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toyota
04-13-2009, 12:02 AM
Can any one explain what these caverns were for.

When we were kids,we used to play in the old railways tunnels.at walton on the hill...inside the first tunnel was a hole in the wall,like one of those refuges to hide in for rail workers,this one leeds into a large cavern,at the end of the first tunnel is another hole in the wall with a cavern,and then at the end of the third tunnel at kirkdale is another large tunnel which just comes to a dead end.
A lot of railway sites say this was going to be another set of tunnels to run along side the ones that are already there joining the little cavrns together as one long one, but for some reason they were not completed.

I dont think this was the case,why half dig a tunnel at kirkdale but not start at walton in the same way,a lot of people think that these caverns that apear in the walton tunnel were eventualy going to join up,for anyone who knows these caverns they will see it would be very hard to start digging a tunnel in this way.......why start digging a tunnel from a cavern running alongside a tunnel ,all the rock would have to be brought out into the main tunnel and then transported down it to the end ,seems the long way to go around,why not just start at one end like they did at kirkdale.

Going back to the first tunnel,the first cavern you come to is all brick lined as you pass into it,from what I can Remember there low down on the wall oppisite is a small arch and another tunnel leading off it must be about three foot high,( i havent been down here for 30years I have never been down this small tunnel but aparantly it lead to a shaft which is brick lines about 3ft by 3ft which lead straight up with hand grips and comes out of a manhole cove in the road or on the island outside queens drive baths.This area has had the road widened twice and the flyover runs over the top,what was this passage for what was on the site before the road was widened and the flyover built.

Very simlar caverns where built in the ramsgate check the site:

http://thanetunderground.blogspot.co...westcliff.html


Could these caverns at walton been used for the same reason.



Toyota

Waterways
04-13-2009, 02:25 AM
Can any one explain what these caverns were for.

When we were kids,we used to play in the old railways tunnels.at walton on the hill...inside the first tunnel was a hole in the wall,like one of those refuges to hide in for rail workers,this one leeds into a large cavern,at the end of the first tunnel is another hole in the wall with a cavern,and then at the end of the third tunnel at kirkdale is another large tunnel which just comes to a dead end.
A lot of railway sites say this was going to be another set of tunnels to run along side the ones that are already there joining the little cavrns together as one long one, but for some reason they were not completed.

I dont think this was the case,why half dig a tunnel at kirkdale but not start at walton in the same way,a lot of people think that these caverns that apear in the walton tunnel were eventualy going to join up,for anyone who knows these caverns they will see it would be very hard to start digging a tunnel in this way.......why start digging a tunnel from a cavern running alongside a tunnel ,all the rock would have to be brought out into the main tunnel and then transported down it to the end ,seems the long way to go around,why not just start at one end like they did at kirkdale.

Going back to the first tunnel,the first cavern you come to is all brick lined as you pass into it,from what I can Remember there low down on the wall oppisite is a small arch and another tunnel leading off it must be about three foot high,( i havent been down here for 30years I have never been down this small tunnel but aparantly it lead to a shaft which is brick lines about 3ft by 3ft which lead straight up with hand grips and comes out of a manhole cove in the road or on the island outside queens drive baths.This area has had the road widened twice and the flyover runs over the top,what was this passage for what was on the site before the road was widened and the flyover built.

Very simlar caverns where built in the ramsgate check the site:

http://thanetunderground.blogspot.com/2006/05/ramsgate-air-raid-tunnels-westcliff.html

Could these caverns at walton been used for the same reason.

Toyota

There is usually some tell tale sign that the caverns were used as air raid shelters. The tunnel was closed to trains in 1968 - about the time the Rice Lane flyover was started to be built. The passenger station was closed in 1918 as Spellow Lane station nearby in County Rd, was more useful - no integrated Merseyrail then.

When building tunnels they liked to sink shafts. These gave a pointer in the right direction and aided ventilation while cutting the tunnel.

The tunnel at Kirkdale could be used to merge the Canada Dock Branch line into from the cutting, to return the Merseyrail line to Liverpool, if the line is re-used for the LFC's stadium. The Canada Dock Branch line runs under Kirkdale and Bank Hall station in a cutting, not at grade level.

Liverpool is full of disused tunnels like this. There is one under the Linacre Gas works. There is another lengthy tunnel around Sandhills towards Liverpool which works it way to around Sandon Dock.

toyota
04-13-2009, 11:47 PM
Thanks for the reply,a old guy I was talking to told me they used the tunnels for air raid shelters but he could not recall the caverns.

any idea if there are any photos of the flyover being built.

Toyota

Doctor Frick
11-03-2009, 12:52 PM
Wow thats great, didnt know anything about these :)

Waterways
11-03-2009, 01:27 PM
Wow thats great, didnt know anything about these :)

The disused tunnel from Kirkdale to the Rice Lane flyover. The tunnel runs under the flyover junction as the lines were only lifted in 1975. Skirting Walton Hall Park the track beds of the old curves are largely still there. This connects onto the outer loop line trackbed that goes to West Derby/Broad Green/Childwall/Gatacre/Woolton/Hunts Cross/South Parkway. The dotted line to the left that runs to the the top off the picture is the existing Merseyrail Ormskirk/Kirkby line. It splits at the top, the right to Kirkby, the left top Ormskirk. The overground line from Kirkdale to Kirkby is 4 tracks wide to the point where the disused Outer Loop crosses just off picture at the top. Only two are now used.

The red is the disused tunnel from Kirkdale station (bottom left) to the Rice Lane Flyover.
http://i29.tinypic.com/2ij6u83.jpg
Courtesy of Multimap

The disused tunnel:
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/stations/w/walton_on_the_hill/


Look at:
Liverpool's Historic Rail Tunnels (http://www.liverpoolwiki.org/Liverpool%27s_Historic_Rail_Tunnels)

Doctor Frick
11-03-2009, 01:40 PM
Brilliant thanks for the info, good stuff. Iv been working on my website for history which contains info on the Wirral tunnels, it may be of some interest to you:

Bidston Tunnels
http://www.oldwirral.com/bidston_tunnels.html

Tranmere Tunnels
http://www.oldwirral.com/tranmere_tunnels.html

New Brighton Tunnels
http://www.oldwirral.com/newbrighton_smuggling.html

Waterways
11-03-2009, 01:54 PM
Brilliant thanks for the info, good stuff. Iv been working on my website for history which contains info on the Wirral tunnels, it may be of some interest to you:

Bidston Tunnels
http://www.oldwirral.com/bidston_tunnels.html

Tranmere Tunnels
http://www.oldwirral.com/tranmere_tunnels.html

New Brighton Tunnels
http://www.oldwirral.com/newbrighton_smuggling.html

Thanks.

The Tranmere tunnels stretched 6,500ft. Are the tunnels long enough to extend and widen putting a single track Merseyrail train down there?

It is worth surveying the Williamson Tunnels at Edge Hill and into the coper mine cavern at Copperas Hill with a view to putting a Merseyrail track down there. Most of the cutting would be already done.

BTW, a Tunnel from B'head Central to Woodchurch was planned and never cut. Provision was made for it at the station, that is why the trains do a sharp left leaving the station going south. The Tunnel was to be straight ahead. This tunnel would have filled a rail dead spot in B'head.