View Full Version : Britain's Got Problems
Anti Social behaviour, gun crime, taxes, expensive everything, offenders let out of jail early only to kill people, gangs, drugs etc etc and now this:
More than 1,000 foreign prisoners - including three murderers and nine rapists - have been "accidentally" released into the community. Charles Clarke has admitted the prisoners should have been considered for deportation at the end of their sentences. more (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1219816,00.html)
We have become a ruddy free for all!! :Colorz_Grey_PDT_24:
I'm moving to Spain :037:
Gnomie
04-25-2006, 05:01 PM
I'm moving to Spain :037:
me too:celb (23):
lets go KEV:celb (6):
YO LIVERPOOL FORO :cool:
It is getting worse here
I'm moving to Spain :037:
me too:celb (23):
lets go KEV:celb (6):
YO LIVERPOOL FORO :cool:
It is getting worse here
There's a great expat community there I've heard :PDT_Aliboronz_24:
bobbymac
04-25-2006, 05:42 PM
I believe that there is a substantial Islamic community in Spain, tho. I don't know what their outlook is.:celb (23):
Gnomie
04-25-2006, 05:50 PM
My friend Juan lives in Sevilla. maybe i should ask him to find me work
But i would fry in Sevilla:013:
victorialush
04-25-2006, 06:17 PM
My Aunt is out in Malaga... me and Brenda are off to toast ourselves there in 3 weeks :D
My Aunt is out in Malaga... me and Brenda are off to toast ourselves there in 3 weeks :D
My bags are packed, I'm comming with ya!!! :celb (23)::037:
Gnomie
04-25-2006, 06:46 PM
My bags are packed, I'm comming with ya!!! :celb (23)::037:
I asked Brenda last week. said yes if i can fit in a suitcase. hope they got big cases:PDT_Aliboronz_24:
victorialush
04-25-2006, 06:47 PM
My bags are packed, I'm comming with ya!!! :celb (23)::037:
Come on then lar..... £127 for the airfair and a handful of Euros for the villa.... I am gonna toast myself with several books by the poolside :037: I can't wait! :D
Seriously though, is it me or our major cities going nuts?
victorialush
04-25-2006, 06:48 PM
I asked Brenda last week. said yes if i can fit in a suitcase. hope they got big cases:PDT_Aliboronz_24:
Aaaaww, my suitcase is a little spotty one with wheels from the Avon, I am sure one of Kevs babies may fit in there... defo no Gnomie or Kev though.... us girls have to fit in the kitchen sink and stuff :D
Gnomie
04-25-2006, 06:50 PM
Well have a good one anyway:037: :wynar: :cool:
victorialush
04-25-2006, 06:51 PM
Seriously though, is it me or our major cities going nuts?
No Kev, they are all going nuts.... The whole world is... more bombs in Egypt.... :disgust:
victorialush
04-25-2006, 06:52 PM
Well have a good one anyway:037: :wynar: :cool:
Hopefully we will be able to flood the gallery with pictures of our redness tans :D
Anti Social behaviour, gun crime, taxes, expensive everything, offenders let out of jail early only to kill people, gangs, drugs etc etc and now this:
More than 1,000 foreign prisoners - including three murderers and nine rapists - have been "accidentally" released into the community. Charles Clarke has admitted the prisoners should have been considered for deportation at the end of their sentences. more (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1219816,00.html)
We have become a ruddy free!! :Colorz_Grey_PDT_24:
I'm moving to Spain :037:
Too many Brits overate Spain in my opinion.
Too many old ones there too.
I'd rather go to France again.:Colorz_Grey_PDT_16:
Cheap there, plus my surnames French.:PDT_Xtremez_28:
Its about time you placed your Francais heritage in the Cultures of Liverpool thread den :Colorz_Grey_PDT_16:
Viva Le France :unibrow: , or is Le, La, Lar? :unibrow:
Its about time you placed your Francais heritage in the Cultures of Liverpool thread den :Colorz_Grey_PDT_16:
Viva Le France :unibrow: , or is Le, La, Lar? :unibrow:
Its Bonsiour Lar
Paul D
04-26-2006, 04:52 PM
I've already had my holiday and I feel like I need another already,that's what I get for going in March I suppose.:(
I've already had my holiday and I feel like I need another already,that's what I get for going in March I suppose.:(
Were did u go mate?
Paul D
04-27-2006, 05:17 AM
I took the kids to disney world Florida,my oldest isn't six until June and its her third time there and my youngest has been twice already,I don't think they realise how lucky they are because I had to settle for Wales all the time so I'm making up for lost time.:)
Its Bonsiour Lar
Oooh you contential yer ;)
Hahah I don't know my French background that much anyway and I forgot most of the French I found easy to learn.:Colorz_Grey_PDT_16:
I knew how to read their directions though in Paris and did a bet with my dad and won.:celb (23):
Apparently Max Liverpool was home to French prisoners of war during the hundred years war... you have a rich heritage in your home time lar, or should that be le ? :unibrow:
You know those 1023 criminals will never be deported will they?
scouser9db
05-08-2006, 02:38 AM
I agree Kev, it is not just in the UK. I dont know what is the matter with people here,( USA) just this last few years the majority of people seem to be more rude, nasty and twice as ignorant. :disgust:
johnny
05-08-2006, 12:30 PM
Seriously though, is it me or our major cities going nuts?
I do believe they are! Whole areas of this country are reminicent of the 'Village of the ****ed,' with our little hoody friends ruling the roost.
Actually a better analogy would be that old film Bugsy Malone, except these days they don't just fire ice cream and cakes!
Britain has the worst record for anti-social behaviour in Europe.
According to a new report, Britons feel our booze culture and a lack of discipline are the key causes of an escalating problem.
I'm so proud :PDT_Xtremez_12:
Source (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13522797,00.html)
Apparently Max Liverpool was home to French prisoners of war during the hundred years war... you have a rich heritage in your home time lar, or should that be le ? :unibrow:
Neither Le or Lar.:Colorz_Grey_PDT_16:
A YOUNG boy who saved three swallow chicks from the clutches of yobs was punished for trespassing on school property.
Tony Jones grabbed the helpless chicks after they were knocked out of their nest in the grounds of Caernarfon's Ysgol Maesincla. A group of children were trying to dislodge the nest from the roof of the single-storey building.
The shocked 10-year-old saw them stamping on the tiny birds and several were thought to have been killed.
He fled home with the three chicks and is continuing to care for Lucky - the one chick which survived the ordeal just over a week ago.
The other two died of shock. He assumed staff at his school would praise his public-spirited actions.
But headmistress Elizabeth Roberts gave him the same punishment as the yobs suspected of carrying out the sickening attack.
Tony and the other children must stay indoors each break and lunchtimes writing out two A4 pages of lines stating in Welsh: "I must not trespass on school property."
His dad Paul last night told how his son came home from school earlier this week and burst into tears.
"He hasn't been allowed out at break time since the incident," he said..
"But if he hadn't trespassed all the nests would have been destroyed." "This has broken his heart. He just breaks down and cries.
"It has brought a lump to my throat to see him. I'm really disgusted."
Ysgol Maesincla head Mrs Elizabeth Roberts said the matter had been dealt with and refused to comment further.
A spokeswoman for North Wales Police said officers investigated the incident and spoke to a youngster.
No further action was taken or charges brought.
Sadness at osprey loss
BIRD conservation bosses yesterday said a rare osprey chick being raised in a North Wales nest watched by a hidden camera has died.
The cause of the baby bird's death was still unclear.
Now their hopes are pinned on two more chicks at the Glaslyn osprey project which are still fit and well.
The public can follow their progress via a nest-cam at Pont Croesor near Porthmadog. Yesterday a project worker said after flapping
vigorously in the middle of the nest, the chick collapsed on to its back, struggled for a few moments and then lay still. RSPB Cymru osprey officer Emyr Evans said: "It is sad to lose one of the chicks at this stage but it is the way nature works.
"We will continue to show nest-cam footage at the viewing site and explain the situation openly to our visitors."
More than 34,000 visitors have already visited the site since April.
Only in the UK do we punish the good whilst letting the bad get away with murder :rolleyes:
wallasey
07-16-2006, 12:18 AM
But you would all miss being in or close to our great city!
Please don't go! the Big Dig would never be the same without you :neutral:
Norm NZ
07-16-2006, 02:49 AM
Britain has the worst record for anti-social behaviour in Europe.
According to a new report, Britons feel our booze culture and a lack of discipline are the key causes of an escalating problem.
I'm so proud :PDT_Xtremez_12:
Source (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13522797,00.html) "You Said it Kev"! I watched a Sky TV program last night called 'Booze Britain' it showed young men! (more like idiot's!) binge boozing, and drinking each other urine and vomit!!! this was in Newquay. Some years ago, these people would be classed as insane! and institutionalised, Whats wrong with Britain today? I felt ashamed to admit that I was British! and pleased to be far enough away from it!
A YOUNG boy who saved three swallow chicks from the clutches of yobs was punished for trespassing on school property.
Tony Jones grabbed the helpless chicks after they were knocked out of their nest in the grounds of Caernarfon's Ysgol Maesincla. A group of children were trying to dislodge the nest from the roof of the single-storey building.
The shocked 10-year-old saw them stamping on the tiny birds and several were thought to have been killed.
He fled home with the three chicks and is continuing to care for Lucky - the one chick which survived the ordeal just over a week ago.
The other two died of shock. He assumed staff at his school would praise his public-spirited actions.
But headmistress Elizabeth Roberts gave him the same punishment as the yobs suspected of carrying out the sickening attack.
Tony and the other children must stay indoors each break and lunchtimes writing out two A4 pages of lines stating in Welsh: "I must not trespass on school property."
His dad Paul last night told how his son came home from school earlier this week and burst into tears.
"He hasn't been allowed out at break time since the incident," he said..
"But if he hadn't trespassed all the nests would have been destroyed." "This has broken his heart. He just breaks down and cries.
"It has brought a lump to my throat to see him. I'm really disgusted."
Ysgol Maesincla head Mrs Elizabeth Roberts said the matter had been dealt with and refused to comment further.
A spokeswoman for North Wales Police said officers investigated the incident and spoke to a youngster.
No further action was taken or charges brought.
Sadness at osprey loss
BIRD conservation bosses yesterday said a rare osprey chick being raised in a North Wales nest watched by a hidden camera has died.
The cause of the baby bird's death was still unclear.
Now their hopes are pinned on two more chicks at the Glaslyn osprey project which are still fit and well.
The public can follow their progress via a nest-cam at Pont Croesor near Porthmadog. Yesterday a project worker said after flapping
vigorously in the middle of the nest, the chick collapsed on to its back, struggled for a few moments and then lay still. RSPB Cymru osprey officer Emyr Evans said: "It is sad to lose one of the chicks at this stage but it is the way nature works.
"We will continue to show nest-cam footage at the viewing site and explain the situation openly to our visitors."
More than 34,000 visitors have already visited the site since April.
Only in the UK do we punish the good whilst letting the bad get away with murder :rolleyes:
Crazy school!
Maybe Spain ain't a bad idea, they have a new Middleweight champI could cheer on.:PDT_Aliboronz_24:
The Sunday Times reports on a poll claiming a fifth of Britons are considering leaving the UK because political parties have failed to deliver tax cuts.....
lindylou
08-26-2006, 11:14 PM
don't know about tax cuts, but I'd consider leaving Britain because of breakdown of our society, ie; as discussed in 'youth of today' & 'crime & punishment' threads.
The thought of leaving is often at the back of my mind.
Howie
08-26-2006, 11:22 PM
The Sunday Times reports on a poll claiming a fifth of Britons are considering leaving the UK because political parties have failed to deliver tax cuts.....
I'll come down and wave the selfish b*stards goodbye! What they should be arguing for is fairer taxes. :disgust:
PS. Kev, do you have a link? - I can't find the article on the Sunday Times web pages. :retard:
Howie
08-26-2006, 11:32 PM
don't know about tax cuts, but I'd consider leaving Britain because of breakdown of our society, ie; as discussed in 'youth of today' & 'crime & punishment' threads.
The thought of leaving is often at the back of my mind.
You've got to wonder why any of us want to stay in a country where a 4-yr old gets tied to a tree and has his head smashed in with a brick. :$ik:
"A four-year-old boy has suffered horrible injuries after being smashed over the head with a brick. Charlie Davis was found near his home in Hull in a pool of blood with a fractured skull and part of his ear hanging off. Police are investigating claims the boy was dragged 200 yards to the wasteland where the assault took place by a local youth who tied him to a tree before battering him." - ITN News
Brings back memories of the James Bulger killing. :sad:
I'd miss Britain too much to leave and live elsewhere.
I'll come down and wave the selfish b*stards goodbye! What they should be arguing for is fairer taxes. :disgust:
PS. Kev, do you have a link? - I can't find the article on the Sunday Times web pages. :retard:
http://static.sky.com/images/pictures/1441437.jpg
Article, click here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2330678,00.html)
Howie
08-27-2006, 09:01 AM
an overwhelming majority of voters do want to see cuts in income and inheritance tax
So they want to see the poor pay more tax and the rich pay less. I think I want to leave because these people disgust me. :disgust:
So they want to see the poor pay more tax and the rich pay less. I think I want to leave because these people disgust me. :disgust:
There thinking like Tories. :mad:
Waterways
08-27-2006, 09:32 PM
Britain has the worst record for anti-social behaviour in Europe.
According to a new report, Britons feel our booze culture and a lack of discipline are the key causes of an escalating problem.
I'm so proud :PDT_Xtremez_12:
Source (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13522797,00.html)
drinking has little to do with it. The older generation had a deeper booze culture. In the 1800s drunkeness was rampant.
Waterways
08-27-2006, 09:49 PM
So they want to see the poor pay more tax and the rich pay less. I think I want to leave because these people disgust me. :disgust:
The UK is one of the least taxed countries in the EU. Only Murdoch rags can come up with that.
A.D.Williams
08-28-2006, 12:30 PM
So they want to see the poor pay more tax and the rich pay less. I think I want to leave because these people disgust me. :disgust:
All very well saying make the 'rich' pay more, but what defines rich, Howie. As you should know taxing the 'rich' till the pips squeek only makes them take their money out of the country with the poorer sections of society making up the short fall.
In my opinion too many people are paying too much tax. Considering Income Tax was a temporary measure introduced in the late 1700's when we fought the French I think the joke has gone too far.
Where does all this tax money go by the way?
Where does all this tax money go by the way?
The NHS, The Armed Forces, The Police, The Civil Service, The Fire Brigade, The EU, Education, etc, etc ...
Did you think we were just wasting tax payers money on Burearocracy AD?
:Colorz_Grey_PDT_16:
lindylou
08-29-2006, 12:26 PM
I'd miss Britain too much to leave and live elsewhere.
I know for sure I would be homesick as hell. I love my own country and especially Liverpool. I wouldn't have been born anywhere else. I always teach my son about our great city and tell him it's a privilege to be born a Scouser -or Liverpudlian whatever you prefer.
.... but, I've got to the point now where I just want to live somewhere away from the anti-social stuff we've all been talking about, and to live somewhere half decent where people clean up after themselves and have pride in their surroundings.
I've truly had enough of the slovenly couldn't care less brigade.
When I go on holiday the clean streets and houses are as astonishing to me as the normal tourist attractions ! I find myself taking photos of places just to show how it can look to have a back alley with no binbags or fly tipping, or pavements with no chewie and filth. Like the picture I posted in the gallery of the phone box! WHY can't we live like that! Just CLEAN ! It's NORMAL to live like that.
It can be depressing to return back home.
I don't want anything posh, just somewhere reasonably clean, with civilised people.
Apart from the unpleasant environment, you have the added unpleasantness of yob rule (for want of a better description). Quality of life is now quite low for the normal law abiding population. Good people are rapidly becoming a minority in some areas.
Sadly there's not a lot to want to make you stay !
shytalk
08-29-2006, 01:36 PM
lindyloo,
Move to Coronation St., you never see any yobs there.:)
Seriously, I have seen the situation go from bad to worse, I only visit every couple of years so I probably notice the change more than you. I wouldn't go back to live in the U.K. for anything, not that I don't like it, just for the reasons you stated.
sweetpatooti
08-29-2006, 05:10 PM
I always tell my children "work had, get a good higher education (which I will have to pay for) and then take yourself off somewhere else in the world" - the States or Australia, Canada - doesn't matter which. Somewhere where there are prospects and a future. There is nothing in this country for our children - I've told them "don't worry, me and your Dad will come and stay with you". We could do the rounds for four months a piece and never have to come home - hee hee!
lindylou
08-29-2006, 08:22 PM
Sounds like I'm all doom and gloom ... but I have YET another tale of woe ;
Today I met up with some relatives who don't live in L'pool. We went on the 'Magical Mystery Tour' which was good. Done the Beatles trail and all that stuff. A nice time was had by all. We bid them farewell at Lime st station and headed for home.
We were on the 14c bus for literally minutes when bother with yobs erupted.
3 lads smoking; a young mum with a little girl asked them politely would they stop blowing smoke over the head of her 4 year old. Of course they didn't stop. The young mum was in her 20s - so even young people are getting fed up with this behaviour. She went down to the driver who then told the lads to put out their smokes ... well you can imagine the reply.
The lads bounced down to the front of the bus hurling abuse. The driver stopped the bus right in the middle of St John's lane and after more vile abuse the lads eventually got off. Not before spitting at the driver and then hurling a missile at the window (don't know what it was that they threw, but it banged very loudly on the window frightening people).
All this was in front of young children and pensioners. THERE IS NO RESPECT.
The vile swear words were disgusting - and to spit on the driver ! no one should have to put up with this during the course of their work. :disgust:
I was glad that my relatives hadn't wittnessed this.
sorry if I'm posting some negative stuff here, but it's what I actually see in my everyday life. :disgust:
Our fantastic city is blighted, and it's also in most other places around UK.
No wonder people are losing heart.
I know how you feel Lindylou :disgust:. But the fact is these are the way they are because they have been allowed to for many many years. This learnt behaviour comes from years of reinforcement by peers and poor role models without challenge from authority figures, parents and other adults.
All down to upbringing again. It's just very sad that it's gone too far and it appears there's nothing now any one can do about it.
I tell you what.. I prefer todays anti-social behaviour, to 19th century anti-social behaviour.
Where there is a will there is a way... ;)
lindylou
08-29-2006, 09:26 PM
you give me a grain of hope there FKoE :)
.... I like that - were's there's a will there's a way. :)
It's true. But how can we turn things around ?? It seems impossible.
I'm not asking you to answer that ! I'm just thinking aloud. :)
Hey Lindy, you with your cattle prod and me with me birch.. sheesh, we can change the whole world girl :D
lindylou
08-30-2006, 03:37 PM
:D :celb (6):
Urban
08-30-2006, 05:34 PM
I agree with most of the above something needs to be done.
What I have noticed though about anti social behaviour or crime is that when it happens in Liverpool the locals or visitors blame Liverpool.
Why is this? Because these things do happen in other cities across the UK but if a car gets broken into in London we dont blame London and all of the people who live there we blame the particular thief who committed the act.
It's a similar situation to a certain extent in other cities, we don't automatically blame the whole city.
Why is this?
I agree with most of the above something needs to be done.
What I have noticed though about anti social behaviour or crime is that when it happens in Liverpool the locals or visitors blame Liverpool.
Why is this? Because these things do happen in other cities across the UK but if a car gets broken into in London we dont blame London and all of the people who live there we blame the particular thief who committed the act.
It's a similar situation to a certain extent in other cities, we don't automatically blame the whole city.
Why is this?
Poor stereotypes, reinforced over a very long period of time.
Urban
08-30-2006, 05:45 PM
Poor stereotypes, reinforced over a very long period of time.
I agree mate, what I would like to add is that whilst any crime terrible as it is for the victim, there is no evidence to prove that the crime rate in Liverpool is higher than the national average.
I'm not disputing that anti social behaviour or violent crime is rising (or seems to be), but it's not higher here than any other British city.
Us Liverpudlians are the first to blame our own city when we here of crime, no wonder visitors do it.
I can think of no end of times that I have read letters to the Echo or Post going on 'I'll never visit Liverpool again because so and so, but these things happen elsewhere too.'
Us Liverpudlians are the first to blame our own city when we here of crime, no wonder visitors do it.
I have my thoughts on why that happens though. It's like a kind of 'self fulfilling prophercy', and many of our wonderfully passionate residents have lived through the 80's believing themselves the poor stereotypes that have been so heavily thrown at us from every direction.
Funny that Urban lad.... Us scousers tend to blame the theft on the thief. :rolleyes:
Howie
09-03-2006, 08:47 AM
All very well saying make the 'rich' pay more, but what defines rich, Howie. As you should know taxing the 'rich' till the pips squeek only makes them take their money out of the country with the poorer sections of society making up the short fall.
In my opinion too many people are paying too much tax. Considering Income Tax was a temporary measure introduced in the late 1700's when we fought the French I think the joke has gone too far.
Where does all this tax money go by the way?
Poorest 'worse off under Labour'
Sep 3 2006
Britain's poorest are paying a higher share of the total tax burden but getting a lower proportion of Government benefits than when Labour came to power, according to a study.
The worst-off fifth of households contributed 6.8% of the total tax take in 1996-7, but by 2004-5 that had risen to 6.9%, the Centre for Policy Studies found. Their share of benefits also dropped from 28.1% to 27.1% over the same period.
Overall, they would have been £531 a year better off if the systems had remained the way they were before Gordon Brown became Chancellor.
Researchers from the right-leaning think tank divided the population into five groups based on household income, and compared how they would have fared in the different years.
They found changes in tax and benefits had a negative financial impact on three of the classes. Apart from these on the lowest income, the second-poorest would have been £427 better off in 1996-7, and the richest would have gained £465.
The winners have apparently been middle income households - £613 wealthier in 2004-5 - and the second-richest - up by £847.
The study's lead author Charlie Elphicke said: "Almost five million households have an average pre-tax-and-benefit income of just £4,280.
"These households are now paying over £1,000 a year in income and council taxes. The impact of the Government's policies resembles those of the Sheriff of Nottingham, not Robin Hood."
Liberal Democrat economic spokesman Vince Cable said the report clearly highlighted "the source of sustained inequality in Britain".
"Labour have done nothing to close the huge gap between the richest and poorest in this country." Lib Dem tax proposals would lift two million of the lowest-paid people out of income tax altogether, he added.
Source: icLiverpool (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0300nationalnews/tm_objectid=17669955&method=full&siteid=50061&headline=poorest--worse-off-under-labour--name_page.html)
So apparently we (GB) are Europe's capital of Shop Lifting, have the most personal debt per person and the most anti social
Waterways
09-28-2006, 07:31 PM
So apparently we (GB) are Europe's capital of Shop Lifting,
We catch more because of more CCTV.
have the most personal debt per person
Because most of the debt in the UK is motgages., because we pay too much for houses.
and the most anti social
I would go along with that.
Sloyne
09-28-2006, 08:13 PM
Because most of the debt in the UK is motgages., because we pay too much or houses.I would agree with that statement. I don't think I could afford even a terraced house in the UK but, then again, I find the UK one of the most expensive places, for almost everything, on the planet. It is only Japan that is more expensive but at least in Japan you get the service you pay for. Britons still need to learn how to treat paying customers and not act as though they are doing the customer a favour by serving them.
Waterways
09-28-2006, 08:23 PM
I would agree with that statement.
80% of debt is mortgaes to pit a small cheap and nasty roof over your head. Go to the web site in tnhe signature and to the land article
I don't think I could afford even a terraced house in the UK but, then again, I find the UK one of the most expensive places, for almost everything, on the planet. It is only Japan that is more expensive but at least in Japan you get the service you pay for. Britons still needs to learn how to treat paying customers and not act as though they are doing the customer a favour by serving them.
I would go along with that.
The European Capital of Obeseness :celb (23): :037: We Rock!!
sweetpatooti
10-10-2006, 08:14 PM
Lord help us if we ever get invaded - we'lll never be able to defend ourselves. We won't be able to get off the couch quick enough...don't get me wrong - I'm a bit of a salad-dodger meself - but even young kids are getting fatter and fatter - and it can't be just down to junk food. We - as a nation - (big speech coming up) need to get off our botties and walk a bit more, eat a few less pies, make our nation the great, lean machine it once was!:celb (23):
I'm a bit of a salad-dodger meself
hahaha,, yer my kinda o girl pootie :D
Britons are the most spied on people anywhere on the globe.
continues (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13550044,00.html)....
and another one:
Britain's youths are some of the worst behaved in
Europe, research by a leading think-tank suggests.
continues (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-13550050,00.html)....
chezza
12-15-2006, 08:52 PM
think i would go to ireland....there's no one there lol
think i would go to ireland....there's no one there lol
I can't believe how patriotic the Irish are, yet they all leave and in New York the Plastic Paddys think their Irish when they were born in New York.
Funny to argue with on the internet though lol, when it comes to passports. Or calling what they call Derry Londonderry. :evil:
shytalk
12-16-2006, 06:40 PM
I can't believe how patriotic the Irish are, yet they all leave and in New York the Plastic Paddys think their Irish when they were born in New York.
Funny to argue with on the internet though lol, when it comes to passports. Or calling what they call Derry Londonderry. :evil:
Max, it's not just the Irish Americans, it's lots of Americans, I have no idea why they deny being American, but lots of them will tell you they are polish, german, etc., when they have never even been there. Must be some kind of insecure feeling they have.
Millions of them claim to be descendants of the people who came on the Mayflower too, so many they had me thinking the Mayflower must be a bridge, no boat could hold that many!
shytalk
12-16-2006, 06:45 PM
The year is 1907.....but the speaker knew what he was talking about
Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907.
"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907
*So the biggest news of the day? WAGS, WAGS and more WAGS! You would have thought they were royalty the exposure these weddings have had.
*Another news (http://news.sky.com/skynews/picture_gallery/0,,30100-1270643,00.html) story? 2/3's of our teen girls want to become glamor models because of the quick route to riches, celebrity and all its rewards. Girls who have no problem wanting to look like a Barbie Doll as long as they make money and try and catch the footballer boyfriend.
I reckon the same applies to young lads who would rather be gangsters than anything else.
I'm not that old am I? :eek:
Honestly, madness the lot of it.
*So the biggest news of the day? WAGS, WAGS and more WAGS! You would have thought they were royalty the exposure these weddings have had.
*Another news (http://news.sky.com/skynews/picture_gallery/0,,30100-1270643,00.html) story? 2/3's of our teen girls want to become glamor models because of the quick route to riches, celebrity and all its rewards. Girls who have no problem wanting to look like a Barbie Doll as long as they make money and try and catch the footballer boyfriend.
I reckon the same applies to young lads who would rather be gangsters than anything else.
I'm not that old am I? :eek:
Honestly, madness the lot of it.
I think its a sad fact that if you were to ask many young lads in Toxteth who they aspire to be its either Robbie Fowler or Curtis Warren.
I reckon the same applies to young lads who would rather be gangsters than anything else.
Well I do have urges to shout YEAH and do some drive by homie.:PDT_Aliboronz_24:
Also wear some gang colours too.
Too much GTA San Andreas.
Well I do have urges to shout YEAH and do some drive by homie.:PDT_Aliboronz_24:
Also wear some gang colours too.
Too much GTA San Andreas.
Is right Max, as an enthusiastic GTA player myself and an adult, I'm aware of the potentially harmful scenarios that are played out in that game mate, especially kids in their primary years sadly.
Our Uk kids indulging in American Ghetto is/ has been extremely damaging. We have 'created' American Hip Hop themed ghettos on our very own streets.
Fair play to Mr Warren though - during the 80's it was bad. This current crop of wannabes live quite reasonable lives anyway which can't be blamed on living in poverty/ deprivation etc...
The blame lies with the media.
I meant myself when playing GTA really.
Kids at a certain age are old enough to know the difference and I don't think the games/Hip hop should be blamed enough they might Influence teens/kids to copy them.
That said though GROVE IS BAAACK!
As an enthusiastic GTA player you know that line.
Shapers
06-16-2007, 09:40 PM
Trouble is, there is no punishment. Unless someone has been killed, punishments for other crimes don't even warrant a prison sentence, unless your a pensioner unable to pay council tax.
I have been on a bus and teenage scum were causing murder. When the driver stopped, the darlings exact words were 'i wanna get arrested, its my birthday, only going to get a £80 fine the most'. So why should they worry about being part of a gang, when the chances of being caught is very low and if they do they will only get a caution anyway and a badge of homour if they get a ASBO to impress the other rats. The do gooding liberals will make excuses for them as well.
And the girls, well i know a few whos ambition is to be a WAG, dating a footballer. So they can sit in salons all day polishing there nails. So when they do bag one and theWAG gets to 40 and the retired celeb husband runs off with a younger model, they will have bugger all to fall back on. Serve the lazy shallow cows right.
*Floods
Why when there have been floods do us Brits end up in our cars slap bang in the middle of 6ft of water? What do they do? Does it not occur to them to not drive into it in the first place?
Did any one see the pic of the lads standing in the floods up to their knees still at the bus stop? Made me laugh. 'Only in the UK'.
billo
06-17-2007, 12:58 PM
*Floods
Why when there have been floods do us Brits end up in our cars slap bang in the middle of 6ft of water? What do they do? Does it not occur to them to not drive into it in the first place?
Did any one see the pic of the lads standing in the floods up to their knees still at the bus stop? Made me laugh. 'Only in the UK'.
did you notice that a lot of the places under water were called ''Riverside Road'' or ''Water Street'' or even ''Streamford''? So why are they suprised???
Did any one see the pic of the lads standing in the floods up to their knees still at the bus stop? Made me laugh. 'Only in the UK'.
Wasn't it that spirit though that got Britain through the war? :unibrow:
See, this is where our country is all wrong:
Prisoners released early from prison are to receive a cash payout of up to £172 to compensate them for loss of bed and board. Some 25,500 prisoners are expected to be released up to 18 days early to ease the prisons overcrowding crisis. continues (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1271913,00.html)....
:PDT_Xtremez_42:
lottie
03-14-2008, 04:14 PM
9 year old Shannon Matthews found, approx 1 mile from her home. Concealed in a bed in a flat. 39 year old man arrested. Thank god she's safe.
quincyg
03-14-2008, 04:40 PM
hear hear to that.
cockney-fella
03-14-2008, 06:49 PM
Yeah its makes a nice change to have a happy(ish) ending to an incident like this. Just hope it does'nt affect the kid too much in later life
lindylou
03-14-2008, 09:13 PM
Thank God she's been found alive. Wonder what conditions she's been kept in ? Poor kid. I hope she will not be too traumatised, she could have after affects in later life :(
jimmy
03-15-2008, 03:32 AM
Shannon safe after rescue drama22:00, Mar 14 2008
Schoolgirl Shannon Matthews is safe after a dramatic police rescue ended her 24-day abduction ordeal.
Police smashed their way into a flat about a mile from the nine-year-old's home in Dewsbury, West Yorkshire, and found her hidden in the base of a bed.
Neighbours said they saw the youngster being carried out of the house and a man being dragged away by officers.
A 39-year-old man, reported to be a member of her extended family, was under arrest, suspected of her abduction.
Police were beginning to piece together what happened to the "timid" youngster since she disappeared following a school swimming trip on February 19.
It is understood that Shannon has yet to be reunited with her mother, Karen Matthews, who was said to be "in shock" after her daughter was found alive and well.
Shannon has been made the subject of an Emergency Police Protection Order.
A West Yorkshire Police spokesman said: "As part of our ongoing inquiries, and following medical checks, West Yorkshire Police will begin the process of interviewing Shannon.
"This may be a long process. Our main focus continues to be Shannon's welfare. We have therefore taken the decision that, for now, it is in Shannon's best interests that she be made the subject of an Emergency Police Protection Order.
"This will remain in place until we have had time to establish the full facts of what happened in the time since her disappearance."
I've found the whole disappearance and events very odd. The poor girl seems to have been through some trauma at home before this incident.
sweetcheeks
03-15-2008, 06:19 PM
I've found the whole disappearance and events very odd. The poor girl seems to have been through some trauma at home before this incident.
I agree Kev I am so glad she has been found but I would bet my last penny somebody within the family knew more about this than has been said.
Well done to the Police it must be nice for them to have a happy ending.
I'm convinced there's a lot more to this than meets the eye, when she got rescued she didnt seem traumatised by it and the fact that nobody is in a hurry to return her to her parents home speaks volumes.
quincyg
03-16-2008, 07:50 PM
I'm convinced there's a lot more to this than meets the eye, when she got rescued she didnt seem traumatised by it and the fact that nobody is in a hurry to return her to her parents home speaks volumes.
well exactly, and some reports are suggesting it's a hoax by the grown ups after seeing how much money the McCanns appeal brought in.
if that's the case then it's diabolical. either way I hope Shannon goes to her father, which is what she seemed to want in the first place. Poor kid.
well exactly, and some reports are suggesting it's a hoax by the grown ups after seeing how much money the McCanns appeal brought in.
if that's the case then it's diabolical. either way I hope Shannon goes to her father, which is what she seemed to want in the first place. Poor kid.
The family were also quick to **** off the media and the mccanns, the usual posh versus poor route....
If it is all as bad as it seems then this 'intervention' in Shannons life is probably the only escape this child has from this existence. Otherwise I'm sure she would have grown up living the life her mother seems to have done.
lottie
03-17-2008, 08:02 AM
As i said before, i am glad she is safe and alive, but i agree with you all that something isn't right here. It should all come out soon, hopefully.
Here's another one - The predatory paedophile described as a persistent threat to young boys who is allowed back into the country, whilst a Gurkha hero wounded while fighting in the Falklands War, can't get a proper pension to fund medical treatment in Nepal – or even NHS care he deserves for the horrendous injuries that nearly killed him.
Here's another one: Being in jail is 'just like a holiday camp' prisoner tells Jack Straw (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=540788&in_page_id=1770)
:PDT_Xtremez_42:
ChrisGeorge
03-21-2008, 09:32 AM
Posted in another thread. Thought it might fit here as well.
Britain after Tony Blair? :PDT_Xtremez_12:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1010/870634782_0077380e77.jpg
Bin taxes arrive... with a £40 charge for families ON TOP of their council tax bill (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=543148&in_page_id=1770&ct=5)
:PDT_Xtremez_12:
Mother who stood up to foul-mouthed teens finds SHE is the one thrown in the cells by police (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=544012&in_page_id=1770&ct=5)
Have-a-go hero has home pelted by thugs after police take four hours to answer 999 call (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=544608&in_page_id=1770)
Mother who stood up to foul-mouthed teens finds SHE is the one thrown in the cells by police (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=544012&in_page_id=1770&ct=5)
Have-a-go hero has home pelted by thugs after police take four hours to answer 999 call (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=544608&in_page_id=1770)
The trouble is scum like this make other peoples lives a misery but know their rights to a tee. They know exactly what to say in a call to police or in a statement to make sure anyway who speaks out against them gets arrested.
Regarding that mother.
How come such a flimsy case can come before the courts when the CPS often refuse more worthy causes and the police (as in the case of the Rhys Jones murder have to *****foot around making sure first before even approaching the CPS)
What a waste of tax payers money. What should happen here to avoid other bogus attempts at turning the tables on decent people by scum is that the police now arrest the original complainant for wasting police and court time.
The CPS also want sorting out for this episode too.
Another thing for NOT SO GREAT Britain is Bernard Hogan Howe, our police chief says that the government say the 5 year minimum sentence for handling a gun is being ignored by dickhead judges who give a lot less, the average being 3 years and 10 months or something, not sure without checking? Then some tit who is high up says it's ok because some are higher and some are lower - errr, if the average is only 3 years and 10 months, it means there must be some that are even lower than this figure - never mind 5 years.
What I find concerning is how now our country has ben considered Developed for so long, the powers that be seem intent on wrecking all this progress in favour of the UK being this fake, tollerant, embracing, all inclusive, sensitive etc, etc country. In fact we have now become so politically correct, weak and without firm guidance and nothing to be proud of, the only thing we can cling to are the steps made by significant people from our past.
What we now have are a society of people without any core values, there fore lacking any guidance and goals in life. Those of us that do will find ourselves loosing out at the end of the day whether that be through higher taxes, having yourself attacked by a gang of teens [just because they can], having to act diplomatically without trying to offend anyone etc......
People have lost the will/ desire to protest havn't they?
Something will 'give' sooner or later.
A story in the echo last night was how Liverpool gangs were trying to infiltrate the Isle of Man with drugs. They've been warned of long sentences, they won't know what's hit them if they think they'll get away with a slapped wrist over there - unless they've gone soft as well.
Remember that Victorian values speech by - was it Blair pfft.
We need to take a good look at what worked back then and re-implement some of those things. Sure, progress has been made on a lot of things but common courtesy and respect isn't one of them.
scousejoan
03-26-2008, 12:30 PM
Seriously though, is it me or our major cities going nuts?Hiya Kev, no your not going nuts lad,It's the Spineless Government and all the do gooder's who
have f...., up every thing,there's so many rules, and too many people doing the job, that one department thinks another department is doing that job, etc,etc. The more people there is,the more likely things will go haywire, theres no communication. I for one am sick of trying to watch my P's and Q's, so as not to offend anybody.this government is digging a big hole, and how big is it going to get before they slam the Door shut.:snf (41):
Waterways
03-26-2008, 01:02 PM
Regarding that mother.
How come such a flimsy case can come before the courts when the CPS often refuse more worthy causes
The police have a points system. They will nick anyone to run the points up. The easier the nick the more points.
When speaking policemen. Just be quiet. If they think they can get you, and you are trying help, they will get you.
The police have to present the case to the CPS who decide if a case is forthcoming. This is to prevent willy nilly arrests and often why cautions are now issued or spot fines etc etc. If an assualt case like this, which is not treated as minor got as far as court costing the taxpayers money, the CPS should be held to account. The police have to act on a person making an accusation, then witnesses and other back up evidence like hospital treatment would be sought.
Waterways
03-26-2008, 01:07 PM
Hiya Kev, no your not going nuts lad,It's the Spineless Government
The government is not spineless - the government has been accused of being too hard. It passed all sorts of anti-social laws, even 5 years for handling a gun. If the police and courts don't use the laws then that is a different matter.
What we need now is proper community policing and social lessons for children at schools......and the authorities to use the laws properly.
Waterways
03-26-2008, 01:09 PM
A story in the echo last night was how Liverpool gangs were trying to infiltrate the Isle of Man with drugs. They've been warned of long sentences, they won't know what's hit them if they think they'll get away with a slapped wrist over there - unless they've gone soft as well.
Liverpool drug gangs took over Western Europe. Infiltrating the Isle of Man is no big thing for them.
We need to take a good look at what worked back then and re-implement some of those things. Sure, progress has been made on a lot of things but common courtesy and respect isn't one of them.
That mainly comes from the home.
Waterways
03-26-2008, 01:12 PM
What we now have are a society of people without any core values, there fore lacking any guidance and goals in life.
The kids are now the children of the Thatcher Children - she said me, me, me, "there is no such thing as society", the idiot said. Respect for society dropped from that point on. A whole generation or two will take some turning around.
Western Europe - governed by spineless beauracrats in Brussels. Isn't the IOM independant?
Respect should be and was taught at home in your and my day - school too. What's happened then?
As has been said, kids now know their rights, were we soft or didn't we have any? You wouldn't give cheek around your locality as everyone knew your mam and dad, older kids kept you in some sort of check too - too many anonymous strangers lurking now - not even from the area.
What about this then for a load of balls. Why should a single complaint be given the time of day?
http://entertainment.aol.co.uk/tea-advert-cleared-of-racism-claim/article/20080326014909990003
Evil, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. It's ok to complain about something that upsets YOU but you shouldn't consider you're doing the deed on behalf of others who themselves may see no harm in it.
Here's how time magazine see us:
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/03_04/timeL2803_468x624.jpg (http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/03_04/timeL2803_468x624.jpg)
British youth are violent, drunken and out of control, a leading American magazine concludes today.
The front cover of renowned publication Time Magazine depicts a young man in a "hoodie" with mugshots of others across a Union Jack.
Its headline reads: "Unhappy, Unloved and Out of Control - An epidemic of violence, crime and drunkenness has made Britain scared of its young."
It also pours scorn upon the parenting abilities of the British, claiming they do not spend enough time with their children and cannot cope.
The magazine criticises our class-riven society, education system and binge-drinking culture.
The weekly magazine, which goes on sale across the world today, cites a survey by the children's charity TS Rebel which found last year that more than a fifth of Britons avoided going out at night rather than risk encountering groups of intimidating youths.
A 3,200 word article states: "It's easy to see why.
"The boys and girls who casually pick fights, have sex and keep the emergency services fully occupied are often fuelled by cheap booze."
It says that British youngsters drink far more than their European counterparts, are more frequently involved in violence and are more likely to try drugs, adding that English girls are the most sexually active in Europe.
"Small wonder then, that a 2007 Unicef study of child well-being in 21 industrialised countries placed Britain firmly at the bottom of the table," the article states.
The magazine, which has a circulation of four million, has put the story on its international front cover. It will also feature the article in its US editions, providing further embarrassment to the Government.
Time also says that Labour's ambitious target of halving child poverty by 2010, set by Tony Blair, is unlikely to be achieved.
It states: "The British have a long propensity to recoil in horror from their children - whether they be Teddy boys in the 1950s, mods and rockers in the Sixties, skinheads in the Seventies or just a bunch of boisterous teens making a lot of noise but little real mischief.
"But it is also true that for what Bob Reitemeier, chief executive of the Children's Society, call a 'significant minority' of British children, unhappiness - and the criminality, excessive drinking and drug-taking and promiscuity that is its expression - really have created a crisis.
"All over the world, teenagers give their parents headaches.
"Why are the migraines induced by British kids felt across a whole society?
"Part of the reason may be that parents aren't always around to help socialise their children - or even just to show them affection.
"Compared to other cultures, British kids are less integrated into the adult world and spend more time with their peers.
"Add to the mix a class structure and an education system that rewards the advantaged, and some children are bound to be left in the cold."
The article expresses particular concern at Britain's binge-drinking culture.
"Alcohol Concern noted that one in three British men and one in five women drink double the amount considered safe at least once a week," it says, citing pictures of Princes William and Harry leaving nightclubs.
Source (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=547930&in_page_id=1770)
How very noble of a country that has been shooting each other to bits since time imemorial.
I'd rather look to the likes of France or Greece who are known to have close tight knit and family orientated communities - hey, rather like Britain just a few decades ago.
lindylou
03-29-2008, 02:29 PM
That's true Ged. People I know who live in Spain, tell me that everyday life there is a bit like how it used to be in UK 30 years ago.
This is going a bit off topic .. but they commented on how commercialism in UK has made Christmas like a rat race ( which we well know - - and Easter is going the same way) - and they say that Christmas in Spain is like how it used to be in Britain during the 1970s. people in their own homes, very family orientated, with some good food and some modest gifts - not all spending and boozing like here.
London 2008 and Harriet Harman wears a stab-proof vest ... to tour her own constituency!
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/04_01/harmanDM3103_468x529.jpg
How sad
more (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=552428&in_page_id=1770)
quincyg
04-01-2008, 01:10 PM
London 2008 and Harriet Harman wears a stab-proof vest ... to tour her own constituency!
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/04_01/harmanDM3103_468x529.jpg
How sad
more (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=552428&in_page_id=1770)
exactly...it just doesn't go with that top!
fashion disaster...don't look http://www.cybersalt.org/cl_images/1zzzzxa/cats/catdogshock.jpg
Ha ha - very sharp - ooops :)
Our wonderful society:
Bullet-Proof Hoodies To Hit The Streets
Updated:07:24, Friday April 04, 2008
A new bullet-proof hoodie to protect against street violence is due to go on sale later this month.
more (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30400-1311754,00.html)
Words escape me :PDT_Xtremez_12::disgust:
Reporting on GMTV now that her mother has been arrested on suspicion of perverting the course of justice, while the girl still awaits a return home. There's still a lot more to be unravelled in this one.
What a dysfunctional family. I watched a documentary the other week that followed the family whilst she was missing right up to the date of her being found. They never ever seemed that put out and all that time, her step dad knew the police had taken his pc's away and that he had all that child porn on it (allegedly) and they weren't very forthcoming of the press attention which surely you would be if you're requesting their help on finding her. My thoughts are that they were in on it, possibly through seeing the money generated by the McCanns appeal when looking for Madelaine. I don't even think the girl knew she was kidnapped and that people were looking for her, her step-dad's cousin would be known to her so he's just swanned her off to his flat to stay for a few weeks telling her possibly that her mum needs a break etc, the person below her her running around upstairs, another neighbour claimed he saw the abductee going out to do the shopping so she must have been left alone and would be able to escape or raise the alarm if need be - very fishy - me smells a rat.
lottie
04-07-2008, 09:47 AM
My husband and i said they saw the money raised for Madeline's fund gave them the idea that they could get some money raised, then miraculously Shannon would be found. If that is the case it has backfired dramatically and they deserve everything thrown at them. If we are wrong then lets hope its sorted quickly.
PhilipG
04-07-2008, 09:50 AM
I agree, completely, Ged.
Disfunctional isn't a strong enough word.
The Royal family is disfunctional.
What is it?
5 children by 7 men, or 7 children by 5 men?
I was immediately suspicious when I learned of the TV programme, and suspect that was the main reason behind it all.
I said on another thread that you shouldn't judge people on appearances, but I did notice that most of the people on that programme just came across as ugly, and not just on the exterior.
That massive street piss up with cheap cans of lager and an impromtu disco too - how uncouth. I know you can't judge a whole town by its 'strange inhabitants' but Dewsbury must be hiding under the covers right now. :ninja:
lindylou
04-07-2008, 10:11 AM
A comment someone made to me - that they look like something from tv series 'Shameless'
molly
04-07-2008, 10:33 AM
This whole situation stinks and to think that these "so called adults" are bringing up kids. It is just sickening, to think what do these kids have to deal with and what do they see and hear.
on the 2pm news that the mother has been arrested for attempting to pervert the course of jutice - pervert being the operative word here I think. It appears she did know more about the whereabouts of Shannon than she was ever letting on.
The bloke who 'abducted' her (that word used loosly) had tried to slit his wrists but even got that wrong apparently.
They're already a lot of irks on the dole being paid for by the taxpayer and now all this hullabaloo. :disgust:
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/04_02/matthewsDM0604_228x411.jpg
A face of despair: Karen Matthews during the search for her daughter
The mother of Shannon Matthews knew where her daughter was all along, it has been claimed.
Karen Matthews may even have invented the "abduction" after watching an episode of TV drama Shameless.
more (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=557960&in_page_id=1770&ct=5)
sweetcheeks
04-08-2008, 08:56 AM
This has got to be one of the saddest story's of this year, you think it can't get any worse but it does. Those poor poor children they don't deserve this, some people just shouldn't be allowed to have children without a great deal of extra education.
molly
04-08-2008, 09:48 AM
If this is all true, what a sad sad world we live in that parents would become so low to do this to their kids, family etc.
Just read that piece. I wouldn't call this a sad case at all - no-one was missing, no one was hurting. I would call it contrived and bloody well shameful though. On that documentary I mentioned earlier, they ****ged off the McCanns something ruthlessly and now it's emerged that several attempts were made to get money from the Madelaine fund so i'm not having it that her bottle went about leaving her boyfriends and then it escalated out of control, this was all about getting that money, if not, why still go ahead and do that bit? If the police hadn't found her, how long would the sham have gone on - they were so brazen about it.
Cadfael
04-08-2008, 10:23 AM
Well, if Shannon's mum goes down for it, I'm sure she'll get her rewards in prison from the other female members who haven't seen their kids for years...
It makes u sick Ged, yet sadly this sort of behaviour isn't isolated.
Well, if Shannon's mum goes down for it, I'm sure she'll get her rewards in prison from the other female members who haven't seen their kids for years...
I doubt it Cad, they're all have similar behaviour traits. They'll probably have a good laugh.
sweetcheeks
04-08-2008, 11:39 AM
Just read that piece. I wouldn't call this a sad case at all - no-one was missing, no one was hurting. I would call it contrived and bloody well shameful though. On that documentary I mentioned earlier, they ****ged off the McCanns something ruthlessly and now it's emerged that several attempts were made to get money from the Madelaine fund so i'm not having it that her bottle went about leaving her boyfriends and then it escalated out of control, this was all about getting that money, if not, why still go ahead and do that bit? If the police hadn't found her, how long would the sham have gone on - they were so brazen about it.
I mean its sad that children have been used as pawns in this story Ged, no matter what that is no way to use your children, it appears now the mother has admitted she knew all along where Shannon was.
Aye, and cost the taxpayer 5 million into the bargain by the look of it but what will happen - community service? - see this for something far more serious:
http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/tm_headline=100-hours-community-service-for-hit-run-driver%26method=full%26objectid=20731023%26siteid= 50061-name_page.html
.
lottie
04-08-2008, 01:56 PM
Whats the world coming to eh :disgust:
snappel
04-08-2008, 03:55 PM
What's all this got to do with Liverpool anyway?
Sometimes people might want to talk about something none Liverpool that perhaps should be on a none Liverpool thread but one doesn't seem to exist.
lottie
04-08-2008, 11:12 PM
I think you will find not everything on here is actually about Liverpool. I know its a Liverpool forum but sometimes people have to actually discuss other things outside Liverpool. I like to talk about other things as well. There are threads on here about loads of stuff. There is a big, big world out there.
Howie
04-08-2008, 11:56 PM
Sometimes people might want to talk about something none Liverpool that perhaps should be on a none Liverpool thread but one doesn't seem to exist.
Moved thread to Chit-Chat (http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=12) Off topic, miscellaneous chit-chat without a Liverpool and Merseyside focus.
Howie
04-09-2008, 12:14 AM
Shannon mother charged with neglect
Apr 8 2008
The mother of Shannon Matthews has been charged by police in connection with the alleged abduction of her daughter.
Karen Matthews, 32, will appear before magistrates in Dewsbury charged with perverting the course of justice and child neglect.
Her nine-year-old daughter disappeared from Dewsbury and was discovered in the base of a bed at an address just one mile from her home after a 24-day police search.
Matthews was arrested on Sunday evening and was questioned by detectives at Wakefield police station. She is the latest family member to be arrested in connection with her daughter's disappearance.
Michael Donovan, of Lidgate Gardens, Batley Carr, was arrested on March 14, after Shannon was found in his flat following her disappearance on February 19.
He was later charged with Shannon's kidnap and false imprisonment and is remanded in custody awaiting trial at Leeds Crown Court on November 11.
The 39-year-old, formerly known as Paul Drake, is the uncle of Matthews' partner Craig Meehan. Meehan, 22, has been charged with 11 counts of possessing indecent images of children.
Last week, Meehan's sister, Amanda Hyett, 25, who lives next door to Shannon's mother in Moorside Road, Dewsbury Moor, and his mother, Alice Meehan, 49, were both arrested in connection with the alleged abduction.
Mrs Hyett was questioned on suspicion of assisting an offender and Mrs Meehan on suspicion of attempting to pervert the course of justice.
The pair were released on bail pending further inquiries.
Source: Liverpool Echo (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/uk-world-news/2008/04/08/shannon-mother-charged-with-neglect-100252-20738069/)
snappel
04-09-2008, 09:31 AM
I think you will find not everything on here is actually about Liverpool. I know its a Liverpool forum but sometimes people have to actually discuss other things outside Liverpool. I like to talk about other things as well. There are threads on here about loads of stuff. There is a big, big world out there.
This thread was originally posted in the 'Liverpool News' subforum. A bit misleading, if you ask me. Since my comment, and I'm hoping, before yours, it was moved to the 'Chit Chat' section.
lottie
04-09-2008, 12:08 PM
Hey, just giving an opinion. It has been moved and i didn't know it had been posted in Liverpool News. If i offended anyone i appologise, but we are all entiltled to an opinion,even if it is in the wrong place.
snappel
04-09-2008, 01:29 PM
It's just, you almost accuse me of forgetting there's a world outside Liverpool (er, yeah, fat chance...) when it was you who posted the thread in a Liverpool news subforum. Whatever, it's not really important anymore.
The whole 'case' stinks of a scam. Just look at them all, they're all a bit 'special'. I daresay some unpleasant 'home truths' are going to emerge in the various trials...
She's been remanded into custardy - what a sticky mess :)
To a shout of 'Yesss' from the public gallery.
lottie
04-09-2008, 02:27 PM
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee227/ccaller/1182929970e5.gif
Sorry if thats how you felt. Hope this is the end of this eh :)
Shannon's mother Karen ill go on trial 'alongside' the alleged kidnapper, which indicates police believe she knew all along where Shannon was.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/7350062.stm
Meanwhile, this man has come forward and actually admitted to having had a relationship with her.
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/1304_shannon.shtml
This is not so much a family tree as a genealogical bramble. The traditional neat branches, shaped by the age-old certainties of birth, death and the institution of marriage, have grown wild.
What you see here is a tragic map of social breakdown: families who once stood on their own feet being replaced by single parenthood, multiple partners, reliance on State benefits and, perhaps inevitably, children being looked after by the local authority.
Scroll down for more...
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/04_03/famtreeDM1604_468x352.jpg (http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/04_03/famtreeDM1604_800x602.jpg)Family tree: A map of social breakdown
Recently, one young, female member has even been jailed for life for the murder of a pensioner.
This is the extended family of nine-year-old Shannon Matthews, the West Yorkshire schoolgirl who disappeared for 24 days, sparking one of Britain's biggest missing person hunts.
It ended last month when she was found in the nearby home of her stepfather's uncle, Mike Donovan (aka Paul Drake), who was subsequently charged with her kidnap and imprisonment. But the police dragnet also caught other alleged offenders among Shannon's relations.
Her 22-year-old stepfather, Craig Meehan, has been charged with 11 counts of possessing child pornography on his computer.
Meehan's sister, Amanda Hyett, was arrested and bailed on suspicion of assisting an offender. Another sister, Caroline Meehan, 29, and mother, Alice Drake, 49, were also arrested and questioned on suspicion of attempting to pervert the course of justice.
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/03_01/ShannonNewPA_228x326.jpg
But the most astonishing development came last week when Karen Matthews, Shannon's 32-year-old mother, was herself arrested and charged with perverting the course of justice and child neglect.
For many observers, the twists and turns seemed incredible.
Or at least more like the plot of the fictional Channel Four comedy drama about the underclass, Shameless (which, incidentally, is involved in the criminal investigation after it emerged that police officers are examining alleged similarities between Shannon's disappearance and a storyline from the series shown the month before she vanished).
So, who are this large and apparently dysfunctional clan, living on or near the Moorside estate in Dewsbury, and what does their family tree tell us about the way Britain has changed?
When Shannon first disappeared, West Yorkshire Police began to piece together its own version of the girl's family tree.
Such was the size and complexity that it had not been completed by the time she was found, more than three weeks later.
The job is worth the effort, for purely sociological reasons.
Our own researches have identified scores of her relations, living and dead, going back five generations to the thriving Dewsbury of the 19th century.
The yeoman surnames - Drake, Bell, Lamb, Asquith, Shepherd - suggest they could be traced back, somewhere in England at least, for several centuries before that.
What emerges is a fascinating, if bleak, pattern of gradual social disintegration. It surely resonates with what is happening in many other Northern, white, lower working-class communities. An epoch has passed.
Karen Matthews is a striking figurehead for this generation.
She has never been in regular work yet receives £400 a week benefits, having had seven children by five different men.
Scroll down for more...
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/04_02/ShanADAMS0604_468x376.jpg
Her forbears, though, were the footsoldiers of industrial Britain. Some of her parents' generation even worked in the last factories, mines and mills - relics of West Yorkshire's status as an economic powerhouse.
Today, heavy industry has moved on to other, cheaper and more productive parts of the globe. Only 40 people are now employed in weaving in the whole of Dewsbury.
The original workforce and their descendants, however, have been left marginalised, often suspicious of growing immigrant communities. Indeed, 13 per cent of Dewsbury's population is of Asian origin - who bring their own traditions and entrepreneurial drive.
Other traditional foundation stones have also shifted.
The powerful family cornerstone of marriage no longer exists, nor in many cases does the nuclear household and the maternal bond.
The result has been disastrous.
At least 13 of the children in the latest generation related to the Matthews family do not live with their mothers, for one reason or another. Several are being looked after by others.
One was put out for adoption. Another is serving a life sentence in prison.
What would Grandpa Matthewman have made of it all?
Old soldier Charlie Matthewman was Shannon's great-grandfather.
Life for him had begun in his family terraced home in the prosaically named Cross Foundry Street, in the centre of Dewsbury, in the summer after the Great War.
After leaving school, Charlie found work as a labourer with a metal merchant.
Gradually, Dewsbury's Victorian slums were being cleared and, on the edge of town overlooking the Spen Valley, the Moorside estate was being built as belated "Homes Fit for Heroes".
But Charlie continued to live in the house where he was born until he got married - eight days before the outbreak of World War II.
His bride Marjorie Asquith, 21, was the archetypal young Dewsbury woman - her occupation in the doom-laden summer of 1939 was a "rag sorter".
She worked in Dewsbury's core industry, known as "shoddy" - a localised branch of the textile manufacturing trade which recycled old wool rags from around the world into new garments, such as blankets and military uniforms.
When war broke out, he joined the Royal Engineers.
According to his family, he served throughout the conflict and into the Fifties, in Europe and the Far East, before taking a series of civilian jobs and retiring as a coal merchant.
Charlie and Marjorie had eight children: four sons who drove lorries and four daughters.
"Mum worked in the rag trade until she was 62," June, their third girl, recalled yesterday.
"Our grandparents used to look after us when Mum and Dad went to work.
"We didn't have anything posh, but our parents tried to bring us up the right way.
"We were brought up strictly and taught right from wrong and to work hard. The town has changed now. The textiles have gone and there aren't the same jobs as there were."
June and her sister, Margaret, followed their mother into the textile trade. June was working "on the bobbins" when she met and married local man Gordon Matthews in 1964.
He was employed as a van loader for another of the area's industrial totems, Fox's Biscuits, which gave the world the "Brandy Snap".
As the Matthews began their married life, across town, Joe and Marian Drake were preparing for the arrival of their eighth child.
Miner's daughter Marian would have one more after that, a son called Paul who, in adulthood, would change his name to Michael Donovan.
As the family tree moves through the Seventies and into the Eighties, the pattern begins to change. Weaving was dying. The traditional family unit was also breaking down.
June and Gordon Matthews were to have five sons and two daughters.
Both girls went on to have seven children each, but in deeply contrasting circumstances. The older daughter, Julie, now 38 and a senior care assistant at a nursing home, had them all by one man, John Poskitt, whom she first married and then stayed with.
Her sister, Karen, the Matthews' youngest child took a more "relaxed" approach to who fathered her offspring. "Karen has had more blokes than hot dinners," said her aunt Margaret last night.
Three of Karen's children - Ian, Daniel and Kelly - were already living with their respective fathers before Shannon went missing. The other four are now being looked after by others.
"Karen just goes from one bloke to the next, uses them to have a kid, grabs all the child benefit and moves on. That's all she wants out of it," kitchen assistant John Bretton, the father of her oldest child said earlier this week.
Similar behaviour can also be found in the Drake family. Paul was a mentally troubled young man who apparently changed his name to Mike Donovan in homage to the Australian pop star Jason Donovan.
He met a possibly even more troubled woman called Sue Bird, who already had a son. They married briefly and unhappily and had two girls, now both being looked after by others.
Bird had three more children with another boyfriend, Steve Bold, who now looks after them, relying on benefits. He says he thinks she had a further two offspring by another man.
What an almighty mess. But by now the two splintering sides of the family tree were catastrophically coming together.
Donovan/Drake's sister Alice married an HGV driver called Brian Meehan.
Scroll down for more...
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/03_03/kidsGUZDM1603_468x331.jpg
From joy to despair: The jubiliation at finding Shannon soon turned to anger
They had three children, one of whom, Amanda, ended up living next door to Karen Matthews on the Moorside estate.
Amanda is married to Neil Hyett, a coach driver who will happily tell you that he first met his wife when she fell off his bus, drunk.
Amanda introduced Karen Matthews to her younger brother, Craig Meehan.
Despite the ten-year age gap, they set up home together. Shortly afterwards, Karen had another baby, Courtney.
Then there is the equally unhappy story of 21-year-old Leeann Shazear Lamb, Shannon's second cousin.
She is the granddaughter of Margaret Matthewman, who had four children by her first husband, Dennis Lamb.
It was not an ideal home. The couple divorced after seven years and when daughter Denise was 14, her mother threw her out.
The girl went to live with her aunt Doreen because Margaret did not like her hanging out with Asian boys.
In 1986, Denise gave birth out of wedlock to Leeann.
The father was Asian, as reflected by the baby's middle name, Shazear.
According to grandmother Margaret, there were other siblings, born in similar circumstances.
Predictably, Leeann did not have a stable home and fell in with the wrong crowd - with terrible results. Last December, Leeann, by now 21, was sentenced to serve a minimum of 14 years for a brutal murder in Batley.
With her boyfriend and another man, she was convicted of the killing a 72-year-old convicted sex offender known as "Janks", who was beaten until he drowned in his own blood.
Afterwards, Leeann is said to have called a relative on her mobile phone and boasted: "So you know what we've done? We knocked Janks out and left him for dead."
Margaret (who only recently became reconciled with Leeann's mother - her daughter) says that her granddaughter is currently in Pinderfields Hospital, Wakefield, having tried to commit suicide in prison.
The family troubles persist. Craig Meehan's sister, Amanda, and her husband were arrested and questioned this week on suspicion of benefit fraud.
Rumour suggests that DNA tests will throw up one more shock that will further complicate the family tree.
So who is to blame for this mess?
"The Social Services for giving these people so much money to do nothing; the schools for having no discipline and the Government for not allowing parents to give their kid a slap when they're naughty," says Karen Matthews' aunt Margaret, hardly a paragon herself.
"We may have some bad offspring, but we are a decent, hard-working family."
It is a strange reversal of the old adage about the sins of the fathers being visited upon the sons - particularly in a modern society where few fathers are actually involved in the upbringing of their children.
But the world has changed since Charlie Matthewman's time. Sadly, Shannon Matthews' family tree is just one of a forest of broken homes.
Source (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=559949&in_page_id=1770&in_a_source=):
So....For all those people who said the McCanns only got the attention and people's sympathy because they were a middle class married couple with a profession and anyone of ordinary working class status on the dole would be derided - this family shows why.
As it turns out, no matter how wrong the McCann's were in their contribution towards their child going missing, the fact is the wrong has been done against them, not by them as in the matthews case.
Drug addicts are being handed free tickets to Premier League football matches as an incentive to beat their habit.
Repeat offenders seeking treatment for their alcohol and drug addictions have gained sought-after tickets to games including this weekend's Newcastle United vs Sunderland derby clash.
Community workers said the incentive helped reintegrate addicts into society.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=560128&in_page_id=1770&ct=5
phredd
04-17-2008, 08:55 AM
Free tickets for football matches lets them have more to spend on thier addiction.
Just another item to the list of freebies they already get.
Phredd
shoney
04-17-2008, 01:06 PM
britain is screwed because there are some great people ther but some time in the 60's / 70's you just forgot how to treat or accept eachother regardless of who they are , in NZ kids are still scallies ( smoke pot, drink piss, fight etc... )but they dont smash or break anything that they need or can use, I find the same in Aus and parts of the states,
Broliv
04-17-2008, 02:26 PM
I think its all down to the community and not just the family. There has been a distinct lack of a (local)community or (local)community cohesion for as long as i remember. Kids don't appreciate things because they are seldom included in anything, their families arn't included or don't get involved. If all people started being more involved in their local community then i think that it would be more manageable to deal with problem kids.
Even if people do get involved in certain aspects of the community, most groups work seperatly and not together, theres no link between them all.
Police have appealed for a man who witnessed the killing of a teenager at a London bakery to come forward.
http://static.sky.com/images/pictures/1677449.jpg
Jimmy Mizen had just turned 16
The white, middle-aged man holds "vital information" about the death of Jimmy Mizen, police said.
The 16-year-old was found with serious neck injuries in Lee, south east London on Saturday.
DCI Cliff Lyons said Jimmy was a teenager of "immaculate character" who was the victim of an "unprovoked and vicious attack".
Sky (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1315630,00.html)
================================================== ====
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/05_03/BlastHarrow2DM_468x348.jpg
Gang of girls 'blew up house with home-made bomb over row about boy' (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=565024&in_page_id=1770)
confront the father of a youth who stole your bike, spend a month in hospital being treated after 40 cowards attack you, yet this Huyton man finds nobody will be charged as the crown prosecution service dont think theres enough evidence.
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2008/05/14/battered-senseless-for-making-a-stand-100252-20907452/
brian daley
05-14-2008, 10:43 PM
When was the last time we had an occasion that united us in happiness?
When both the family,the neighbours ,school and church got together to organise a party in celebration of some great thing?
I can remember the spirit engendered by the celebration of the Festival Of Britain(missed the actual festivities),the even more lavish celebrations organised for the Queens coronation brought us all together ,uniting in the act of happiness.We were not cash rich,but we were proud and respectful. The Queens Jubilee was the last occasion that we organised our neighbourhoods into street parties and fetes. When a certain politician announced that there was no such thing as Society,she was telling a truth that has become evident with every act of murder and violence that happens in our midst. We can get angry over someones tragedy,rage against the inability of good to prevail over evil,but until we get our political masters to do our bidding instead of them foisting their weird acts of legislation upon us,I cannot see any hope for our future. If we could get back to basics, follow the laws of Truth,Virtue and Justice,if we could instil in our young the ethics of a society that is for the common good and teach them difference between
right and wrong, we could give them the building blocks for the future.
I love my country, I have no hatred for any group or creed that offers me and mine no harm, I would rather offer the hand of friendship than the fist of violence. We are only on this planet for such a brief moment of time,a bit more love would make that time so much richer,
Pax Vobiscum,
BrianD (of no religious grouping)
did anyone see that road police programme on tv last night?
aparently prisoners have a key to their own cells, tv etc in Walton J.
The fella who was caught driving whilst disqualified couldn't wait to get back inside....a break from his girlfriend he quipped. :disgust:
ChrisGeorge
05-15-2008, 08:56 AM
did anyone see that road police programme on tv last night?
aparently prisoners have a key to their own cells, tv etc in Walton J.
The fella who was caught driving whilst disqualified couldn't wait to get back inside....a break from his girlfriend he quipped. :disgust:
Incredible! What's the world coming to??? :PDT_Xtremez_12:
Howie
05-16-2008, 10:56 PM
No 'full-time' workers in 4.6 million British households - Tories
Published by Jon Land on Friday 16th May 2008
There are more than 4.5 million households in the UK where no one works full-time, according to research released by the Conservatives today.
The figure of 4.66 million households - which does not include homes occupied by pensioners - is up by more than 200,000 since 1997, when Labour came to power, said shadow work and pensions secretary Chris Grayling.
It means that some 10.9 million people live in households where there are working-age adults but no full-time workers.
Areas where half or more of households had no one working full-time include Liverpool Riverside (51%), North Hull (50%) and Rochdale (50%), said the Tories.
Worst affected region is the North East, where 29% of households have no full-time worker, compared to a national average of 25% and 21% in the South-East.
Mr Grayling said: "These figures show the true picture of the failure of welfare reform under Gordon Brown.
"It is unbelievable that this Government thinks it has achieved full employment when a quarter of households have no one in full-time work."
Other areas with high proportions of households with no full-time workers include Edmonton in north London, Birmingham Ladywood and Regents Park & Kensington North (all 46%), and Birmingham Hodge Hill, Vauxhall in south London and Manchester Blackley (45%).
Source: 24dash.com (http://www.24dash.com/news/Housing/2008-05-16-No-full-time-workers-in-4-5-million-British-households-Tories)
Howie
05-16-2008, 10:59 PM
Conservatives accused of "stigmatising" Merseyside parents
May 16 2008
Liverpool Daily Post
http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/liverpoolpost/jul2007/4/6/9FDA5A72-C103-025B-1BDAEF31CB598810.jpg
THE Tories were accused of “stigmatising” poor Merseyside parents last night, after claiming many resembled the feckless star of the TV show, Shameless.
Chris Grayling, the “shadow minister for Liverpool”, attacked irresponsible mothers and fathers who – like the anti-hero Frank Gallagher on the Channel 4 programme – failed to teach basic skills such as talking and eating, or a need to work.
Mr Grayling, the Conservative work spokesman, said such parents were concentrated in pockets of Merseyside, where up to half of households had no-one in full-time work.
He highlighted the parliamentary constituencies of Liverpool Riverside (51%), Birkenhead (43%), Bootle (41%), Liverpool West Derby (40%) and Halton (39%) as problem areas let down by Labour.
And he said: “Many parts of our society no longer know how to bring up children. We live in a country where, in many places, Frank Gallagher-style parenting has become the norm and not the exception.
“Frank’s kids might have turned out all right, but that was more luck than good judgment – and no thanks to him. There are too many communities where parents no longer know what good parenting is.”
But the Tory spokesman was quickly condemned by a children’s charity, which said his comments mirrored the party’s past attacks on lone parents – an attitude Mr Grayling has now apologised for.
Clare Tickell, of the NCH, said: “Any use of negative labels to describe vulnerable parents risks stigmatising and isolating those most in need.
“The fear of being labelled a bad parent deters adults from seeking help – perpetuating the problem of repeating bad parenting skills across the generations. It is time to move on from labelling and punishing parents to providing proper support.”
Speaking to the Daily Post, Mr Grayling said he spotted the resemblance on a recent walk through Toxteth, where he bumped into a little girl who had fallen off a huge bicycle.
He said: “She was clutching a bag of coins, having been sent to the shops on her own to buy cigarettes.”
Mr Grayling also highlighted a road, off Warwick Street, where a charity worker pointed to just three homes out of 50-odd where a parent was in work.
Insisting work was available, he added: “Just a mile away in central Liverpool, there is huge building work on a massive new shopping centre.”
The interview came as the Conservatives prepared to step up their plans to tackle the long-term unemployed.
Mr Grayling plans New York-style “back to work” centres, where private firms will be paid by results to get people into jobs.
Source: Liverpool Daily Post (http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/regional-news/2008/05/16/conservatives-accused-of-stigmatising-merseyside-parents-64375-20919366/)
Howie
05-17-2008, 11:17 PM
May 18, 2008
Tackling the bad-parent society
Children are increasingly left to their own devices and they grow up devoid of guidance or ambition for their future
Chris Grayling
In a street where few people work, near a corner where the pushers do their business, I picked up a little girl who’d fallen off her bike in the middle of the road. She must have been five years old, on a bike that was much too big for her, in the rain, clutching a bag of copper coins. Her mum had sent her out to get some things from the local shop. She was in tears.
In a community centre I met a young man of 27 who had never worked, and had spent most of the past 15 years blighted by addiction. “So what went wrong - why did you drop out of school?” I asked. “My parents were just liberal about schools,” he said. “They never made me go.”
The more I see, the more I believe that in too many parts of our society the experience of good responsible parenting is disappearing. It’s not an issue of lone parenting. Many lone parents do a heroic job in the face of all the pressures of family breakdown. The parenting challenge we face is much more complex than family breakdown alone.
In many places, parents no longer know how to bring up children. The parenting style of Frank Gallagher, the main figure in the Channel 4 series Shameless, has become the norm. In these communities, children are increasingly left to their own devices, as they grow up devoid of guidance or ambition for their future.
Most people learn their parenting skills from their own parents; when and how to say no, when to punish, when affection is needed. The problems come when that inherited knowledge simply isn’t there. In many of our most troubled areas, the generations pass pretty quickly; 30-year-old grandparents and 45-year-old great-grandparents are far from unusual in today’s Britain.
And when you overlay the challenges that many people in our most deprived areas face in their daily lives, then good parenting skills can disappear very quickly.
For most of us, it is our parents who teach us about getting up and going to work every day, who push us through school and emphasise the need for a career - but in some places this doesn’t happen. In some communities, a culture of dependency is being passed on from parent to child.
The Health Is Wealth Commission in Liverpool has just published a report on the social challenges in the city. This comment from a local man really struck me: “There is a post-working class culture which wasn’t around when I was growing up . . . my mum and dad and all my friends’ mums and dads went to work . . . there is an issue that is post-that, that’s made benefits the norm . . . and somehow people have to be re-engaged.” He is right.
Last year I spoke to a teacher about the problem. She had asked the parent of a former pupil how he was getting on. “He’s doing really well,” she said. “He’s got himself on the sick.”
I can think of no better example of the poverty of aspiration that exists in so many areas. Small wonder that too many people, experiencing that lack of ambition from their own parents, have so little ambition for their own children. And as the government’s own research shows, parts of our society are becoming downwardly mobile across the generations.
But the problem is far broader than the issue of worklessness. I remember a head teacher in an old mining town explaining the challenge to me starkly. “Many children come here who can barely string a few words together because no one has ever really talked to them. I have children who’ve never had a proper meal, or eaten with a knife and fork, or sat at a table.”
But if you never had a book in your house as a child, how would you know that as a parent you need to help your child start to identify letters or words? If you were brought up never eating meals at a table and having never had a home-cooked meal, how would you know how to bring cooking and family mealtimes to your household?
I met a 14-year-old truant in Manchester who told me his mum hadn’t got up that morning, and so he hadn’t bothered to either. As the generations pass, so the family experience of education and its purpose becomes more and more dissipated - and the chance of social mobility among the most deprived in our society becomes remoter.
In a disturbing number of homes, addiction is a way of life. Much of the family’s income disappears to fuel a drug or alcohol dependency. Any extra money from the benefits system simply finds its way to the local drug dealer.
So how do we break families out of this generational cycle? First, let’s recognise the limits of politics. You can’t just pass laws instructing parents to be good at their job; cash transfers alone cannot end poverty. But we can make a difference, and to start with, we have to end the blight of generational worklessness and the culture of entitlement in our welfare state. We should provide better support for people to get back to work, but deny out-of-work benefits to those who refuse to participate in that process.
Second, we need zero tolerance of truancy and early intervention in schools and by health visitors to help troubled parents and children. Then we need a welfare support and benefits system that protects families’ stability. The tax credits system should not make it more financially attractive for couples to live apart rather than together.
Finally, we need to empower the voluntary groups, like the Home-Start charity, which can do so much to tackle the challenge on a local basis.
Good parenting must be a part of these families’ futures and not just their past.
Chris Grayling is the shadow secretary for work and pensions
Source: Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article3953603.ece)
cockney-fella
05-18-2008, 01:34 AM
Great Britain was "Great" 50 or 60 years ago now its just a toilet where you'll get penalised if your a working law abiding member of the community.
I moved to Liverpool after I left the military as it was alot different to London in terms of crime etc now its pretty much caught up with the "Smoke". I never thought I could ever leave the UK but just lately I'm seriously thinking about it, I'm lucky in that I also have French nationality due to my 5 years service with the French Foreign Legion so it would probably be Marseilles for me a lovely city low crime rate and cheap housing.
The UKs been surrended to the scum of the earth by lefty liberal bleeding hearts and the EU with their Human Rights.....a bientot
Howie
05-18-2008, 01:57 AM
The UKs been surrended to the scum of the earth by lefty liberal bleeding hearts and the EU with their Human Rights.
I take it that you don't think the change in our country has had anything to do with the individualistic and materialistic values promoted by the Tory govt. of the eighties led by Maggie "there is no such thing as society" Thatcher then? :rolleyes: - Personally, I think that is when the rot set in. :sad: Along with the blind pursuit of economic growth by successive governments with total disregard for the increasing inequality in our society and its social consequences. :disgust:
cockney-fella
05-18-2008, 03:02 AM
No I think the rot set in when our leaders were ex 60's hippies like Blair and his entire cabinet peace and love man, individual expressionism, let it all hang out crowd, theyre not criminals just misunderstood kids man !!!!
I was still serving in the HM Forces when Maggie came in and I have nothing but the utmost respect for her a strong leader who would'nt bow down to Europe unlike our present leaders, and Britain had some respect still left until we became Bush's lapdog.
Libertarian
05-18-2008, 12:31 PM
No I think the rot set in when our leaders were ex 60's hippies like Blair and his entire cabinet peace and love man, individual expressionism, let it all hang out crowd, theyre not criminals just misunderstood kids man !!!!
I was still serving in the HM Forces when Maggie came in and I have nothing but the utmost respect for her a strong leader who would'nt bow down to Europe unlike our present leaders, and Britain had some respect still left until we became Bush's lapdog.
The economic freedom and individualism of the 80's was simply a continuation of the personal and Liberal freedom of the 60's. The baby boomers after the war who benefited from the freedom of the 60's voted en masse for the neo liberals in the 80's as they provided the concomitant economic liberties.
So u r both wrong.
A.D.W
05-18-2008, 12:40 PM
I take it that you don't think the change in our country has had anything to do with the individualistic and materialistic values promoted by the Tory govt. of the eighties led by Maggie "there is no such thing as society" Thatcher then? :rolleyes: - Personally, I think that is when the rot set in. :sad: Along with the blind pursuit of economic growth by successive governments with total disregard for the increasing inequality in our society and its social consequences. :disgust:
Some valid points, Howie, but we must remember why the Tories got into power in 1979. The Winter of Discontent, mass strikes, food shortages, power cuts and here in Liverpool people unable to bury their loved ones in 1978.
Also it is all very well saying that Mrs T said 'there is no such thing as society', when this socialist government is closing post offices hand over fist. If post offices are not a central part of this society then I don't know what is.
I'll finish by saying that this 'socialist' government is in the pocket of big business and I thought socialist governments where supposed to protect the working man not keep him down!!
:PDT_Xtremez_42:
A.D.W
05-18-2008, 12:41 PM
So u r both wrong.
In your opinion of course.
cockney-fella
05-18-2008, 09:23 PM
The economic freedom and individualism of the 80's was simply a continuation of the personal and Liberal freedom of the 60's. The baby boomers after the war who benefited from the freedom of the 60's voted en masse for the neo liberals in the 80's as they provided the concomitant economic liberties.
So u r both wrong.
Says you of course
Howie
05-18-2008, 11:01 PM
Some valid points, Howie, but we must remember why the Tories got into power in 1979. The Winter of Discontent, mass strikes, food shortages, power cuts and here in Liverpool people unable to bury their loved ones in 1978.
Also it is all very well saying that Mrs T said 'there is no such thing as society', when this socialist government is closing post offices hand over fist. If post offices are not a central part of this society then I don't know what is.
I'll finish by saying that this 'socialist' government is in the pocket of big business and I thought socialist governments where supposed to protect the working man not keep him down!!
:PDT_Xtremez_42:
Fair comment A.D.W assuming your referring to New Labour as socialist is tongue-in-cheek. You'll be calling the Lib-Dems anarchist next! :slywink:
Sixteen weapons have been seized from youths as young as 14 who were aboard a bus near to where teenager Jimmy Mizen was murdered.
Six knives, two screwdrivers, a corkscrew, a golf club, a metal baseball bat, a mallet, two wrench handles, a claw hammer and a metal bar were taken from the gang in south east London.
Reports suggest they were preparing for a fight with another gang in another part of the capital.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/skynews/20080520/tuk-police-find-16-weapons-on-one-bus-45dbed5.html
Howie
05-20-2008, 11:47 PM
Also it is all very well saying that Mrs T said 'there is no such thing as society', when this socialist government is closing post offices hand over fist. If post offices are not a central part of this society then I don't know what is.
Not content with allowing Royal Mail to close hundreds of post offices around the country as part of a bid to become more market friendly, the government is said to be considering plans to part-privatise the entire postal service. :disgust:
More (http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=14930)...
Howie
05-25-2008, 10:59 PM
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/images/homepage/2505_enforcer_header.jpg
Crime-ridden communties have lost faith in our police
Now they're recruiting hard men like this convicted KILLER to purge their streets of thugs
By Douglas Wight & Kris Hollington
THIS man is a convicted KILLER. Yet in the eyes of his inner city community he is a HERO.
Because when it comes to getting JUSTICE, victims of crime in the streets where Pete Stockley lives would rather turn to HIM than dial 999.
Reformed criminal Stockley is an Enforcer—one of a growing army of hard men in Britain trusted by their neighbours to look after them better than the boys in blue.
CLICK HERE TO READ ABOUT POTTER STAR'S TRAGIC STABBING (http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/2505_robert_knox.shtml)
CLICK HERE TO TELL US HOW WE SHOULD SAVE OUR STREETS (http://blogs.notw.co.uk/thebigone/2008/05/how-should-we-s.html)
CLICK HERE TO READ BORIS JOHNSON ON HOW HE WILL SAVE OUR STREETS (http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/1805_save_our_streets_boris.shtml)
CLICK HERE TO READ MORE ON THE TRAGIC STORY OF JIMMY MIZEN (http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/1805_mizen.shtml)
CLICK MORE TO READ MORE ON THE POLICE CRACKDOWN ON DRUG CRIME (http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/1805_crackdown.shtml)
CLICK HERE TO READ MORE ON KNIFE BAN FAILINGS (http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/2505_knives.shtml)
Today, in the second of our Save Our Streets exposés highlighting the breakdown of decency in Britain, we look at how OUTLAWS are enforcing the LAW in our communities.
"The police are toothless and have become a joke in deprived areas," says Stockley, 63, who ironically has done time for assaulting a PC. "They seem to concentrate on the easy targets—not the serious young villains. Locals wonder who is going to protect us."
The answer is people like Stockley —and even the cops reluctantly admit it.
"A whole parallel justice system is now rolling out across Britain where street justice is enforced by vigilantes and self-styled community leaders," a police source told us.
Crossbow
"Their most common form of punishment is fining fellow criminals, gang members and their families for anti-social behaviour."
And it can be effective—as Stockley, who runs a vigilante scheme in Huyton, Merseyside, reveals. "Not long ago a man in his 30s was beaten badly by a teenage gang," he said.
"He wanted revenge. I came across him firing a crossbow into a tree in a park one night. He was going to take matters into his own hands. I told him to leave it and helped him find the lads.
"I told the parents they needed to pay compensation to the man, £500 each. My reputation for toughness as well as fairness helped them agree to pay. It brings it home to them that there are consequences for their kids' behaviour."
In a city where crime is 46 PER CENT above the national average, with attacks nearly 50 PER CENT higher, it's easy to see why people turn to men like Stockley. He spent six years in prison for manslaughter after shooting a man in the head in a gangland fight.
But he thinks he's an ideal role model to prevent kids following his path into a life of crime.
With his reputation as a tough fighter he landed a job as a doorman and came to despise the gangs that ruled the clubs in the Sixties. "The gangs hated me and I had a gun pulled on me eight times," he says.
Stockley began life as an enforcer after coming out of prison over 20 years ago—and vowed to make a difference. He says his criminal convictions serve as a badge of honour in a tough area.
"I sort of acted like the unofficial uncle to a lot of kids in the area and as a righteous ghoul to the bad ones and their parents. I tried to use verbal persuasions instead of violent ones. My record made sure people paid attention.
"For the last 22 years I haven't been in trouble with the law. But the reputation sticks. People know me for what I've done." Like Chris, a 58-year-old disabled man who turned to Stockley after being terrorised by a gang of youths who smashed his windows.
Chris told us: "The police came but I could tell they weren't going to get anywhere with it. So I approached Peter.
"He found the kids and talked to them and their families. Within a few days those same kids came with the money for new windows and I've never had any bother from them since."
Many enforcers like Stockley emerged as a result of a government scheme to empower communities.
Street Watch was devised by former Home Secretary Michael Howard in 1994 to enable groups of residents to patrol the streets and become the "eyes and ears" of the local police.
There are now 20,000 schemes in the UK. But many have evolved into vigilante operations as the reputation of the police has suffered in our cities.
One Birmingham resident told our reporters his Street Watch group used physical and verbal abuse to drive prostitutes and their customers from the area. He added: "They achieved more in three weeks than the police did in 30 years."
The author of a report on policing and vigilantism to be published this summer knows just what he means.
Dr Kate Williams, of Wolverhampton University, told us: "Ordinary people don't mind if the local Street Watch group crack a few ribs to get rid of the vandals. One officer told me, ‘We can't use the tactics they use but it bloody works'. They were pleased."
Shooting
But inevitably active criminals have infiltrated the groups for their own ends. An enforcer in Lambeth, South London, told us: "Police have abandoned inner city areas. It's up to us to sort out stuff in-house."
He said he could guarantee the return of stolen goods and the end of anti-social behaviour. But in return he expected people to turn a blind eye to his other ‘activities'. "We operate outside the rules and know exactly where to look," he said. "I usually get a result in a few hours."
Back in Huyton, Stockley—who runs the Dovecot Community Centre—claims he doesn't ask for anything in return for his kind of protection. He says he's just trying to give kids focus in life.
"The kids that come here don't trust the police to protect them. We were talking about a shooting one of them witnessed when a young girl told me, ‘My mum says you should be like the three wise monkeys; see nothing, say nothing and do nothing!'
"The police are unwilling to really help unless you became a grass, which, in our area, is unwise."
Stockley says he handles on average two "jobs" a month. "Matters range from retrieving stolen bikes for kids, getting stolen cars back, having wrecked property paid for and warning off youngsters who are giving trouble to defenceless families," he says.
"I've handed at least three guns into police stations which I had taken off stupid young men who had threatened me with them." But not all enforcers are prepared, like Stockley, to do it for nothing.
Criminologist Prof David Wilson researched one enforcer in Doncaster who promised householders in an area rife with burglaries that, for a pound a week, he'd place a sticker in their window saying he was guarding their property. His reputation suggested to people he could do things the police couldn't," said Prof Wilson of Birmingham City University.
"He had spent several years in and out of prison, once for assaulting a police officer. He was very effective, burglary fell to almost nothing. This was back in 1996. He's still going today.
"Residents told me they paid him because, ‘If he finds anybody he takes them round the back and gives them a hiding'. Enforcers are popular because they're quicker than the police and they have access to something people feel that the police don't have—immediate justice." But he added: "Don't get me wrong. These enforcers aren't Robin Hoods. They are not the way forward and what they are doing is unacceptable."
A spokesman for the Association of Chief Police Officers agreed: "The role of the police is to prevent crime and disorder. Where individuals may seek to build a power base through intimidation, the experience of the police is they are invariably motivated by personal gain and bring nothing but misery to communities rather than any benefit."
But that argument doesn't wash with 58-year-old single mum June, who was delighted at the quick results Stockley achieved for her family.
"A gang of 16-year-olds robbed my teenage son's bike," she told us. "Peter had the bike back the next day and the kids apologised. He did it just by talking to them.
"It helps to know if there was any serious trouble I know I could go to Peter."
Source: News of the World (http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/2505_enforcer.shtml)
More than 2,500 people have been stabbed to death on Labour's watch, according to figures soon to be published by the Home Office.
Yet, over the same period, only nine of the countless criminals caught with knives have been given the maximum jail term.
Take 2006, a year scarred by a series of teenage stabbings, and the latest for which full sentencing statistics are available. Some 1,226 under-18s were found guilty of carrying a blade yet only 72 were put behind bars.
The average sentence was 3.4 months, which because of early-release rules, meant that a typical offender spent just eight weeks in jail.
The remainder escaped with a fine, a community sentence or - in 113 cases - a discharge. Only one of the 7,817 knife offenders of all ages received the maximum sentence in 2006.
So who is to blame? Partly, it is the police and prosecutors. Every year, they allow thousands of offenders to escape with a simple caution.
This reflects their suspicion that the courts will almost certainly let the criminals off.
The courts shoulder more responsibility, in part because of their misplaced belief that young people should be given a second chance in the community rather than be sent to jail.
Only two weeks ago, the Sentencing Guidelines Council told magistrates that youngsters could escape with a fine if their bladed weapons were not carried to 'threaten or cause fear'.
Overwhelmingly, however, the Government is in the dock over knife crime. Ministers have failed to provide the political will that is needed to make the judiciary get tough.
There have been knife crime summits, instructions to police to search more suspects and, last week, an advertising campaign advising mothers to check on their sons.
Labour has though refused calls from victim groups for mandatory jail terms for those carrying a blade.
A similar move on carrying guns has seen crimes in that area start to stabilise. Ministers looked at extending the idea but backed off when told how many more jail spaces it would require.
Source (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1021893/JAMES-SLACK-How-Labours-soft-justice-cost-2-500-lives.html)
The family of Rob Knox last night led a wave of attacks on the Children's Commissioner over his stance on knife crime.
Sir Al Aynsley Green said increased use of police stop and search powers to catch knife thugs would 'antagonise' young people.
MORE STABBINGS:
Man charged with murder of Harry Potter star as his grandmother warns 'Britain is spiralling out of control' (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1021985/Grandmother-murdered-Harry-Potter-star-says-Britain-spiralling-control-man-charged-murder.html)
The grandmother of Rob Knox, the teenage actor stabbed to death at the weekend, has condemned bad parents for contributing towards Britain's epidemic of stabbings.
MORE TAXES:
MPs demand Brown U-turns over 'green' tax on millions of family car drivers (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1022066/MPs-demand-Brown-U-turns-green-tax-millions-family-car-drivers.html)
Extra taxes that will hit seven out of ten motorists must be scrapped, nervous Labour MPs demanded. Under Budget proposals which will kick in next year, millions of drivers will pay hundreds of pounds more per year to use the roads depending on their car engine emissions. Rebel MPs are particularly unhappy that the road tax increases will apply retrospectively.
I'm sure the Government wants us all on Benefits.
Why would anyone these days waste their time looking for work?
Five men have been slashed and stabbed in the latest spate of knife violence on Britain's streets.
(http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1317236,00.html) More... (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1317236,00.html)
I read something in the NOTW on sunday and couldn't believe it so I googled it today when I thought on.
Thousands of Eastern European, mainly Polish workers can claim British family allowance for their children back home in Poland. Apart from the fact this is ludicrous, the figure which is set at a rate in line with our cost of living is worth 4 times as much out there - please tell me this is wrong???????
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/17023/Benefits-bill-for-EU-migrants-trebles
.
nothin suprises me these days. the government wants to shaft working people any way it can, the media wants us all to be drug taking junkies and alcoholics and female (lets face it, if u area fella, u are not fashionable) and if u are then we should all be drug dealers or professional footy players.
thats what u would think our country stood for anyway, no wonder the germans are advising their own to stear clear of us all.
Howie
06-05-2008, 10:30 PM
Ex-gangster vigilante Pete Stockley attacked
Jun 5 2008
by Luke Traynor, Liverpool Echo
http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/article/11162100/2008/06/05/12179530.jpeg
A SELF-STYLED Liverpool vigilante has been beaten up by a mob of his old enemies.
Pete Stockley, 65, was confronted by up to six men yesterday outside the Academy community centre on East Prescot Road.
The former convict recently spoke out about his work as an “enforcer” and attempts to drive out the troublemakers from the Dovecot community.
But at 4.30pm yesterday, a gang beat Mr Stockley as he returned from a canoeing trip to the River Dee with teenagers.
His face was slashed with knuckledusters and he was taken to hospital where he received stitches.
The ex-bouncer, who was once convicted of manslaughter after shooting a man, is believed to have inflamed a 20-year-old rivalry after speaking out about his work to clean up the community, (see post #129 (http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showpost.php?p=133329&postcount=129)).
More (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2008/06/05/ex-gangster-vigilante-pete-stockley-attacked-100252-21027964/)...
carole1000
06-08-2008, 09:13 AM
just been reading this thread, cannot believe how bad it seems, I have only been back to the uk twice in over five years so I guess I am a little out of touch as to how it really is, but I do watch the news and am horrified to see the amount of murders of young people. When i heard about little rhys jones being shot on his way back from football practice, I realised how lucky my sons are and the enviroment they are growing up in, where we live, obviously I cannot speak for the rest of spain, it does remind you of england 30 years ago, my children walk from school to football practice, a good 10 minutes walk, all the time and I have finally learnt to relax and not worry about them, I couldnt beleive that some inocent young lad could die doing just that!!!! They are very family orientated here, they all live within spitting distance of all their relatives, ie, nans grandads, aunties and uncles, and they all help with bringing up the children and also reprimanding them. This seems to lead to the utmost respect for the older generation, on many occasion I have been in the doctors waiting room, where a little old lady will be sat waiting, and all of a sudden her 17 year old grandson will come and collect her, linking his arm in hers and helping her steadily home. When you walk past tennagers, they just move out of your way, or say perdona if they accidently bump into you. They also do not have lots of toys, my children tell me their friends have not got much, when the spanish kids come to my house they are in awe of my kids bedrooms, and I have cut down so much on toys for them, the spanish maybe get one or two presents at christmas and they are so chuffed, a little boy recently had a birthday party and proudly showed us his new Tennis shoes Tennis raquet and tennis tee shirt (probably cost about 60 euros altogether) that he got for his birthday, can you imagine the kids in britain today getting just a couple of items for their birthday, there would probably be a riot. now dont get me wrong I Know that there are loads of decent families and children over in the uk, but there is a lot that are not decent. The spanish kids dont watch much telly here and also spend more time in the little parks with the rest of the family, I know you can also get really naughty spanish kids cos kids are kids but there is no malice in them, I think if some them spent a month in britain they would probably be terrified. Also they are not afraid to tell each others kids off, if a child is misbehaving then he will be reprimanded and will look very sheepish afterwards, but the mother does not get on her high horse, she will also tell the child off. Sorry if I have gone on and on about spain cos it is not the bee all and end all of everything but just to try and point out the difference in being family orientated and the effect it can have on our children.
shoney
06-08-2008, 07:54 PM
watched a doco last night here about mindless youth violence and terror in the uk, a lot of it was in the northwest and featured garry newloves murder, some of the local communities were trying to stand up against the instigators but they were all in fear of being picked on, singled out and their homes wrecked, last time i set foot in the uk was 7 years ago for 9 days so I am out of touch with the way things have gone over there but me and my wife just sat there with our mouths open during the whole show and can't understand why our families want to bring their kids up there, it can't be for the community spirit, safety or the pleasant surroundings, neither is it for the job market or the prospects of being able to afford a nice house. From what I saw the place is screwed due to a lot of mindless violence and vandalism
Well, I afforded myself a wry smile on saturday when reading the Daily Mirror though the subject matter should have left me horrified. Thank god we haven't stooped to this level yet I thought - for all the bad that's been posted before.
Graphic frame by frame pictures taken on a busy road somewhere in the USA showed a 70 odd year old man being flung up in the air during a hit and run with other cars driving past and even passers by taking a photograph of him lying helpless instead of assisting him.
Not that bad a Britain after all :)
I just really don't think with that amount of people shown just walking by, that that would have happened here.
Howie
06-28-2008, 01:47 AM
Thug let out of jail early rapes boy while high on drugs
By Daily Mail Reporter
Last updated at 11:40 PM on 27th June 2008
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/06/27/article-0-01C598BC00000578-781_233x364.jpg
Vicious: Craig Dillon dragged his victim into a park
An offender who was freed early from jail to help ease prison overcrowding raped a 16-year-old boy while high on drugs and drink.
Craig Dillon, 21, was jailed for breaching an Asbo but was released from prison 18 days early last September as part of the Government’s End of Custody Licence Scheme.
Days later, he attacked a teenage boy, dragging him into a park in Liverpool and carrying out a vicious rape. Dillon, from Knotty Ash, Merseyside, was jailed indefinitely.
Details of the incident lent further weight to criticism of the early release scheme yesterday, with Opposition MPs calling on the Government to scrap it immediately.
Astonishing figures also emerged showing that early-release offenders are being paid more than £2.6million a year in extra benefits for subsistence and housing.
Justice Secretary Jack Straw defended the payments, saying that offenders cannot claim benefits until their sentence formally ends.
The early-release scheme was launched a year ago tomorrow and since then more than 25,000 criminals have been set free early.
They have gone on to commit hundreds of offences during the period when they would have been behind bars, including one murder.
Tory justice spokesman Nick Herbert said: ‘This appalling policy gives criminals a break and creates hundreds of other unnecessary victims of crime.’
Source: Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1030094/Thug-let-jail-early-rapes-boy-high-drugs.html)
Its a sad indictment of todays society that the only thing that shocks me about that article is that he was actually jailed for breaching his asbo in the first place.
brian daley
06-28-2008, 12:57 PM
The nameless individuals who are responsible for releasing these dangerous people back into society should be brought to book whenever situations like this occur. As an ex magistrate I feel that the particular individual who lets people go without being 100% certain that they will not re offend should be accused of manslaughter. They are directly responsible for the deaths that happen and should be made to pay for their irresponsible actions.
I see that one of these people are about sue the authorities for £300,00.00, she should be hanging her head in shame for the pain and sorrow caused to the grieving families.
Mr Angry (BrianD0
Not arf Brian. If they had some duty to responsibility and were to be held to account, they might think a bit longer and a bit harder about releasing these people back into society.
The medias facination with Amy Winehouse and gun gangs.
nuff said.
Oh BTW, druggies and alcoholics can claim disability benefit.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/06/28/article-1030190-01C7C78A00000578-231_468x664.jpg (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/06/28/article-1030190-01C7C78A00000578-231_468x664.jpg)
My nan and grandad will be turning in their graves :disgust:
lenka
07-03-2008, 05:27 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1030798/Muslim-outrage-police-advert-featuring-cute-puppy-sitting-policemans-hat.html
what do you think?
lindylou
07-03-2008, 05:34 PM
My answer to that is, if someone doesn't like the little dog - well tough !
Anyway, take little notice to Daily Mail reports. It sounds like nonsense to me. If it were correct then we would have had Muslims objecting to images with little piggies !! :rolleyes:
No Muslims that I know would object to those images.
lenka
07-03-2008, 06:29 PM
How can this possibly be offensive?this is ridiculous.
brian daley
07-03-2008, 08:00 PM
I hate racism in all its manifestations, in 1973 I helped set up the Birmingham Anti Fascist committee ,which later became the Anti Nazi League,but thats another story. During the late sixties and early seventies the surge of immigration, that took place with the expulsion of the Asians from Uganda and Kenya, led to the growth of far right groups who led attacks on these unfortunate people. Hence the need for some strong opposition. The Hindu and Sikh communties settled down and a lot of them became succesful in businesses that led to them becoming respected within the areas they lived. I worked for an Asian company and got to know how they respected hard work and had a desire to be a part of the society in which they lived.
The Muslims started to import their Imams to set up their mosques and it was with the importation of the "priests" that the radicalisation of the younger muslims began. Lord Abdul,Britains premier Muslim peer points the finger at those same "priests" as being the cause of so much discontent within that community. I look after a number of Muslim centers,mosques and madrassas and have seen the change taking place over the last 15 years. The older muslims are dismayed at the young radicals, they do not want to be a part of British society,they wish to Islamicize the country and are working to bring the end of Christianity and democracy. Every time we concede to the "feelings" and attend their "sensitivities" we make them more contemptuous of us. Everytime a politician asks us to accept that we are a multicultural society,another nail is hammered into the box wherein society as we know it will be dumped. My son in law is Egyptian and my grandson falls between the two worlds. I do not wish to incite hatred but wish to awaken the appeasers to the damage they do when they get us to give up that which has been ours for centuries. Our identity!! We have been fashioned out the admixture of the waves of immigrants who came to these shores,some forced and others seeking a better life. We are a vast tapestry woven from the many strains of humanity,each thread bringing its colour and culture to enhance the whole,not as is happening now when some section seeks to stain that tapestry 'til the whole of it is coloured in just one hue.
I want my grandson to be proud of his faith, but I have no wish to have it forced upon us all because of the weakness shown by our politicians.
BrianD
shytalk
07-03-2008, 08:17 PM
Fair comment Brian. Probably fairer than my initial reaction. I am glad I didn't comment first because then it would have been hard to express my full agreement with your post.:PDT_Aliboronz_24:
Howie
07-03-2008, 10:49 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1030798/Muslim-outrage-police-advert-featuring-cute-puppy-sitting-policemans-hat.html
what do you think?
http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/rmg/lowres/rmgn13l.jpg
lindylou
07-04-2008, 01:10 PM
The medias facination with Amy Winehouse and gun gangs.
nuff said.
Oh BTW, druggies and alcoholics can claim disability benefit.
Amy Winehouse. What's the do with 'er !!
As much as liked her records - I have to say that she is a mess - and even worse of late !! Did you see her in concert - was it the Mandella one or Glastonbury ? Or was she in both ?
Forgot which one where I saw her - anyway, she was a show ( I think they must have wheeled her out !!) - tottering around the stage clutching the hem of her little raggy dress - and she hardly sang a note. She was just slurring and mumbling with the odd sound coming out. :shock: A shame for someone so talented. She got lifted down into the crowd and she staggered up and down infront of them !
I commented to my husband - ''imaginine seeing that tottering up Breck rd !!'' :shock: Ha!
I mean, if it was the local smack head or drunk staggering around like that people would have something to say. yet, here we have people fawning over Amy who makes a spectacle of herself :neutral:
Why do people look up and put on a pedestal so called 'icons' who are just a walking physical disaster ! if your own brother or sister was like that you'd worry !
'spose it was the same with Billie Holiday and Janis Joplin - and countless others - they were revered.
I am sorry to see Amy Winehouse in such a state because she is a good artist.
another day, another fella beat to a pulp for a ciggie:
http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2008/Aug/Week3/15083716.jpg (http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2008/Aug/Week3/15083716.jpg)
A 25-year-old man faces permanent brain damage after being viciously beaten by a group of youths who wanted a cigarette. more (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Martin-Bramhall-Faces-Permanent-Brain-Damage-After-Being-Attacked-For-Cigarette-Three-Arrested/Article/200808315083697?lpos=UK%2BNews_3&lid=ARTICLE_15083697_Martin%2BBramhall%2BFaces%2BP ermanent%2BBrain%2BDamage%2BAfter%2BBeing%2BAttack ed%2BFor%2BCigarette%252C%2BThree%2BArrested%2B)
...and anothe one:
Air rage attacks by binge Britons soar as assaults on cabin crews double (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1046599/Air-rage-attacks-binge-Britons-soar-assaults-cabin-crews-double.html)
What do Princess Diana and Tim Westwood have in common? It sounds like the start to a bad joke but the right answer is that both have been accused of contributing to Britain's 'downfall'.
The Daily Mail is this week serialising a book by Quentin Letts which points the finger at fifty seemingly scrupulous characters for the 'demise' of Great Britain. Here, in no particular order, are twenty examples:
1. Jeffrey Archer: "His crassness, his boastfulness, his social mountaineering, his pushiness, his sheer screamingly obvious dodginess, were traffic signs to his character and should have prevented him getting as far as he did."
2. Howard Schultz: The man who put world domination on the agenda for coffee chain Starbucks.
3. Tim Westwood: "Middle-aged Westwood is a Radio 1 disc jockey who has so immersed himself in the music of black rappers and American-style hip-hoppers that he has started to talk like one - and is leading thousands of young listeners down the same ill-guided alley."
4. Tony Blair: "There is a good, rough word to describe Tony Blair but we had better not write it out here in full."
5. Paul Burrell: "After Burrell, we expect less of close confidants. And we are less surprised by his sort of treachery."
6. John Prescott: "Prescott, a revolting specimen with the manners of a flatulent caveman, demeaned our public life."
7. Sir Jimmy Saville: "There are other examples - Tony Blackburn, Sir Paul McCartney, Keith Chegwin, Chris Evans - of egomaniac idiots whose refusal to submit to age infects our society with immaturity."
8. Richard Dawkins: "Anti-religionist Dawkins, the best-known English dissenter since Darwin, is the merciless demander of provable fact."
9. Janet Street-Porter: "This ageing non-revolutionary helped to mould a London media elite who are now hooked on youth."
10. Sir Alex Ferguson: "A man who has helped to drive the fun out of football and who often seems to forget that the contest between two teams of 11 lads is merely a game, not a struggle between right and wrong."
11. Richard Brunstrom: "The traffic-crazed Chief Constable of North Wales Police has pursued motorists to the point of frenzy."
12. Margaret Thatcher: "It was in the pursuit of the trade unions - specifically, Arthur Scargill's National Union of Mineworkers - that Mrs Thatcher did lasting damage to our country."
13. Princess Diana: "The sorry truth is that this adored concept, this packaged, airbrushed Diana, weakened our society. She made us more neurotic."
14. Charles Saatchi: "Does Saatchi never stop to consider what it does to the nurse or the soldier on a basic wage to see such fecklessness as Tracey Emin's 'Everyone I Have Ever Slept With' hailed as a masterpiece?"
15. John McEnroe: "McEnroe helped spread bad sportmanship to a generation of youngsters."
16. Stephen Marks: The man behind FCUK is blamed for "contributing to the coarseness of language in public."
17. Frank Blackmore: The man who introduced the mini-roundabout to Britain's roads. Enough said.
18. Alan Titchmarsh: "Alan is 'doing his bit for the environment' by joining something called the 'Saving Planet Earth' project. But after so much Alan Titchmarsh, will it want to be saved? Or will it plead for euthanasia?"
19. Richard Beeching: Behind the closure of a long list of railway stations. "To this day, there are traffic jams and bottlenecks which can be traced to Beeching."
20. Edward Heath: Heath was blamed for creating a climate of political terror about immigration.
Who would you put at the top of your list?
You can read excerpts from Quentin Letts' book on the Daily Mail website below:
One to twenty (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1069352/From-Princess-Di-man-invented-mini-roundabouts--fifty-people-wrecked-Britain.html)
Twenty-one to thirty-five (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1070535/QUENTIN-LETTS-The-50-people-wrecked-Britain--2.html)
Source: Yahoo News
brian daley
10-08-2008, 08:57 PM
On a superficial level it is very hard to disagree with the list that Quentin Letts has drawn up. Society has never been perfect,in every age we have had the "haves" and "have nots" ,so there has always been poverty and deprivation. what we did'nt have in the past was the constant barrage of publicity through the mass media about how the rich live, our working class ancestors never saw the inside of the upper classes houses nor knew about their love lives or how they spent their wealth. Today ,even the most illiterate chav can know about the lives of the rich and famous,their palaces and opulent lifestyle are the source of great envy and rancour. People who society should value are sidelined,the scientists ,doctors ,teachers and the producers of our countrys real wealth are not deemed newsworthy and thus become invisible. Who would I have at the top of my list,Rupert Murdoch, a man who amassed a great fortune out of peddling lies and trash and passing it off as news,a man whose broadcasting empire dominates the world of television and lowers the standards by forcing other broadcasters to get down and get dirty. Murdoch did'nt originate the gutter press he took it over and made it worse. I suppose I seem like an "old git", but I cannot help feeling sad about the distortion of our sense of values,like how a person such as Pete Docherty can be deemed worthy of a place in our national press when selfless,hard working men and women never get into print.
I've gone on too long, I sound like "Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells"
Isn't the government going to bail out banks for billions.
A Solution I heard bandied about yesterday so I can't lay claim to it....
How many of us are there? 60 million?? Give us all a million each...
Cheaper! Not one person will be dissatisfied! Ok, maybe means test it, I mean Macca, Al Fayed, Abramovich, JKR and even most mediocre championship footballers won't need it but you get my drift...
Or will it cause super inflation?
Mark R
10-09-2008, 10:12 AM
How the bloody hell can John McEnroe have contributed to Britain's downfall? He is American... Irrespective of how he behaved on court. There were other British sportsmen who misbehaved in their chosen fields before McEnroe - you only have to look at Leeds United FC, many other footballers/teams and James Hunt to name a few...
lindylou
10-09-2008, 12:19 PM
On a superficial level it is very hard to disagree with the list that Quentin Letts has drawn up. Society has never been perfect,in every age we have had the "haves" and "have nots" ,so there has always been poverty and deprivation. what we did'nt have in the past was the constant barrage of publicity through the mass media about how the rich live, our working class ancestors never saw the inside of the upper classes houses nor knew about their love lives or how they spent their wealth. Today ,even the most illiterate chav can know about the lives of the rich and famous,their palaces and opulent lifestyle are the source of great envy and rancour. People who society should value are sidelined,the scientists ,doctors ,teachers and the producers of our countrys real wealth are not deemed newsworthy and thus become invisible. Who would I have at the top of my list,Rupert Murdoch, a man who amassed a great fortune out of peddling lies and trash and passing it off as news,a man whose broadcasting empire dominates the world of television and lowers the standards by forcing other broadcasters to get down and get dirty. Murdoch did'nt originate the gutter press he took it over and made it worse. I suppose I seem like an "old git", but I cannot help feeling sad about the distortion of our sense of values,like how a person such as Pete Docherty can be deemed worthy of a place in our national press when selfless,hard working men and women never get into print.
I've gone on too long, I sound like "Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells"
Well said Brian. I agree with all of that :handclap:
Westwood when he talks like a rapper sounds so cheesy like when he did the UK version of MTV's pimp my ride. He would say words like the "big dawgs" and respect alot like a London gangster out of Guy Ritchie films.
I noticed that many of the people In that list have long or pointy noses like people who can shape shift Into Lizards.
Billy Bremner fighting with King Kev in the 74 charity shield - both sent off.
Harvey Smith putting 2 fingers up.
I think McEnroe slamming down his racket and making another racket such as 'You cannot be serious' was quite mild really. Remember the song 'Chalk dust'
Mark R
10-09-2008, 07:39 PM
You're right Ged. McEnroe always says that he is embarrassed looking at footage of himself and how he behaved. I suppose it was the winning mentality in him.
I remember Keegan & Bremner. Funny thing is, I'm sure Johnny Giles started that kick-off and disappeared into the background (letting Keegan & Bremner get on with it) :) Remember Franny Lee's diving as well? Not a new phenomena in our game :shock:
How many of us are there? 60 million?? Give us all a million each...
Give anyone who Isn't vermin and asbo evil a million each yeah.
Could do some cool things with a mill. Could do more coolness if I was an Oil lord though like buy some ships and make them Into hotels.
What can you say? Broken Britain, but the lifestyle that led up to this isn't out of the ordinary.....
================================================== ======
In another time and in another place Karen Matthews and her dysfunctional family would have been shunned by disapproving neighbours.
Her life of casual sexual relationships and shocking maternal neglect would have been seen as shameful and extraordinary.
Since becoming pregnant at 19 she has had seven children from five, or more likely six, fathers (such is the nature of her life that she appears to have lost count).
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/12/04/article-1092012-02B2CF44000005DC-924_468x355.jpg (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1092012/Seven-children-fathers-ring-Argos--Lazy-sex-mad-Karen-Matthews-symbolises-broken-Britain.html)
She has never married or had a job and always relied on benefits to pay for her drink and cigarettes. continues (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1092012/Seven-children-fathers-ring-Argos--Lazy-sex-mad-Karen-Matthews-symbolises-broken-Britain.html).....
LondonBeatlesFan
12-05-2008, 12:01 PM
Sadly, there are so many families like this in Britain. I try to avoid the Jeremy Kyle Show and others of that ilk, but I occasionally catch the end of a show and am always horrified by what I see and hear.
wsteve55
12-05-2008, 02:01 PM
I've just been listening to a discussion on the Jeremy Vine show, on radio 2about Karen Mathews, with some half-wits even trying to defend her,and her accomplices, actions! Sorry,but it just makes me feel like a dalek,exterminate, exterminate!:disgust: God help her kids, but maybe now they have a chance!?
Paddy
12-05-2008, 02:40 PM
Well this lot are trying their best to see the working class off.
The pair of them look like they're more than a sarnie short of a picnic, not a grey cell between them.
They might have actualy carried this off with better planning, like including the little girl in on the kidnap :rolleyes:
However, that's not advocating anything like that should ever be tried. She was on benefits worth around ?250 a week for sitting on her fat rear end anyway while her bf had child porn on his p.c. :disgust:
Sadly, there are so many families like this in Britain. I try to avoid the Jeremy Kyle Show and others of that ilk, but I occasionally catch the end of a show and am always horrified by what I see and hear.
Lol, those morning talk shows are funny.
Half the women sound like Katona In their voice tones.:eek:
The women talkshows waste their own time, they don't talk about anything meaningful. They moan about their men or do a competition to win some stupid spending spree.
Rhys's gun gang and a sneering underclass
As the three accomplices of Rhys Jones' killer were handed such paltry sentences that they are likely to serve only five years between them, their whoops for joy said it all. This was a good day for mob rule and a travesty for all those who care about justice.
Never has a punishment so poorly fitted the crime. James Yates supplied the gun that murdered Rhys. Nathan Quinn helped hide the weapon. Dean Kelly provided killer Sean Mercer with an alibi.
Each thug could have been sentenced to ten years. Instead, thanks to this Government's early-release scheme and the leniency of judges, two will serve only one year each in prison.
With sentences so soft for crimes so shocking it is little wonder that Yates sneered during the trial: 'All this fuss over a kid.'
His contempt for Rhys's life was shared by his fellow gang members as they cheered and winked at friends and family in the public gallery when the sentences were read out.
What a disgusting insight all this was into Britain's feral underclass, a world driven by crime, devastated by drugs, shattered by broken families and riven by gang violence.
This is the same broken society that Iain Duncan Smith has been crusading against in his wonderful work with the Centre for Social Justice.
It's the same broken society David Cameron has identified as a key battleground for the next election.
And it's the same broken society that is blighting communities across Britain.
The message is clear and simple: never has there been a greater need to address the rotten heart of underclass Britain.
Yet still Labour - which has done so much to create this underclass through a welfare system that rewards immoral and feckless behaviour - pathetically dismisses the very idea of a broken society as a politically motivated fiction put up by the Tories to denigrate Britain. How shameful.
This is not just a problem for Liverpool. It is a problem shared in many deprived areas where gangs are able to control entire estates, celebrated by their peers and feted or feared by their communities. And the greatest crime of all is denying there's a problem.
Rhys's parents - and Britain - deserve better.
Source (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1132813/AMANDA-PLATELL-Rhyss-gun-gang-sneering-underclass.html)
brian daley
01-31-2009, 08:54 AM
I have to admit that I agree with almost every word in that posting.
Britain is lacking moral guidance,their is no compunction in the underclass. We ,that is all of us created the growth of this undercalss by our meek acceptance of the laws and constraints placed upon us by the "liberal" minded thinkers who believe that we should molly coddle young offenders,that all are born with "rights" that you don't have to earn those "rights". Faceless bureaucrats have imposed upon us a rigid "political correctness" that forbids us from expressing that which is self evident.These people,the Noggies and the Crockies and the rest of the sneering mobs are worthless scum and deserving of nothing. They should be stripped of all human rights and cast out into that wilderness where there is no Giro cheque at the end of a workless week. They should be made to do menial labour,digging ditches and cleaning latrines. The gangs should be broken up and the wearing of face masks and hoods should be a punishable offence..
But what do I know? I'm just an angry old man having a rant.........if enough angry people got together , who knows? we might get things done.
shoney
01-31-2009, 09:00 AM
I think them and their like are animals, I'm glad I don't have to rub shoulders with their like anymore , everytime I feel I'd like to go back these kind of people remind me why i don't, I feel sorry for the good people around them that are disrespected by the government for allowing this type of scum to be partially punished and allowed back to live amongst the good people.
Paddy
01-31-2009, 10:07 AM
I see the article comes from the extreme right wing Daily Mail and to that extent it has to be considered jarg. And it is because we all have the same sentiments on these matters. These kids deserve to be punished a lot harder. Who suffers here? The parents firstly and all the family of Rhys the neighborhood and local community. Then it is Working Class people who bare the stigma of the depravity of the underclass. Then I might like to ask what Jeremy Kyle is about and Trish when these life styles are treated as entertainment for tattooed chain smoking mothers who donate nothing to the society they live in yet are deemed to be of interest. Why is our class being mocked in this way? Soon these caring Tories will be back with a more caring Capitalist system. Then you will see the cutbacks the enforced poverty and the swelling of the ranks of those who are dysfunctional. People are being conditioned to think that we are all like those who are willing to portray these images. The culprits behind the murder of Rhys cannot get out the world they are in. There is no way out for them but they are not representative of a class. We don?t have to be conservative to be respectable. I think that this issue like the James Bulger case is open to manipulation. Some people believe that evil is an innate faculty. Societies create their own evils. Melanie Jones is a hard working respectable Mother who lost a child very tragically and we all recognize that, and to be fair a lot of the people around her are quite devastated. The poor do have feelings the underclass thing is leading mainstream working class people back to a world of cut backs and social deprivation. Middle class crocodile tears from the Tory press are meaningless. Saving our butts from them is more important.
fortinian
01-31-2009, 10:51 AM
Unfortunately in the popular press there is little differentiation between the 'Working Class' and the 'Underclass'.
These lenient sentences are just another manifestation of the total disregard that the government has for the poor of this society. These thugs are given nominal sentences so that the government can drum out statistics on imprisonment. What they would really like to do is release these scumbags back onto the poor streets.
The true working-class does not exist anymore, certainly not in a homogenous sense, there is no loyalty to an ideal anymore, no desire to see change. The franchise of the working-class has slowly been eroded away by a cynical post-thatcher "Labour" government who are so divorced from the roots of the Labour movement that they cannot really be called left-wing at all. Class conciousness has been destroyed in the working-class leaving vacant half-thinking peons to simply act as grist in the mill of capitalism.
Until we have shootings in white middle-class south eastern suburbia things will not change.
captain kong
01-31-2009, 11:12 AM
Paddy, I dont see where you are coming from in this subject.
What has the Daily Mail got to do with what these scum said in court.
What has previous Conservative governments got to do with it. It is 12 years since they have been in Government. These ponces parading around as New Labour are no different. It was the left wing, commie pinko, trendies who encouraged PC. and disrespect.There is no poverty today under these benefits system. Poverty is self inflicted.
I was brought up in real poverty in the 1930s, NO benefits. Dad out of work because the factories were shut down. the Pits shut down.we had three of us to a bed and yes the traditional Army overcoat, from Dads service in the First world war in a land fit for heroes, a midden at the bottom of the yard and the night soil men shovelled it out along with the ashes.One cold water tap in the house.and one fire to cook on and warm the house. Just a gas mantle in the kitchen ,candles for the rest of the house, no radio, no TV no Nintendos , no anything. We were brought up with discipline, love, and respect, and we were happy with what very little we had, that was each other.
Today if you do not have a central heated house, with flat screen 37 inch TV with home movie attatched, a car, holidays in Benidorm, ciggies, ale, all free on the benefit system paid for by us tax payers then you are in poverty and are entitled to go and rob and kill other people.
This is a society created by the left wing commie pinko do gooders.that created the scum that walk the streets today.
It is about time that people got wise to them selves. and forgot this "traditional" I am working Class ideology, that is holding every one back.
If people want things in this life they have to work for it instead of waiting for hand outs from the people who do work and pay their taxes.
I worked for fifty years and took nothing out of the system, I did some of the hardest and toughest, most dangerous jobs working until retirement in the North Sea, I saw a lot of mates killed alongside me, I was badly injured a few times, but I didnt whinge I stuck to it until I was 65 because I wanted a decent retirement. I now pay tax on my small pension to keep the scum in benefits.
redjed1
01-31-2009, 12:56 PM
I thought the article was fine until it brought in the party politics.
I agree with paddy about the tories. For me it all started with Thatcher, whose government gave up on vast chunks of our country - bringing about the destruction of our manufacturing base in the traditional working class areas. With no jobs that paid a decent wage, people have adapted to get money where they could (benefits). Later generations have continued the trend - does anyone else get funny looks when they actually pay for prescriptions?
I could never trust the tories again. Labour re-invented themselves as New Labour, taking a giant stride to the right, and have almost become the old tories. Lib Dems were the sensible alternative, but they have disappeared - how many can name their new leader? Where do we go from here?
I'd like to -
Make do-gooders accountable to someone with a bit of common sense.
Do away with the claim culture -ban all the adverts for "if you've had an accident, call us"
Do something to protect our economy - look at renationalising essential services like travel (I'd love to get rid of my car but the public transport just isn't up to it) and energy (who make vast profits and still increase prices).
Decentralise the government departments to show there are other places beside London - how much is the olympic games going to cost us?
Anyway, another angry old man rant is over. Time for a pint.:PDT_Aliboronz_24:
Economic inequality doesn't apply to scum like the ones who killed and help kill Ryhs obviosly so I'm not this about people like them but some economic Inequality struggles partly do cause some crimes with some. Not all of us become Irrational though still either.
I would like to see Labour return to their old ways to when guys like Attlee and Wilson were Prime Ministers. Attlee created the NHS so and other basic human rights, his ways were maintained till Thatcher got In and I'm disgusted people were duped Into voting for her 3 times! Wilson helped start the Open University for people who didn't have much time for Uni education too.
Blair took things too far to the centre right although he did do minimum wage laws and Improved education though. I would rather become crippled than be that retards Bushes puppet though. Brown looks like he will do the same with Obama. :PDT_Xtremez_42:
If people want things in this life they have to work for it instead of waiting for hand outs from the people who do work and pay their taxes.
Works both ways, Incentives to work are diminished when benifets are paying more than most jobs no matter how many hours you work. Plus alot of jobs people do can;t afford them alot of things so without help and aid even hard workers would be screwed. No one should have to economically suffer like the past, mankind Is supposed to learn from It and not repeat what old farts moan about what they did.
The wealthy elitist put out their propaganda about benefits on bbc or other tv documentries by mainly focusing on the people who abuse It and they never show the people who better themselves with It and pay It back when their a tax payer.
Housing with central heating Is rightfully a human right, I read about a story In America the other day where they cut off a 93 year old WW2 veterans electric supply because of bill troubles and he died because of It. He was Intending to pay too.
Pensioners shouldn't be taxed like they are, even the working class In jobs are overtaxed while the rich aren't taxed enough!
Conservatives have no real values or views, they try to justify greed, promote propaganda or find a chink In the opposition and over play on that. If Cameron and his rich school boy chums want to help then maybe they should pay more tax like the rich should be and most of their money Is Inherited anyway.
I noticed how the writer of that article promoted Cameron too about how he would be tougher on crime, well why doesn't she mention how he wants to reinstate the stop and search without suspicion for example? Thats was one of the problem with many of the 80's riots because of racist police. Some Idiots just rioted for the sake of getting away with looting though too I admit though.
I do hate how the schemers make a mockery out of basic human rights though still.
Having the Lib Dems In our council has put me off them. They've sold out themselves.
I hope Labour can change back to some of their old ways though as they are a socialist party originally although not now they ain't. The Lib Dems came from the old Liberial party who didn't really help the working class like old Labour did anyway although I feel a bit liberial at times.
Oh yeah and the Tories pretend they care about crime then you have Idiots In their youh party dressing as Madellene.:PDT_Xtremez_42: Most of them are just unrealistic due to Inheriting wealth.
Left wing commie do gooders! :lol: I'm glad Britain Isn't a communist state, even though USSR and others were just dictators with an ego, Communism gives more to the state than the majority.
Paddy
01-31-2009, 01:17 PM
Fortinian your post makes sense. I think that we do have to accept that embourgeoisement of the working class is a reality perhaps enforced by false consciousness but saliently a social trend that signals the fragmentation of working class identity. My point is how is this reinforced? And too what extent is this false consciousness made manifest? The popular press in this country along with the BBC are going to great lengths to force this government out. Also continual coverage of deviant lifestyles is both sensational and based on moral panics. The working class under the monetarist economics of the last three decades might feel that class politics have withered away. However, and I make the point to you Kong, isn?t the present climate strangely familiar? I don?t mean the particular as in the murder of a child I mean the political climate. A looming recession the economic strategy of interventionism, a post modern relapse perhaps? Kong you must see a historical cycle to that extent. The point I make regarding the press coverage is I feel salient to the political climate; we are being coaxed into believing that the monsters that ended Rhys short life have been pampered by do gooders who want them treated leniently. Well this kind of slant is not unusual it is also a very good way of making the present Government appear incompetent and has little to do with how Liverpool people feel about this tragedy. And it is not over yet as the coverage of Mercer?s mothers trial will again bring out the crass sentiments of popular Tory culture driven by the mail. I don?t like what Blair did to this country and I see him as a mill stone around the neck of the labour movement. I am also convinced that a return of conservatism in a world that is willingly adopting a British economic paradigm to get out of world global recession will not help the lower strata or indeed the economy as a whole. A few of you might think that the IMF forecast that Britain?s economy will suffer more than other economies springs from worldly wise considerations a substantial factual evidence. As a sociologist I question sources. What economic paradigm does the IMF employ? Dare I suggest the one that got us into this mess? So yes we all feel aggrieved about the way these kids seem to be walking away with a slapped wrist I just think the matter should not be manipulated, the author of the article did go to great lengths to pin the blame!
LondonBeatlesFan
01-31-2009, 01:31 PM
There are so many factors involved in a problem such as this. On the one hand, there is lenient sentencing. These days murderers sometimes receive sentences which would be more suitable for someone who had stolen a car rather than someone who had killed in cold blood. On the other hand, there is the breakdown of family life. There is no discipline in many homes and schools and some young people take advantage of that fact. There is no respect for authority either. It all contributes to an ever-increasing decline in values. I feel sorry for the many decent young people who have to grow up in such an atmosphere.
It's reckless capitalism that has been Instilled Into people like business and banks that has caused the economic mess. I'm not anti capitalist but not for unbridled capitalism
Lot of business people seem very ego and materialistic costing them the realism they might of once had.
Sweden has some good examples we could use except Abba that Is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden
Mikerux
01-31-2009, 05:45 PM
:handclap::handclap::handclap:captain Kong you get my vote anytime-well said.:handclap::handclap:
Broliv
02-02-2009, 04:30 PM
Aye i'll second that. Spot on captain kong.
Max:
It's reckless capitalism that has been Instilled Into people like business and banks that has caused the economic mess. I'm not anti capitalist but not for unbridled capitalism
Lot of business people seem very ego and materialistic costing them the realism they might of once had.
The problem with the economy stems from banks lending money to people who can't pay it back. Now the question is, is it the banks fault that these people could get the credit (loans) thy did when they had no money, is is the fault of people taking too much money when they knew they couldn't pay it back, or is it the governments of the world fault for not imposing regulations on the banking industry to stop them giving loans to people who couldn't afford to pay back the money.
In my mind everyone is at fault not just banks and businesses.
Aye i'll second that. Spot on captain kong.
Max:
The problem with the economy stems from banks lending money to people who can't pay it back. Now the question is, is it the banks fault that these people could get the credit (loans) thy did when they had no money, is is the fault of people taking too much money when they knew they couldn't pay it back, or is it the governments of the world fault for not imposing regulations on the banking industry to stop them giving loans to people who couldn't afford to pay back the money.
In my mind everyone is at fault not just banks and businesses.
I agree It's their fault too but who gave them the credit loans they shouldn't of been having?
Can't Impose regulations unless they are nationalised surely?
Broliv
02-03-2009, 11:44 AM
The banks don't have to be nationalised, just in the same way that businesses don't have to be nationalised. We have laws to control them. We need legislation on a global level though because we've gone past the stage where businesses mainly dealt on a national scale. In the global economy that we have today we need global legislation agreed by the majority of the countries.
The main problem now that is fuelling the current recession is lack of credit. The banks have money but don't wish to lend it because they want to cover the full amount of savings invested in their bank. Northern rock as with many other banks lent out the depositors savings but in their case they used up too much of the depositors savings and invested the money in poor sub-prime markets. There was then a run on the bank because people realised that they didn't have enough dough to cover the savings.
What the governments around the world now have to agree on is what amount of savings the banks can lend safely and who to (i.e. credit rating) but also what happens if banks lend too much of the customers savings.
They get high class snake lawyers to find loopholes In the laws and theres no law saying they can't give loans to people with poor credit ratings or people who can;t pay It back.
If there isn't, then there needs to be.
Banks would previously lend 2.5 x an annual income for a mortgage knowing full well it was secured on a house they'd reposses if it all went wrong.
It's amazing how these banks are propped up by billions of the governments money just to go and make more zany decisions and all if forgotten and forgiven.
Paddy
02-03-2009, 12:30 PM
I think we should all recognize that this is a new era. The continuity of Blairism has gone now so lets roll :PDT11
Broliv
02-03-2009, 12:32 PM
Do you not think that if the lawyers can get around legislation through loop holes then the legislation needs amending. And the point i'm trying to make is yes they are fools for trying to lend money to people who can't pay it back and have no assets but people who have no assets and can't afford to pay back the loan are just as stupid. The problem people now face is lack of credit and re-possessions as the banks won't open themselves up to that risk again, and they will seek to call in the loans from people who they feel can't pay the money back. It is after all not the banks money but their depositors.
So even if people are paying back the loans, overdrafts and credit cards the banks call it in. People or businesses can't afford to payback the whole loan in-full.
There was no legislation before as too how much money a bank could lend out overall. That needs to change. Lending money to someone with a low credit rating will always happen but now it will mean that they will pay a much higher interest rate so the bank can recover more of the investment quicker and as a consequence make money too to cover the risk and to appease the depositors.
If you don't like the sound of that go join an ethical bank which only invests in areas endorsed by the depositors.
Broliv
02-03-2009, 01:21 PM
I think we should all recognize that this is a new era. The continuity of Blairism has gone now so lets roll :PDT11
good point
Loop holes and the ability to frizz away money seems to be the norm. Anyone see the Granada Tonight programme last night about the 50+ tax havens around the world, many of whom have our Queen on their stamps. Hundreds of billions lost to this which if this country rightly had would see us all living in Utopia if spent correctly.
Two more headlines that makes me wonder where it all went wrong:
Government plan to allow abortion and condom ads on television (but at least not for ten-year-olds!) (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1164901/As-teenage-pregnancies-soar-Governments-answer--abortion-ads-television.html)
The morning-after text: Girls of 11 will be able to send school nurse a message asking for contraceptive pills (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1164377/The-morning-text-Girls-11-able-send-school-nurse-message-asking-contraceptive-pills.html)
Waterways
03-26-2009, 09:55 AM
More poor journalism...
Abortion clinics are to be allowed to advertise on television and radio for the first time.
..
..
The proposals by the Broadcast Committee of Advertising Practice (BCAP) will give Britain among the world's most liberal broadcasting regimes on sexual health services.
There is a programme on tv next week. Sex education vs pornography which on the preview seems just like another excuse to show full frontals close on the heels of that programme that was done from a holiday resort beach where people went into a beach tent with their sexual problems, dropping their shorts in the process.
I shall be watching it of course for educational purposes only and to report back here :unibrow:
Pornography is best for mostly teaching you wrestling moves which you have to do to satisfy them in the bedroom.
Don't know wether liberial advertising is the way, these teens will be embarrassed to buy condoms. There going to feel too shamed possibly if they have to ask for pills or buying them.
I'd have no problem with liberial advertising like this though.
Haha, i remember in year 8 when we had Sex education in biology, we'd laugh loads and shout out rude words across the class room. Even more funnier when your seeing how sex works in diagram form.:PDT_Aliboronz_24:
Lol young Alfie got lucky!
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/03/26/exclusive-dna-tests-show-boy-dad-alfie-patten-is-not-the-daddy-115875-21227974/
Broliv
03-26-2009, 01:30 PM
I dunno Kev, i think its a good idea. You won't stop kids having sex. I know 30 year olds and 40 year olds who have told me they were active in their early teens.
Best thing to do is teach kids to use contraception than having a bunch of mums living on benefits with 8 kids.
Two more headlines that makes me wonder where it all went wrong:
Government plan to allow abortion and condom ads on television (but at least not for ten-year-olds!) (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1164901/As-teenage-pregnancies-soar-Governments-answer--abortion-ads-television.html)
The morning-after text: Girls of 11 will be able to send school nurse a message asking for contraceptive pills (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1164377/The-morning-text-Girls-11-able-send-school-nurse-message-asking-contraceptive-pills.html)
ChrisGeorge
03-26-2009, 02:17 PM
I dunno Kev, i think its a good idea. You won't stop kids having sex. I know 30 year olds and 40 year olds who have told me they were active in their early teens.
Best thing to do is teach kids to use contraception than having a bunch of mums living on benefits with 8 kids.
Hello Broliv
I agree with your statement. The plain fact is that teenagers are going to have sex. So it is preferable that they be educated and prepared to avoid unwanted pregnancies and getting sexually diseases than the alternative.
All the best
Chris
wsteve55
03-26-2009, 03:39 PM
Ha,Ha, Max,
good observation re' the wrestling moves, do the boxing exercises come later?:unibrow:
Ha,Ha, Max,
good observation re' the wrestling moves, do the boxing exercises come later?:unibrow:
Yeah.:PDT_Aliboronz_24:
There is a fundamental paradox at the heart of British society. Never before in history have our civic institutions laid such emphasis on compassion.
The eagerness to show empathy and concern is a central theme of the state, running through everything from the justice system to the Armed Forces.
Young offenders are given counselling rather than punishment. Our troops are sent overseas, not to fight, but to 'win hearts and minds'.
In large swathes of the public sector, the fashionable concept of 'emotional intelligence' has replaced efficiency as the central goal of the workforce.
Yet in the face of this sweeping tide of officially sanctioned benevolence, Britain is increasingly violent and degraded.
'The gentleness of English civilisation is its most marked characteristic,' George Orwell once wrote. How hollow those words sound today, as the shadows of aggression and disorder loom over our society. Almost any British town centre on a Friday or Saturday night is a maelstrom of drunken fury.
Despite the efforts of the Home Office to fiddle the figures, the statistics for assaults, muggings and rape have shown a consistent rise. The number of stabbings and shootings in London and other inner city areas are at a level that would have been utterly unthinkable at the beginning of the Sixties.
And the sense of a slide towards anarchy is not just reflected on the streets. It is also shown in the accelerating breakdown of the traditional family, with the result that increasing numbers of children are growing up in workless, fatherless households - a sure-fire recipe for dysfunction.
Record levels of drug abuse, teenage pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases, mass ignorance and welfare dependency are further indicators of this disturbing trend.
The state's focus on compassion, it would appear, is being met by mounting viciousness. Officialdom's supposed kindness is matched by deepening social nastiness.
But this is not a contradiction. It is precisely the Government's imposition of the creed of politicised sympathy, what might be called 'the tyranny of niceness', which has created the culture of disorder in our midst.
Aggression, violence and dysfunction are flourishing because the authorities are terrified to uphold the values that built our civilisation.
Police, courts, civil servants, probation officers and social workers are so anxious to parade their 'niceness' that they are reluctant to challenge destructive or selfish behaviour.
Obsessed with demonstrating boundless tolerance, they want only to support, not stigmatise.
The 'niceness' movement is achieving the very opposite of its professed aim.
The reluctance to punish wrong-doers allows them to escape responsibility for their actions, so discipline collapses and thuggery triumphs.
In the same way, the refusal to tackle negative aspects of other cultures has allowed oppressive Third World practices to be imported into British society, such as forced marriages and polygamy.
It is 'niceness' towards Islamist extremism that has allowed home-grown terrorism to take root within Britain.
But it is within schools that the disastrous consequences of the 'niceness' movement can be seen at their most graphic.
The high priests of this movement wanted to create a world where children never had to suffer any pain or punishment and where there was no such concept as failure.
Discipline and instruction were replaced by 'child-centred learning.' The authority of the teacher was destroyed. Boosting the self- esteem of pupils became the central purpose of the classroom, not the imparting of knowledge.
The results of these changes are all too obvious. Chaos prevails in too many of our schools. Violent disruption, once rare, has become routine. Teachers might have been given countless 'nice' anti-bullying policies, but bullying has never been more prevalent.
According to a recent poll by teaching union the NASUWT, an astonishing 97 per cent of primary school teachers said they have disruptive pupils in their classes.
Three-quarters, 74.4 per cent, claimed to have problems with physically aggressive children, while almost half noted that the disruptive behaviour of a minority was a daily occurrence. These statistics are remarkable, yet the common solution to such widespread poor conduct is just another example of the absurdity of the 'niceness' movement.
Instead of restoring the authority of teachers by giving them a range of tough sanctions to use against recalcitrant pupils, many primary schools employ 'Behaviour Support Assistants' in classes.
They take over the disruptive children and thus allow the tranquillity needed for a little actual teaching.
A difficult pupil might be asked to 'choose' whether he would be prepared to go back into the class and behave, otherwise he will be shepherded into a 'quiet room' without distractions where he can 'cool down'.
This enfeebled regime is all too symbolic of everything that has gone wrong in our schools.
The wayward pupils receive the message that they have nothing to fear from misbehaviour, as adults demonstrate they are too nervous to impose their own will.
Everything is a matter for negotiation rather than obedience-Yet the very idea of such negotiation is ridiculous, as if the adult and the young child were equal partners.
The pathos of nine and tenyearold boys being asked to 'make choices' about the behaviour, when they have yet to acquire the integrated mentality for that sophisticated act, is truly piteous to behold.
It is little wonder bewilderment and anger so often follow, deepening the cycle of disruption.
This is all a world away from the climate of calm that existed in schools before the social revolution of the late Sixties that ushered in the era of stateenforced 'niceness'.
I worked as a supply teacher in South London in those days. Then, children had defined places in a classroom.
There was no question of their choosing whether or not to behave because there was an order of conduct enforced by the teacher.
The teacher was a figure of respect and inspired a certain amount of fear, part of which depended on the possibility of physical punishment.
Although such punishment was seldom used, its very existence was part of a system which inculcated the values of discipline and responsibility into children.
In my time as a teacher, I had only one occasion to call for the cane, which was sent straight from the headmaster's office. There was no sense of cruelty as I prepared to strike the wayward pupil's hands.
Children had yet to be indoctrinated with the modern language of rights and understood very well that they lived under the rule of law.
The idea of meaningful punishment, even criticism, is now anathema in all too many schools. 'Niceness' requires pupils to be constantly praised - never challenged or upset. Exams are subjected to continual grade inflation to ensure pass marks are not too demanding.
We see the same trend in the nonsensical Government slogan: 'Excellence for all.' Yet if everyone is attaining excellence, what does average mean?
The same is true of the eagerness to abolish competitive sports, on the grounds that losing could damage children's self-esteem.
In a classic example of this pattern, the National College for School Leadership, the Government's training body for heads and senior teachers, has announced its support for a programme to 'establish positive relationships' between pupils and staff.
One proposal suggests that teachers should give children high-fives before lessons. Another says pupils should gather in a circle and applaud a classmate.
As part of this policy, the head teacher would say 'John, we appreciate you' and everyone cheers John. The aim, apparently, is to get children to 'relax and think: somebody believes in me'.
Andrew Day, a deputy head from Ealing, West London, says that in this way, 'they know you care'.
The truth is that this is the language of politicised virtue that predominates in state schooling, with the implication that compassion can be demonstrated only by enveloping pupils in the warm glow of endless appreciation - hardly a process that equips them for the real world.
A key element of this growing fashion for 'niceness' is the feminisation of the classroom, reflected in the fact the vast majority of the recruits to the teaching profession are women, particularly in the primary sector, where men are almost an extinct species.
Though the politically correct brigade likes to pretend there are no differences between the genders, the truth is that women are, in general, more given to feelings of compassion than men, preferring co-operation to discipline.
In this feminised educational order, girls have tended to thrive, but, correspondingly, many boys have opted out.
That is why male adolescents, especially those from deprived backgrounds or fatherless homes, are doing much worse. But the feminisation of education is just one aspect of the 'niceness' movement.
The same pattern can be found in the probation service, which is meant to guide offenders away from crime. Almost two-thirds of probation officers are women.
Similarly our courts, dominated by an increasingly feminised legal profession, seek to demonstrate their compassion by handing out lenient sentences and meaningless punishments 'in the community'.
Indeed, the 'nice' approach to crime means that offenders are increasingly treated as victims because of social exclusion or drug habits, deserving counselling rather than punishment.
This is simply a form of quasi-Marxism which holds that any attempts to impose order is, instead, oppression designed to uphold traditional hierarchies and exclude vulnerable groups on the basis of class, race or gender.
Even the Conservatives have sometimes fallen into this trap, most notably in 2002 when the then chairman, Theresa May, suggested that many people regarded the Tories as 'the nasty party' because they wanted to restrict immigration, uphold British sovereignty, punish criminals, maintain the family and encourage the work ethic.
But the emptiness of this approach has been exposed by the collapse of the traditional married family, which was once one of the bedrocks of society.
Non-judgmental 'niceness' has meant rejecting the conventions of stability, commitment and selfrestraint, while at the same time giving unconditional support through housing and benefits to unmarried mothers.
The result is the chaos we see all around us. Far from being 'nice', the wilful encouragement of family breakdown has condemned millions of women to poverty and exhaustion, since feckless men have been allowed to escape their responsibilities knowing that the state will perform the role of the surrogate paternal breadwinner.
In a perverse twist, the welfare state has provided incentives to serial parenthood, yet imposes tax burdens on married life.
Deprived of fathers, boys growing up in the inner city turn to gangs for some kind of structure in their fractured lives.
As the problem worsens, the Government resorts to desperate measures to make up for the social cohesion that the two-parent family used to provide. As a result, in the Nineties, we had the creaking, useless bureaucracy of the Child Support Agency, hopelessly trying to force men to pay up.
This was followed by a deluge of official gimmicks, such as ' parenting' classes or courses in ' relationship skills' - typically ineffectual 'nice' initiatives that cannot possibly serve as a substitute for the real understanding of humanity that is learnt within family life.
Instead of the gentler generation that the politicised compassion of this 'niceness' movement promised to usher in, we have only misery.
Ultimately, moral vices prosper having dressed themselves up as virtues. Niceness presents itself as benevolence, but often it is merely an evasion of the hard decisions that the realities of human nature require.
? Kenneth Minogue is Professor Emeritus at the Department of Government, London School of Economics. Adapted from an article in this month's Standpoint magazine.
Typical older generation thinking their time was better. The 60's probably left alot of unreported things and were probably messed up too, alot of those fake drug addict hippies could of messed up alot of their own kids with all the drugs they did.
Unthinkable my arse.
The teacher was a figure of respect and inspired a certain amount of fear, part of which depended on the possibility of physical punishment.
Yeah and that fear would stop them from reporting a teacher incase the teacher could of been in the wrong. Physical punishment wouldn't work know that kids are more agressive and would fight back, especially if their a teenager. I didn't lash out at any teachers even though i wish i did now but i outgrew them by the time i was 14-16 and could of well hurted them.
Teachers back then were probably just legalised bullies, same with adult figures. Alot of people from older times got compensation off councils for the abuse they suffered under so called respect figures in care homes for example so it wasn't all sunshine either.
Same with pig police, alot of them are just uneducated noobs with a badge to say they can abuse you.
Couldn't alot of this over kill amounts of authority/opression have caused alot of people to become so soft too though? No way would people have just become like the guy says just like that though!
Broliv
03-29-2009, 08:12 PM
Max i think he was right. I'm am not that much older than you and i even notice now how things have turned for the worse.
Prisons are seen as holiday camps (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1519561/Prison-with-a-holiday-camp-regime.html) To me you should not be able to leave a prison when you are sentenced. I could go on with examples but the guy who wrote the article was more eloquent.
Now i agree; i don't think things were as rosy as some people make them out to be pre-1950's. Some of crimes (that we today see as crimes such as paedophilia) went unpunished. Racism was rampant, social injustice also very prevalent at the time. And there was little choice. If you were born poor you probably died poor. There as no health system, possibly our greatest national creation. There was no national insurance as such, if you got ill and couldn't work then it was tough. If you couldn't get a job then it was tough.
We've made progress; there is more choice, If you are born into a poor family you may not die poor, there is a health system, a system where if you don't have a job you can get some money to survive on. But there is no end in sight to these re-forms to our society and its this ill-conceived meddling with our society over the years by successive governments which has brought us to this point, which is what the article was trying to say. People now have too much choice in things with the consequences of the choices non-distinguishable, too much reliance on the state and too little independence.
Max i think he was right. I'm am not that much older than you and i even notice now how things have turned for the worse.
Prisons are seen as holiday camps (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1519561/Prison-with-a-holiday-camp-regime.html) To me you should not be able to leave a prison when you are sentenced. I could go on with examples but the guy who wrote the article was more eloquent.
Now i agree; i don't think things were as rosy as some people make them out to be pre-1950's. Some of crimes (that we today see as crimes such as paedophilia) went unpunished. Racism was rampant, social injustice also very prevalent at the time. And there was little choice. If you were born poor you probably died poor. There as no health system, possibly our greatest national creation. There was no national insurance as such, if you got ill and couldn't work then it was tough. If you couldn't get a job then it was tough.
We've made progress; there is more choice, If you are born into a poor family you may not die poor, there is a health system, a system where if you don't have a job you can get some money to survive on. But there is no end in sight to these re-forms to our society and its this ill-conceived meddling with our society over the years by successive governments which has brought us to this point, which is what the article was trying to say. People now have too much choice in things with the consequences of the choices non-distinguishable, too much reliance on the state and too little independence.
I agree that prisons are a little overkill but they need activities while in there stll though. Other than chores and the exercise yards, they'd go crazy without enough things to do. Better them being occupied with something like certain activities than them smuggling drugs for example. The prison workers keeping these people in check don't need their jobs any worse.
Depends what you've done to be in prison too.
Aye and the progress made such as health care was thanks to old Labour and Clement Attlee who was the best Prime Minister Britain has had in my opinion. People needed that help and progress he made especially since how much the WW2 messed everyone up.
Don't know why the people after good social progress voted in right wing chumps though just because of a little recession. Economys might suffer at some peroids of time but they come and go and it's not like Britain was 3rd world. People get greedy and want more and they deserved Thatcher for voting her in.
Same with Americans, FDR was giving them progress and they messed that up. There piece of crap governments prefer sending tax dollars to the Israeli's to apartheid the Palestinians and steal their land than help their own ghetto ridden people. America is nothing more than a comedy show sometimes even thoug they have good people there i guess too just so i ain't labeling all of em and same with innocent israeli's.
People don't want true progress in things anyway like equally, most women i see only want equally when it suits them, same with certain people in ethnic/religious groups who are stupid when they moan about their sufferings too for example.
Then theres people who prefer to moan about multiculturalism over real issues when Britains been multicultural for centuries.
It's like things have to go in circles with progress, people get progress then ruin it then it'll come back and so on.
Plus if crime and stuff is worse now than ages ago then maybe the oldies messed up their own kids into going this way or sowed the seeds for it to happen but the older generations as usual like to get high and mighty about how better their time was. Maybe they deserve what they get some of them. Maybe they need to see the hate alot of them have cause and brought onto this earth.
There is a fundamental paradox at the heart of British society. Never before in history have our civic institutions laid such emphasis on compassion.
The eagerness to show empathy and concern is a central theme of the state, running through everything from the justice system to the Armed Forces.
Young offenders are given counselling rather than punishment. Our troops are sent overseas, not to fight, but to 'win hearts and minds'.
In large swathes of the public sector, the fashionable concept of 'emotional intelligence' has replaced efficiency as the central goal of the workforce.
Yet in the face of this sweeping tide of officially sanctioned benevolence, Britain is increasingly violent and degraded.
'The gentleness of English civilisation is its most marked characteristic,' George Orwell once wrote. How hollow those words sound today, as the shadows of aggression and disorder loom over our society. Almost any British town centre on a Friday or Saturday night is a maelstrom of drunken fury.
Despite the efforts of the Home Office to fiddle the figures, the statistics for assaults, muggings and rape have shown a consistent rise. The number of stabbings and shootings in London and other inner city areas are at a level that would have been utterly unthinkable at the beginning of the Sixties.
And the sense of a slide towards anarchy is not just reflected on the streets. It is also shown in the accelerating breakdown of the traditional family, with the result that increasing numbers of children are growing up in workless, fatherless households - a sure-fire recipe for dysfunction.
Record levels of drug abuse, teenage pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases, mass ignorance and welfare dependency are further indicators of this disturbing trend.
The state's focus on compassion, it would appear, is being met by mounting viciousness. Officialdom's supposed kindness is matched by deepening social nastiness.
But this is not a contradiction. It is precisely the Government's imposition of the creed of politicised sympathy, what might be called 'the tyranny of niceness', which has created the culture of disorder in our midst.
Aggression, violence and dysfunction are flourishing because the authorities are terrified to uphold the values that built our civilisation.
Police, courts, civil servants, probation officers and social workers are so anxious to parade their 'niceness' that they are reluctant to challenge destructive or selfish behaviour.
Obsessed with demonstrating boundless tolerance, they want only to support, not stigmatise.
The 'niceness' movement is achieving the very opposite of its professed aim.
The reluctance to punish wrong-doers allows them to escape responsibility for their actions, so discipline collapses and thuggery triumphs.
In the same way, the refusal to tackle negative aspects of other cultures has allowed oppressive Third World practices to be imported into British society, such as forced marriages and polygamy.
It is 'niceness' towards Islamist extremism that has allowed home-grown terrorism to take root within Britain.
But it is within schools that the disastrous consequences of the 'niceness' movement can be seen at their most graphic.
The high priests of this movement wanted to create a world where children never had to suffer any pain or punishment and where there was no such concept as failure.
Discipline and instruction were replaced by 'child-centred learning.' The authority of the teacher was destroyed. Boosting the self- esteem of pupils became the central purpose of the classroom, not the imparting of knowledge.
The results of these changes are all too obvious. Chaos prevails in too many of our schools. Violent disruption, once rare, has become routine. Teachers might have been given countless 'nice' anti-bullying policies, but bullying has never been more prevalent.
According to a recent poll by teaching union the NASUWT, an astonishing 97 per cent of primary school teachers said they have disruptive pupils in their classes.
Three-quarters, 74.4 per cent, claimed to have problems with physically aggressive children, while almost half noted that the disruptive behaviour of a minority was a daily occurrence. These statistics are remarkable, yet the common solution to such widespread poor conduct is just another example of the absurdity of the 'niceness' movement.
Instead of restoring the authority of teachers by giving them a range of tough sanctions to use against recalcitrant pupils, many primary schools employ 'Behaviour Support Assistants' in classes.
They take over the disruptive children and thus allow the tranquillity needed for a little actual teaching.
A difficult pupil might be asked to 'choose' whether he would be prepared to go back into the class and behave, otherwise he will be shepherded into a 'quiet room' without distractions where he can 'cool down'.
This enfeebled regime is all too symbolic of everything that has gone wrong in our schools.
The wayward pupils receive the message that they have nothing to fear from misbehaviour, as adults demonstrate they are too nervous to impose their own will.
Everything is a matter for negotiation rather than obedience-Yet the very idea of such negotiation is ridiculous, as if the adult and the young child were equal partners.
The pathos of nine and tenyearold boys being asked to 'make choices' about the behaviour, when they have yet to acquire the integrated mentality for that sophisticated act, is truly piteous to behold.
It is little wonder bewilderment and anger so often follow, deepening the cycle of disruption.
This is all a world away from the climate of calm that existed in schools before the social revolution of the late Sixties that ushered in the era of stateenforced 'niceness'.
I worked as a supply teacher in South London in those days. Then, children had defined places in a classroom.
There was no question of their choosing whether or not to behave because there was an order of conduct enforced by the teacher.
The teacher was a figure of respect and inspired a certain amount of fear, part of which depended on the possibility of physical punishment.
Although such punishment was seldom used, its very existence was part of a system which inculcated the values of discipline and responsibility into children.
In my time as a teacher, I had only one occasion to call for the cane, which was sent straight from the headmaster's office. There was no sense of cruelty as I prepared to strike the wayward pupil's hands.
Children had yet to be indoctrinated with the modern language of rights and understood very well that they lived under the rule of law.
The idea of meaningful punishment, even criticism, is now anathema in all too many schools. 'Niceness' requires pupils to be constantly praised - never challenged or upset. Exams are subjected to continual grade inflation to ensure pass marks are not too demanding.
We see the same trend in the nonsensical Government slogan: 'Excellence for all.' Yet if everyone is attaining excellence, what does average mean?
The same is true of the eagerness to abolish competitive sports, on the grounds that losing could damage children's self-esteem.
In a classic example of this pattern, the National College for School Leadership, the Government's training body for heads and senior teachers, has announced its support for a programme to 'establish positive relationships' between pupils and staff.
One proposal suggests that teachers should give children high-fives before lessons. Another says pupils should gather in a circle and applaud a classmate.
As part of this policy, the head teacher would say 'John, we appreciate you' and everyone cheers John. The aim, apparently, is to get children to 'relax and think: somebody believes in me'.
Andrew Day, a deputy head from Ealing, West London, says that in this way, 'they know you care'.
The truth is that this is the language of politicised virtue that predominates in state schooling, with the implication that compassion can be demonstrated only by enveloping pupils in the warm glow of endless appreciation - hardly a process that equips them for the real world.
A key element of this growing fashion for 'niceness' is the feminisation of the classroom, reflected in the fact the vast majority of the recruits to the teaching profession are women, particularly in the primary sector, where men are almost an extinct species.
Though the politically correct brigade likes to pretend there are no differences between the genders, the truth is that women are, in general, more given to feelings of compassion than men, preferring co-operation to discipline.
In this feminised educational order, girls have tended to thrive, but, correspondingly, many boys have opted out.
That is why male adolescents, especially those from deprived backgrounds or fatherless homes, are doing much worse. But the feminisation of education is just one aspect of the 'niceness' movement.
The same pattern can be found in the probation service, which is meant to guide offenders away from crime. Almost two-thirds of probation officers are women.
Similarly our courts, dominated by an increasingly feminised legal profession, seek to demonstrate their compassion by handing out lenient sentences and meaningless punishments 'in the community'.
Indeed, the 'nice' approach to crime means that offenders are increasingly treated as victims because of social exclusion or drug habits, deserving counselling rather than punishment.
This is simply a form of quasi-Marxism which holds that any attempts to impose order is, instead, oppression designed to uphold traditional hierarchies and exclude vulnerable groups on the basis of class, race or gender.
Even the Conservatives have sometimes fallen into this trap, most notably in 2002 when the then chairman, Theresa May, suggested that many people regarded the Tories as 'the nasty party' because they wanted to restrict immigration, uphold British sovereignty, punish criminals, maintain the family and encourage the work ethic.
But the emptiness of this approach has been exposed by the collapse of the traditional married family, which was once one of the bedrocks of society.
Non-judgmental 'niceness' has meant rejecting the conventions of stability, commitment and selfrestraint, while at the same time giving unconditional support through housing and benefits to unmarried mothers.
The result is the chaos we see all around us. Far from being 'nice', the wilful encouragement of family breakdown has condemned millions of women to poverty and exhaustion, since feckless men have been allowed to escape their responsibilities knowing that the state will perform the role of the surrogate paternal breadwinner.
In a perverse twist, the welfare state has provided incentives to serial parenthood, yet imposes tax burdens on married life.
Deprived of fathers, boys growing up in the inner city turn to gangs for some kind of structure in their fractured lives.
As the problem worsens, the Government resorts to desperate measures to make up for the social cohesion that the two-parent family used to provide. As a result, in the Nineties, we had the creaking, useless bureaucracy of the Child Support Agency, hopelessly trying to force men to pay up.
This was followed by a deluge of official gimmicks, such as ' parenting' classes or courses in ' relationship skills' - typically ineffectual 'nice' initiatives that cannot possibly serve as a substitute for the real understanding of humanity that is learnt within family life.
Instead of the gentler generation that the politicised compassion of this 'niceness' movement promised to usher in, we have only misery.
Ultimately, moral vices prosper having dressed themselves up as virtues. Niceness presents itself as benevolence, but often it is merely an evasion of the hard decisions that the realities of human nature require.
? Kenneth Minogue is Professor Emeritus at the Department of Government, London School of Economics. Adapted from an article in this month's Standpoint magazine.
Someone has finally put into words what most people, I know, have been saying for a long time.
Yet more headlines to be proud of:
A father-of-two was beaten to death by drunken thugs after police told him they were too busy to help.
James Straiton, 59, and his neighbours dialled 999 six times while the gang were threatening to smash their way into his flat.
But operators said the force was experiencing a ?high volume? of calls and suggested they call a non-emergency number.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1166810/Father-beaten-death-gang-police-ignore-999-calls-victim-neighbours.html
A Romanian career criminal who raped a young woman so he could be sent to a 'luxurious' British prison and get free lodgings and English lessons had his wish granted yesterday. more (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1167122/Romanian-raped-woman-live-luxury-British-jail-gets-wish.html)
A Romanian career criminal who raped a young woman so he could be sent to a 'luxurious' British prison and get free lodgings and English lessons had his wish granted yesterday. more (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1167122/Romanian-raped-woman-live-luxury-British-jail-gets-wish.html)
It beggers belief! I cannot make a comment,I might get locked up.
That's better.
http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews//tm_headline=merseyside-gun-criminals-plagued-by-police%26method=full%26objectid=23382304%26siteid= 50061-name_page.html
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