Brown, 21 and Dean Brown, 19, from Sceptre Road; Anthony Fairfield, 18, from Totnes Road; Ryan Lloyd, 18, from Silverwell Road, and Dean Scahill, 18, all Croxteth; Joseph White, 20, from Whinhowe Road, Norris Green, and a 15-year-old boy, who cannot be named for legal reasons, are all charged with conspiracy to possess a firearm with intent to endanger life, conspiracy to possess a firearm and ammunition without a certificate and conspiracy to commit GBH with intent.

More than 100 officers from the anti-gang Matrix unit and local police raided 13 houses to collect evidence to smash the gangs plaguing the two estates in March.

The officers targeted the homes of ten suspected members of the Croxteth Crew - the gang battling it out with the Norris Green-based Strand Crew.

The operation followed the joint call by the ECHO and Merseyside police for locals to speak out against the two gangs which have terrorised their neighbourhoods.

ECHO Essentials

TO act against these teenage gun gangs, Merseyside police needs your help.

Communities have been too frightened to speak out against these teenagers, but you don't need to give your name and address when you pass on vital information.

There are several ways to let police know important information, without your details being recorded.

* Anyone with any information about guns is asked to contact Merseyside police guncrime hotline on 0800 458 1211.

* Anyone with any information about anti-social or criminal behaviour can contact the confidential Crimestoppers line on 0800 555 111.

* Anyone with any information about gangs can also contact the ECHO's confidential Reclaim our Neighbourhoods line on 0151-330 4975 or send us an email in confidence to reclaim@liverpoolecho.co.uk You don't need to give your name or address and we will pass on what you know to police.

Source (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=17753152%26method=full%26siteid=50061% 26headline=families%2dmeet%2dcops%2din%2dbid%2dto% 2dend%2dteen%2dgun%2dwars-name_page.html).....

[lindylou]

One thing is certain, there will be reprisals. The police don't want the memorial removed because it would cause a riot, what a load of bull. This is just giving in to these scum, maybe a confrontation with the police is what is needed. It is a sin that the public pay such high taxes to suport a police force that is so inefective. This needs to be stamped on now or more young lives will be tragically lost.

I don't agree with this fashion for laying flowers - for anyone. Even car crash scenes or sites where fatal accidents took place.
I don't know how this trend started.
The first time I ever saw flowers on a roadside was approx 10 or 12 years ago - maybe a bit longer. It was for that poor foreign student that was murdered on Scotland rd. Can't recall when it was.
I remember seeing the flowers and thinking that it was unusual as it wasn't normally done.
I never saw this happen years ago.
Gradually the trend grew and flowers began to appear in other places.
First it was for road death victims. Then the 'no-marks' cottoned on and started up these shrines for their Scally mates.

Of course, I feel every sorrow for the families of accident fatalities or murder victims - ( we have experience of it in my family) - But I can't see the attraction or reasoning to have public laying of flowers and personal obituaries.
A death in a family is a private thing and not for all and sundry to gawp over. I believe in dignity and privacy.

How many hundreds of trees, fences, etc have wilted flowers hanging off them ! Or some shrines are added to on a regular basis until they become some kind of macabre eye-sore.

- and where will it all end ? are people going to start laying flowers just about anywhere someone died ?? It's ridiculous.

[shytalk]

Well put lindyloo, I agree with everything you said.
I first saw this stupid practice when I moved to the U.S.A. I think this is where it started. A lot of Americans are really into making a big show of their grief. It seemed wrong to me as I agree that some things need to be kept private.

[Paul D]

The Echo isn't helping things by writing stories about them calling the scumbag who was killed "gang leader" he was only about 15 and stories like this are feeding their egos.They've all got matching t shirts on now with his face on the front and wait for it "True Nogzy Soldier" on the back :D how small time is that.They all think they're one of the Sopranos now.:rolleyes:

[Kev]

The Echo isn't helping things by writing stories about them calling the scumbag who was killed "gang leader" he was only about 15 and stories like this are feeding their egos.They've all got matching t shirts on now with his face on the front and wait for it "True Nogzy Soldier" on the back :D how small time is that.They all think they're one of the Sopranos now.:rolleyes:

That's the media for u :rolleyes:. The drama of it all :rolleyes:.

[Paul D]

They actually believe that the Strand is their territory now and you're likely to get attacked if you go there in the evening and what do the police do? tell people to keep away from the area in the evening can you believe that,instead of going in there mob handed they give them the "respect" they crave and feed their over inflated egos,the police do nothing because it's a working class area and nobody cares about us but if I was a balloon thrower in Formby God forbid they'd be out in force like they were recently making sure this scandal was stopped.Can you see the difference in attitude the rich in Formby were outraged with balloons full of water being thrown and it was immediately stopped but in Crocky last week the police were going around the streets with a loudhaler telling people to remain in doors and get your kids in and if you hear a loud noise to keep clear of your windows and yet nothing is done.These idiots the other day were sitting outside a shop with bullet proof vests on the outside of their clothes and there's no police there wanting to know why,it'll only get worse but still now I know why I have to pay more council tax than the people of Formby it's clearly for police protection.:disgust:

[lindylou]

It's just SO depressing. :disgust:

The feeling of helplessness is very depressing.

What can the average person do to put a stop to all this.

Nothing !

'THEY' are winning. Decent people are terrorised into submission. 'THEY' are already ruling our streets.

It's very fast approaching - the fact that grown people are being dominated by 15 years old toe rags.

People are so dispirited - so dispirited that they have given up and havn't the heart to fight back.

HOW can you fight back ! ??

I for one am certainly dispirited, and so are my friends and neighbours.

I lost all interest in striving for my community long ago.

For many years I was involved with community matters, but not any longer.
It is all wasted time and energy. We got nowhere. In fact things got ten times worse. The garbage continued to swamp us and we are now steeped in it. :disgust:

The best thing to do is just get out when you possibly can.

[Kev]

It's just SO depressing. :disgust:

The feeling of helplessness is very depressing.

What can the average person do to put a stop to all this.

Nothing !

'THEY' are winning. Decent people are terrorised into submission. 'THEY' are already ruling our streets.

It's very fast approaching - the fact that grown people are being dominated by 15 years old toe rags.

People are so dispirited - so dispirited that they have given up and havn't the heart to fight back.

HOW can you fight back ! ??

I for one am certainly dispirited, and so are my friends and neighbours.

I lost all interest in striving for my community long ago.

For many years I was involved with community matters, but not any longer.
It is all wasted time and energy. We got nowhere. In fact things got ten times worse. The garbage continued to swamp us and we are now steeped in it. :disgust:

The best thing to do is just get out when you possibly can.

If they are not removed then the best thing to do is to move house for yours and your familiys own sake, self preservation.

[FKoE]

17 September 2006
CRIMINAL, PM

EXCLUSIVE In a Britain plagued by lawlessness, the Blairs & their neighbours are each paying £800 a year for a PRIVATE security guard to crack down on hoodies near their £3.6m mansions
By Victoria Raymond & Justin Penrose Crime Correspondent

TONY BLAIR and his neighbours have hired a private security guard to crack down on hoodies causing chaos in their posh London square.

More than 50 wealthy homeowners in Connaught Square, - where the Prime Minister has a £3.6million Georgian home - each pay £800 a year for a "garden fund" which pays for upkeep, including the guard.

The square has seen a surge in crime and anti-social behaviour and has twice the London average for burglaries and robberies.

Frightened homeowners even use the guard to get from their car to their door. They ring the guard's mobile and he walks them home.

Mum-of-four Kathy Hyer, who lives next door to the Blair's townhouse, said the square - opposite Regent's Park - is like a "party zone" on Friday and Saturday nights. She said her car has twice been vandalised in the few months she's lived there.

She said: "It can get very busy at the weekend with a lot of cars and loud people. Music blares from cars and people dance on the street."

Advertisement
Falk AdSolution

And only last weekend a woman was mugged outside the Blairs' home at 3am. The guard chased her attacker and returned the sobbing victim's handbag and jacket after the robber dumped it.

While police struggle to cope with spiralling levels of robberies and violent crime, Mr Blair has launched a bid to identify likely problem children while they are in the womb.

Earlier this month he announced his plan for state intervention with nuisance families dubbed "Fasbos" - anti-social behaviour orders for foetuses.

Just a month ago Met Commissioner Sir Ian Blair boasted that Londoners felt so safe they were "leaving their doors open".

But residents at the square, where Mr Blair will eventually live when he quits No 10, decided to hire the Croydon-based Mercantile Security Services.

The guard works until 4am on Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights in a fluorescent yellow vest bearing the words "Security, Connaught Square".

He reassures residents, moves on rowdy yobs and deals with any trouble. A homeowner's driver said: "The lady I work for feels scared to be out on her own so to be met is reassuring for her."

When anti-social behaviour flares into violence the guard immediately calls police.

The Blairs bought their five-bed home in 2004, before the local market slumped, and had difficulty finding someone to pay rent. Scottish film director Michael Caton-Jones is renting it until 2008. He pays £2,000 a week - a £6,000 shortfall on their £14,000-a-month mortgage.

Club DJ Paul Oakenfold, who co-wrote the Big Brother theme tune, rents out his townhouse and Richard Balfour-Lynn, chairman of Retail Stores - owner of Liberty - lives there.

Local shop owner Vadjiheh Safa said: "I don't think Tony Blair knows what he's letting himself in for when he moves in.

"You get gangs of people fighting with sticks."

Local councillor Colin Barrow said: "Young people come in their cars playing loud music, eating takeaways and throwing rubbish over the square."

A woman, whose car has been repeatedly vandalised, said: "Since this scheme was introduced things have got better - everyone feels safer."


CLICK (http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=17762124%26method=full%26siteid=62484% 26headline=criminal%2d%2dpm-name_page.html)

[lindylou]

If they are not removed then the best thing to do is to move house for yours and your familiys own sake, self preservation.

that's exactly it FKoE. It IS self preservation.

that's the point people have got to now. They just want to get away.

Every day at the local shops or on the street, people are saying how they want to move.

Unfortunately it is not financially possible for a lot of us.

It's a disgrace and a crying shame that people are resorting to moving away form their communities where they were born and bred, or have lived for a very long time.

There comes a point when you realise that you just have to give up and let it go.

[Kev]

I'm guessing these are the 4 vids handed into the police - linked from a LFC Forum:

http://forums.lfconline.com/showthread.php?t=46632

Just watched these Jock, bloody 'ell there's not a lot you can say is there?! The motor bikes I can deal with, what's with the police on camera following them tear arsing down the street??!!

All on YouTube too :Colorz_Grey_PDT_24:

[Kev]

THE teenager jailed for murdering brave Liam Culshaw is a member of a gang glorifying yob behaviour on websites.

Gary Craig, 19, part of a mob called the Cem-Eds, was sentenced to life for knifing the A-level student to death.

Mr Culshaw, 18, was subjected to afrenzied stabbing attack after trying to stop youths terrorising his family home.

Today, the ECHO can reveal Craig's mob are shamelessly boasting about their behaviour on a sick website.


http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/icliverpool/sep2006/0/8/CFFD11F0-E629-2D38-6F7A6A844A12A99E.jpg


A shocking video, recently taken off the site, showed:

* A phone box being blown up

* A girl being karate-kicked to the face

* Yobs flipping a car on its roof

* Illegal mini moto bikes doing wheelies on busy public roads

Craig, who must serve a minimum 10 years for Liam's murder, is pictured and named on the site.

The website dishes out written abuse to Merseyside police and features pictures of guns and souped-up cars.

Some of the photographed gang members can be seen carrying a knuckleduster and smoking cannabis.

It even includes detailed step-by-step instructions of how to steal cars, adding: "When police come don't stop. Go towards a parkand jump out and run or go to bollards. But always try andblaze your stoly! (stolen car)."

Police have been passed details of the website and promised to investigate.

The mob call themselves the Cem-Eds as they congregate near Walton cemetery where they terrorise neighbours.

Officials from Liverpool council have been informed about disorder in the area and evidence handed over to the anti-social behaviour team.

A Section 30 dispersal order operates near the cemetery, so groups can be moved on.

But locals said teen gangs regularly flouted the order.

Everton fan Liam, of Cosgrove Road, Walton, was repeatedly knifed after he challenged youths doing "doughnuts" with a motorbike on a grass verge, splattering his home with mud.

The gang's wanton destruction of open spaces with the bikes is an activity featured on the website.

Ian Culshaw, Liam's older brother, said: "It's sickening to think this website is glorifying this behaviour."

[Paul D]

Liam Smith is getting buried on Monday and the other day a friend was in the local florist when the phone went,when the woman got off the phone she was really angry because Merseyside Police had just ordered a big wreath for the funeral,now you know where the extra money you have to pay in council tax is going.:disgust:

[Kev]

Gangs, every town and city in Britain has them. Many have their own websites and many are often armed. But each city has a common question, how do we stop them? Sky's Jason Farrell investigates the culture behind gangland Britain.

Click to watch (http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-gangs_230906_gang1,00.html#)

[Kev]

Taking on the criminals

THE man who drew up gang-busting laws today warned Norris Green yobs they had no hiding place.

Senior government figure John Denham said: "Society will no longer tolerate such intimidation whether it is in Liverpool or anywhere in Britain.

"There is no hiding place for them. It is important to grab the front-line criminals"

Mr Denham was speaking to a fringe meeting of the Labour Party conference alongside Merseyside's Chief Constable.

Bernard Hogan-Howe declined to discuss the problems in Norris Green.

But yesterday, West Derby MP Bob Wareing likened the yobs' intimidation tactics to the Chicago mob under Al Capone.

Knowsley North MP George Howarth said: "We have all had enough of thugs and bullies. "

[Jock]

Well, they're talking the talking. I'm still waiting for some action though.

There was an interview with one of the big wigs from the police on 5 Live last night. He was claiming the streets were under police control and that it was just teenage yobs.

When the interviewer mentioned that this was a mountain out of a mole hill, he sheepishly had to concede that these teenage yobs had access to guns. The interviewer then made the point that it wasn't exactly just anti-social behaviour being a problem.

When pressed further on the shops having to close, he said that the majority closed because they wanted to. When pressed about those that remained open being threaten, he mentioned that no attacks had taken place on those shops. He couldn't guarantee that threats wouldn't be carried out.

What did surprise was the amount of Police driving around Croxteth Monday night, hadn't realised about the funeral.

[Bevy]

it's getting worse , turned the tv on last night and the news was just shootings..

but what can we do about it? I am all for cctv all over the place, i know people are against it but if you have nothing to hide then whats the problem?

I know its not the answer but it sure would help. lets face it we can't have a police man on every street corner.

[Paul D]

but what can we do about it?

Instead of putting grandmothers in jail for non payment of poll tax they should free up cell space for these street rats that are making peoples lives miserable.

[Bevy]

2 true, but its getting them.

I think we need a big re-think and change in the laws.

Lets face it we all see them every day and they are getting away with it.

[Kev]

2 true, but its getting them.

I think we need a big re-think and change in the laws.

Lets face it we all see them every day and they are getting away with it.

I saw two on motor bikes at 8.30 this very morning. :PDT_Xtremez_12:

[Bevy]

I went our local shops thursday night and they were selling beek outside the shop. not even trying to hide it .i was stunned.. ok may have been speed but it was white powder in a bag for £20..

I know it goes on and ive seen it before, its just it was so open like "hey no ones gona stop us" and they were about 14/15. its mad

[Paul D]

2 true, but its getting them.

I think we need a big re-think and change in the laws.

Lets face it we all see them every day and they are getting away with it.

We couldn't move for police in the 80's around Norris Green,you need to restrict there movements with stop and searches and put pressure on them,they can't deal drugs or carry guns then and it'll then be only a matter of time before they start taking bigger risks which would lead to them ultimately being caught.

[Paul D]

I went our local shops thursday night and they were selling beek outside the shop. not even trying to hide it .i was stunned.. ok may have been speed but it was white powder in a bag for £20..

I know it goes on and ive seen it before, its just it was so open like "hey no ones gona stop us" and they were about 14/15. its mad

I couldn't care less if they want to take drugs but they seem to want to intimidate the community while they're at it and it's not right.

[Bevy]

I couldn't care less if they want to take drugs but they seem to want to intimidate the community while they're at it and it's not right.


yes but the problem is when they are on the drugs thats when they do intimidate the community.ok we all used to have a few beers when we were kids and get up to no good, but the kids today are on another level.

its scarry. or am i just getting old?

[Paul D]

Certain drugs in moderation don't have to be anti social,it's only when people get hooked on heroin and crack does a community take a nosedive,Norris Green was a lovely place to live in the 80's until heroin got a hold.You're a danger to no one but yourself when you've been smoking cannabis or you've had a trip.

[Kev]

yes but the problem is when they are on the drugs thats when they do intimidate the community.ok we all used to have a few beers when we were kids and get up to no good, but the kids today are on another level.

its scarry. or am i just getting old?

I think that argument 'is it us getting old' is part of the problem as has been the 'the kids of today' phrase used for the same period since the 80's. For the past 20 odd years its been the done thing to assume that its all becuase we are getting older but like you said, its on another level.

[Paul D]

I think that argument 'is it us getting old' is part of the problem as has been the 'the kids of today' phrase used for the same period since the 80's. For the past 20 odd years its been the done thing to assume that its all becuase we are getting older but like you said, its on another level.

It's all down to American culture being glamourised on our T.V sets for years,they went down the pan years ago and now they've took us with them.

[Bevy]

Certain drugs in moderation don't have to be anti social,it's only when people get hooked on heroin and crack does a community take a nosedive,Norris Green was a lovely place to live in the 80's until heroin got a hold.You're a danger to no one but yourself when you've been smoking cannabis or you've had a trip.



yeh but they aint JUST doing weed and trips anymore m8..they are all on beek and thats an ego drug, thats why they all think they are scarface.

drugs have such a big influence in this. it calmed down alot in the early 90's. you know why. they were all on E's.not just the streets clubs aswell.

now coke is in big time and its a nasty drug.

[Kev]

It's all down to American culture being glamourised on our T.V sets for years,they went down the pan years ago and now they've took us with them.

That's how I see it too.


yeh but they aint JUST doing weed and trips anymore m8..they are all on beek and thats an ego drug, thats why they all think they are scarface.

drugs have such a big influence in this. it calmed down alot in the early 90's. you know why. they were all on E's.not just the streets clubs aswell.

now coke is in big time and its a nasty drug.

Everthing is 'celeb' these days, everyone loves their media obessed lives, people are addicted to the drama of everything. Listen to the conversations of young lads and girls who work on the tills in shops. Its all 'who beat up who' etc. The media reinforces it all, no one makes judgement so know one 'feels a-shamed'. If a high profile footballer or anyone who's remotely 'famous' is in the papers for drugs, prostitutes etc, its all good for their career, their books, their profile etc.

[Blabber]

There is nothing that can be done about this problem and it is going to get worse and worse. Parts of Britain's inner cities will begin more and more to resemble the hell of South Central in LA, Harlem and the Bronx in New York. We are on a nasty downward slide.

We've heard talk about this for the last few years and what, if anything, has been achieved? Nothing. The state doesn't have the powers to tackle this, and this is exactly why nothing has been achieved.

Let's face it, against an army of vermin who smash up property, launch violent attacks on innocent people, bully people, what can be done? These "people" (I prefer to call them animals) do not have the conscience, manners, and morals that civilised people have. A lot of them have had crappy parents who never taught them right from wrong. A lot of them don't even work, and it is painful for the decent people affected by these animals to know that their taxes pay for these filthy scum to eat and drink and do what they do.

The only way this can be properly tackled is for somebody with a radical agenda to get into power, who has the guts to say we need to give these verminous, sadistic imbeciles a bloody nose and crush them. Regardless of EU and UK regulations, the police (I'm not a huge fan of the police but I prefer them to the animals) need to be given strong powers and encouraged to attack the scum. No fancy treatment, they need to be dragged off the streets and thrown in jail. They need to have their benefits withdrawn, and as tax payers we need to finance a massive prison building programme in a remote location to stick them all in. Prefeably I'd prefer the death sentence or some kind of labotomisation strategy, but this is unlikely.

It is tough, and it won't work perfectly, but brutal tactics are required to deal with these monsters. The government needs to come out and say "From this time next week, if you have a gun, or engage in gang related activities and terrorising civilised people, you will have your rights cancelled and will be crushed. Don't say you were not warned!!"

Blair's focus on children before they are born isn't a bad idea. Whether it works is another matter. But the basic idea is clever. After all, using strong arm tactics to crush the scum is one thing- but trying to reduce the number of them created in the first place would help. Most of these little ****es have not been brought up properly. A lot of people having kids shouldnt be bloody having them in my honest opinion. It only ruins the lives of other people when they go off the rails.

[Bevy]

I vote Blabber for prime minister..

I couldn't agree more.

[Paul D]

Yes spot on Blabbs we should also lower the age in which a juvenile can be sentenced to prison,keep them in custody until they're 16 and then lock them up proper.

[Kev]

I'm sure the Government know exactly what it should do with this problem but the task is immense.

You cannot assume these people live in poverty, they don't. Everything they have is paid for by tax payers, we should be able to claim it back if its not used for good purposes.

What they have lacked is parental guidance and have been spoilt by handouts. They live better than most tax payers.

[Blabber]

I'm sure the Government know exactly what it should do with this problem but the task is immense.

You cannot assume these people live in poverty, they don't. Everything they have is paid for by tax payers, we should be able to claim it back if its not used for good purposes.

What they have lacked is parental guidance.

The only way this dire problem can be rectified is for an urgent and powerful reaction by the state on behalf of the good people in this country. The people who mind their own business, who go to work, who save up for things, who are nice people, who want to make a better life for themselves- who are attacked by and have their posessions smashed by these scum.

If the police are given the powers they need, and the weapons and protection they need, they will not be so scared. Also, a lot of military troops should be brought in to add numbers. I'm not talking about a ***** footing operation. I'm talking about a rapid onslaught.

The police were scared to deal with these thugs becuase they may have been attacked with guns, or because they were afraid of causing a reaction that would harm innocent people in the area.

If they can go in there and wipe these c***ts out, in a harsh and brutal manner, these gangsters won't feel so confident any more. The hard core trouble makers and the leaders are in relatively small numbers anyway. Kill the head vampires and all the others become ineffectual.

I'm not saying it will be easy. It won't. But who controls the streets depends on who has the power, and if the civilised world doesn't take control then the consequences will be regrettable for a long time to come. Areas will be increasingly evacuated by the good people (which is terrible for them obviously) and areas will decua more and more.

Why the hell shouldn't I be able to walk where I want when I want?

I agree with Paul as well. These 14 year olds who go around throwing bricks at people and homes, and bullying civilised people. If they don't act like children, why the **** should they be treated like children?

[Paul D]

The only way this dire problem can be rectified is for an urgent and powerful reaction by the state on behalf of the good people in this country

That's the trouble with this spineless country we just bend over and take instead of forcing the Government into action,people power works but we're to interested in curtain twitching,soap operas and going into more debt to keep up with the Jones's.In France the people get their way all the time because they stick together and act as one and we always moan about them for blocking the roads etc but I say hats off to them I wish we were more like that.We in this country seem more interested in people working on the side instead of questioning why people have to do it,they should be questioning the extortionate taxes we have to pay instead or indeed why we are living in fear of the yob.

[shytalk]

It's all down to American culture being glamourised on our T.V sets for years,they went down the pan years ago and now they've took us with them.

Paul D,
It is too easy to blame American culture as seen on T.V.
My kids were 2 and 4 when I opted to come to the U.S,A. so they have watched more American c r a p than any of your yobs, they both grew up to be hard workers and are both now married with kids. So there is your argument shot to pieces.
I have seen a lot of anti-American sentiment on the Echo forums, mostly through ignorance of what it is like in America. I feel safer on the streets here than I do when I visit the U.K. not that I'm a nervous person, I drove a hackney cab on nights in Liverpool for years, I wouldn't do it the way it is now though.

[Paul D]

These people have little education though and they're are striving to be someone and get themselves out of poverty the easy way and these American gangsters show them that it can be done,the murderer Snoop Dog anyone!

[shytalk]

I won't repeat myself except to say what you are saying is false. I think the difference is that my kids saw me go to work everyday to provide what we needed, so they learned by example.
A lot of the yobs parents have never worked, so blame the people who took the work away and replaced it with free benefits, and a system which encouraged working on the side while claiming them.

[Paul D]

I think the difference is that my kids saw me go to work everyday to privide what we needed, so they learned by example.A lot of the yobs parents have never worked.

That's also a decisive factor in all of this and a lot of the kids parents around here are never out of the pub,some would even accept money off their kids knowing it was made through selling drugs just so they can get out on the ale.Poor role models that's sort of what i'm saying when I suggested the American link but of course the problem also lies more closer to home,they are looking up to lifes losers but try telling them that when the scum on telly they asspire to be are living a millionaires lifestyle and their parents just don't seem to care,drugs can be very lucrative and you don't have to get up at 6am every day,it's the easy way out.

[Paul D]

it's getting worse , turned the tv on last night and the news was just shootings.

If we think we're bad consider this,in a 5 year period in the 90's Mosside saw 27 people killed by guns and about 250 other people also shot.A girl was shot in some womens garden in Manchester last week and on todays teletext she said this is the fifth person to be shot outside of her houss in the 6 years that she's been living there.:eek:

[lindylou]

It's quite commonplace to see drug deals going on here in Anfield - and in braod daylight too. There is no such thing as hiding it. they don't care who sees. There is a particular road where the druggies queue up every day waiting for the dealer to arrive. The police know about it.
Houses where drugs can be bought are common knowledge and the kids around here only have to step outside to obtain drugs easily. It's on the streets and by the schools - God forbid, my son could quite easily get them if he had a mind to. :shock: I do my best though to educate him and warn him on these matters .

It's not always people 'getting older' that are horrified - I've heard younger people too. Like the young mum I saw on the bus the other week and she stood up to the yobs.


...... and Blabber .... brilliantly said ! I agree with all of what you said. Well worded too. :celb (6):

[lindylou]

These people have little education though and they're are striving to be someone and get themselves out of poverty the easy way and these American gangsters show them that it can be done,the murderer Snoop Dog anyone!

There is some truth in this I think.
It's not that we are blaming Americans ! but the youth do seem to aspire to the American gangsta' theme.

[lindylou]

it's getting worse , turned the tv on last night and the news was just shootings..

but what can we do about it? I am all for cctv all over the place, i know people are against it but if you have nothing to hide then whats the problem?

I know its not the answer but it sure would help. lets face it we can't have a police man on every street corner.

Yes, why not.

I can't see what the problem is - people who object to being on camera I mean.
What's their gripe ??

If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about.

Personally I couldn't care if there was a camera following me all day !!

I have absolutely nothing to be guilty about. :neutral:

[Kev]

There is a particular road where the druggies queue up every day waiting for the dealer to arrive. The police know about it.


So what stops the Police from making any arrests or taking positive action?

[shytalk]

So what stops the Police from making any arrests or taking positive action?


Probably nobody told them to, do you expect them to work on their own initiative like they do in The Bill?. It has to come to a point where people will revolt and demand value for money from the police, Privatise them maybe, a private business couldn't get away with their lack of performance.

[lindylou]

So what stops the Police from making any arrests or taking positive action?

God knows !!


They used to queue at the bottom of the road, and after neighbours complained to the police they just moved up to the top of the same road !

There was an extra long queue last Xmas ! ha! the 'xmas rush' :rolleyes:

when I say a queue, I mean about 5 people waiting. But dead obvious what they are waiting for.
Lots of times I've seen the dealers drive up to them and do their transactions.
Once there were 2 grown women and a teenage girl. They got their stuff and as they walked ahead of me another woman approaching said to them,''oh hello, what are you doing around here - hasn't your daughter grown !!''
One of them replied, ' oh, we only come down here for our stuff'

Mother AND daughter !! :shock:


actually, it's gone quiet around there the last week or so. Looks like they must have been moved on at last. But it was an every day thing that went on for a long time.

[Fergie]

So what stops the Police from making any arrests or taking positive action?

They always ask for witnesses regrads what evindence they have they are passing the buck which puts the public at risk by standing up in a court also
thier address is given to thier solicitors who check them out and try to say the are unreliable witnesses,also is the so called crime stoppers line as true as they promote it since this came in its true to say that more witnesses in court cases have been threaten thats why they have set up a so called
protection body at the present time you can not trust anyone who is employed in the legal or law system in the uk.Merseyside Police state the have more Police on the Streets of Merseyside i have walked around Liverpool
City Centre for 2hrs on a number of days over the past month but have never seen a Police Officer its also true to say if anyone witnesses a crime
outside Merseyside Police Headquarters you can not report it to them.also
why are their only 9 Police Stations open 24hrs and the rest are only part time in the Merseyside Area.
Fergie

[Paul D]

Paul D,
It is too easy to blame American culture as seen on T.V.
My kids were 2 and 4 when I opted to come to the U.S,A. so they have watched more American c r a p than any of your yobs, they both grew up to be hard workers and are both now married with kids. So there is your argument shot to pieces.

It is not uncommon for people living in remote areas of the country to have heard of Western Cape street gangs such as the Americans, the Hard Livings, the Sexy Boys, the School Boys and the Junky Funky Kids. This is largely due to the fact that these gangs have managed to capture the attention of the media through their actions. Identification with American gangsters through popular culture characterises even the most docile of communities in rural and urban areas of the country.

http://www.iss.co.za/pubs/Monographs/No48/Gangwarfare.html

The Americans are the most violent gang in Cape Town South Africa and they are so called because their leader envied "American Culture" and aspired to be like them and that was my point,this goes on Worldwide search for hells Angels anywhere on the web and you can find them anywhere in Europe and they are undeniably an American phenomenon.Here's the Norway branch.

http://www.hells-angels.no/

[Paul D]

It's undeniably bad parenting and teenagers wanting to make their mark on the World and become someone so I'm not solely blaming American culture,but was merely pointing out it has a lot to answer for as my last post appears to suggest.The fact that the background music to their videos is American "gangster" rap proves that it's deeply embedded in their psyche.

[Kev]

Well 20 years ago when i was a nipper, it was all 'brands' such as nike and adidas and computers like the spectrum etc. Musically, well there was nothing except for what my mum and dad listened to, Abba, Mowtown etc. Oh yes, japanese films on betamax. The conversations we used to have about who had seen the latest film, Indiana Jones was too much for us to watch. That was when I was 10. Back in those days we did evrything we could in friendship groups, had adventures on our BMXs and Raliegh Strikers, went knicking golf balls from the 6th green at Allerton and trying to sell them back a few days later. That was it.

I saw it a few years ago when all this 'Mischeif Night' began to appear before halloween in our communities , it spread like wildfire. With it came Eminem, 50 Cent, Dr Dre etc. The children as young as 8 listening to them on walkmans. WWF saw kids doing wrestling moves in playgrounds all over the show, breaking bones in the name of a laugh.I was shocked at NWA when I was 16 and listened to them for a bit but never wanted to ** any policemen or shoot anyone with guns. I was old enough to make the right choices.

Everything is accessable these days and unfortunately we have adults who either, turn a blind eye or don't have a clue what out there. You couple that with everyones selfish 'got to have evrything' ideas without working for anything and there's trouble.

The wider media has to take responsibility too.

[FKoE]

It is not uncommon for people living in remote areas of the country to have heard of Western Cape street gangs such as the Americans, the Hard Livings, the Sexy Boys, the School Boys and the Junky Funky Kids. This is largely due to the fact that these gangs have managed to capture the attention of the media through their actions. Identification with American gangsters through popular culture characterises even the most docile of communities in rural and urban areas of the country.

http://www.iss.co.za/pubs/Monographs/No48/Gangwarfare.html

The Americans are the most violent gang in Cape Town South Africa and they are so called because their leader envied "American Culture" and aspired to be like them and that was my point,this goes on Worldwide search for hells Angels anywhere on the web and you can find them anywhere in Europe and they are undeniably an American phenomenon.Here's the Norway branch.

http://www.hells-angels.no/



There was a documentary about the cape flats gang 'Hardliving'.. and the two brothers that ran it.. They were considered the toughest gang on the flats.. but were then chased out by a vigilante Muslim posse called G-Force :shock:

[Kev]

There was a documentary about the cape flats gang 'Hardliving'.. and the two brothers that ran it.. They were considered the toughest gang on the flats.. but were then chased out by a vigilante Muslim posse called G-Force :shock:

They are almost cartoon characters

[FKoE]

:D 'by the power of greyskull' :D

[scouserdave]

I read a hilarious (apart from the ignorant "pikey") post in another forum, where it was suggested Sharia Law should be imposed on Crocky and Norris Green...

"Perhaps Trevor Brooks, aka Omar Brooks, aka Abu Izzadeen and his mate Anjam Choudary and a few other nutters could be despatched up there, given the area to establish small independant Muslim 'state'and introduce Sharia law. That might sort these ghastly pikeys out! A few beheadings, a hand here, a nose there, a mass hanging by crane now and then"

[Max]

I should start a gang.:PDT_Aliboronz_24:

Anyone who pees me off or my ninjas would have someone ****ting on there doorstep or anyone who discriminates the North as it is far superior to the south.:PDT_Aliboronz_24:

To apply for membership, you;d have to take night pics of Liverpool or day ones that I don't have yet.:PDT_Aliboronz_24:

And fix my bike thats been nothing but trouble ever since I got it.

[scouserdave]

And fix my bike thats been nothing but trouble ever since I got it.
OT, sorry.
Max, what's the problem with your bike?

[Max]

Back wheel keeps wobbling about and rubbing against the metall.

[scouserdave]

Back wheel keeps wobbling about and rubbing against the metall.
Sounds like you've buckled it. Get it checked out at your local Halfords.

[Max]

That'll be the third time! :mad:

[scouserdave]

That'll be the third time! :mad:
Don't cycle around Sevvy Park then!:unibrow:

[Max]

Sevvy Park is quality.

It's probably because of all the potholes in the roads and that no bike I've ever had is strong enough for me.:Smiliz_Kingz_PDT_13

[lindylou]

I read a hilarious (apart from the ignorant "pikey") post in another forum, where it was suggested Sharia Law should be imposed on Crocky and Norris Green...

"Perhaps Trevor Brooks, aka Omar Brooks, aka Abu Izzadeen and his mate Anjam Choudary and a few other nutters could be despatched up there, given the area to establish small independant Muslim 'state'and introduce Sharia law. That might sort these ghastly pikeys out! A few beheadings, a hand here, a nose there, a mass hanging by crane now and then"

An excellent idea ! :D I'd be down there wiv me cattle prod :evil:

[Kev]

Sevvy Park is quality.

It's probably because of all the potholes in the roads and that no bike I've ever had is strong enough for me.:Smiliz_Kingz_PDT_13

Learn to do bunny hops and endos properly max :Colorz_Grey_PDT_16:

[FKoE]

oh hey Maxie is apparently famed for doin' wheelies all the way down Prescot rd :D

[Max]

Learn to do bunny hops and endos properly max :Colorz_Grey_PDT_16:

Would need a better bike for that.:Colorz_Grey_PDT_24:

Mines built for getting around towns and cities and despite it's over 21 inch frame, it's still a pain.

[Kev]

TEENAGERS accused of terrorising a Liverpool community have been given anti-social behaviour orders to bring them into line.

Eight youths aged between 15 and 19 were given a list of restrictions – from where they can walk to what they are allowed to wear – after appearing at Liverpool magistrates’ court.

The eight are all suspected to have links with Norris Green’s notorious Strand Gang and part of the interim order imposed by the court includes banning them from wearing clothing that could identify them as gang members.

continues (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/liverpoolecho/news/echonews/tm_headline=street-bans-for-%2D%2D8216%2Dgang-link%2D%2D8217%2D-teens%26method=full%26objectid=18619433%26siteid=5 0061-name_page.html)....

[Tockeyhead]

http://i16.tinypic.com/3ypk7rr.jpg

http://i5.tinypic.com/34q0fbn.jpg

[Paul D]

They're only kids in need of a slap,they'd sqeel like a pig if you got them on their own.

[lindylou]

It's very true .. I heard about one who was blubbing real tears in the back of a police car. He was all on his 'likkle own without his little pals around him. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[lindylou]

'Tockeyhead' .. a very fetching fashion plate. A wonderful fusion of colour and design - all they need is a nice string of pearls and a Prada handbag.



Hope they havn't got bad breath and snotty noses all zipped up in there !!


lol! Lol!

[SteH]

This Nogsy Soldier thing really pisses me off, its an insult to the decent people of Norris Green and to true brave soldiers everywhere. If these kids want to be soldiers maybe they can go to Iraq and Afghanistan and see how long they last.

[Libertarian]

no wonder Liverpool such has low self esteem and is perceived so poorly from outsiders when our own people belittle themselves in such a manner.

[lindylou]

I would LOVE nothing better than to whisk them over and drop them into Iraq or Afghanistan .. let them see what real guns and real war is about. Oh how I'd LOVE to see them cry for their mummies :evil: :evil:

They don't know the meaning of soldier.

It's a terrible, terrible insult to REAL soldiers. Real Men. Brave men. :disgust:

[lindylou]

no wonder Liverpool such has low self esteem and is perceived so poorly from outsiders when our own people belittle themselves in such a manner.

How true that is.

It's so soul destroying - I can't tell you.

It chips away at peoples' self esteem and gradually erodes all hope.

It's so very difficult to keep any optimism.

[snappel]

It's very true .. I heard about one who was blubbing real tears in the back of a police car. He was all on his 'likkle own without his little pals around him. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:Ha, I've seen better! I've seen a group of scallies piss off some older non-scallie kids, and one of the fleeing scallies get left behind and the sh1t kicked out of him! His over-done 'deep' voice soon disappeared then, I can tell you...

[Libertarian]

How true that is.

It's so soul destroying - I can't tell you.

It chips away at peoples' self esteem and gradually erodes all hope.

It's so very difficult to keep any optimism.

It's true isn't it the likes of Nogsy soldiers is very offensive to hard working people who live in Norris Green and I can tell you they are still in the majority.

I don't include most people on this site who are proud Liverpudlians but some Scousers are all too ready to play the happy scally role and play into the hands of the southern media who love it when we are done down.

[Tockeyhead]

True Nogsy soldiers in fact do exist, They are known as the Duke of Lancasters Regiment(Formerly HQ Kings) and meet up at the TA Centre on Townsend Avenue on Tuesdays 7:30PM

Whats the problem here?, Its only round the street corner!

[scouserdave]

I thought it was spelt Nogzy, mate.

[lindylou]

True Nogsy soldiers in fact do exist, They are known as the Duke of Lancasters Regiment(Formerly HQ Kings) and meet up at the TA Centre on Townsend Avenue on Tuesdays 7:30PM

Whats the problem here?, Its only round the street corner!



and .... ??

[Tockeyhead]

Well they think they are 'True Soldiers', They can be if they join up in the TA Centre in Norris Green.

[lynee29]

After reading all the posts that are saying. Put them on their own make them join the army to become true soldiers etc etc. I have to throw my tuppenorth in. I lived in Norris Green until i was 26. My family and all my friends still live there. I still class my self as a Nogsy girl and feel no shame about it.
When I was a teenager I was no angel but never hurt anyone. I went to school with and knew by association many of the thugs in Nogsy. It is their children the second generation of thugs who have no honour.
My friend was broken into 5 days before Xmas she lost her TV(which she still has to pay for) and all her childrens xmas presents. My other friend has had petrol bombings and firework bombings and shots fired at the house 2 doors away from her. Cars used in murders abandoned in her Street. Her husbands taxi takings have been taken twice at knife point. Sat Navs have been stolen whilst he sat in the cab he knew he couldnt do a thing about it. The road where I lived saw my old neighbour attacked thrown out of his house and now it is used by the "strand lads" as place to hang out. These thugs are well known but seem to be above the law, whose hands are tied because no one will give evidence. I dont blame them I wouldnt give evidence either. I never classed myself as a coward and I am always the first to speak out when I see injustice done. But in the case of the Strand lads your hands are tied and your lips are sealed. Yes these are young thugs who would crumble alone. But the fact is they are not alone there is someone waiting in the wings to take over as one goes down. They have an ethos that you hurt one you hurt them all. They will get you. I am not perpetuating scare stories as I see it with my own eyes. I feel the hopelessness in my heart for my friends and my community. The Lads lead a better life than employment can ever offer them and they have time on their hands to do whatever they want when they want.
Lets not be flippant about this, people live with the fear of the strand lads day after day and no-one so far has been able to do anything about it. They are building Ellergreen and charging over a hundred grand a house. It is doomed to failure unless this place gets cleaned up. It will take a commitment from all the services and a lot of money to do this.
I pray for my friends sake a solution is found soon.
(BTW my friends live in what is considered to be the better areas of Nogsy)
Lynne

[bobbymac]

I agree Lynn, chopping one head off a Hydra-headed monster does no good at all. They have to be taken down all at once.

[lindylou]

Well they think they are 'True Soldiers', They can be if they join up in the TA Centre in Norris Green.

sorry, I misread your post on that. I didn't twig on to why you were saying that.

Yes, the TA is right there in Norris Green. It's true, they could join up and learn how to be real soldiers. I have a feeling they couldn't hack it tho' :rolleyes:

[lindylou]

lynee, a very sad and disturbing tale. It's terrible to hear about those awful things happening to your friends.

it's beyond belief that things have come to this, and fear of a few thugs is such that there is no hope. :disgust:
I can't believe we are just left to get on with it - parts of Anfield are going the same way - nothing gets done, no amount of Police activity has quelled any of the anti-social behaviour and drug dealing etc.
Ok, one lot might get swept up, but as you say there are plenty waiting in the wings to step in.

[lindylou]

ps,

It's very depressing that we have to write such things about our areas.

These threads should really be for posting good news, photos and perhaps a little history about the districts. Any ex-pats looking in to catch up with their old stomping ground will be disappointed.

'fraid that unfortunately there are certain areas which are beyond repair. ( my own area deteriorating by the day. :disgust:

[Ged]

Someone mentioned that they're like/or think they are Al Capone and his gang. Well even they had a shelf life - the good guys ethos also has to be - 'hurt one of us and you hurt us all and there's more of us' - stand up and be counted for Christ's sake.

[scouserdave]

ps,

It's very depressing that we have to write such things about our areas.

These threads should really be for posting good news, photos and perhaps a little history about the districts. Any ex-pats looking in to catch up with their old stomping ground will be disappointed.

'fraid that unfortunately there are certain areas which are beyond repair. ( my own area deteriorating by the day. :disgust:
Here's a few. I've got some recents pics of Heathwaite Crescent on the Boot Estate. I'll post them later. That's where my Dad lived until he married my Mum. It's right dump nowadays.
http://www.liverpoolpictorial.co.uk/norrisgreen/image0001.jpg

http://www.liverpoolpictorial.co.uk/norrisgreen/image0002.jpg

http://www.liverpoolpictorial.co.uk/norrisgreen/image001.jpg

http://www.liverpoolpictorial.co.uk/norrisgreen/image002.jpg

http://www.liverpoolpictorial.co.uk/norrisgreen/image003.jpg

http://www.liverpoolpictorial.co.uk/norrisgreen/image004.jpg

http://www.liverpoolpictorial.co.uk/norrisgreen/image005.jpg

http://www.liverpoolpictorial.co.uk/norrisgreen/image006.jpg

[lindylou]

Thanks SD for posting those pics.

That's what these district threads should be about. :) :)

[Tockeyhead]

Years ago, my uncle used to live around norris green, Me and my mates used to get underneath the Broadway Bridge where there is a nice little 'sit-off', However it has been fenced off.

[Kev]

GUN battles between rival teenage gangs left a trail of destruction through a Liverpool suburb. more (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/liverpoolecho/news/echonews/tm_headline=teen-gun-war%26method=full%26objectid=18741197%26siteid=500 61-name_page.html)

[PhilipG]

This was reported in North West Today this morning.
Are these pellet-guns or real bullets?
There was a pellet-gun shooting the other day where somebody was injured in the leg.
Obviously, either type of gun is unacceptable, but we should be told which they are, because there is a difference.


Later.
It wasn't even mentioned on the Lunch-time edition of North West Today.

[SteH]

This was reported in North West Today this morning.
Are these pellet-guns or real bullets?
There was a pellet-gun shooting the other day where somebody was injured in the leg.
Obviously, either type of gun is unacceptable, but we should be told which they are, because there is a difference.


Later.
It wasn't even mentioned on the Lunch-time edition of North West Today.

Greg O'Keefe's report in tonights Echo seems to be talking about real guns.

[AK1]

I hate all this over-reaction when talking about 'shootings'. I read in a recent report someone say 'our gun ridden streets'. This is soooo not true. Yes there are some real guns out there, but compared to other cities and countries there is very little gun crime here. This doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken seriously, it should just be reported correctly. The vast majority of guns in this country (75%) are imitation firearms and most real guns are improvised guns from decades ago.
Places like the U.S. and S Africa have astronomical gun crime with shootings in cities taking place numerous times a day, with real guns! This is due to the fact that they have gun shops and the police are armed. There is no going back for these places, they are too far gone.
There is a completely different attitude to guns here. They are seen as completely unacceptable things by the vast majority of people, whereas in the U.S. children as young as 5 are tought how to use guns 'responsibly'!!!!!! This is telling them that guns are ok and is still teaching them how to use them.

[Kev]

I hate all this over-reaction when talking about 'shootings'. I read in a recent report someone say 'our gun ridden streets'. This is soooo not true. Yes there are some real guns out there, but compared to other cities and countries there is very little gun crime here. This doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken seriously, it should just be reported correctly. The vast majority of guns in this country (75%) are imitation firearms and most real guns are improvised guns from decades ago.
Places like the U.S. and S Africa have astronomical gun crime with shootings in cities taking place numerous times a day, with real guns! This is due to the fact that they have gun shops and the police are armed. There is no going back for these places, they are too far gone.
There is a completely different attitude to guns here. They are seen as completely unacceptable things by the vast majority of people, whereas in the U.S. children as young as 5 are tought how to use guns 'responsibly'!!!!!! This is telling them that guns are ok and is still teaching them how to use them.

Guaranteed 90% of the lads in these areas will have a least a BB Gun.

[steveb]

I hate all this over-reaction when talking about 'shootings'. I read in a recent report someone say 'our gun ridden streets'. This is soooo not true. Yes there are some real guns out there, but compared to other cities and countries there is very little gun crime here. This doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken seriously, it should just be reported correctly. The vast majority of guns in this country (75%) are imitation firearms and most real guns are improvised guns from decades ago.
Places like the U.S. and S Africa have astronomical gun crime with shootings in cities taking place numerous times a day, with real guns! This is due to the fact that they have gun shops and the police are armed. There is no going back for these places, they are too far gone.
There is a completely different attitude to guns here. They are seen as completely unacceptable things by the vast majority of people, whereas in the U.S. children as young as 5 are tought how to use guns 'responsibly'!!!!!! This is telling them that guns are ok and is still teaching them how to use them.

You can't really compare the USA to the UK as far as gun crime goes.
Look at say New York, about 5 million people, Liverpool 500,000. Won't get into the gun/anti gun, be it real,fake or airgun, again, but remember guns
don't kill people, it is the person with the gun who does..

[AK1]

Probably. To them, it's just a big game and is seen as cool. They should all be taken to the ghettos of America and S Africa to see that there, it isn't a game, it's a way of life. They wouldn't last 2 minutes. To be honest, they make me laugh. They're a bunch of uneducated, poorly disciplined yobs. I hold the parents responsible. The vast majority of these wannabe gangsters come from poor backgrounds with parents who just don't give a s##t, who are a disgraceful example to their kids and should never have been allowed to give birth.

[AK1]

You can't really compare the USA to the UK as far as gun crime goes.
Look at say New York, about 5 million people, Liverpool 500,000. Won't get into the gun/anti gun, be it real,fake or airgun, again, but remember guns
don't kill people, it is the person with the gun who does..

If you compare NY to London, which has a population of 7m, NY has far more gun crime. We do actually live in a safe country, compared to others around the world. It's just the propaganda and paranoia spread by the media that makes people think we live in a dangerous country.

[steveb]

If you compare NY to London, which has a population of 7m, NY has far more gun crime. We do actually live in a safe country, compared to others around the world. It's just the propaganda and paranoia spread by the media that makes people think we live in a dangerous country.

This is true, but we ain't talking about London :-)
I agree the media tend to spice up stories, lets face it it sells papers.
Years ago I was working up a ladder fixing a cctv camera at White Arrow
in Litherland, felt a sharp pain in my leg and something warm running down
when I got down I had been shot with a 22 air rifle. The bobbies got the culprits, but being under age could do nowt apart from confiscating the rifle.
This is what happens today, kids with BB guns, some of which look very much
like real weapons, point one at an armed bobby, and see what happens.

[lindylou]

Probably. To them, it's just a big game and is seen as cool. They should all be taken to the ghettos of America and S Africa to see that there, it isn't a game, it's a way of life. They wouldn't last 2 minutes. To be honest, they make me laugh. They're a bunch of uneducated, poorly disciplined yobs. I hold the parents responsible. The vast majority of these wannabe gangsters come from poor backgrounds with parents who just don't give a s##t, who are a disgraceful example to their kids and should never have been allowed to give birth.

That's what I've often said. I'd just love to airlift some of the local scallies and drop them into the worst gangsta' ghetto where, as you say, it is a way of life and serious stuff.
Or I'd drop them into the middle of a war zone where there's plenty of gunfire - those scallies wouldn't be worth a carrot.

[Max]

GUN battles between rival teenage gangs left a trail of destruction through a Liverpool suburb.

In the ghettoooooo!

Thats what It should say after Suburb.:PDT_Aliboronz_24: :PDT10

My brother took one of his driving tests In Norris Green, he learned not to do It there again and passed In Garston.

[stan]

Was Croxteth on your list?

[XL391]

My mate is a bizzie round there. They are real guns. He just wishes they would all wipe each other out as they're all little scumbags.

[Kev]

It must be hard for the decent kids around there to make any positive impact there. Decent ways of living havn't exactly been promoted have they?

[Max]

Was Croxteth on your list?

Think Norris Green was.

[AK1]

It isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be in norris green and croxteth. I also took my driving lessons in that area with no problems what so ever and my nan lives in croxteth and has had no problems living there. I'm not denying that there are problems, there are and they are being tackled by the council and police. There is alot of regeneration happening in these areas and they are gradually getting better.
It's mainly the media that make people think your life is at risk just by walking through it. To be honest, the public are partly responsible for all the hype as too many people believe everything they read in the papers and never consider the other side of the story, and alot of people who have oppinions on these areas have never even been there or have been there once.

[JohnnyBow]

Everything gets exaggerated, I live in Northern Ireland and a lot of people still think that there's people getting shot etc. just because of the past, we've built a reputation. I think these kids want a reputation like that and so it all gets blown up, not saying there isn't a problem though. I've been in Norris Green about 10 times and haven't had any problems, although I did hear about people driving by and shooting at houses. Does Liverpool not have a midnight soccer thing? It's started over here, to help get teenagers off the street.

[snoochie boochie]

I don't agree with this fashion for laying flowers - for anyone. Even car crash scenes or sites where fatal accidents took place.
I don't know how this trend started.
The first time I ever saw flowers on a roadside was approx 10 or 12 years ago - maybe a bit longer. It was for that poor foreign student that was murdered on Scotland rd. Can't recall when it was.
I remember seeing the flowers and thinking that it was unusual as it wasn't normally done.
I never saw this happen years ago.
Gradually the trend grew and flowers began to appear in other places.
First it was for road death victims. Then the 'no-marks' cottoned on and started up these shrines for their Scally mates.

Of course, I feel every sorrow for the families of accident fatalities or murder victims - ( we have experience of it in my family) - But I can't see the attraction or reasoning to have public laying of flowers and personal obituaries.
A death in a family is a private thing and not for all and sundry to gawp over. I believe in dignity and privacy.

How many hundreds of trees, fences, etc have wilted flowers hanging off them ! Or some shrines are added to on a regular basis until they become some kind of macabre eye-sore.

- and where will it all end ? are people going to start laying flowers just about anywhere someone died ?? It's ridiculous.

There shrine isn't even at the scene of the murder.

[shytalk]

The first time I saw roadside shrines is when I came here in the early 80's. They were usually on the sites of fatal car crashes. Probably the idea was taken to the UK by tourists who had seen them. They always seemed a daft idea to me.:PDT_Aliboronz_11:

[Paul D]

All of the derelict houses in Gilmoss are finally to be demolished soon,the council have finally found the money to relocate the remaining people,no date has been set for the demolition,great news though.

[Paul D]

The whole area bordering the East Lancs,Lower Lane,Stonebridge Lane is being developed but I'm not sure what it's going to be.Then there's a massive business park being built just over the road in Gilmoss and the Boot estate is well underway so it's not all bad news for this area.

[Kev]

How do u now engage the local lads into looking for work? Tough job that.

[steveb]

The whole area bordering the East Lancs,Lower Lane,Stonebridge Lane is being developed but I'm not sure what it's going to be.Then there's a massive business park being built just over the road in Gilmoss and the Boot estate is well underway so it's not all bad news for this area.

Yes and guess were the 10 million for the Boot estate came from >, it was
origionaly intended for the area around Sandyville, Garsfield, all bye the bye
now anyway as the vote to hand over the 21,000 council homes to LMU will
be unanimous...

[scouserdave]

I don't think the kids in Nogzy/Crocky are any worse than a few generations ago. It's just that they are allowed to get away with more than we did. When I was a teen in Canny, you'd daren't take the chance disrespecting (a stupid Southern word, sorry) an older bloke, because there was always the chance you wouldn't be alive the next day. This was in the 70s.

[Kev]

I don't think the kids in Nogzy/Crocky are any worse than a few generations ago. It's just that they are allowed to get away with more than we did. When I was a teen in Canny, you'd daren't take the chance disrespecting (a stupid Southern word, sorry) an older bloke, because there was always the chance you wouldn't be alive the next day. This was in the 70s.

Same when we were kids Dave, however that was around the time that kids started to question their 'rights' for the first time.

If my mum and dad didn't find out about something then they'd be told by someone else, and you would still get a good crack, or 'the slipper' in my case.

[Max]

you'd daren't take the chance disrespecting (a stupid Southern word, sorry) an older bloke, because there was always the chance you wouldn't be alive the next day.

Bit over the top just for disrespecting an older person?

[Max]

Same when we were kids Dave, however that was around the time that kids started to question their 'rights' for the first time.

If my mum and dad didn't find out about something then they'd be told by someone else, and you would still get a good crack, or 'the slipper' in my case.

You were slipper slapped!:eek:

I've never been hit by my parents for doing something wrong, they never seemed to have that mentality despite my mum growing up In a dodgey home getting battered by the adults even when they did nothing wrong.

Most of the workers were just bitter people she told me.

[AK1]

I don't think the kids in Nogzy/Crocky are any worse than a few generations ago. It's just that they are allowed to get away with more than we did. When I was a teen in Canny, you'd daren't take the chance disrespecting (a stupid Southern word, sorry) an older bloke, because there was always the chance you wouldn't be alive the next day. This was in the 70s.

Exactly! Not enough deterrant and not enough discipline from parents!

[Kev]

WITH their modern interiors and fancy furnishings, you could be looking at pictures of trendy city centre penthouses.

But these are just some of the new properties which are soon to become home to hundreds of families on the site of the former Boot estate in Norris Green.

Of the 45 properties released for sale in the first phase of the development, 40 have already been snapped up off-plan. continues (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/liverpoolecho/news/echonews/tm_headline=now-boot-is-on-the-other-foot%26method=full%26objectid=18824137%26siteid=50 061-name_page.html)...

[AK1]

There is a big feature in today's Echo on Norris Green. There is alot going on there to tackle yobs and educate the younger generation. There are also iniciatives to make parents more responsible for their children. For more info see today's Echo.

[Paul D]

Take there benefits off them they'd soon get them under control,a lot of parents (not all) are never out of the boozer.

[shytalk]

The State have just enacted a new law here. People claiming unemployment benefits must first pass a drug screening, then have regular checks.
The state say a large percentage of the unemployed are unable to work because of drug use. :034:

[Paul D]

Partner sought for new plan

A DEVELOPMENT partner who will bring regeneration to Liverpool’s Landford Avenue with plans for new shops and housing is being sought.

A report to the city council’s executive board on March 30 recommends that the council enter into an agreement with Cobalt Housing to jointly tender for a partner.

This is another reaon why NG seems to be never out of the Echo,when something happens in Croxteth,Fazakerley,Clubmoor etc even Aintree when dangerous dogs were seized it's reported as being in NG,when the press get there teeth into something they wont let go,this is on the NG page today and it's in Sparrow Hall Fazakerley Liverpool 9,NG is L11.It'll probably show a picture of run down shops in the Echo tonight saying it's in NG.

[Max]

The State have just enacted a new law here. People claiming unemployment benefits must first pass a drug screening, then have regular checks.
The state say a large percentage of the unemployed are unable to work because of drug use. :034:

Most people I've seen on Buses here smoke weed before they go to work.

[Kev]

FOUR speculative industrial buildings are proposed in the first phase of Stonebridge Park, a new 46-acre business park fronting the East Lancs Road in Croxteth. more (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/thebusinessweek/regionalnews/tm_headline=business-park-plan%26method=full%26objectid=18854143%26siteid=50 061-name_page.html)

[snappel]

Most people I've seen on Buses here smoke weed before they go to work.
If they're going to work, fine, but we (being the taxpayers) shouldn't have to subsidise the habits of those who don't work.

[Ged]

If they're going to work fine?

Yes, as long as they're not operating machinery where it could also compromise others. Drugged drivers have found to be as much a nuisence as drunk drivers - not to mention the mood swings etc... just talk to Frank.

[scouserdave]

If they're going to work, fine, but we (being the taxpayers) shouldn't have to subsidise the habits of those who don't work.
You think it's fine to work after smoking weed? I don't want to put words in your mouth. Is there a limit to the amount of weed and how long (if not at all) before work do you think it's acceptable?

[snappel]

As much as you like. As long as you extinguish the joint before entering your premises of work, not a problem.

Seriously though, I hadn't really thought about what I was saying there. I couldn't give a **** if people smoke that stuff, as long as it doesn't have any negative effect on other people. My main point was that they shouldn't be spending there job-avoidance allowancy on it.

[scouserdave]

I couldn't give a **** if people smoke that stuff, as long as it doesn't have any negative effect on other people. My main point was that they shouldn't be spending there job-avoidance allowancy on it.
With you there:PDT11

[AK1]

As much as you like. As long as you extinguish the joint before entering your premises of work, not a problem.

Seriously though, I hadn't really thought about what I was saying there. I couldn't give a **** if people smoke that stuff, as long as it doesn't have any negative effect on other people. My main point was that they shouldn't be spending there job-avoidance allowancy on it.

The fact is, it does have a negative effect on other people. People who take it can become violent towards other people, and if they are driving a car, we all know the dangers that come with that. If drugs only effected the people who took them, then I wouldn't care about drugs and would be ok with people taking them, but the fact is drugs to effect other people and communities, and create alot of crime.

[Kev]

RESIDENTS living in the shadow of a new sporting development claim it is making their lives a misery.

Work is almost complete on the £1m Scargreen sports ground in Ravensthorpe Green, Norris Green.

But local families say the construction and design of the complex are causing them problems. continues (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/liverpoolecho/news/echonews/tm_headline=new-sports-centre-%2D%2D8216%2Da-muddy-nuisance%2D%2D8217%2D%26method=full%26objectid=188 81645%26siteid=50061-name_page.html)....

[SteH]

RESIDENTS living in the shadow of a new sporting development claim it is making their lives a misery.

Work is almost complete on the £1m Scargreen sports ground in Ravensthorpe Green, Norris Green.

But local families say the construction and design of the complex are causing them problems. continues (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/liverpoolecho/news/echonews/tm_headline=new-sports-centre-%2D%2D8216%2Da-muddy-nuisance%2D%2D8217%2D%26method=full%26objectid=188 81645%26siteid=50061-name_page.html)....


Things like that infuriate me sometimes. Money is being invested into improving local facilities are being improved and people whinge about a few lorries going down the street and some splats of mud.

[steveb]

Things like that infuriate me sometimes. Money is being invested into improving local facilities are being improved and people whinge about a few lorries going down the street and some splats of mud.

with respect, I see your point, but should the money not be used to
improve housing before some sports facility ?. How many houses are deemed
substandard because they lack decent windows and central heating.
Doubt it matters much now as the transfer vote to transfer the councils
13,000 homes to LMH was a 78% yes

[SteH]

with respect, I see your point, but should the money not be used to
improve housing before some sports facility ?. How many houses are deemed
substandard because they lack decent windows and central heating.
Doubt it matters much now as the transfer vote to transfer the councils
13,000 homes to LMH was a 78% yes

Surprised it was as low as 78%!! I suppose the money all comes from different pots and the money was there for a sports facility but couldnt be used for bringing homes up to a decent standard.

[steveb]

Surprised it was as low as 78%!! I suppose the money all comes from different pots and the money was there for a sports facility but couldnt be used for bringing homes up to a decent standard.

Yes I was also surprised at 78%, but of course loads didn't bother to send
off their votes, just like those who don't vote in local elections.
Yes you are probably right about the funding, but I beleive that £20 million
was available to upgrade the area around townsend, sandyville, garsfield
etc, but the money was diverted to the boot estate
This is an empty house in Garsfield Rd, The graffiti has since been temoved
and the council said in the Echo about 3 weeks ago that a tenant would be
in within a week, still the same, boarded up. This is one of my pic,s which the Echo used with my permission.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/steveb_04/g1.jpg

[AK1]

I have been driving through NG and Croxteth quite alot over the past couple of weeks and have been pleasantly surprised to see the council doing alot of landscaping along central reservations and 'dead' plots of land. This has mainly included the planting of trees and shrubs, and the installation of attractive low level fencing. I know it's not the most important issue in the world, but it's great to see the council finally taking a bit of innitiative when it comes to the general look and tidyness of the city.:)

[steveb]

I have been driving through NG and Croxteth quite alot over the past couple of weeks and have been pleasantly surprised to see the council doing alot of landscaping along central reservations and 'dead' plots of land. This has mainly included the planting of trees and shrubs, and the installation of attractive low level fencing. I know it's not the most important issue in the world, but it's great to see the council finally taking a bit of innitiative when it comes to the general look and tidyness of the city.:)

I bet all this is on main roads were it can be seen.How long do you think it will last...

[snappel]

If things got destroyed once, then they'll get destroyed again...

[steveb]

If things got destroyed once, then they'll get destroyed again...

This is true, what gets me is the fact that city center and anywere
that is seen, ie main roads like east lanc,s, queens drive etc are done
up, but, the out of sight residential areas are forgotten

[AK1]

The landscaping is along main roads and side roads, and alot of the trees are protected by railings which is a very good idea in areas of high anti social behaviour. Some side roads in old swan and west derby have also been done. To say that Queens Drive is done up is wrong. Parts of it are in a very bad state, although I have been in touch with the council about this who have told me that there are plans to spruce up queens drive.
I think that the council don't bother doing some side roads because they know that yobs will just wreck it, but if they do main roads, it is less likely to be damaged etc. This happened in my area a couple of years ago. The council planted about 30 trees down a side road, but within 4 weeks they had all been snapped or uprooted by local yobs.

[Paul D]

Since when has Norris Green been L9,well there was a murder there and again the press are reporting it as NG.:disgust:

[taffy]

Interesting historical web site

http://www.sw-norrisgreen.co.uk/

[Libertarian]

Interesting article in yesterdays Echo about the Crown pub on the East Lancs.

Since being burnt down it is a major eyesore on an important route into the city and incredibly the council has knocked back a plan to tear it down and allow flats to be built there. I can't understand that at all.

[johnmed]

surreally, as always there's still people living in the odd house here and there.

Soon to be forgotten:

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/14516501263.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5538261)

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/14516501131.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5538258)

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/14516501231.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5538260)

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/14516501177.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5538259)

Does anyone have any info/stories about these flats/houses?

John

[Ged]

I was up there the other week, the estate with the Red Rum pub on it, I put it on the pubs thread. Very desolate looking now, a vast expansive estate soon to be demolished and hopefully rebuilt.

[Kev]

:handclap::handclap: To regeneration for that area, may the future be bright, at last.

[Paul D]

That estate is on the site of what is to be Stonebridge Cross,the block of flats at the end of Lowerhouse Lane is to be demolished also.

[MarkA]

St Swithin's Church (well no longer as it's a community thing now)

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j248/itsmma/DSCF0932.jpg

In the graveyard

CAPT. THE HON. ROGER GORDON MOLYNEUX LATE 10th HUSSARS AND 1st DRAGOONS
YOUNGEST SON OF THE THIRD EARL OF SEFTON BORN JAN 4th 1849 DIED SEPT 9th 1893 AGED 44 YEARS
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j248/itsmma/DSCF0925.jpg

Site of the old St Swithin's Church from the early/mid 1800's

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j248/itsmma/DSCF0933.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j248/itsmma/DSCF0934.jpg

They demolished the old church/club about 5 years ago after giving 3 days notice. Unless they filled them in, there's a crypt underneath still.

[caterina]

Is it still standing are there any photo,s also Clanfield Road Please

Thanks Caterina..:)

[Ged]

Yes, both still there, as you know Stalisfield Ave is a long road joining Muirhead Ave East with Utting Avenue so it's unlikely that will ever go, my mate lives in its mirror image, Lewisham road. Both roads have circular roads spiralling off them and was laid out in the 30s as a new housing estate by Sir Lancelot Kaey.

[caterina]

Thanks Gedi i was just wanting to know if still there and curious as that, the address where my mum was living at on a certificate as i am only now finding out slowly about my Liverpool Relatives and ancestors..


Caterina..:)

[AK1]

The three blocks of flats next to the showcase (as seen in the above pic) are under demolition. Went past today and was quite amazed to see a kind of large digger hacking at the side of one of the blocks. I always thought that they would be blown down. Either way, it's great to see them finally going.:PDT11

[johnmed]

It's funny isn't it.. I just presumed the flats on Everton Brow would've been blown up, but they were hacked down too.

[PhilipG]

The three blocks of flats next to the showcase (as seen in the above pic) are under demolition. Went past today and was quite amazed to see a kind of large digger hacking at the side of one of the blocks. I always thought that they would be blown down. Either way, it's great to see them finally going.:PDT11

Whenever I've taken photos of the Showcase, i've always included those tower blocks.
They made a good background.
It was a few weeks ago I was there last - I'll dig out a photo.

[Ged]

There are some good 'deconstruction' vids and pics of high rise blocks on the Sloyan Doyle website. I don't know what decides an explosive end rather than a hacking?

[PhilipG]

5 April 2007.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1052/663659087_f5c5e34be8_o.jpg

[Kev]

Something that I've wondered about for a while about those blocks, why have the bottom few floors on each been boarded up? Have people still been in them?

[Paul D]

Something that I've wondered about for a while about those blocks, why have the bottom few floors on each been boarded up? Have people still been in them?

They're about to be demolished Kev,most of the window frames have been removed now.

[PhilipG]

The first one is almost gone.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1425/775990218_ab2028a290_o.jpg

[customhouse]

Apart from Vigilante Justice, which nobody seems to want. The only other thing that can be done is to Petition Parliament to bring back Corporal Punshment including Hanging. If enough people get together from around the country and sign the Petition, the Pollies will have to do something about it. And to Hell with the EU in Brussels. These thugs only recognise violence, and some State administered violence with the ultimate deterrent of hanging would soon calm them down.... Ask the older people in the Isle of Man did the Birch work. They'll tell you it did.

[wallasey]

Great image there Phil, do you know how long the blocks have been derelict?

I went to Norris Green back in June and this is what my camera snapped...

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/8551/20070608082px2.jpg
Broadway, Norris Green The New Broadway Pub, a building which is just oozing with thirties character.

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/3751/20070608083sp2.jpg
Broadway, Norris Green Broadway shopping precinct was predominantly built in the 1930's along with the surrounding estates. Even in today's supermarket orientated society, the small businesses are doing rather well. There is a great cooked chicken shop situated behind the blue van which does a roaring trade and looks great from the bus stop outside. There are a few chain shops in Broadway such as Home Bargains but on the whole, is a pleasant suburban high street in which to come on a lazy afternoon.

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/6039/20070608086np5.jpg
Broadway, Norris Green Looking up Broadway to the pub, what looks like a cinema can be seen off to the right whilst the road itself curves effortlessly out of view with the arcade of shops following suit.

Admittedly, I don't normally come to this corner of the city but might come a little more regularly than before as there are quite a few nice quirks to be found in this area from looking through the window of the number 14!

[steveb]

The what looks like a cinema in Broadway was origionaly the regal cinema
later converted to a bingo hall, and recently closed down due to the
smoking ban, or so the owners said

[lindylou]

The library is a typical 1930s style building too. The same brickwork style as those shops.

[Ernie]

:PDT_Aliboronz_24:The New Broadway was a local of mine years ago, one
of the best pints of bitter around, sadly not many go in there now.

[Howie]

The Socialist 30 August 2007 (http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/TheSocialistContents2.htm?issue=2007/500)

Massive deprivation in Norris Green, Liverpool

By Tony Aitman

The press and TV have been full of glaring headlines about crime in Liverpool following the death of 11 year old Rhys Jones. With glee, they have jumped on the continuing warfare between rival gangs in Norris Green and Croxteth. But behind those headlines lies a story of council neglect, long term unemployment, poor housing, and the continual criminalisation of young people with no future, and not much of a present.

Norris Green is an area of massive deprivation. There are 32,428 "Super Output Areas" in the UK, the basis of comparing levels of poverty, where 1 represents the most deprived, and 354 the least; nowhere does Norris Green score more than 2.

The area of Norris Green where I work, a row of shops in Scargreen Avenue called the Strand, is typical of this. This was the headquarters of Liam "Smigger" Smith, whose murder a year ago was the catalyst for the current round of violence. Every day, he and his mates would gather there, outside the local off-licence, smoking dope; the off-licence has a sign in the window: "No smoking spliffs in the shop".

But where else is there for them to go? There are no jobs for them to go to – 41% of Norris Green's population is without work, compared to a Liverpool average of 34%. It would be hard for most of them to get work if there was any, as 45% of Norris Green youth have no educational qualification. The jobs that are available pay appalling wages – the average income in Norris Green is £17,000 compared to a Liverpool average of £22,500, and a national median wage of £23, 244.

Housing is an on-going scandal. An indication of the quality of housing is the council tax band – 0.3% of Norris Green houses are in the C band or above, compared to 21% in Liverpool as a whole. Like many areas with historically low house prices, it is the norm in Liverpool for people to be owner-occupiers – over 70% of people own their own homes. Yet, in Norris Green, this figure is 42%, with 58% living in "social landlord" property or council estates. For years, these estates have suffered appalling council neglect.

Then there was the scandal of the Boot Estate, just down the road from Scargreen Avenue. Occupiers were told their homes were to be rebuilt and the area regenerated. They were moved out into temporary accommodation and their homes were demolished. It was then decided not to rebuild at all – leaving hundreds without the homes they had lived in for years and in worse housing than ever.

At the same time, the council is spending millions on the Capital of Culture – a jamboree that will completely bypass the ordinary working class of Liverpool – and criminalising youth such as those in Norris Green in the process. The centre of Liverpool around the Bluecoat building used to be a centre of small cafes, alternative clothing and jewellery stores, second hand bookshops and record shops, frequented by young people from throughout the city.

Now, bought up by the Duke of Westminster, all this has been closed down to be rebuilt as up-market shops and restaurants, with the youth kept out by a private army of security guards. With nowhere to go, they are herded by the police from one part of the city centre to another. Small wonder they feel alienated from the city authorities and "law and order".

To add insult to injury, the council is now begging for further loans to get itself out of the mess it is in, loans which will, according to their own figures, add £52 to the bill to be paid by each Liverpool resident. Oddly, the Liverpool Echo, which screamed for government intervention when the 1980s Militant-led Labour council sought loans to build houses and nurseries rather than a bean-feast for the rich, has remained strangely silent.

And what of crime in Norris Green? Unlike the image given in the press, it is lower than the rest of Liverpool – 159 crimes per 1000 population, compared to 175 in Liverpool as a whole. That many young people have been driven into a life of drugs and gangs is appalling – the deaths of Liam Smith and Rhys Jones at such young ages have been a tragic waste of young lives. Yes, the gangs do intimidate and frighten many people in the area, and Rhys' death is a terrible by-product of this – but the situation has been made worse by the very actions of the police and the media themselves.

When Smigger Smith died last year, flowers and graffiti lined the Strand. Chalked on every available surface were salutations to the Noggsy Soldier and every pole in the street bore a garland. An arrangement was made with the police and the local community that these could stay until after the funeral. The day before the funeral, the police came round warning everyone to keep closed the following day – and this appeared in the local press as that the gangs had threatened people. However, we had received not a single threat from any of the youths involved, and, true to their word, they removed all the tributes as agreed.

How can the problems of drugs and crime be solved in an area like Norris Green? The government has one answer – the Criminal Justice Centre, a fast-track court dealing with offenders in the area, pioneered in the area of Liverpool covering Norris Green. I was part of a group that met with David Fletcher, appointed as the Judge of the CJC just before it opened. He outlined the social poverty and deprivation that lay behind crime in Norris Green. "And so" he said, "the government has decided to grant unlimited funds to" … wait for it … "the Criminal Justice Centre". Not to housing, jobs, education, social centres or sports centres, but to one of the plushest courts in the country with oak panelling and marble flooring, and a judge who proudly boasted that he could tell who was guilty before he even heard their defence.

We cannot in any way defend the gangs, the drugs and the warfare that has resulted in so many lives being wasted. We can, however, unlike the media who weep crocodile tears while their circulation goes up, point to a solution. A massive rebuilding programme, decent education in properly equipped schools, proper jobs on a living wage, as part of a socialist programme to rebuild the economy. In the short term, that means a new, mass, campaigning workers' party that could give some hope and direction to the lost youth of Norris Green.

Source: The Socialist (http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/2007/500/index.html?id=np1778.htm)

[Howie]

Horror and heartbreak in Croxteth – What is the cause? What is the answer?

Tony Mulhearn

The appalling murder of young Rhys Jones has generated outrage, disbelief, anger and a demand for a solution to the brutalisation of a section of youth.

Symbolising the massive attention this tragedy has attracted, Everton footballers and supporters at the last match had a minute's applause in sympathy with Rhys, a passionate Evertonian, and his family who attended the match. Many in the crowd were moved to tears. Everton footballers laid tributes at the murder scene.

Rhys's murder has provoked millions of words and gallons of ink: some demanding tougher laws, others calling for tougher policing, many writing off today's youth as a lost generation. The most reactionary solutions, ranging from forcing youth into a special army detachment to incarcerating those wearing hoods into special camps, have been voiced over the local airwaves.

As always, the reality demands a study of a situation that has developed over generations. While Rhys was gunned down in an opulent area of Croxteth, the largest private development in Western Europe containing a mix of semi-detached and expensive detached properties, it is surrounded by some of the most deprived districts in the city.

The adjacent Norris Green area has a history of youth belonging to gangs who have access to guns and drugs. A hard core tend to draw in other youth on the fringes into a life of criminality. They could be categorised as the children of Thatcher's children. 'There is no such thing as society' is Thatcher's legacy.

This area of Liverpool was once a much-desired area where working-class people from the slums of downtown Liverpool that couldn't cope with the exploding population were housed in the interwar and post-war period. Council housing with neat gardens and well-kept frontages was the rule. Work was found in the factories that lined the roads leading from the estate. Plesseys, CAV Lucas, English Electric, Bus manufacturers, and the Kirkby industrial estate, three miles up the East Lancs Road, provided work for tens of thousands.

In addition many continued to work as dockers, shipbuilders, merchant seaman and the plethora of trades connected to the thriving maritime industry, as well as finding trades in the construction, printing and the supply industries.

The policies of deindustrialisation started under a Labour government in the seventies and accelerated by Thatcher after her election in 1979 as a deliberate policy laid waste the bulk of industry. Between 1973 and 1983, when the Liverpool 47 (http://www.liverpool47.org/) took control of the council, 65% of manufacturing in Liverpool had been destroyed and, in spite of the titanic efforts of the 47 to create jobs and defend services for which they were surcharged and removed from office, the process has continued ever since.

The Joseph Rowntree Foundation report published in the year 2000 revealed that in parts of the Croxteth area between 50% and 70% were in poverty, and unemployment has been consistently around 36% since the 1970s. Peter Stoney, Liverpool University's leading economist, argued that the figures were still relevant today. In a nutshell, the capitalist policies of neo-liberalism have destroyed a whole culture.

It would be utopian to view the past through rose-coloured spectacles; sections of youth have always formed gangs, engaging in fighting to demonstrate their macho image. This activity grew or declined in intensity over the decades depending on the social and economic situation. Today, when the gap between rich and poor grows apace; when meaningful jobs have largely disappeared, when guns and drugs are attainable, a lethal cocktail exists, which directly impacts on the lives of ordinary, decent working-class people.

To paraphrase US senator Jesse Jackson, on his tour of deprived areas of Britain: 'When jobs and a future go out the door, guns and drugs come in through the window.'

A striking feature surrounding the latest tragedy is the absence of an intervention by the labour movement. Rhys's tragic death raises in the starkest fashion the need for a fundamental change in society. It raises the need for a socialist government which would directly address the needs of deprived areas with the same alacrity as New Labour encourages the super rich to increase their already obscene wealth or allocates billions to update weapons systems.

In 1982 when Croxteth Comprehensive School was earmarked for closure, the Liverpool Labour Party joined hands with local community activists in a campaign, which included demonstrations and marches, which assisted Labour to power in the city. In 1983 the newly elected socialist council, and the magnificent efforts by the local community, ensured that the school remained open as a vital facility.

New Labour today in Liverpool has neither the policies, political will, organisation nor members to organise the necessary level of activity to meet the needs of working-class communities.

The tragedy of Rhys's death underlines again what is becoming clearer; that a new workers' party is vital in defending and advancing the requirements of working-class communities.

Tony Mulhearn was President of the district Liverpool Labour Party during the 1983-87 battle by the Liverpool 47 Councillors against the Thatcher government

Read 'Liverpool - A City That Dared to Fight' online (http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/liverpool/)

Source: The Socialist (http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/2007/500/index.html?id=np1777.htm)

[kat2]

I think alot of this is to do not with deprevation, but with the lack of social education. its a spiral past down, how to scam the dole, and so history repeats itself, free housing free dole each interlocked. I have seen new build estates only to have exactly the same problems, low education, low employment, so, yes, housing and health are inter twined, but education is the only way forward and since both parent and child cannot be bothered so the seed is sown, for a life of crime and unemployment.#
kat
sad fact but sadly true.

[lottie]

Good post Howie, i live near the boot estate and there is nothing for the kids to do, but they don't help themselves by being abusive. I'm lucky that where i am it's ok. It is actually a minority who are causing these problems. I think generally the community are ok on the whole.

[kat2]

gosh, how many times have i heard that theres nothing for the kids to do!
*gawed* compared with years ago theres plenty, theres television on twenty four seven, theres computers, theres playstations, most of the so called thugs have all these sorts of things, theres mobile phones,
the trouble with todays children is that they have forgotten how to play, they think play means expensive toys, mobile phones,
kat:disgust:

[shytalk]

[size=4] The most reactionary solutions, ranging from forcing youth into a special army detachment to incarcerating those [B]wearing hoods into special camps, have been voiced over the local airwaves

Would this include Arabs ?

[Kev]

I hope the author isn't trying to blame all this on capital of culture and investment in the city center and other areas?

There's also a lot of reference to 'Working Class', haven't you got to be 'working'?

Is this is an image of deprivation? (http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=947&d=1168463581)

Or the images of tear arsing around on motorbikes and owning expensive dogs, priorities?

[Howie]

Peoples behaviour is not determined by some objective reality but rather by their subjective perceptions of that reality. It therefore follows that it is not absolute poverty but relative poverty that gives rise to social problems. It is the unacceptable level of inequality that is the underlying factor which is damaging our society and in Liverpool we have seen the gap widen between rich and poor more than any other city in the UK.

[Kev]

Rather than working out of your situation, follow crowd and use violence when-ever it suits their mood. Boundaries stop a person from going down the criminal route, u begin to form a longer term view of how to get yourself out of a situation, these boundaries formed by parenting, regardless of wether or not there is earned money coming in.

[lottie]

Kat, i agree that the kids have no imagination about play, it has to cost, but some of the kids here want to go out, not sit on computers and watch tv. All they have is a swimming pool. I'm not making excuses for them but i won't allow my kids to go to places like Croxteth Park on their own due to the behaviour of the minority, I'm lucky that my kids (and my neighbours) have got a very good imagination and play the games we did as kids. I think that the parents play an important role in the upbringing of their kids and should be held accountable to an extent.

[Howie]

I'll reiterate my point another way. A group of workers may be p!ssed off at only getting a 2% below inflation pay rise (i.e. a pay cut) but they are going to be even more p!ssed off if at the same time their chief executive gets a 25% pay rise. The same principle exists. Do you think it helps the people of inner city Liverpool to see the development of luxury apartments and designer stores in the city centre that they can't afford to live or shop in whilst their communities stagnate and their incomes fall?

[AK1]

There is alot of time and money being spent in norris green and croxteth with new community centres, training centres and housing being built, but it is a slow and long process that will take quite a few more years to sort out.
All this talk about kids having nothing to do is a load of b#ll. There is plenty to do, but these yobs don't even try to do anything. They like causing damage and beating people up, they just use the 'nothing to do' excuse to try and justify it. Yes, when I was a kid I also got bored at times, but I didn't go around vandalising property and messing with guns, why?, because I was brought up properly by parents who cared about me and tought me what is right and wrong.
You can educate kids in school as much as you want, but if they have parents that basically don't give a sh#t, they are more than likely going to become just like their parents, no job, 10 kids and a foul attitude.

The only way to stop this cycle of what is basically child neglect is to use social services alot more. If a parent has a young child (say between 6-16) and they let them do what they want and don't care where they are or what they are doing, social services should become involved because they are neglecting to care for their child. Benefits could then be cut or even stopped altogether. This would have a huge effect in cutting yobish behaviour and stopping the cycle of deprivation.

[Paul D]

It's simple,stop their parents benefits if they cause any trouble and they'd soon clamp down on them,problem solved.

[Ged]

If kids these days talk of nothing to do with all these free (if on the dole) sports centres and 25m pools, then i'd love to take them back in time to say 1975 when you had to make your own simple pleasures. Real life interactive games, not sat in front of a p.c. - it's all a load of twaddle.

[Jock]

Whats really amazed me is that The Lobster pub is finally being investigated (Echo Online: http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2007/09/03/gang-shame-pub-to-face-crackdown-100252-19726512/)

As I've stated earlier in this thread, I moved in to Crocky area over 2 years ago - I've never had the bottle to go into this pub. I've asked a few people about it, and been basically warned never to go in there.

I don't understand how it takes so long for the police/authorities to take action on these places, when the general public seem to be completely wise to it...?

[John(Zappa)]

[QUOTE=Jock;76760]Whats really amazed me is that The Lobster pub is finally being investigated (Echo Online: http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2007/09/03/gang-shame-pub-to-face-crackdown-100252-19726512/)

As I've stated earlier in this thread, I moved in to Crocky area over 2 years ago - I've never had the bottle to go into this pub. I've asked a few people about it, and been basically warned never to go in there.


Well I don't drink but I have a sense of adventure.People used to say the same thing over The Crown pub.It was alright in there most times.
Pubs have always had a reputation,some alot more than others but I suppose its a "word of mouth" thing by people who don't drink in there.
Remember "The State" ? That had a bad rep but I had no trouble there.
I suppose it all depends on the area and the kids, policing and the managers.
You should never ever fear going in anywhere in Liverpool (unless you're walking round with a Man utd kit on).You live here!!!

[Kev]

You should never ever fear going in anywhere in Liverpool (unless you're walking round with a Man utd kit on).You live here!!!

This happened to me John, when I was involved in filming The 51st State with Samuel L Jackson (name drop).

In The Yew Tree Pub, check this thread (http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showpost.php?p=51726&postcount=30).

[John(Zappa)]

This happened to me John, when I was involved in filming The 51st State with Samuel L Jackson (name drop).

In The Yew Tree Pub, check this thread (http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showpost.php?p=51726&postcount=30).

Hahahaha.You poor sod.
My bro was in that film as a knuckle head.He woulda helped you out if you got a bit of hassle with a few REAL scousers:PDT_Aliboronz_24:

[Kev]

It was a weird day. Getting off a coach only to be greeted by local kidders shouting all kinds of stuff at us. Every lad that got off the coach shouted back at them in scouse same as them (in their united shirts lol), very surreal.

"We are scousers, honest", was the common shout back. lol

[SteH]

The thug who ordered the murder of Liam Smith from his prison cell has been given a minimum of 28 years in jail, whilst a 16 year old involved in it has been given a minimum of 18 years. This is a statement and a half from the judicial system that they are going to fight back, the Yorkshir Ripper killed 13 women and only got 2 years more.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/7015721.stm

[Ged]

Excellent news, it's about time they got tough but I think a high profile advertisement campaign is needed to send shock waves down the spines of these thugs (if they've got a spine that is)

For instance, murderers on the loose like Rhys killer should be left in no doubt that not only is the net closing in but the longer it takes and the more money it costs, the sentence will be twice as touch with no early release. They'll play the chance game up to now, knowing that sentences have previously been too soft.

[Libertarian]

The thug who ordered the murder of Liam Smith from his prison cell has been given a minimum of 28 years in jail, whilst a 16 year old involved in it has been given a minimum of 18 years. This is a statement and a half from the judicial system that they are going to fight back, the Yorkshir Ripper killed 13 women and only got 2 years more.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/7015721.stm

Brilliant News!!!! Hope the **** rots in his cell.

[Kev]

Arn't the residents up in arms about recent media portrayal of the area? Camera crews have decended on the area and have portrayed it as a gangsters/ hoodie paradise.

[SteH]

Arn't the residents up in arms about recent media portrayal of the area? Camera crews have decended on the area and have portrayed it as a gangsters/ hoodie paradise.

Yes there was a report on one of the news programmes earlier in the week and they showed archive shots of the boarded up properties on the Boot Estate, without saying that there is large scale rebuilding going on there at present.

[Jock]

Certainly all the national newspaper reports I've read have portrayed the local area in very bad light.

It is a shame that only one side (the minority) has been reported in the past couple of weeks, but thats to be expected with the media I suppose.

Having said that, its not exactly difficult for the media to uncover in order to report - its in your face when you go through Croxteth. Wasn't the BBC Reporter's car pelted with stones by the youths in Croxteth when he first starting reporting?

[Ged]

It doesn't need the newspapers to put the locals in a bad light when they seem to be doing an alright job of that themselves.

http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_headline=police-to-guard-gang-hit-sunday-league-football%26method=full%26objectid=19921005%26sitei d=50061-name_page.html

[John(Zappa)]

It doesn't need the newspapers to put the locals in a bad light when they seem to be doing an alright job of that themselves.

http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_headline=police-to-guard-gang-hit-sunday-league-football%26method=full%26objectid=19921005%26sitei d=50061-name_page.html

My mate who was playing said it was scary when he heard gunshots.
The ref was gonna continue but most of the lads said "no way".
I would expect a scrap at sunday footy but not stabbings and shootings.
These kids need a good bit of parental guidance and the parents need a good education to give that guidance.Do they have it ? I think not.
I can remember when norris green was a bit of a posh area.:PDT_Xtremez_42:



Remember,there's a big difference between kneeling down and bending over!

[Ged]

When Norris Green was first built in the 1930s by City architect Lancelot Keay, builder of over 35,000 new homes including tenements rising from the unsanitary slum clearances, like Speke it was a blueprint for all future developments on that scale and was a grand concept. From the air, it has a sense of a great layout and had its own baths, library, amenities etc. It's sad the way it's gone.

[Kev]

POLICE flooded the streets of Croxteth and Norris Green to hunt down teenage yobs terrorising frightened residents. Read (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2007/10/15/nine-arrests-in-big-blitz-on-city-gangs-100252-19953442/)

[John(Zappa)]

The hoodies will start wearing ribbons so they don't get a pull.
Not one hobby bobby involved in any arrests ? Get rid!

[Ged]

These raids and high presence have to be welcomed and on going. As one bloke on Radio Merseyside said today, even if you built more youth centres, the type we're on about here wouldn't be seen dead in them anyway and would just wreck them.

[bdm]

Can I tell you all something without offending anybody?

Are you willing to listen to an informed observer, who is an outsider to Liverpool and its local culture?

Your police in this town, indeed this entire nation, are way too concerned with political correctness, which in turn makes them ineffective. Believe me, I consider myself a left-winger, indeed one of the last true Socialists, but I have witnessed time and time again your local cops getting punked off by 15 year olds. It makes the officers look foolish, and it empowers the punk kid to be even more disruptive and disrespectful.

Recently, I was at a Liverpool match, and outside the gates in the Anfield Road a few of the local kids (..I mean kids too, probably 14 or 15 at most), not entering the game, but just lingering about. They were standing outside a shop drinking beer and hurling abuse at all the 'tourists' invading their neighbourhood. When two burly PC's approached these punks, the cops were almost apologetic to the kids and begged these urchins to behave. Naturally, the kids hurled even more abuse at the football supporters, but worst of all they told the cops to 'F Off'. I couldn't believe my ears! However, what I couldn't believe even more was the the fact that the two cops just walked away and did NOTHING!

Let me tell you, if this was New York, that gang of punks would be looking for their teeth on that corner. After that they would have been going to jail via the Hospital. I'm not advocating police abuse of power, but these cops can't be neutered to the point where they don't have the upper hand in dealing with street thugs. The street is a rough and tumble place. You can't rigidly enforce rules of conduct on officers trying to maintain order in the most unorderly places. Forcing the local cops to grin and bear such abuse is stupid and naive. I'd rather the Internal Affairs Division of the Merseyside Police be left out of the discussion for a while if it meant getting safer streets again. The only thing these yobs understand is the slap of a stern hand and the negative renforcement that comes with a jail cell. You are not going to be able to use reason with a drunk abusive 15 year old who has never had the steady hand of a father or male role model.

One other thing while I'm on my soap box. You don't nearly have enough police officers working in Merseyside. And these unpaid uniformed volunteer what-ever-you-call-them don't cut it either. You need thousands of additional rank-and-file police officers hired in Merseyside (and I would suspect everywhere elsewhere in the UK too). I know the cops are highly paid over here, and this would put an additional burden on taxes and government spending, but from everything I've seen in this country, you no longer can afford not to hire more cops.

[Howie]

if this was New York

Even with the drop in crime rates under Giuliani New York has far higher levels of crimes reported per head of population than Liverpool. :snf (41):

[Ged]

If we must have the community support officer type enrollment, wouldn't they be better suited to tackle the paperwork and red tape we keep hearing ties up the proper officers, and let them get out on the streets doing the job. Better still though, just get rid of the paperwork in the first place, aren't computers and databases supposed to have quickened things up?

[bdm]

Even better still, just get rid of the community support officers and hire a lot more real cops to take their place. It sounds to me this community support officer concept is another way to backhand the cop's union, the police federation or whatever it's called. Eitherway, I'm sure the rank-and-file coppers aren't too pleased that low-paid/volunteer civilians acting as community support officers are doing their jobs. When you lose the morale of the cops through union busting antics like this, you'll get police apathy, and thus higher crime rates. Treat the cops and their trade union fairly, and you'll get more work out of them. I'll also reiterate that I think we should let them do their jobs and not meddle too much in how they go about cleaning up the streets--for now that is. I don't want them to have a free hand forever, just enough leeway to regain some order is all. Nonetheless, the only way to attack this juvenile crime epidemic is to hire a lot more cops and quit interfering with how the cops do their jobs. Until that happens, you're going to get more incidents like the one I described in my last post. You can't neuter your police force in the name of political correctness.

[Ged]

Well there's a lot to be said for the old clip around the ear times but those days will never come back as that's now 'assault' and where there's blame etc etc - you know the rest.

I remember the OSD and the suss law and by and large that was a good excuse for bad coppers to have a free hand on beating people up in the back of vans - remember the documentary not long ago that saw coppers sitting off in a car park eating chips and ignoring a radio call to go to an incident.

Yes, police apathy has to be addressed and i'd even go for recruiting ex soldiers or current ones should their need here when brought back from Iraq and Afghanistan result in them being underused by the army. Lets see the thugs and plazzy gangster deal with someone who's done the real deal.

[lindylou]

You are right in what you say BDM.

I'd love those yobs to get a good boot up the backside.


When I go on holiday in southern Spain I notice how authoritive the police look. They look like they don't take no messing !
They look like they will use the baton no trouble !
I remember when we were on a train and the guardia civil were patroling up and down the the carriages - and you only had to take one look at them to see they mean business ! The batons (and I think they had guns) literally brushed past your shoulder as you sat there :shock:


I wish we had stern police like that.

Our police are just made to look foolish now - through no fault of their own.


ps,

Ged. you are right - we need the army now.

[John(Zappa)]

Wooo there,
we got stern police here.I have witnessed the way they "bully" the kids.
Some are too handy with their fists.I have seen police sticking two fingers up to the kids and shout abuse at them.This did shock me as I didn't think I would ever see something as stupid as that.
The police also planted some hash on my nephew so they could give him a street caution.Great stuff.My nephew doesn't even smoke!!
So we still have the bully police,the stupid police and the hobby bobby police where I live.
We have had 2 trial bikes going around for the past few days doing what thugs do on them.
No sign of any police anywhere.Am lucky if I see a copper once a week by me.
Anyway thats my two peneths worth!

[steveb]

Wooo there,
we got stern police here.I have witnessed the way they "bully" the kids.
Some are too handy with their fists.I have seen police sticking two fingers up to the kids and shout abuse at them.This did shock me as I didn't think I would ever see something as stupid as that.
The police also planted some hash on my nephew so they could give him a street caution.Great stuff.My nephew doesn't even smoke!!
So we still have the bully police,the stupid police and the hobby bobby police where I live.
We have had 2 trial bikes going around for the past few days doing what thugs do on them.
No sign of any police anywhere.Am lucky if I see a copper once a week by me.
Anyway thats my two peneths worth!


John got your PM, but can't reply as it says that you won't
accept PM,s ?. Can you mail me direct at

steve.m1swb@tiscali.co.uk

[John(Zappa)]

Replied!

[Jock]

Better still though, just get rid of the paperwork in the first place, aren't computers and databases supposed to have quickened things up?

Having listened recently to a phone in on 5Live about the amount of paperwork currently required for any arrests, its really quite shocking how much there is.

One of the complaints being raised time and again by the officers phoning in was the repetition of data on various computer systems. I can clearly remember one saying that you needed to fill out similar information across 6 systems.

Working in IT as a programmer I found it quite shocking. This would be relatively simple project to implement to share data between the systems and therefore reduce the amount of data entry for officers.

The reason given why PCSOs don't do the paperwork was because half the time they'd then have to contact the original officer and get further details to then fill-out. The rational was that it was just as quick for the original officer to fill out all the details. However, it could be improved by the PCSO doing all the repetive information surely...?!?

Needless to say the phone in left me flabber gasted.

My next door neighbour works behind a desk in the Police force described a very repetitive job that takes up a lot of man hours each month. It could easily be solved by a very quick computer program, and thus freeing up time for people to get on with other things... Not necessarily getting more officers out on the beat, but certainly making things more productive...

[Kev]

A NOTORIOUS Croxteth eyesore former pub is to be demolished in a bid to help regenerate and improve the neighbourhood. Read (http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/regional-news/2007/10/30/bulldozers-ready-to-flatten-derelict-grot-spot-pub-64375-20029527/)

[Ged]

Went past this on sat, yes what an eyesore - also went past the Western Approaches - there's a pic just been put on my pubs page - guess what was outside. Two police cars, police with kids up against the cars being searched - all black 'uniforms' - the kids that is not the police. Why hang around outside a pub, please don't tell me all their parents were inside?

A little further up, getting a pic of the Fir Tree - again, the police in abundance with cars in the car park due to the Rhys murder.

I do hope the authorities can do something with the area but also hope the police don't disenfranchise themselves from the public by doing anything as silly as JohnZappa said earlier.

[John(Zappa)]

I do hope the authorities can do something with the area but also hope the police don't disenfranchise themselves from the public by doing anything as silly as JohnZappa said earlier.

I do know most of the kids now have a street caution.Your not cool now if you don't have one.Its a capital of gun culture thing they say???

[corky100]

"When I was young, 'PC' meant 'Police Constable'. Nowadays I can't seem to tell the Difference"

(Manic Street Preachers).

How true that statement is.


Why is our Police force still subject to human rights and these petty little laws that prevent anyone from doing, saying or touching anyone, for fear of prosecution? How do you police laws, if laws make themselves unpoliceable?

And when will the Government realise that a fine for a serious offence is NOT a deterrent?

[wallasey]

I was talking with a lad from West Derby today, he was telling me that Broadway is regarded as separate to Norris Green...Parnethon Drive being one of the cut-offs.

Now, I must admit to have been somewhat surprised to find this, I always regarded this area as being Norris Green as a whole, with Broadway being the main shopping street for the various estates.

Can anyone say that this is the case??? I am not saying that I disagree with the statement, but I am a little baffled at this remark!

[Ged]

Broadway and Norris Green have always been intertwined in my mind, perhaps I was wrong.

[ItsaZappathing]

Well Broadway is part of Norris Green. As is the Strand. The Strand are fighting with Broadway and Landford/Sparrowhall.
Partheneon drive is just a walk through. Nothing to worry about around there.
When I was younger The Strand,Broadway and Landford all sort of stuck together.
The divide seems to be The crown pub and The strand. The Broadway firm seem to be stuck in the middle

Regarding the very first post on this thread.....
My nephew took that picture of Phil Wooley with the shotgun wounds. It happened out of the blue. They were all just standing on a corner when the gunman came around the corner in a car.

[wallasey]

See that's what I thought...Broadway is a part of Norris Green! But from what the post above suggests, Norris Green seems to have become segregated into these "territories" for wanton of a better expression. I dread to think what Brodie and Keay would make of it all now.

I don't come from this area, but I know it of sorts...I am thinking the "Strand" is the Row of Shops by Scargreen/Utting Ave???

[ItsaZappathing]

See that's what I thought...Broadway is a part of Norris Green! But from what the post above suggests, Norris Green seems to have become segregated into these "territories" for wanton of a better expression. I dread to think what Brodie and Keay would make of it all now.

I don't come from this area, but I know it of sorts...I am thinking the "Strand" is the Row of Shops by Scargreen/Utting Ave???

Yeah that's the one. These territories never existed when I was younger. I used to hang around places like The Crown,The strand,Broadway and crocky.
It was always a school thing - "Our school is harder than yours" when I was a teen. Out of uniform the school enemies where forgotten about.Some you'd even be friends with .

[wallasey]

I never knew all this about Norris Green! We don't really have anything like this in Birkenhead, just a few dodgy estates.

Thanks for the info! I'll remember this the next time I am on the 14!

[Partsky]

I know its a relatively old thread but I have been off the site due to ill health and all this stuff makes my blood boil. Lindylou, how I agree with you, (mostly.} I used to work on housing for these estates and the decent people, as always, massively outweigh the scallies; every time. Unfortunately, if you live next door or in the same road as these cowards then its very difficult to stick your neck out. I know, because I was one of the so called "officials" trying to get people to do just that. It takes an extraordinary amount of courage to go to court against this shower as they dont use words but they use bricks, threats, knives and guns. Amazingly, brave people continue to give witness testimonies. Its too easy for the parents of the Scalls to look the other way. I have said it before but they know what funds the expensive clothes, bikes and trainers but they look away or blame everyone else (The schools, their backgrounds, the social workers, the police). There is occasionally a grain of truth in that but more often than not, its social and parental cowardice. The inability or unwillingness to parent with boundaries. And as for the Scally Shrines.......... How many more places will have "shrines" (a desecration of a sacred word) to those who often rob cars and total themselves or are caught up in gang warfare. On Formby bypass a couple of years ago gangs of young lads were sat around one of these "shrines" in garden chairs, drinking ale. For days! If my kids stole a car and drove at dangerous speed, killing themselves, I would grieve, of course I would, but quietly. Is this a nationwide trend? Does anyone know?

[Kev]

THE ?200m regeneration of Liverpool?s Boot Estate will not be hit by the credit crunch, developers pledged today. Read (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2008/12/27/boot-estate-plans-will-still-go-ahead-100252-22555931/)

[Paddy]

partsky: I think false sentiment is a very strong trend and is reinforced by alchol and drugs. The idea that people dont want to join in mainstream lifestyles is not progressive it is more about deviance. :002: