South Liverpool Kids Homes

[Paddy]

South Liverpool in the 60?s and 70?s had more care homes than any other part of Liverpool. The infamous Remand Home on Menlove Avenue has now been pulled down by the local authority. The cruelty that was allowed to go on in there was extreme and is well documented. Westfield on Greenback drive is another care home that had an awful reputation under the regime of a Mr. **** who was eventually prosecuted. However there were progressive establishments such as New Heys on Allerton road and Parkfield on Parkfield road Aigburth. The present Liverpool council stonewalls any attempt at compensating victims even though the council is insured. The Catholic Church won?t come out about their contribution to cruelty in the care system so a curtain has been pulled down. Many of the children are dead now and the survivors carry on yet no apology is ever forth coming. Writing on the echo forum about this topic the replies were about seeking self pity and looking for hand out?s Actually I would like to be more professional and just expose some of the cruelty that went on, because I suffered myself I don?t think that I should be prevented from offering a perspective. With chat shows in the 90?s sexual abuse scandals made the head lines and if you could prove you had been molested you got a few bob. Well some of us suffered severe beatings in those homes and that too can be painful and cause young people to mistrust the world. Well hoods won?t suffer in this topic as most of the homes were quite secluded and out of the way. As I said there were progressive regimes too and the happiest days of my childhood in care were spent at New Heys assessment centre and my foster home on Mersey Avenue.

If anyone has any positive contributions to this thread I would like to read them. The problem with people coming forward about Menlove Avenue is that it was a punitive establishment. Yet kids like myself went there because they had no where else to place us and it was there the assaults took place. When I see the lengths they go to cover up as in pulling the place down it makes me really angry. The beating of boys in that place went on for years and they still wont as a council apologize so how can they promote themselves as a caring community protective of children. I hope one day that this issue reaches the European courts and is treated as a human rights issue as it should be. I have seen too many broken lives to want to walk away from this. The hostility of Liberal Democrats to this issue is beyond me and other councils have gone out their way to try and put things right as in North Wales. I have spoken with the ex deputy chief constable of Merseyside on this issue and he was in agreement as to the serious nature of the allegations against Menlove Avenue. The Irish to fall in line with European human rights legislation offered victims a compensation package and a full apology from the state. The Liverpool kids that got shipped out to Australia have had an apology of the Pope so there is something in it! and it is not about looking for pity as the Liverpool Echo would have it. So if any others who suffered in the south Liverpool care homes want a say here?s the thread.

[kevin]

Paddy,
The topic has come up several times before, under various guises but often connected to discussions about St Gabriel's.
I grew up not too far from New Heys and had several friends from school living there. I was a frequent visitor in early to mid 60s and found it to be a quite happy place with contented kids - though I dare say there were exceptions.
Kevin

[Paddy]

Kevin I can assure you that I know about this topic and I also know about alot of the allegations. I knew all the places and they really do have reason to worry about what I know. There has also been false allegations and that doe's not help the victims. Made up accounts and also vamped up statements have been produced. Some claimants have had thousands for stays of a few weeks in care whilst others who spent their life in the system have recieved nothing. The problem for alot of claimants is that sexual abuse has been the cause celeb and violence against children relegated to a secondary status when both are as bad as one another. Yet the more outrageous allegations and often not substantiated have been accepted and awarded. The problem has been created by media interest in sexual abuse and to some extent the novelty has gone. NewHeys was a good place and the policy was to help kids find out their needs and also to move them on to better placements.

[wsteve55]

Errmm!?
I spent a couple of weeks at Woolton remand centre,many moons ago, and one of the favoured spots for "rehabilitation" was the showers,were there was no protection from a "good hiding",and I saw a couple of hardcases bite the proverbial dust there,as well as some much less deserving! One of the main protaganists,told us of his invitation to a garden party at Buck' palace, so it was obviously considered o.k.! I was lucky just to get the odd belt, but guess what, I didn't go back,so a lesson well learnt!

p.s I was innocent,but I found out that standing round with a chisel,and a hacksaw,in your pockets,near a magistrates home, was not a good idea:unibrow:

[Paddy]

I remember those showers, and there was a disused room connected with a recess in the wall where a tank had been it was all in the basement of the building. Three little twelve year old kids hid in the hole the idea being that when the rest went upstairs they would come out and pull the bars off and get out. Their desperation to get out caused them to overlook the fact that once upstairs they had a head count. When it was discovered that they were missing the overpaid bullies went down and found them. Those kids got a good hiding and what is more they were given the cane six times each on their bare backsides. I remember seeing the bluey black and red indentations on their behinds the work of a certain Mr. **** and his side kick Mr. ****. I had not been sent there by the courts and was left in there all summer while the new New Heys that had just opened got a place ready for me. I was amongst the first intake of the experimental home that let you climb trees and act like a kid. I think Menlove got away with a lot because it was a lock up place. I saw a lot of kids get beaten up and was eventually assaulted by a Mr. **** who?s reputation for doing kids was very well known

[Kev]

Paddy, can you avoid naming individuals. I'm unsure of the legalities and don't wish to be put in an unfortunate position in the near future.

Cheers

[Paddy]

Sorry Kev, if at anytime you feel uncomfortable with content don't hesitate to act, the Forum has to be protected. As far as the topic goe's it might be interesting to see a more informed debate on the issue as I feel that I can provide that and with substance. I will in future refrain from using the names of the meanies.

[Kev]

Thanks for the support mate :PDT11

[Paddy]

To be quite honest I felt a bit worried about making the post. I think that evenso we never all experience the normative family upbringings, and everyone has a right to talk about their lives, and belong to a community. However I will be very careful with content.

[georgieboy]

I was in a convent called Nazereth House it was in Ditton Widnes that would be around 1955-56 would like to hear from anyone else who spent time there, can,t remember much was only 6years old at the time, but don,t have pleaseant memories of the place, or if you know anybody that was there Iwould like to hear from you, thank,s

[Paddy]

Well Georgieboy I was not in that one but I was brought up in Nazareth House Crosby from the age of Ten months till I was nine and then thrown out. I too have unpleasant memories and a scar on the back of my head. If you at anytime make a complaint be very careful the Church is very powerful and they can hurt people. Also beware of any solicitors wanting to act some solicitors work very closely with the lib dems who are actively involved in covering up. It has now become very dangerous territory for individuals who complain. Group actions are best but even group actions can be infiltrated by false claimants. I hope you make a contact even if it is just to share your memories.

[mikemoate]

Paddy I think part of the difficulty in getting people at large and the powers that be to take this seriously was the widespread use of corporal punishment at that time both in family homes and mainstream schools. There is also the perception that for the most part kids who were in the homes were probably ne'er do wells who 'deserved what they got.' I know for sure that this latter perception is totally wrong.

But lets face it there remains a large and vociferous lobby even now who extoll the virtues of corporal punishment, point to its demise in respect of the behaviour exhibited by some kids now, and lobby for it's return. Of course what they don't see is the experience you suffered. People in positions of power who used the then acceptance of corporal punishment to create regimes of institutionalised violence in which kids were brutalised for nothing more than the self gratification of the brutes who dished it out.

[Ged]

Luckily I was never so unfortunate. I watched a film on the true stories movie channel over the Christmas about the 'Magdelene Sisters' home run by nuns for fallen girls, some of whom had done no more than become a nuicence to their families because they were good looking and possibly sexually active. Gladly, such places have since closed down as we've become a more aware society.

[Paddy]

Mikemoate you make a very good point and it is now a legal usage to point out that corporeal punishment was a social norm in the Fithties sixties and to some extent seventies. However what I saw at Menlove was beyond the punitive it was down right brutality. The labeling of children these days as anti social has become a norm the creation of a moral panic and the idea of a return to stricter parental control use of corporeal punishment at home and in schools is quite a popular mainstream. However I would challenge anyone to deny giving a four year old three stitches in the head is justifiable, and that is what they did to me.

[kevin]

Luckily I was never so unfortunate. I watched a film on the true stories movie channel over the Christmas about the 'Magdelene Sisters' home run by nuns for fallen girls, some of whom had done no more than become a nuicence to their families because they were good looking and possibly sexually active. Gladly, such places have since closed down as we've become a more aware society.

Saw it a few years ago and found it heartbreaking.

[Paddy]

Here?s a story about Menlove Avenue. While I was there they had a woodwork shop for teaching kids basic skills like making a coffee table just like woodwork in school. Anyway the woodwork teacher had a white moustache and I thought he looked like Mr. Pastry the comedian. Any road weighing him up which is what I did all the time with adults, I thought that he seemed quiet and because he was a tradesman he would most likely be okay and better than the other brutes. How wrong I was. Some older lads who were on remand to go before a court stole a chisel and took out the bars of the dormitory window and fled into the night. They were eventually caught and brought back, now Mr. Pastry came into his force and waded in against those boys. They actually bragged about how they gave them a good hiding and how Mr. Pastry took his revenge for stealing his Chisel as a twelve year old boy I saw them as animals not men. I had trouble after that trusting grown ups as I always had an image of craftsmen being caring like watchmakers and trustful considerate people. Did his chisel mean that much to him?

[wsteve55]

Hi Paddy,
you said you were at Nazareth house, so I wondered around what period, and which school you went to? I went to St. Peter & Paul's, and St. Bedes, which was at the back, and knew a couple of kids from there!

[Partsky]

Paddy, I have the greatest sympathy for your situation. I am quite sure that you have got on with your life but some things leave scars, as you know so well. This often goes down the line to the present day. My Mother was placed in the care of Nuns in I believe Leyfield House, which is now demolished, but stood near or on the site of Cardinal Heenan School in West Derby (I have tried hard to find info on this place but have only once found a fleeting reference to it, on another site). Her Mother had died, and in those days (the 30s) Motherless children were often placed in "care". The experience stayed with her all her adult life, until the day she died. Its not too dramatic to say her experience effected all of us as. I still cant drive past the site without getting upset at her experiences and feel badly that I cannot right the wrongs. Its not always about money and indeed it is justice to bring those responsible for mistreating children to justice. Sadly, the word justice has been debased by some people but the majority of people who did have bad preventable experiences deserve to have their voice heard. How else can we improve the care system for future generations if you are not held accountable for your actions. Happily, I have during my adult life worked with many social workers and home managers who have tried really hard to make decent lives for their charges so, obviously, many people have tried to bring about changes for the better.

Thank God there is a bit more support for children and their parents now Paddy, although the system is still far from perfect. Best of luck to you.

[Paddy]

Thanks for that supportive post partsky. I think that one of the big stumbling blocks when dealing with the Catholic church is their strength in the Liverpool community, or if you like their power. I made a statement in the past where I said that I thought that the religious upbringing they gave me as a child was unnatural and severe. When I was a boy in Crosby we got up at half past six in the morning and got ready for church. That was seven days a week. If you wet the bed as some did including myself from time to time then you had a cold bath?s as punishment for doing so, the fear of having a cold bath induced you to do it more, that I am sure of. Once ready we all went to mass and sometimes there would be coffins in the church. If it was clergy the tops were left off. The mass was Latin and lasted about half an hour except on Sundays when it was later and lasted about an hour. After mass we had breakfast and went to School on weekdays. Returning from school we had a light tea and then went to Rosary that was everyday. After Rosary that lasted about an hour we had tea. Then it was evening prayers after an hour?s television, the nuns had a blanket that they kept by the television to prevent the girls from seeing any kissing. The last prayers of the day were said while we knelt on the floor and we had to say over and over again while we thumped our chests ?Through my fault through my fault, through my own grievous fault? we continually repeated that chant. Then it was bed time and you said your night prayers. When you got into bed you crossed your arms in the form of Saint Theresa in case you died in the night. Saturday was different and you had a slightly longer Mass. Then after breakfast we went to the Odeon, our nickname was the Nazi?s because we came from Nazareth house and when you got to the pictures you went up to the balcony and said Nazi house and it was free. We walked there and back in two?s most weeks and strict watch was kept on our movements. In the afternoon we got pocket money I got sixpence and we walked in two?s to South road. When we got back we had Rosary and then supper followed by night prayers. Sunday was the strictest day. The Mass was later but lasted a lot longer over an hour. Then after breakfast and your chores it was Religious instruction which was usually quite graphic all about the devil and going to Hell. Then it was dinner time and then after a period of recreation it was Benediction a service that lasted about three quarters of an hour. Then tea then more night prayers then bed with your arms folded in the form of Saint Theresa. I would like to suggest that it wasn?t a good way to treat kids.:PDT_Xtremez_12:

[Paddy]

Wsteve55 yes I went to St Peter and Pauls from about 59-63 I had a teacher called Miss Nicholas and we sometimes used the Hall at the back of Saint Peter and Pauls church.

[wsteve55]

Well Paddy,
looks like I missed you,as I was there(in a foster home) '66 to'68, so our paths didn't cross, that time,at least!:nod:

[georgieboy]

HI Paddy I read your ( a day in the life ) I could almost have written it word for word myself, we had all the religious instruction, benediction, oh and you forgot( the stations of the cross ) we had to sleep with our arms crossed also, we had to walk to Warrington from Widnes to the pictures on Saturdays in a line holding the back of the kids coat in front of you, that was more than 50 years ago , and I am still troubled by the whole experiance, I can still remember the smell of the wax that we polished the floors with, anyway Paddy we probobly had very similar experiances Take Care, bye for now Gb

[Paddy]

I think it is always dangerous ground when you talk about the Catholic institutions they are very aware of their position as being the moral guardians of the city. When I got my files off Liverpool social Services I read with interest the reports made on my infancy. The system was to make quarterly reports after visits to the convent. Myself and my brothers and sisters are always described as attractive and intelligent children. On each report sheet there is a column to describe the health of the child so if you had the measles or chicken pox it would be recorded. If I put my hand up to the back of my head there?s a small scar. I received three stitches to a head wound whilst in the nursery. I remember thinking that stitches were stars and that the stretcher they put me on to stitch me up was an Ironing board. I also remember that the injury was caused by a very forceful push against a sink. The incident and record of the injury has been omitted from the records. There is also other incidents that have not been recorded or taken out. So you can only suspect that they actively cover up on such things.

[teresamariaf]

Paddy,
The topic has come up several times before, under various guises but often connected to discussions about St Gabriel's.
I grew up not too far from New Heys and had several friends from school living there. I was a frequent visitor in early to mid 60s and found it to be a quite happy place with contented kids - though I dare say there were exceptions.
Kevin

My brother was in St.gabriels (Knolle park), in the 50s My mothers was in hospital with TB and my younger brothers taken into care, my younger brother, was placed on a bunk bed, when he was two, he fell out of the bed, and the nuns placed him back in bed, my mum was allowed out on a rare visit the next day to the kids in knolle park, she noticed that my brother could not sit up and kept fallen to the side and backwards and insisted her saw a doctor, he was taken to alder hey and he had broken his back, he was hospitalised for two years strapped to a bed in alder hey, he then had to where calapers on his legs untill his teens, he never got a sorry or anything from anyone, he still suffers with his back today

[Paddy]

They did cover up on injuries I have a scar on the back of my head. I got three stitches in a head wound in the nursery at Nazareth house I have the records from my nusery days and it is not reported. The cause of the head wound was an assault.

[lindylou]

These things I read about childrens homes - it's heartbreaking some of things that has gone on. :disgust:

[ItsaZappathing]

Thankfully I was never unfortunate enough to end up in such places but...Wow,reading these posts makes me realise how bad these places where.
Paddy,you are one fighter that's for sure.:PDT11

[wsteve55]

I've got to say though,that it wasn't all bad,I met some really nice people,on my journey through socialservice land!:nod:

[ItsaZappathing]

I've got to say though,that it wasn't all bad,I met some really nice people,on my journey through socialservice land!:nod:

Maybe not Steve but much respect to those,such as yourself who managed to lead a "normal" life after being pushed around and put in such places. I bet many tears were shed on many occassions. :PDT_Xtremez_42:

[wsteve55]

Ha, the ironic thing was,my "normal" life ended, when I went back home!(I use the term "home" very loosely:nod:)

[clarkecurator]

What can I say, I was in childcare in the sixties, 1963 in fact, I was at New Hayes and I have nothing but praise for John Cross and his staff. I was also at Fernlea childrens home in Quarry st. By any strecth of the imagination I was a handfull I think Frank Gorman was in charge, he did give me the odd clatter but I have to admit I derserved it. From where I came from the place was great. If it had not been for men like Mr Gorman and John Cross I dread to think what may have become of me. I am now nearly sixty and look back on that time with fondness. P.S. John Cross is still alive and I like to think of him as a very good friend. Mervin Clarke, Co Cork Ireland.

[Blackadder]

Part 1 THE LOCKING AWAY OF A SCALLYWAG FROM BIRKENHEAD

I was a 12 year old scallywag from Birkenhead in 1963 and was sent away for 3 years for nicking stuff and being a pain in the ass. First 8 weeks were spent at a remand centre in Menlove Avenue, I believe John Lennon used to live just up the road. A large house on Menlove Avenue, it was an old stone building surrounded by trees up a winding drive to the front door. I cried myself to sleep for the first week. This was the start of a 3 year reform in order to make me learn right from wrong, I knew what I did was wrong, but what they did to me was worse and unforgivable.

After 8 weeks in the Menlove Avenue's House of Hell it was off to the Redbank assessment centre Newton-le-Willows for an assessment then after about 3 months I was sent to Greystone Heath near Penketh for Sankey, a short walk to Fiddlers Ferry. I believe many of the house master's were prosecuted in the late 80's or was it early 90's for child molestation and child abuse. Oh those good old days of hell at Greystone Heath, I spent many a day with a large bruise to my left and right cheek, but it was alright, the senior lads were allowed to administer punches if you spoke or did not stand up straight or sit back in your chair at meal time.

There were four Houses at Greystone Heath, 1-26 Chester, 27-52 Derby, 53-78 Lancaster and 79-104 York, there were 104 youngsters at the school, each House had 26 boys, I think I was number 33 and was with the House of Derby. Each house had a senior boy who used to go up and down the line punching you in the face if you had been, let say, breaking their rules, if he did not fancy the job he would get someone within the House to administer the punishment. eg If you had done something wrong during breakfast, you may have incurred a penalty of just 3 punches, when all houses were lined up in the yard after breakfast, that is when you received the punches. The members of the staff let this go on all the time. If I was a girl I would not have to buy rouge as my cheeks were always rouge in colour. I am now 58 years old.

Part 2 will continue next time.

[Blackadder]

[FONT="Times New Roman"]
Part 1 THE LOCKING AWAY OF A SCALLYWAG FROM BIRKENHEAD

I was a 12 year old scallywag from Birkenhead in 1963 and was sent away for 3 years for nicking stuff and being a pain in the ass. First 8 weeks were spent at a remand centre in Menlove Avenue, I believe John Lennon used to live just up the road. A large house on Menlove Avenue, it was an old stone building surrounded by trees up a winding drive to the front door. I cried myself to sleep for the first week. This was the start of a 3 year reform in order to make me learn right from wrong, I knew what I did was wrong, but what they did to me was worse and unforgivable.

After 8 weeks in the Menlove Avenue's House of Hell it was off to the Redbank assessment centre Newton-le-Willows for an assessment then after about 3 months I was sent to Greystone Heath near Penketh for Sankey, a short walk to Fiddlers Ferry. I believe many of the house master's were prosecuted in the late 80's or was it early 90's for child molestation and child abuse. Oh those good old days of hell at Greystone Heath, I spent many a day with a large bruise to my left and right cheek, but it was alright, the senior lads were allowed to administer punches if you spoke or did not stand up straight or sit back in your chair at meal time.

There were four Houses at Greystone Heath, 1-26 Chester, 27-52 Derby, 53-78 Lancaster and 79-104 York, there were 104 youngsters at the school, each House had 26 boys, I think I was number 33 and was with the House of Derby. Each house had a senior boy who used to go up and down the line punching you in the face if you had been, let say, breaking their rules, if he did not fancy the job he would get someone within the House to administer the punishment. eg If you had done something wrong during breakfast, you may have incurred a penalty of just 3 punches, when all houses were lined up in the yard after breakfast, that is when you received the punches. The members of the staff let this go on all the time. I was forever permanently bruised.

[BOOTZ]

My brother was in St.gabriels (Knolle park), in the 50s My mothers was in hospital with TB and my younger brothers taken into care, my younger brother, was placed on a bunk bed, when he was two, he fell out of the bed, and the nuns placed him back in bed, my mum was allowed out on a rare visit the next day to the kids in knolle park, she noticed that my brother could not sit up and kept fallen to the side and backwards and insisted her saw a doctor, he was taken to alder hey and he had broken his back, he was hospitalised for two years strapped to a bed in alder hey, he then had to where calapers on his legs untill his teens, he never got a sorry or anything from anyone, he still suffers with his back today

:ninja:

[BOOTZ]

n e body from st gabs leave message

[BOOTZ]

st gabrials knolle park?:ninja:

[hmtmaj]

[FONT="Times New Roman"]
Part 1 THE LOCKING AWAY OF A SCALLYWAG FROM BIRKENHEAD

I was a 12 year old scallywag from Birkenhead in 1963 and was sent away for 3 years for nicking stuff and being a pain in the ass. First 8 weeks were spent at a remand centre in Menlove Avenue, I believe John Lennon used to live just up the road. A large house on Menlove Avenue, it was an old stone building surrounded by trees up a winding drive to the front door. I cried myself to sleep for the first week. This was the start of a 3 year reform in order to make me learn right from wrong, I knew what I did was wrong, but what they did to me was worse and unforgivable.

After 8 weeks in the Menlove Avenue's House of Hell it was off to the Redbank assessment centre Newton-le-Willows for an assessment then after about 3 months I was sent to Greystone Heath near Penketh for Sankey, a short walk to Fiddlers Ferry. I believe many of the house master's were prosecuted in the late 80's or was it early 90's for child molestation and child abuse. Oh those good old days of hell at Greystone Heath, I spent many a day with a large bruise to my left and right cheek, but it was alright, the senior lads were allowed to administer punches if you spoke or did not stand up straight or sit back in your chair at meal time.

There were four Houses at Greystone Heath, 1-26 Chester, 27-52 Derby, 53-78 Lancaster and 79-104 York, there were 104 youngsters at the school, each House had 26 boys, I think I was number 33 and was with the House of Derby. Each house had a senior boy who used to go up and down the line punching you in the face if you had been, let say, breaking their rules, if he did not fancy the job he would get someone within the House to administer the punishment. eg If you had done something wrong during breakfast, you may have incurred a penalty of just 3 punches, when all houses were lined up in the yard after breakfast, that is when you received the punches. The members of the staff let this go on all the time. I was forever permanently bruised.

It would be nice to meet some of these bullies in later life, to get your own back, I know I would.

[naked lilac]

What a disheartening story... Glad someone told it finally... You're 58, and still bruised with these sad memories of bullies.. Bullies discust me.. I have been bullied myself, but not to that extent... Even today, find a few in the workplace.. But, I don't allow it upon myself.. and even though I am a tiny woman.. I can verbally hold my own.. Out smart them, ya might say...

I am sure, some of the bullies must be still alive.. Would be interesting to find out what became of them.. Writing your memorys in a book form and delivering it to their families would be priceless...

[bennyboy]

yesterday i took my dad back to liverpool for the first time since he moved away when he joined the army at 17.I know very little of my dads history but as soon as we hit toxteth my very hard dad become very emotional going back to the place he lived when he was born eversley avenue.but he said he spent most of his child life at fern lea childrens home.so we drove to wootle and the walls around the old home are still there he remembers the quarry and an old tyre factory and playing with an old bike frame down the hill to the bottom where people would look out on the corners as the bike had no brakes lol.i read what paddy has blogged about the underlying problems at these homes but my dad said it was the best times of his life.he had a friend whos dad worked at jacobs called kevin we walked up and down the street bringing back the childhood he has never ever told me.but now im 25 and have a child myself.i feel it is important in keeping memories for future generations like myself.ive never seen a picture of my dad under 25.he means the world to me and after a very good day we went to goodison to watch the toffees thrash the mancs!!!if anyone knew my dad his name was hassen but he said he was also called harry and malcolm.always wetting the bed lol.and used to go out with a girl jennifer i think her name was opposite the home.any reply would mean the world to me,but a pic would be awesome.ps it was late 60-70s and he went to gateacre

[Oudeis]

Well Bennyboy you had yourselves a good day out. While you are waiting for what you have said to sink-in. You and your dad could many happy hours on a picture and information site of one of our members (ged)...

http://inacityliving.piczo.com/?cr=7

The site id undergoing maintenance at the moment, but will soon be back up.

[book ripper]

Mervin I was at NH in the Early 60's I remember John Cross , he seemed to be a very kind and understanding man, he had a Siamiese cat if i remember correctlly. if he is still alive please post me privately. I am living in Australia