Cruise Ship Terminal

[ChrisO]

My apologies if this has been discussed before, but todays Guardian carried an article about the so-called 'Costa Metallica' at Langton Dock. Apparantly, this mountain of scrap metal has resulted in a travel company- TUI Travel- withdrawing a programme of 30 cruises from Liverpool after a couple of trials because the tourists didn't approve of the surroundings at Langton ie. the huge mound of scrap metal, when they disembarked, meaning a loss of ?4.5m in port fees. According to the travel company, they can't use the Pier Head because it doesn't have any customs or immigration facilities, they are only provided by Peel at Langton Dock. What does everyone think? Why hasn't the Pier Head got customs and immigration facilities?

[Ged]

Hello Chris. There is another thread on here http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/liverpool-news/797-liverpool-cruise-liner-terminal-52.html

The last posting on which describes the hope for a customs point at the new cruise terminal. According to Roger phillips on the BBC Radio Merseyside phone-in, Cruise companies plan about 4 years in advance and Thompson's plans were never to be at liverpool for more than this year and it was known from the outset that Langton dock was going to be their calling point as other world cities use working docks for their point of calls too.

It is a pity though that the cruise terminal cannot be extended by either demolishing that criss cross wooden structure just to the north of the new terminal or if it has to stay, then incorporate it into a longer landing stage.

[Waterways]

It is a pity though that the cruise terminal cannot be extended by either demolishing that criss cross wooden structure just to the north of the new terminal

That was the cattle stage. Cattle was unloaded there. The idea was that at any stage of the tidal fall the floating landing stage was adjacent to a level on the wooden section, so the cows could walk up to the top.

[Broliv]

Now that is interesting!

[naked lilac]

Interesting is correct ... You would of thought the planning commission would have thought of this immigration/customs office, before they embarked on cruise liners coming into the City.. Especially for 08..Is the money lost in the City Storefronts?

I would think that a Customs Office would be automatic..not to be deverted for people to disembark at a cattle ramp???

[Waterways]

Competition laws dictating development hand outs. Liverpool could not have a terminal because Mostyn on the North Wales/River Dee coast had just financed a terminal from public money. This is what happens when everything has to wait for a hand out - there are always conditions. Mostyn got the money for a proper terminal, so Liverpool had to make do with a "port of call facility'. Amazing when Liverpool was the major ship passenger port of the UK.

Ships have to approach Mostyn through a very narrow channel - the River Dee is little more than a very wide ditch. It does not have the capacity to take a number of large cruise ships. Mostyn is little more than a village. Practical aspects like ships not able to use the grant funded terminal project don't come into it.

The old Pier Head passenger processing facilities were extensive - they were taken apart in the 1970s. They echoed the facilities in Ellis Island in New York - a fantastic sight.

Back in the 1960's a similar situation arose with the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, when asked by the shipping companies to improve the facilities at the Pier Head for passengers. They said they were not interested, and were going to close the Riverside rail station too.

After around 200 years, the last scheduled trans-Atlantic passenger service left Liverpool in 1972, a Canadian Pacific Liner to Montreal - 1/2 million people lined the river see to her off. So, on the surface it appeared that MHDB were right. However, even then the cruise liner business was clearly an upcoming market. HDHB, even closed the south end docks prematurely. The large Brunswick Dock could have easily have gone on to this day - the further up river Garston Docks are still operative, even via an expensively dredged channel. Business students could have done more, their business acumen was so poor.

[Max]

Competition laws dictating development hand outs. Liverpool could not have a terminal because Mostyn on the North Wales/River Dee coast had just financed a terminal from public money. This is what happens when everything has to wait for a hand out - there are always conditions. Mostyn got the money for a proper terminal, so Liverpool had to make do with a "port of call facility'. Amazing when Liverpool was the major ship passenger port of the UK.

Ships have to approach Mostyn through a very narrow channel - the River Dee is little more than a very wide ditch. It does not have the capacity to take a number of large cruise ships. Mostyn is little more than a village. Practical aspects like ships not able to use the grant funded terminal project don't come into it.

The old Pier Head passenger processing facilities were extensive - they were taken apart in the 1970s. They echoed the facilities in Ellis Island in New York - a fantastic sight.

Back in the 1960's a similar situation arose with the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, when asked by the shipping companies to improve the facilities at the Pier Head for passengers. They said they were not interested, and were going to close the Riverside rail station too.

After around 200 years, the last scheduled trans-Atlantic passenger service left Liverpool in 1972, a Canadian Pacific Liner to Montreal - 1/2 million people lined the river see to her off. So, on the surface it appeared that MHDB were right. However, even then the cruise liner business was clearly an upcoming market. HDHB, even closed the south end docks prematurely. The large Brunswick Dock could have easily have gone on to this day - the further up river Garston Docks are still operative, even via an expensively dredged channel. Business students could have done more, their business acumen was so poor.

So they could have ferries sailing the river Dee from the wirral or directly from Liverpool then?

I've wondered why they never have ferries going across the Dee from the Wirral or Liverpool. Well I would prefer to ferrie to North Wales over the trains anyway.

[Waterways]

So they could have ferries sailing the river Dee from the wirral or directly from Liverpool then?


I doubt if there is much demand for trips to Mostyn.

[Max]

True but the ferry trips seem so limited from Liverpool, stretching out to the North Wales coast not just Mostyn would be good.

[Devo]

Forgive my ignorance!
But, When the QE2 and Voyager of the seas ect docked at the new terminal, did their pasengers not disembark into the city to see the sights and spend their money?
Where was Customs/Immigration control then?

Langton Dock is not the place where cruise ships visiting Liverpool should go, I thought the new terminal would be for all Cruise ships.

[naked lilac]

Thanks Waterways.. very informative (as usual).. thanks.. It is a pity something can't be done for the many tourist that would come.. Even Venezia , Italy.. has many passanger cruise liners in the port ..and have made it very accessable to all who want to view their fine City...Seems only appropriate..Liverpool could do better... Interesting.. ta

[Waterways]

True but the ferry trips seem so limited from Liverpool, stretching out to the North Wales coast not just Mostyn would be good.

There were trips, in the summer, to Llandudno. John Lennon frequented them.

[Waterways]

Forgive my ignorance!
But, When the QE2 and Voyager of the seas ect docked at the new terminal, did their pasengers not disembark into the city to see the sights and spend their money?
Where was Customs/Immigration control then?


There is no baggage handling and limited passport control, probably done mainly on board ship.

[Waterways]

...

[Waterways]

Thanks Waterways.. very informative (as usual).. thanks.. It is a pity something can't be done for the many tourist that would come.. Even Venezia , Italy.. has many passanger cruise liners in the port ..and have made it very accessable to all who want to view their fine City...Seems only appropriate..Liverpool could do better... Interesting.. ta

As a port of call, Liverpool has limited attraction, however they do come. The business of starting and ending cruises in the port is what is needed, as people all over the north of England, the Midlands, Wales and Scotland will descend on the city to take the cruises. However extensive passenger processing facilities are needed. If a ship operates from a port on a regular basis, there is also spin off business of revamping a ship. Canadian Pacific ships would enter the docks and 1000s of people would descend on the ship, to paint, repair cabins, overall engines, get electrics right, etc.

The tallest, widest and longest passenger ship in the world is the Queen Mary 2 (not the largest in tonnage, but there are a few differing ways of calculating this). Liverpool docks are deep enough for the QM2, but the lock gates are not wide enough. The gates were sized for the likes of the Lusitania and Titanic.

For nearly 40 years the port has needed at least one set of very wide river locks. If they are built, and there are no plans to, post-Panamax container ships (14,000 containers as opposed to 8,000) can enter the enclosed dock system and the QM2 as well. Also the new navy aircraft carriers which will be not short in size of the USS Enterprise, could enter and use the dry dock facilities too - so the government may pay towards widening the locks with some luck.

Post-panamax ships will berth in the tidal river and rest on the riverbed at low tide. What is needed is dry docks ship repair facilities for them, then the port is more attractive because if they have a structural problem it can be repaired quickly and in a regular port of call.

[irishseashipping.com]

True but the ferry trips seem so limited from Liverpool, stretching out to the North Wales coast not just Mostyn would be good.

It should be remembered that when the present ROYAL DAFFODIL was rebuilt in 1999 it was intended that it would be able to operate short cruises along the north Wales coast.

This has never materialised. Though a berthing trial was undertaken at Llandudno Pier around three summers ago.

Now the berthing head at Llandudno has been damaged by bad weather during the 2006/7 and 2007/8 winters even the occasional visit by Waverley Steam Navigation Co's BALMORAL is unable to use Llandudno.

John

[Max]

It should be remembered that when the present ROYAL DAFFODIL was rebuilt in 1999 it was intended that it would be able to operate short cruises along the north Wales coast.

This has never materialised. Though a berthing trial was undertaken at Llandudno Pier around three summers ago.

Now the berthing head at Llandudno has been damaged by bad weather during the 2006/7 and 2007/8 winters even the occasional visit by Waverley Steam Navigation Co's BALMORAL is unable to use Llandudno.

John

Thats a shame, I would much prefer to ferry to North Wales than getting the train to Chester first.

Going to wait till I can drive though.

[gregs dad]

8427
Heres the Saga Rose heading for the Langton Dock in July, imagine looking
over the rail of the ship at your port of call and seeing all that scrap.

[Paddy]

I have a question does anyone remember a huge amount of wreckage on the mersey in the late fithties or early sixties :ninja:

[Waterways]

8427
Heres the Saga Rose heading for the Langton Dock in July, imagine looking
over the rail of the ship at your port of call and seeing all that scrap.

All because Thatcher decided to ruin the Sheffield steel industry.

[Paddy]

Thats how it appeared to me on the ferry as a kid rusty mess.

[Howie]

Fred Olsen Line ready to quit city
Nov 28 2008
Barry Turnbull

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/liverpoolpost/nov2008/7/9/E1DAC8E4-D8FF-763C-3DD1D441D5580A8E.jpg

A SECOND cruise line is set to snub Liverpool in a new row over berthing facilities.

Fred Olsen is ready to pull out because it is unable to base a ship at the Cruise Liner Terminal, at the Pier Head, and is currently forced to tie up alongside eyesore scrapyards in Bootle?s docklands.

The company says it can no longer expect passengers to start a dream holiday in a dismal industrial area.

A few weeks ago, Thomson Cruise pulled the plug on a 30- voyage programme after trialling the unsightly berth at Langton Dock.

Both lines claim they thought the terminal at the city?s waterfront would be available to use, but it has neither the necessary Customs or baggage handling facilities. At the moment, it can only be used as a port of call.

More (http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/regional-news/2008/11/28/fred-olsen-line-ready-to-quit-city-64375-22359542/)...

[Max]

Competition laws dictating development hand outs. Liverpool could not have a terminal because Mostyn on the North Wales/River Dee coast had just financed a terminal from public money. This is what happens when everything has to wait for a hand out - there are always conditions. Mostyn got the money for a proper terminal, so Liverpool had to make do with a "port of call facility'. Amazing when Liverpool was the major ship passenger port of the UK.

Ships have to approach Mostyn through a very narrow channel - the River Dee is little more than a very wide ditch. It does not have the capacity to take a number of large cruise ships. Mostyn is little more than a village. Practical aspects like ships not able to use the grant funded terminal project don't come into it.

The old Pier Head passenger processing facilities were extensive - they were taken apart in the 1970s. They echoed the facilities in Ellis Island in New York - a fantastic sight.

Back in the 1960's a similar situation arose with the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, when asked by the shipping companies to improve the facilities at the Pier Head for passengers. They said they were not interested, and were going to close the Riverside rail station too.

After around 200 years, the last scheduled trans-Atlantic passenger service left Liverpool in 1972, a Canadian Pacific Liner to Montreal - 1/2 million people lined the river see to her off. So, on the surface it appeared that MHDB were right. However, even then the cruise liner business was clearly an upcoming market. HDHB, even closed the south end docks prematurely. The large Brunswick Dock could have easily have gone on to this day - the further up river Garston Docks are still operative, even via an expensively dredged channel. Business students could have done more, their business acumen was so poor.

After seeing the Dee again today I agree that the Dee Is a very wide ditch. It dries out worse than the Mersey does near the Speke end.

Some Liverpool documentry on yesterday went on about the Mersey being a crazy place to put a port strangely too but the Mersey handles ships no problem.

[Broliv]

The Mersey originally was only intended as a spring anchorage that is where we get our name from (le = the, ver = spring, pool= anchorage. Latin if anyone is interested).

During the winter its almost untenable even now. Its only through the astute business foresight from the people who paid for the original docks (the city i believe) and engineering prowess of the people who designed and built it that we made the river a tenable place to dock ships.

[Bernie]

[QUOTE=Broliv;157061]The Mersey originally was only intended as a spring anchorage that is where we get our name from (le = the, ver = spring, pool= anchorage. Latin if anyone is interested). [QUOTE]

There is no seperate word for "The" in Latin.

[Broliv]

true, got mixed up with the french

[Waterways]

Some Liverpool documentry on yesterday went on about the Mersey being a crazy place to put a port strangely too but the Mersey handles ships no problem.

200,000 ton tankers pass the Liver Buildings. The Mersey is one of the few rivers that is not funnel shaped. The river has narrows which widens out to a large estuary basin. The 4th highest tidal range means water rushes past the narrows between Liverpool centre and Birkenhead. This rush of strong current water keeps the narrows clear and deep - a tidal scour. Sand from Liverpool Bay is dumped in the estuary basin - it is taken out on the ebb tide. Why the Mersey has that brown colour to the water, except when the tide turns and it is still. The Mersey is only place on the north west coast where a large sheltered deep water port can be located.

The port is well sheltered from the Irish sea winds and storms. In the olden dayes, ships were not that big and the depth did not matter too much. The shelter and easy overland access to the towns in the hinterland mattered. Also, smaller barges (Mersey flats), could sail way inland, up the Mersey and Weaver, and even up canals.

The port got bigger and better when the steam engine was invented and docks could be impounded (deepened) and large river-lock gates opened and closed. All this would be useless unless the river was naturally deep as ships became much bigger with deep draughts below the waterline - unlike todays ships which have shallow draughts and flat bottoms.

Many important and busy ports virtually disappeared when the steam engine and large ships came about, Lancaster and Bristol to name two.

Entering the port was difficult as ships tended to sail past the end of the Wirral and turn right into the river - over time sand banks shifted, so channels shifted too. Some came in via Formby point which was a straight run in. Large ships could only sail in via Formby. The Crosby Channel was deepened and underwater training walls built, which create a strong current, to keep the channel clear. This is the prime run in now.

[Paddy]

I have been perusing a picture in the Walker that depicts the new look Liverpool. It is more than a sparsley populated depiction, there ain't any people in it at all. Bring back Lowry I say. However it is quite interesting. Having owned a boat on the Grand Union I noticed that the canal has quite lenghty tunnels around the Pier Head, when it is up and running it will be interesting. It looks like once you have got out out the darkness you have four locks to negotiate. :ninja:

[gregs dad]

Not till you reach the Stanley Dock Paddy here`s the locks
canal locks,liverpool on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/exacta2a/540912314/)

[Broliv]

I'm hoping to take a rib up the canal when it opens from Brunswick to Stanley dock

[Howie]

Liverpool?s Pier Head aims to become a base for cruise liners
Dec 16 2008
by David Bartlett, Liverpool Daily Post

TALKS are under way to secure ?significant investment? for upgrading Liverpool?s Pier Head to become a base for cruise liners to start and finish their journeys, it emerged last night.

Liverpool City Council (LCC) and Peel Ports ? which owns Mersey Docks and Harbour Company (MDHC) ? are negotiating for baggage handling facilities, Customs, or immigration services to be developed near the Cruise Liner Terminal.

More (http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/regional-news/2008/12/16/liverpool-s-pier-head-aims-to-become-a-base-for-cruise-liners-64375-22484097/)...

[Kev]

That's fab news Howie. I was suprised to learn that these facilities were not available anyway, could this not have been sorted during the initial planning and building a few years ago, did know one as 'the question'?

Anyways, onwards and upwards!

[Waterways]

That's fab news Howie. I was suprised to learn that these facilities were not available anyway, could this not have been sorted during the initial planning and building a few years ago, did know one as 'the question'?


Competition laws dictating development hand outs. Liverpool could not have a terminal because Mostyn on the North Wales/River Dee coast had just financed a terminal from public money. This is what happens when everything has to wait for a hand out - there are always conditions. Mostyn got the money for a proper terminal, so Liverpool had to make do with a "port of call facility'. Amazing when Liverpool was the major ship passenger port of the UK.

Ships have to approach Mostyn through a very narrow channel - the River Dee is little more than a very wide ditch. It does not have the capacity to take a number of large cruise ships. Mostyn is little more than a village. Practical aspects like ships not able to use the grant funded terminal project don't come into it.

The old Pier Head passenger processing facilities were extensive - they were taken apart in the 1970s. They echoed the facilities in Ellis Island in New York - a fantastic sight.

Back in the 1960's a similar situation arose with the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, when asked by the shipping companies to improve the facilities at the Pier Head for passengers. They said they were not interested, and were going to close the Riverside rail station too.

After around 200 years, the last scheduled trans-Atlantic passenger service left Liverpool in 1972, a Canadian Pacific Liner to Montreal - 1/2 million people lined the river see to her off. So, on the surface it appeared that MDHB were right as air travel was rapidly pushing liner travel into obscurity. However, even then the cruise liner business was clearly an upcoming market and probably what the ship owners were looking at for the future. MDHB, even closed the south end docks prematurely. The large Brunswick Dock could have easily have gone on to this day - the further up river Garston Docks are still operative, even via an expensively dredged channel. First year business students could have done more, the business acumen of MDHB was so poor.

[Kev]

Cheers for the info WW

[tezmac]

Any one got a timetable of the liners visiting Liverpool this year

[irishseashipping.com]

Any one got a timetable of the liners visiting Liverpool this year

My web site currently has a listing of cruise ship calls at most Irish Sea ports. The Liverpool entry can be found by scrolling down the England file.

http://www.irishseashipping.com/minfo/cruiseshipcalls/2009/csENGLAND09.htm

Please note that this is not yet complete and the information is forwarded to me by someone who has made an indepth study of many cruise line 2nd Edition brochures and may be subject to change.

Calls are subject to change and note the colour coding - calls at the stage are shown in red. Black indicates Langton Cruise terminal.

In due course an official list is likely to appear on Peel Ports web site - however at present http://www.merseydocks.co.uk/downloads/ is still showing the 2008 list.

Hope this helps

John

[julieoapw]

The Culture Company has a downloadable list of cruise liners visiting the city http://sites.liverpool08.com/cruise/...ndar/index.asp here.

[marky]

Ark Royal tomorrow according to the Echo:
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2009/01/14/ark-royal-tour-plan-100252-22687696/

[gregs dad]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3084/3199926550_d86cd0e08d_o.jpg
The river reflecting in the windows of the museum you can see the Ark in the left hand corner
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3076/3199080713_e5e45e9749_o.jpg
framed in the structure of the ferry
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3493/3199080963_54ffe93738_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3130/3199927024_3063722fab_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3117/3199081271_885e41e5d5_o.jpg
Left Kirkby at 1300hrs was on the ferry at 1400 hrs all on public transport for free, ee it`s good being a pensioner.
Weather wasn`t very bright.I wonder if any of thse were Yo Liverpool members

[Samp]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3084/3199926550_d86cd0e08d_o.jpg
The river reflecting in the windows of the museum you can see the Ark in the left hand corner
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3076/3199080713_e5e45e9749_o.jpg
framed in the structure of the ferry
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3493/3199080963_54ffe93738_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3130/3199927024_3063722fab_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3117/3199081271_885e41e5d5_o.jpg
Left Kirkby at 1300hrs was on the ferry at 1400 hrs all on public transport for free, ee it`s good being a pensioner.
Weather wasn`t very bright.I wonder if any of thse were Yo Liverpool members

On the ball again GD. Good pictures!

[lindylou]

[QUOTE=gregs dad;.
.I wonder if any of thse were Yo Liverpool members[/QUOTE]

I always wonder the same thing when I see someone with a camera :)