City Boundary Signs - Backfire

[Kev]

A SCHEME to put traditional signs at the boundaries of Liverpool's oldest communities has backfired - leaving families in one upmarket area demading their removal.

Residents in Riverside Drive complained after signs declaring it to be in Dingle, Toxteth and Aigburth were put up within a mile of each other.

Residents on the new estates, created on the site of the International Garden Festival, had demanded the signs should be taken now and re-located.

But council leaders say they have decided against removing the signs until the geographical conundrum is resolved, despite protests that the sign for Dingle is "not even in Dingle".

Last night, Cllr Peter Allen, of St Michael's ward, insisted the signs had not been correctly positioned.

He said: "These signs are absolute nonsense, there's not much point in having signs in the wrong place. I'm annoyed with the officers and, obviously, I'd prefer it if the signs were removed."

Mark Smith, the council's highways and environment officer, said: "We did conduct a wide consultation before the signs were erected and we think they are correctly placed.

"However, we are aware there are still outstanding issues. The signs are not absolutely set in stone and we are happy to listen to the public to get it right."

The council's executive board has decided to listen to councillors' concerns about all disputed signs throughout Liverpool, but in the meantime the board declined to remove the offending markers for the Aigburth and Dingle areas.

Cllr John Coyne, who also represents St Michael's ward, said: "The promise by the executive board is less than we hoped for, but we will work with the review as best we can."

Andrea Spyropoulos, chairwoman of the Riverside Action Group, said residents were upset their area had been wrongly signposted.

She said: "It was quite a shock when they put the signs up. Your postcode determines how much tax you pay and the postcode in Dingle is L3, whereas here is L17.

"It's not because of snobbery, my sister lives in the Dingle and she doesn't consider her area to be Riverside either. It wouldn't harm anybody to change the signs."

Ms Spyropoulos was also concerned the signs would make visitors lose their way.

She said: "I have a terrible sense of direction and if I didn't know the area I'd be confused. We heard nothing about the signs before they went up, but if we had we would have told the council to put them in more sensible places."

The three disputed signs, all located in St Michael's ward, were put up as part of the council's scheme to mark Liverpool's different districts.

However, there is little documentation of Dingle's historical boundary so the sites were chosen on the advice of Joseph Rourke, a member of Highways Management and local historian.

[taffy]

Quote
The three disputed signs, all located in St Michael's ward, were put up as part of the council's scheme to mark Liverpool's different districts. End quote

Of course all this area is actually in Toxteth Park. Now there's a thought for the locals

[theninesisters]

The council don't know their arse from their elbow. At the bottom of our road is a sign for Gateacre even though I can show original boundary lines for Childwall.

A more thoughtful approach could be putting up signs in the old fashioned term for villages:

Merry Childow - Childwall
Hale's Wood - Halewood
Tew Brook - Tuebrook

And so on....

[PhilipG]

It's true that the Dingle never had defined boundaries, but it's a geographical feature (the bed of a long-lost stream), and unfortunately it can't be ignored because of snob value. :Colorz_Grey_PDT_16:
If you live close to the site of the Festival Hall, it's Dingle, as that's where the stream joined the Mersey.

They should put their addresses as Dingle, Toxteth Park, and be proud. :celb (23):

[SteH]

Many of the signs to me seem to be defined along the ward boudaries

[Ged]

One of the biggest jokes is that there is an Everton sign down by Toys R Us on Gt Howard st not far from the King Eddy pub. Everton was never there and Vauxhall, which everyone from that area associates with doesn't even get recognition as an area.

[wallasey]

Vauxhall, which everyone from that area associates with doesn't even get recognition as an area.

Not so! On County Road/Barlow Road Junction, there is a boundry sign with "Vauxhall" on it! Strangly there isn't a sign on the A59 telling you when you pass from Vauxhall into Everton; this is slightly worrying as on Scottie Road (heading away from Leeds Street) the district confirmation sign say's "Everton". What's going on??

[Ged]

If it's on County Road (and I take it you mean Barlow Lane) then that too is in the wrong place?

[PhilipG]

Apparently Toxteth starts right outside the front door of the Nightingale Hotel at the beginning of Princes Road!

And has anyone noticed that they get the postcode wrong on some street names?
The end of Ullet Road by Smithdown Road says L8 instead of L17.
The Elms by Ullet Road was L7 for about a year before it was corrected.

[SteH]

One of the biggest jokes is that there is an Everton sign down by Toys R Us on Gt Howard st not far from the King Eddy pub. Everton was never there and Vauxhall, which everyone from that area associates with doesn't even get recognition as an area.

Which is what I was getting at in my post, there is no such council ward as Vauxhall but instead the area is incorporated into the Everton and Kirkdale wards.

[taffy]

Apparently Toxteth starts right outside the front door of the Nightingale Hotel at the beginning of Princes Road!

And has anyone noticed that they get the postcode wrong on some street names?
The end of Ullet Road by Smithdown Road says L8 instead of L17.
The Elms by Ullet Road was L7 for about a year before it was corrected.

The Ullet Rd L8 sign by Smithdown Rd is of course the original post code before it was changed to L17. They simply have not got around to changing it. other Ullet Rd L8 signs exist further along towards Aigburth Rd. of course the L17 area of the Dingle once had an L8 post code until they developed Promenade Gdns etc and then it was changed to L17. Now of course the locals think this is Aigburth. Post codes simply reflect post office sorting and delivery schedules and have no relationship to urban districts such as Toxteth

[PhilipG]

The Ullet Rd L8 sign by Smithdown Rd is of course the original post code before it was changed to L17. They simply have not got around to changing it. other Ullet Rd L8 signs exist further along towards Aigburth Rd. of course the L17 area of the Dingle once had an L8 post code until they developed Promenade Gdns etc and then it was changed to L17. Now of course the locals think this is Aigburth. Post codes simply reflect post office sorting and delivery schedules and have no relationship to urban districts such as Toxteth

They have changed it - it's a new one.
The Dingle end is L8, but not Smithdown Road end - it was L17 in the 1970s when I lived opposite Lathbury Lane.

[taffy]

They have changed it - it's a new one.
The Dingle end is L8, but not Smithdown Road end - it was L17 in the 1970s when I lived opposite Lathbury Lane.

I think Ullet Rd at Smithdown Rd was L8 in the 1960s. I only passed that way a few days ago. I could have sworn the old L8 Ullet Rd sign near Smithdown Rd was still there. I'll have to check.

[Ged]

Which is what I was getting at in my post, there is no such council ward as Vauxhall but instead the area is incorporated into the Everton and Kirkdale wards.

I've just noticed that the new A-Z's show Vauxhall as an area now.

[marky]

I passed that Ullet Rd/Smithdown Rd sign today...it's a modern cheap thin metal design. Ullet Road L8.

[Gerard]

So the Bottom of Scottie Road is in Everton Eh..Mmmm !!!

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/gedfleming/DSC00330.jpg

[Max]

A SCHEME to put traditional signs at the boundaries of Liverpool's oldest communities has backfired - leaving families in one upmarket area demading their removal.

Residents in Riverside Drive complained after signs declaring it to be in Dingle, Toxteth and Aigburth were put up within a mile of each other.

Residents on the new estates, created on the site of the International Garden Festival, had demanded the signs should be taken now and re-located.

But council leaders say they have decided against removing the signs until the geographical conundrum is resolved, despite protests that the sign for Dingle is "not even in Dingle".

Last night, Cllr Peter Allen, of St Michael's ward, insisted the signs had not been correctly positioned.

He said: "These signs are absolute nonsense, there's not much point in having signs in the wrong place. I'm annoyed with the officers and, obviously, I'd prefer it if the signs were removed."

Mark Smith, the council's highways and environment officer, said: "We did conduct a wide consultation before the signs were erected and we think they are correctly placed.

"However, we are aware there are still outstanding issues. The signs are not absolutely set in stone and we are happy to listen to the public to get it right."

The council's executive board has decided to listen to councillors' concerns about all disputed signs throughout Liverpool, but in the meantime the board declined to remove the offending markers for the Aigburth and Dingle areas.

Cllr John Coyne, who also represents St Michael's ward, said: "The promise by the executive board is less than we hoped for, but we will work with the review as best we can."

Andrea Spyropoulos, chairwoman of the Riverside Action Group, said residents were upset their area had been wrongly signposted.

She said: "It was quite a shock when they put the signs up. Your postcode determines how much tax you pay and the postcode in Dingle is L3, whereas here is L17.

"It's not because of snobbery, my sister lives in the Dingle and she doesn't consider her area to be Riverside either. It wouldn't harm anybody to change the signs."

Ms Spyropoulos was also concerned the signs would make visitors lose their way.

She said: "I have a terrible sense of direction and if I didn't know the area I'd be confused. We heard nothing about the signs before they went up, but if we had we would have told the council to put them in more sensible places."

The three disputed signs, all located in St Michael's ward, were put up as part of the council's scheme to mark Liverpool's different districts.

However, there is little documentation of Dingle's historical boundary so the sites were chosen on the advice of Joseph Rourke, a member of Highways Management and local historian.

Isn't Otterspool an area? Part of that Garden Festival area has a Dingle Esplanade.

[wallasey]

So the Bottom of Scottie Road is in Everton Eh..Mmmm !!!

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/gedfleming/DSC00330.jpg

That is one of the signs which gets contradicted when travelling down County Road as there is one which says "Kirkdale". You never see one for Everton though!

Actually, although this may sound daft, which district is Scottie and Great Homer Street in? I am planning on updating Flickr with some images but I don't want to write the wrong district! In the past I have said that Scottie is in Vauxhall (as that is what Scottie Press says on their website) but that isn't strictly a reconised district is it? I have a rather dated map claiming that Westmister Road is in "Melrose" and that Hall Lane is in Smithdown.

Toxteth doesn't even get a mention as it is slit between Abercromby, Granby , Arundel and possibly even Aigburth depending on whatyou think is Aigburth and what you think is Toxteth.

Have taken photos but if you can wait untill Friday, I can get some proper scans! It's not a A-Z but a Official Liverpool Street Plan from 1986!

[Gerard]

That is one of the signs which gets contradicted when travelling down County Road as there is one which says "Kirkdale". You never see one for Everton though!

Actually, although this may sound daft, which district is Scottie and Great Homer Street in? I am planning on updating Flickr with some images but I don't want to write the wrong district! In the past I have said that Scottie is in Vauxhall (as that is what Scottie Press says on their website) but that isn't strictly a reconised district is it? I have a rather dated map claiming that Westmister Road is in "Melrose" and that Hall Lane is in Smithdown.

Toxteth doesn't even get a mention as it is slit between Abercromby, Granby , Arundel and possibly even Aigburth depending on whatyou think is Aigburth and what you think is Toxteth.

Have taken photos but if you can wait untill Friday, I can get some proper scans! It's not a A-Z but a Official Liverpool Street Plan from 1986!


My own opinion Wallasey is that Gt Homer St is in the Vauxhall District along with Scottie Rd,Im not having it that the bottom of Scottie Rd is in Everton.

[steveb]

Yes strange the weay places move overnight.

Have a look here

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/source.asp?pageno=1&pubid=289

[wallasey]

My own opinion Wallasey is that Gt Homer St is in the Vauxhall District along with Scottie Rd,Im not having it that the bottom of Scottie Rd is in Everton.

Just noticed after going through me 100 odd images of the "Vauxhall" area that on the corner of Stanley Road and Lambeth Road, there is a sign saying "Everton" going city bound! That is strange!

http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/2032/fgtik7.jpg

To be honest, I wouldn't have said that Everton extended below Netherfield Road but that's just me.

Thanks for your info as to where Great Homer Street is; you might have noticed I had some trouble over on the Aigburth thread so I ma now somewhat weary of saying that a road is in one place when infact it is in another!

EDIT: Just a quickie! Where is the boundary between Vauxhall and Kirkdale? I am starting to write images for Westminister Road you see!

[marky]

Dacre St.
This marks the divide between Liverpool (Kirkdale) and Sefton (Bootle) along the 'dock road'. An oldish sign, that seems to have escaped being replaced.

[taffy]

My own opinion Wallasey is that Gt Homer St is in the Vauxhall District along with Scottie Rd,Im not having it that the bottom of Scottie Rd is in Everton.

This is the same problem as the Toxteth and Wavertree boundaries that have come up on this forum. Everton was originally a township in the parish of Walton on the Hill. As such its boundaries have been defined for a very long time. With the urbanisation of the area from the late 18th C onwards, these boundaries became blurred and new subdistricts developed. I'll have to look up my old maps to relate Everton township's boundaries to present day streets. One source of confusion miight be that the old council Everton ward boundaries extended beyond the Everton township boundaries. This is what happened in Toxteth Park where the Dingle ward extended way beyond the area of the Dingle itself which really started at the bottom of Park Rd near the Ancient Chapel of Toxteth. Hence also the street name Dingle Mount which implies it was above the Dingle.

[Ged]

I would say that Gerard is right that there's no way that the bottom or even the top end of Scottie is in Everton. I'd also say Wallasey is correct in that Everton doesn't extend any further West than Netherfield Road. Where that Everton sign is by the Stanley chippy, locals would say it is still Kirkdale because Boundary street was the old boundary with Kirkdale.

[taffy]

I would say that Gerard is right that there's no way that the bottom or even the top end of Scottie is in Everton. I'd also say Wallasey is correct in that Everton doesn't extend any further West than Netherfield Road. Where that Everton sign is by the Stanley chippy, locals would say it is still Kirkdale because Boundary street was the old boundary with Kirkdale.

I've just had a look at my township boundary maps for the Everton area. The original township boundaries in the Gt Homer st area were field boundaries. These were not in a straight line and hovered back and fro across what became Gt Homer St. ( see Gage's 1836 map) Indeed one part of Gt Homer St itself was called Boundary St at one time. With the continued urbanisation of the area, Gt Homer St itself became the Everton Boundary with Liverpool.

So yes Scotland Rd was not in the township of Everton. Interestingly though in the 1850s the area north of the present Boundary St was classed as Everton Ward. The area to the south was called Scotland Ward. As the population grew, these ward names changed

[Ged]

Good stuff Taffy.