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Waterways
10-13-2009, 11:58 AM
The longest tunnel in the UK was supposed to be the London Underground Northern Line tunnel, which runs from the north of London, south, under the Thames and emerges in south London.

On Liverpool's Merseyrail: Since the 1970s when new tunnels were constructed in Liverpool's centre, from Birkenhead Park station to Brunswick Station at Liverpool's South Docks is all one tunnel with only air shafts in strategic places. Does anyone know the total length of this tunnel run? It must be approaching 5 miles. It must be one of the longest, if not the longest tunnel lengths in the country.

pablo42
10-13-2009, 02:56 PM
Wouldn't that apply to the Circle Line on the Underground in London, WW.

Waterways
10-13-2009, 03:19 PM
Wouldn't that apply to the Circle Line on the Underground in London, WW.

I thought that. But it is open to the air at various points. Edgware Road station is totally open air and not in a deep cutting - from street level it is a few steps down to the platform. It may be pedantic points and the Circle Line can maybe regarded as the longest. I don't know the length of the Glasgow loop which is 100% underground.

Also, the Tunnel from Central emerges for a few yards at Herculaneum, then back into a another tunnel to near St Michaels Station. This is 1082 yards, approx 3/4 mile. If the Central Line in London is regarded as all one tunnel then 1082 yards can be added to the B'head Park to St Michaels, which gives 4.72 miles - I think.

I don't know why they never insisted this small open section of track at Herculaneum was not covered to create one tunnel as this section of line is a noise nuisance to the now many residents around the area. It can't be expensive to close the track in using concrete arches.

Waterways
10-13-2009, 07:32 PM
I did some looking:

The longest underground rail tunnel in the UK is from East Finchley to Morden on the London Underground Northern line - just over 17 miles in length.

The longest underground rail tunenl in the world is:
Seikan Tunnel in Japan 33.5 miles long.
The Channel tunnel is 31.3 miles long.

Our less than 5 miles of tunnel is tiny to them. But over 4 miles of tunnel is still loooooooooong.

wsteve55
10-13-2009, 09:18 PM
I did some looking:

The longest underground rail tunnel in the UK is from East Finchley to Morden on the London Underground Northern line - just over 17 miles in length.

The longest underground rail tunenl in the world is:
Seikan Tunnel in Japan 33.5 miles long.
The Channel tunnel is 31.3 miles long.

Our less than 4 miles of tunnel is tiny to them. But over 4 miles of tunnel is still loooooooooong.

Dont sound like much fun! 33 miles underground?......... there again,with the speed of Japanese trains,wouldn't take long!

Waterways
10-14-2009, 02:22 AM
I did some surfing on underground rail systems. It is amazing that no one has mentioned that Liverpool has the second oldest underground rail network in the world - 1886. They say Budapest was the second oldest in 1892. Those in Glasgow say Glasgow was the second oldest in the UK. Sure they were.

The first three tunnels bored under a metropolis (under streets), were, the Crown St tunnel, Wapping Tunnel and the Lime Street tunnel - all in Liverpool. The oldest used rail tunnel in the world is in Liverpool and the oldest used rail station as well.

Amazing how they forget Liverpool. No surprise.

Waterways
10-14-2009, 11:00 AM
Another point about Liverpool. I have looked at underground stations. As far as I can gleen James Street Station and Hamilton Square were the first deep underground rail stations in the world bored through rock - opened 1886. The London stations until 1890 appear to all have been cut & cover stations.

BY 1915 Merseyside had the largest urban rail network in world after London. And the second largest electric one too.

Why doesn't the city shout loud about its historical achievements?

Waterways
10-14-2009, 11:44 AM
Getting into this rail stuff now. The world's first "operational" electric underground railway was the City and South London Line, opened in 1890. It was originally to be cable hauled by steam engines. The cable contractor went bust, so they looked at electric traction and adopted it. They used an electric locomotive to pull the cars.

The Liverpool Overhead Railway, opened 1893, from its initial design it was to be all electric traction. The world's first designed fully electric urban railway. The London railway ended up electric because of a liquidation, not by design. The first electric tramway was in a small part of Berlin in 1881. I am not sure if this counts as a streetcar (tram) is not an urban railway, they are electric buses on rails on streets. The Volk's Electric narrow gauge railway ran along Brighton's front in 1883. This was a tourist amusement attraction and very light in construction. The initial 1883 line was intended as a temporary summer attraction only, but stayed and is still in operation today. This was no rapid-transit urban railway.

The Overhead's trains did not need a locomotive unit to pull the train, as in London, as each car had its own electric motor under the floor - the precursor of the modern underground train. It was also the first railway with an automatic signalling system and electric signalling lights.

I have been looking in some wiki's and some are so inaccurate is beyond belief.

kevin
10-14-2009, 12:51 PM
I did some surfing on underground rail systems. r

Isn't that dangerous - what if you meet a train?
:rolleyes:

kevin
10-14-2009, 12:53 PM
Getting into this rail stuff now...

Ignore the tongue-in-cheek comment - couldn't help myself - some really interesting posts on the thread.

pablo42
10-14-2009, 01:30 PM
Nice one WW, keep 'em comin'

Waterways
10-17-2009, 05:16 AM
More Liverpool's rail history.

Merseyrail is the second oldest urban, underground, railway in the world, however sections of the network are the oldest of any urban underground/overground railway in the world. The first underground section originated in 1886 - Green Lane to James Street.

The oldest electrified section dates from 1848, from Southport to near the old Exchange Station, now a part of the Northern Line. The oldest part of the London Underground dates from 1856, now part of the Central Line - an overground section. So older in parts than London.

It gets better. The oldest diesel section dates from 1830, being a part of the original Liverpool-Manchester Passenger railway, the world's first passenger railway, now a part of the City Line. Some do not count the City Line as Merseyrail as it is contracted out to Northern Rail who use Merseyrail colours and ticketing,but Merseyrail it is as it is within the Merseytravel executive.

If the 1829 Wapping Tunnel is brought back into use, it will be the oldest underground section of any urban railway in the world, beating London's Marylebone Rd underground section by 34 years. It would be the oldest used tunnel in the world, being the second oldest rail tunnel, used or not used, urban or not, right now.

If the 1848 Waterloo Tunnel is brought back into use, it will beat London's Marylebone Rd underground section by 15 years.

pablo42
10-17-2009, 04:34 PM
Nice one WW.

Waterways
10-19-2009, 02:24 AM
The world's oldest used railway station is Broad Green, 1830 - a part of the original Liverpool & Manchester Railway. The existing Edge Hill Station dates from 1836. Many think this station is the oldest. It is not. The original Edge Hill station is in the Edge Hill Cutting at the portal of the Wapping Tunnel. The station never had platforms, so it could be said it is still there. The access stairs are still there.

The world's first station, Crown Street, was demolished in 1836.

Broad Green Station is also on Merseyrail, which make it the oldest station on an urban metro system in the world. Also the oldest station on an underground urban railway, although the station is not underground.

Waterways
10-20-2009, 02:10 AM
Merseyrail is the second oldest urban, underground, railway in the world, however sections of the network are quite historic being the oldest of any urban railway in the world.


The first underground section with stations originated in 1886 - Mersey Railway, the world's second underground rail network.
The world's first deep-level underground railway - 1886.
The oldest currently electrified section dates from 1848, from Kirkdale to near the old Exchange Station, now a part of the Northern Line. The oldest of any electrified metro network in the world.
The oldest diesel section dates from 1830, being a part of the original Liverpool-Manchester Passenger railway, now a part of the City Line. The oldest part of any urban railway in the world.
The world's oldest used railway station, Broad Green, dating from 1830, is on the Merseyrail network.
Merseyrail runs through the worlds oldest used tunnel at Edge Hill station - 1836.


When looking at London's Underground is it beaten hands down in historical firsts.

That is just Merseyrail vs London Underground.

The Liverpool Overhead. The world's first:

Purpose "designed" electric urban railway.
Elevated electric railway.
Escalator on a railway.
Auto signalling system.
Electric light signals.
Multiple electric units - carriages with their own motors under the floors.
Light-rail carriages - built to be light in weight.


Also:
The world's first:

Two tunnels driven under a metropolis - Wapping and Crown Street Tunnels.
Passenger railway.
Passenger train station.
Goods station.

pablo42
10-20-2009, 03:11 AM
Nice one WW. I've not seen any posts from you regarding the trams and the news they've been scrapped.

Waterways
10-20-2009, 10:14 AM
Nice one WW. I've not seen any posts from you regarding the trams and the news they've been scrapped.

I wrote this on the Mersey Tram thread...........



Daily Post today...

MERSEYSIDE?S plans for a tram system have been ?virtually killed off? by the Government, a month after the scheme was formally revived.

Transport minister Sadiq Khan has written to civic leaders in Merseyside telling them they have missed a crucial funding window for the ?400m-plus Line One Liverpool to Kirkby.

He has warned transport authority Merseytravel and councils to ?look carefully at their continued development of the scheme?, which has already had more than ?70m spent on it without a single track having been laid.

He said there were other ways the objectives of the Merseytram scheme could be met and other key transport issues that needed addressing in Merseyside.

Liverpool Council leader Warren Bradley said: ?This letter virtually kills off Merseytram once and for all.?


Great news!!!!

Note: He said there were other ways the objectives of the Merseytram scheme could be met and other key transport issues that needed addressing in Merseyside.

A reference to extending Merseyrail metro? Click on the link in my sig, or this:
Click here (http://tinyurl.com/Extend-Merseyrail-CLICK-HERE)

Merseytravel, by pursuing this ridiculous tram notion instead of extending Merseyrail onto existing disused rail infrastructure, have wasted a decade. They have to focus on Merseyrail now, starting designs to use the existing tunnels under the city.

If Merseytravel had focused on extending Merseyrail around 8 to 10 years ago instead of attempting to implement misplaced trams because Manchester had them and it was way of spending government money for the sake of it, we would have a rather more comprehensive rapid-transit metro system. This would have encouraged investment into the city as underground station have proven in London and other European cities.

At least a whole decade wasted. The Transport minister has virtually told them to drop any more wasting of time and money on the project and get sensible.

pablo42
10-20-2009, 10:19 AM
Nice one WW. Do they now intend to do this or are they gonna sit back on the fence.

Waterways
10-20-2009, 11:07 AM
Nice one WW. Do they now intend to do this or are they gonna sit back on the fence.

Who knows what these people are going to do. Merseytravel came up with a silly trams scheme when extending the metro onto existing infrastructure and mothballed lines made so much more sense. It was rightly cancelled because of incompetence of design - Line 1 was joke - and misuse of funds (?70 million already spent). Despite the political dig Martin on the other thread puts in, this government did approve the trams and only because of incompetence was it cancelled - if they did it right the trams would have been built by now - thank God they were so inept. All Merseytravel have done since cancellation in 2005 is tried to save face instead of getting on and focusing on need - which is expanding the metro into inner-city districts. These districts need a boost to get investment and out of the black hole which mass of government money is needed to keep them alive.

Merseytravel appear to be concerned with extending the outer perimeter of Merseyrail: Burscough Curves, Halton Curve, line to Skem, etc. The inner -cities need attention and they have tunnels and disused stations under them. That is where the focus should be. Sefton and Wirral opposed the trams because they got nothing from them. Any extension to Merseyrail benefits all as it is all one network. For e.g, a train could be run from West Kirby on the Wirral to St Helens, via Liverpool Centre. A train could be run from Southport to St Helens.

They need to:

Get the two long tunnels up and running.
The Canada Dock Branch Line up and running - if LFC build at Stanley Park.
Get the Outer Loop up and running with some stations as local hubs with local hopper bus connections.
Use the electrified Liverpool-Manchester Line for Merseyrail running east, to electrify all the network.
Get dual-voltage pick-up trains running through Mossley Hill - electric overhead lines are there.
Get a station into Liverpool John Lennon airport.
Introduce light-rail trains when renewal is up in a few years time - these can easily negotiate tight curves when extending into Liverpool and Wirral Waters, and easily over water spaces as London's Docklands Light Railway has proven.


Once all done then the Welsh may pay to electrify the Borderlands line and bring it onto Merseyrail.