St James Church dig up 2,500 bodies, including slaves

[Kev]

THOUSANDS of bodies could be exhumed by the Church of England under a project to help bring a historic Liverpool church back to life.

The Diocese of Liverpool cannot afford to renovate the historic St James Church in the shadow of the city?s Anglican Cathedral.

But it says it could bankroll a redevelopment by building a three-storey office and apart-ment block in the grounds.

That could mean having to disturb the last resting place of those buried at the church, including many former slaves.

Last night, a Diocesan spokesman confirmed: ?Church records show that there may be the remains of 2,500 bodies that the Diocese may want to exhume and reinter.?

The Bishop of Liverpool, the Right Rev James Jones, is behind the vision to bring St James?s back to life.

Church authorities now want to dig test pits to find out what state the bodies buried there are in.

Strict guidelines control re-burial of human remains, and the interment process could still prove prohibitively costly.

The Diocese wants to build the block along Upper Stanhope Street, in Toxteth. The ?8.7m project will include ?1.9m of renovations to the church.

Rent-paying tenants in the offices and flats would provide an income for the church, which needs a new roof, extensive point-ing and a interior refurbishment.

Project leader Rev Neil Short said last night: ?These explora-tions are vital to see whether we can carry on with the project to develop a new church at St James.

?We are very aware that work of this kind can create sensitivities among a number of people, and are keen to show that we are doing this in the most responsible way possible.

?We are taking expert architectural and archaeological advice on the best way forward, and will carry out all work according to legal guidelines.?

A spokesperson for the Diocese added: ?We want to be honest and open. We don?t want people driving past the graveyard and seeing that there?s digging going and wondering what it is.

?The exciting thing is we?ve got a vision for a church to come back into use for the community.?

St James?s closed its doors in the mid-1970s, but the last burial was in 1898 and the Diocese says ?very few? took place after 1851.

The Diocese are planning to build a block containing up to 20 units of ?supported housing? over administration and conference areas. The flats will provide capital funds and income for the church, which will be connected to the block via its lobby. The building will have a footprint of around 1,200 sq m.

The ground floor will include offices, seminar rooms, a lounge, a kitchen and toilets.

Some of the office space will be leased on a long term basis. The Anthony Walker Foundation ? set up in honour of the murdered Huyton school boy ? has expressed an interest in taking on some of the offices. A public information document circulated by Rev Short adds: ?The aim is to plant a creative open evangelical church in the centre of Liverpool to connect with the growing residential population and the huge transient population who work, socialise or attend university in the city.

?It will bring a transforming Christian presence into a largely unchurched area. Fundamentally, we hope that this will become a beacon church inside and outside the city and diocese of Liverpool.

?St James is a much loved treasure, a link to our history and of enormous townscape value.?

Having cost ?3,000 to build, the church was consecrated in July, 1775, and is one of the oldest standing Liverpool churches. It is also thought to be the oldest British building using cast-iron pillars.

Many slave traders frequented the church and some of their slaves were baptised there. The Diocese thinks black slaves may be among those whose final resting places will be disturbed. It says it has been in discussions with Liverpool?s International Slavery Museum about the possible exhumations.

Richard Benjamin, head of the museum, confirmed he was work-ing with church representatives to look into putting on an exhibition about the history of St James.

Cllr Steve Munby, whose Riverside ward covers St James, discovered his great-great-great-great-grandfather was buried in the church in the early 19th century.

He told the Daily Post: ?I?m supporting this as a local coun-cillor. It?s a thoroughly positive development.

?I 100% support this and congratulate Neil and other stakeholders who are trying to bring this wonderful building back into use.

?Whenever there?s an issue about disturbing graves, it?s a very sensitive issue. But all the people laid to rest hopefully will be managed sensitively.

?Rather than our ancestors being buried near a ruined church, it will be better to bring it back in use.?

benschofield LDP

[Ged]

Well I didn't know about the cast iron pillars to be honest (thought only St. Georges and St Michaels had these) and certainly didn't know about the slaves, of which I thought there were only supposed to be a handful that ever set foot here.

[fortinian]

I'm glad the Church is overseeing this project and not some developer given free reign - I'm sure the bodies will be treated with great respect and sensitivity.

I'm also very glad that the church is so open about what it wants to do, at least this way it can diffuse any conspiracy theories about mass graves that certain people may want to invent.

St James is a lovely old church and i'm glad it can be saved.

[taffy]

St James Church is a surviving example of the early use of thin cast iron columns which support the balcony. It wasn't the first to use these. From memory this was an industrial building in Shrewsbury, Shropshire

There is no evidence that slaves were buried at St James. The ownership of slaves in England was abolished in England before St James was built in 1775. There may be some black servants buried there.

[No-ones_Princess]

I am not really a religious person but on reading the article that Kev so kindly posted up I was reminded of the story of the temple being used to trade. Now I do understand that the churches of certain denominations struggle particularily if there is a pretty or prestegious place to worship and that there is a need to grow and bring religion out into the community or religion but is this not the same as trading in the temple? I am not saying aye just offering it up as a talking point. :PDT_Xtremez_42:

I am sure the bodies will be treated with respect.

[taffy]

I am not really a religious person but on reading the article that Kev so kindly posted up I was reminded of the story of the temple being used to trade. Now I do understand that the churches of certain denominations struggle particularily if there is a pretty or prestegious place to worship and that there is a need to grow and bring religion out into the community or religion but is this not the same as trading in the temple? I am not saying aye just offering it up as a talking point. :PDT_Xtremez_42:

I am sure the bodies will be treated with respect.

Exhumation of remains and reinterment to reuse part or all of a churchyard has of course gone on for centuries. Not least at St James, Toxteth around 1900 when part of the churchyard was removed for road widening purposes. The same happened at St Nicholas Pierhead, Liverpool and that famous parish churchyard, St Peter's Church St Liverpool has been completed subsumed to mammon, the latest incarnation of which is the Liverpool One shopping centre entrance off Church Street.

Many may not know that the now demolished Myrtle St Children's Hospital was built on the site of St Mary's graveyard.

[Ged]

And I believe Myrtle Gardens was built on the site of the Holy innocents and orphanage which had a graveyard (hence nearby Orphan st)?

[No-ones_Princess]

Exhumation of remains and reinterment to reuse part or all of a churchyard has of course gone on for centuries. Not least at St James, Toxteth around 1900 when part of the churchyard was removed for road widening purposes. The same happened at St Nicholas Pierhead, Liverpool and that famous parish churchyard, St Peter's Church St Liverpool has been completed subsumed to mammon, the latest incarnation of which is the Liverpool One shopping centre entrance off Church Street.


Road widening is not something which trades and although I expect great sums of money will have changed hands its not the same as trading in the temple.

I really love YO though for the knowledge gained :)

[Waterways]

Well I didn't know about the cast iron pillars to be honest (thought only St. Georges and St Michaels had these) and certainly didn't know about the slaves, of which I thought there were only supposed to be a handful that ever set foot here.

The "slaves" were no doubt, ex slaves, and were legitimately employed by people. Ex slaves worked on ships as cabin boys and the likes and ended up in Liverpool as free people.

My cousin was married there just before the church closed.

The church was a partial cast iron structure - the oldest they say was in Shrewsbury I believe, a flax mill, Ditherington Flax Mill in Shrewsbury. It is supposed to be the first iron-framed building in the world. Built in 1797, its fireproof combination of cast iron columns and cast iron beams developed into the modern steel frame which made skyscrapers possible. It was not a full iron frame though, with some walls being structural.

St. James' Church predates it by 22 years. Although the church was not an iron framed as such, just using cast iron columns. Iron was not used for the floors. St. James' church is construction-wise one of the most important buildings in the world.

[burkhilly]

At first I thought they were going to demolish the church and was ready to chain myself to the railings!

I work a couple of streets away from the church and it really is lovely. It's not used, and is just falling apart through lack of maintenance - so the plan may work to save the building. However, there's something not quite right removing people from their final resting places so I'm not sure if I agree with this proposed plan.

[Cadfael]

Is nothing sacred? Can't people rest in peace? It just smacks of money again.

Firstly they plonk a stupid rabbit on the tower which will have cost thousands, now some rich money grabber wants the land for new offices and is prepared to dig up hundreds of bodies.

:PDT_Xtremez_12:

[taffy]

Is nothing sacred? Can't people rest in peace? It just smacks of money again.

Firstly they plonk a stupid rabbit on the tower which will have cost thousands, now some rich money grabber wants the land for new offices and is prepared to dig up hundreds of bodies.

:PDT_Xtremez_12:

I think the funding for the sheltered housing/office development will be self generated through grants etc. It's not a commercial development but rather a Church initiative. The income from the building will help fund the running of the Church which has been subject to extensive vandalism over the years and has not been used as a church since the mid 1970s.

With regards to bodies resting in peace, you'll know about the "bone house" at All Saints Church, Childwall. Such charnel houses were a common feature of English Parish Churches. These bodies certainly did not rest in peace. This will not happen at St James. The bones will be reintered in the same churchyard. The 2500 bodies is an estimate based on the area of land needed for the development.

[wsteve55]

Well I didn't know about the cast iron pillars to be honest (thought only St. Georges and St Michaels had these) and certainly didn't know about the slaves, of which I thought there were only supposed to be a handful that ever set foot here.

You are right, Ged,mainly,these would be "personal" slaves/servants!

[taffy]

Road widening is not something which trades and although I expect great sums of money will have changed hands its not the same as trading in the temple.

I really love YO though for the knowledge gained :)

Interestingly the nave of the Parish church historically belonged to the parishioners and the chancel to the rector. As such the nave was also essentially the village hall and much business was carried on there. This secular use of the nave did at times cause problems. The St James development is Church originated and not an external speculatice devlopment. It relates to the churchyard and not the Church

[Max]

Hope that piece of crap green light gets taken off the church. Artists are getting worse.

Glad to see It's being renovated though.

[Spike]

Is nothing sacred? Can't people rest in peace? It just smacks of money again.

Firstly they plonk a stupid rabbit on the tower which will have cost thousands, now some rich money grabber wants the land for new offices and is prepared to dig up hundreds of bodies.

:PDT_Xtremez_12:

Is true, but when i went up there two weeks ago i could not see a gravestone? i may have missed them as workmen where there. If there is no gravestones, then maybe it would be better to move them, this way they should get some kind of marker and can be remembered. i for one had no idea that there where ex slaves buried there, letting the public know would be a fantastic tribute to them.

The grave yard down below the Anglican Cathedral, is this not connected to St James? im sure i read it somewhere? ( mind you im sure some people are aliens ) i could be wrong? is this graveyard older than the cathedral?

[Ronijayne]

Anyone have a photo of this church and churchyard as it looks now?

[Waterways]

Anyone have a photo of this church and churchyard as it looks now?

Do a Google :)

http://www.stjamestoxteth.co.uk/images/stjames.jpg

[A.D.W]

Anyone have a photo of this church and churchyard as it looks now?


http://www.liverpoolviews.co.uk/south/stjames/stjames2008089.jpg

http://www.liverpoolviews.co.uk/south/stjames/stjames20080811.jpg

http://www.liverpoolviews.co.uk/south/stjames/stjames20080813.jpg

and

http://www.liverpoolviews.co.uk/south/stjames/stjames20080812.jpg

[taffy]

Is true, but when i went up there two weeks ago i could not see a gravestone? i may have missed them as workmen where there. If there is no gravestones, then maybe it would be better to move them, this way they should get some kind of marker and can be remembered. i for one had no idea that there where ex slaves buried there, letting the public know would be a fantastic tribute to them.

The grave yard down below the Anglican Cathedral, is this not connected to St James? im sure i read it somewhere? ( mind you im sure some people are aliens ) i could be wrong? is this graveyard older than the cathedral?

All the gravestones bar one were taken away at the turn of the 20th C by Liverpool City Council and the grounds turned into an ornamental garden . It's a shame these grounds have largely been neglected over the last 100 years, no least the crumbling wall bounding Upper Parliament St. Would it were a Green Flag Park like St Nicholas , Pierhead, where also all the gravestones and bodies were removed around 1900.

There's no connection I 'm aware of between St James Churchyard and St James Cemetery.

[taffy]

Anyone have a photo of this church and churchyard as it looks now?

See Church web site

Homepage | Pioneer Ministry in Liverpool City Centre (http://www.liverpoolpioneerministry.org.uk/)

Also

Lancashire OnLine Parish Clerk Project - Parish of St James, Toxteth (http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Liverpool/Toxteth/indexsj.html)

and

St James Church in Toxteth (http://www.liverpoolviews.co.uk/south/stjames/stjames1.html)

[Kev]

Excellent pics AD and thanks for the posts, really helpful and informative. :PDT11

[Ronijayne]

Thank you so much for the pics. It has been a beautiful church, the 'bones' of it are lovely although it looks cold and lonely now.

[taffy]

Here's a few internal photos I took in 2003 following some internal refurbishment, rewiring , plastering etc.

[naked lilac]

It definitely, by the pictures, needs some flowers in my opinion to brighten it up ... :Smiliz_Kingz_PDT_13

[Kev]

Thanks for the pics :PDT11

[taffy]

It definitely, by the pictures, needs some flowers in my opinion to brighten it up ... :Smiliz_Kingz_PDT_13

The church has been a wreck for 30 years suffering the ravages of vandalism and arson following its closure. Part of the rationale behind themulti million pound project is to bring the church back to life. Flowers will look nice but it will take a lot more than that !!!

[Klaatu]

This is a fascinating and informative thread. I've walked past that church literally hundreds of times over the years and knew none of this information.
I hope it all turns out for the better and they treat the bodies with the utmost respect.

[naked lilac]

The church has been a wreck for 30 years suffering the ravages of vandalism and arson following its closure. Part of the rationale behind themulti million pound project is to bring the church back to life. Flowers will look nice but it will take a lot more than that !!!

Yes, I understand that fully Taffy. I have read about this task.. I was just commenting on the pic, that just captured my eye , as bleak.. Just a little comment of open thought there.. :)

Glad something is being done about restoring it.. and hopefully, they due take care in the respect of the bodies.

[Cadfael]

I think it stinks to be honest. Moving bodies for a purpose such as a church extension or when a church has been demolished is one thing - i.e. for the good of the congregation, but to move bodies simply because there will be a load of money to be made in this project stinks.

Whether the church is redundant or not, it is in that state for a reason, simply because there are no church goers who continued to support the church. For the church to re-open, there has to be a need of a new congregation, not just because someone can make a load of money out of it.

[Ged]

On the contrary Cad, i'd say that to demolish a church to cash in on the land and build swanky apartments and make yourself a fortune is one thing, but they seem to be doing this here out of need to restore the church to a new congregation perhaps from the new dwellings appearing down that way?

[taffy]

On the contrary Cad, i'd say that to demolish a church to cash in on the land and build swanky apartments and make yourself a fortune is one thing, but they seem to be doing this here out of need to restore the church to a new congregation perhaps from the new dwellings appearing down that way?

This is the only case I know of a redundant church being brought back to community use as a church. As such the project should be supported. The accomodation will not be swanky apartments but sheltered housing for the disadvantaged

[wsteve55]

I think it stinks to be honest. Moving bodies for a purpose such as a church extension or when a church has been demolished is one thing - i.e. for the good of the congregation, but to move bodies simply because there will be a load of money to be made in this project stinks.

Whether the church is redundant or not, it is in that state for a reason, simply because there are no church goers who continued to support the church. For the church to re-open, there has to be a need of a new congregation, not just because someone can make a load of money out of it.

I think they should be commended, for even thinking of moving the bodies,whatever the purpose! In Liverpool, they used to just build over them,e.g. St. ??? church and graveyard, in Paradise st, "White City" dogtrack, once in Lower Breck rd,St.Oswalds junior school, in Old Swan,etc!

[fortinian]

...Oswalds junior school, in Old Swan,etc!

Don't mean to be an off-topic pedant but;

I believe that at the 1973(ish)? building of the junior school the bodies found in St Oswalds old churchyard were disinterred and respectfully cremated at Anfield crematorium.

There was a letter from the guy in charge of it in the Echo a few years ago when Tom Slemen tried to create a conspiracy theory about it.

[wsteve55]

Well,I was mixing it a bit!
My point being,that the authorities didn't always take the expected/assumed course of action, in these situations.Another example,is/was the Necropolis/Grant gardens.Apparently,after some digging around for the proposed tram-line, human remains were found,so some, if not all, former tenants, remain! :034::eek:

[fortinian]

You are right though... dead bodies of the poor and the weak were of little note to the planners of Victorian 'progress'.

It is rather ironic that we get so worked up today about modern planners destroying Victorian buildings when the Victorians themselves were so keen on the destruction of the past for the 'improvement' and 'modernisation' that the Industrial age entailed.

We are fortunate today that the planners are more enlightened to the pleas of the masses and will often - but not always - take into account historical value when they carry out work.

[Ronijayne]

Is that St. Oswald's church in Old Swan with the wishing well in the garden? I was christened there.

[Ged]

There's a whole thread on the mass grave in Old Swan here Ronijayne.


http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/folklore-oddities/2852-mass-grave-old-swan.html






.

[Waterways]

From that thread...

'I gave order to burn bodies'

Mar 2 2006

Maghull & Aintree Star

AS WITNESSED by the huge amount of correspondence received at Merseymart & Star , Tom Slemen's article on the Mass Grave discovered in Old Swan in 1973 drew reaction from many readers.

One letter that took issue with criminologist Keith Andrews's claims of a systematic massacre of Irish immigrants at the site in around 1848 was written by Liverpool's former principal environmental health officer, Ken Williams, who was in charge of the 1973 exhumation.

Printed here, it relates to this specific event - not the broader issues regarding the military and the treatment of the Irish.

Speaking to Merseymart & Star , he said: "I held my position from 1949 to 1989 and the first thing to note is that if you wanted to build or extend on sacred ground you had to consult the Home Office, which would in turn speak to the town clerk, who would then instruct me.

"The reason there were hoardings was that the Home Office's principal instruction is total decorum, and in this case there were houses on Montague Road overlooking the site.

"One comment was that these people had been shot and the Home Office were covering it up.

"The order to burn the bodies came from me and me alone - there were so many that after getting permission to put more than one in a single coffin, and re-inter them in Anfield I had to request permission for cremations.

"There were no bullet holes in the skulls, and there were already gravestones at the site - it was a marked grave..

"This discovery was simply beyond the boundary of that graveyard, extending much further than was realised - thousands more bodies.

"Contrary to one comment in the article, there were indeed coffins containing children discovered.

"There is also the obvious point that if this was the massacre of three-and-a-half-thousand people - why were they all in coffins with plaques and buried in such an ordered fashion?

"This was not people who had been thrown in a trench.

"Also, the date quoted for this 'massacre' was 1848, but some of the coffins had plaques with 1859 on them."Key role in the mass exhumation

I HAVE followed with great interest the recent articles in your paper with regard to the mass grave unearthed in St Oswald Street, Old Swan.

The principal officer delegated to be in charge of the entire operation was me.

When the original gravestones had been removed and the bodies re-interred the excavation continued beyond this boundary and it was at this stage other coffins were found. Some plaques on the coffin lids had dates of 1859, however this should not be considered to be a mass grave at any one time.

I do not recall seeing bullet marks in the skulls and the authorisation to cremate the bodies was implemented by the Home Office as the result of my request - that it should be done in the interest of public health. I know all this to be true - 'cause I was there!

K. A. WILLIAMS, Gateacre, Liverpool. (Former principal environmental health officer for Liverpool 1949-1989)

[Ged]

Just done it above WW :PDT11

[Max]

Did Tom respond to that letter?

[Waterways]

Did Tom respond to that letter?

I doubt it :)

[Max]

If there ever posted on his forums, he usually just brushes them off as jealous people writing nonsense but never read him respond to the leters on a more public newspaper.

[Ged]

You would think that part of TS and KA research would have been to find and contact KAW, possible proof that their research isn't up to much :rolleyes:

[Ronijayne]

There's a whole thread on the mass grave in Old Swan here Ronijayne.


http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/folklore-oddities/2852-mass-grave-old-swan.html






.


Wow, thank you Ged. What a good read. I read some before I went out this morning for aquatics class and could not wait to read more. My mother is from Baden Road and she and her family swear their house was haunted. They all saw a woman in grey. An ANGRY WOMAN at that, my mother said she used to hit her!! lol Never heard that before. My father who did not believe in ghosts also said he saw something and felt someone pass him when he stayed over on the couch one night when he was dating my mother. (Air raid sirens went off as he was leaving)

Now I will be google-ing to find out more about this.

[taffy]

THOUSANDS of bodies could be exhumed by the Church of England under a project to help bring a historic Liverpool church back to life.

The Diocese of Liverpool cannot afford to renovate the historic St James Church in the shadow of the city?s Anglican Cathedral.

But it says it could bankroll a redevelopment by building a three-storey office and apart-ment block in the grounds.

That could mean having to disturb the last resting place of those buried at the church, including many former slaves.


Interestingly the Diocese of Liverpool's web site makes no mention of slave graves. Where did this urban myth come from?

The Diocese of Liverpool | The Church of England (http://www.liverpool.anglican.org/index.php?p=553)

[ChrisGeorge]

Interestingly the Diocese of Liverpool's web site makes no mention of slave graves. Where did this urban myth come from?

The Diocese of Liverpool | The Church of England (http://www.liverpool.anglican.org/index.php?p=553)

Hi taffy

It seems very doubtful to me that there could be many "slave graves"--if any--at St. James's. As we have discussed, very few slaves came to Liverpool, the vast bulk having been delivered to British colonies in the West Indies rather than coming to England. As you said, if there are any graves of blacks there, it would seem more likely that they may be graves of servants.

All the best

Chris

[PhilipG]

Interestingly the Diocese of Liverpool's web site makes no mention of slave graves. Where did this urban myth come from?
The Diocese of Liverpool | The Church of England (http://www.liverpool.anglican.org/index.php?p=553)

From the first entry in this thread, because I'd never heard it before. :PDT_Piratz_26:

It's so easy to make gullible people believe anything.

[fortinian]

Turns out there is an element of truth to this tale;

Check out Friends of St James Church Toxteth (http://www.stjamestoxteth.co.uk/) and you will find a list of registers of baptisms of 'negros' in St James Toxteth.

Although most of the records just list 'negro' there are a few 'mulattos' and at least one indian but there is only one mention of slavery:

(A negro) Was Baptised; With The Consent; Approbation Of His Master Thomas Aspinall Esq.

So at least one slave was baptised there - so church certainly does seem to have links with the slave population, freed or otherwise.

There is however no mention of burials at the church, if I get the chance I might have a look at the St James records myself and see what I can find.

The full transcript of records is here St James Toxteth Website (http://www.stjamestoxteth.co.uk/black_baptisms.html)

[taffy]

Turns out there is an element of truth to this tale;

Check out Friends of St James Church Toxteth (http://www.stjamestoxteth.co.uk/) and you will find a list of registers of baptisms of 'negros' in St James Toxteth.

Although most of the records just list 'negro' there are a few 'mulattos' and at least one indian but there is only one mention of slavery:

(A negro) Was Baptised; With The Consent; Approbation Of His Master Thomas Aspinall Esq.

So at least one slave was baptised there - so church certainly does seem to have links with the slave population, freed or otherwise.

There is however no mention of burials at the church, if I get the chance I might have a look at the St James records myself and see what I can find.

The full transcript of records is here St James Toxteth Website (http://www.stjamestoxteth.co.uk/black_baptisms.html)

I suspect the negro James Thomas baptised 1792 at St James was more a servant than a slave. Ownership of slaves living in England has been abolished in England about 30 years earlier. The term Master was a commonly used to describe the employer & employee relationship. It does not imply ownership as such.

Such negro baptisms would have been fairly common in Liverpool in the last quarter of the 18th C. Many slaves fought for England during the American War of Independance and were effectively granted their freedom. Many chose to live in Canada eg Nova Scotia but they had the right to live in England.

[taffy]

Just checked out the Friends of St James Toxteth web site mentioned in an earlier message

Friends of St James Church Toxteth (http://www.stjamestoxteth.co.uk/)

I believe this group is now defunct.

[Cadfael]

Am visiting the church in the next few weeks via a contact so armed with my camera, I will take lots of pictures and report back on the interior. :PDT11

[fortinian]

Of course Taffy you are right. I didn't really know about the Somersett Case in the 1770s which effectively made it illegal for anyone to be a slave on Englands soil. So I don't know where this idea of actual slaves has come from.

I think this is just one of those many Liverpool rumours that have a root in fact but branch out to a whole canopy of historial confusion.

[ChrisGeorge]

I suspect the negro James Thomas baptised 1792 at St James was more a servant than a slave. Ownership of slaves living in England has been abolished in England about 30 years earlier. The term Master was a commonly used to describe the employer & employee relationship. It does not imply ownership as such.

Such negro baptisms would have been fairly common in Liverpool in the last quarter of the 18th C. Many slaves fought for England during the American War of Independance and were effectively granted their freedom. Many chose to live in Canada eg Nova Scotia but they had the right to live in England.

Hi taffy

Thanks, taffy. Although I do not know the full facts of the St. James's church internments or St. James cemetery burials of blacks, one of my areas of interest has been blacks in the War of 1812. I also know that, as you factually say, blacks did fight for the British during the American War of Independence. Indeed as mentioned in an article that I wrote, George, Christopher T. ?Mirage of Freedom: African Americans in the War of 1812, ? Maryland Historical Magazine, Vol. 91, No. 4 (Winter 1996): 427-450, during the Revolution, Lord Dunmore, the deposed governor of Virginia, offered freedom to escaped slaves and they fought for him in what was termed an "Ethiopian Regiment."

Similarly during the War of 1812 some 3,000 to 5,000 former slaves were transported out of the Chesapeake, largely to Halifax, Nova Scotia, and some 200 men were trained as "Colonial Marines" fighting with the British in actions in spring to fall 1814 in the Chesapeake. These latter men were later rewarded with land in Trinidad and their descendents live today in three "company towns" in Trinidad. See The Corps of Colonial Marines (http://www.mcnishandweiss.co.uk/history/colonialmarines.html), research by John McNish Weiss.

All the best

Chris

[fortinian]

This is really a facinating thread.

Thanks ChrisGeorge and Taffy.

[Cadfael]

Wanting to find out whether this story was tripe from the local rag (as usual), I contacted the new vicar and offered to design and promote a website on the plight of St James. With that, and with interest in what lay in the bell tower, I was invited down to the church today to be given full access by the Vicar.

The vicar is not requesting any further tours because of the condition of the whole church. Today was at my own risk and only because I had been in and out of bell chambers for 25 years. He has not yet seen the bell chamber himself and was happy for me to show him around!

We also went down in to the cellar system in which the night vision on the camera came in handy.

As usual, the local rag got it wrong. At this stage, all ideas are being considered, from digging up the bodies to just rafting over the entire site and building an extension to the church on one side.

It is a lovely lovely church and I only wish I could own it myself!

Reaching the tower was by a new set of wooden steps (there had been a fire in the tower at some point), followed by two rather shaky ladders and then up in to the clock room and bell frame. There appears to be a totally unused bell frame with a single bell (about 13cwt - no inscription) but it was very good to see inside such a rare place.

There were lots of memorials inside the church, some dedicated to slave traders!!

I will issue more pictures once the website is up and running, again please don't pester the vicar for a visit as it won't happen, but I have no problems in sharing my pictures so you can all have a nose - feel free to pass them on but they are copyright of me so permission if you want to use them elsewhere.

Cad.


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[Kev]

Cheers for the pics Cad :PDT_Piratz_26:

[robbo176]

excellent photos Cad :PDT_Piratz_26:

[anonymouse]

Interesting pics, Cad, thank you.

To go off topic for a mo', just as as a matter of interest, does anyone know the significance of the 'rabbit'(?) on the church bell tower? There's a polar bear on the building on the corner of Prescot Road /Sheil Road in similar style.

Anon

[burkhilly]

Great Photos - thanks for posting.

[taffy]

Interesting pics, Cad, thank you.

To go off topic for a mo', just as as a matter of interest, does anyone know the significance of the 'rabbit'(?) on the church bell tower? There's a polar bear on the building on the corner of Prescot Road /Sheil Road in similar style.

Anon

It's part of the Liverpool Biennial Arts Festival

[annajane]

Thanks very much for sharing the photos Cad :)


It's part of the Liverpool Biennial Arts Festival
Oh thank God, that means it can't last forever, right? It's hideous.

[Cadfael]

Thanks very much for sharing the photos Cad :)


Oh thank God, that means it can't last forever, right? It's hideous.

Don't worry, next time I'm up the tower, I'll change the fuse so it blows when it's turned on :PDT_Aliboronz_24:

[Ronijayne]

Don't worry, next time I'm up the tower, I'll change the fuse so it blows when it's turned on :PDT_Aliboronz_24:

Your secret is safe with us:PDT_Piratz_26:

[julieoapw]

Thanks very much for sharing the photos Cad :)


Oh thank God, that means it can't last forever, right? It's hideous.

Bad luck, it's not really part of the Biennial which ends in November but something called "Winter Lights" and as such will be there until February. Artist Ron Haselden has worked with primary schools to brighten up dark empty spaces. "Rabbit" is a 20 foot neon version of a drawing by a pupil of St Vincent de Paul's primary school. If you view it from the Cathedral Estate, as you go around the Pool of Light installation, you can't see the church and it just looks like a giant rabbit bouncing in the air. I like it - I think it's fun.

[julieoapw]

Was looking up the church today and have to agree that the blacks registered there are most likely Black Loyalists. I came across an article in the Daily Post from aApril 2007 about a group called the Lighthouse who are dedicated to preserving the church - their members include Pat Neill, Robin
Riley and Lawrence Westgraph.
The article says that many Black Loyalists frequented the church and by the 1780s, many people knew that one of the best ways of protecting yourself from being enslaved again was to get baptised, hence the rush to the nearest church to be baptised!
The Parish Registers which still exist show many African and West Indian names although Lawrence also says that some of the black people in the records were definitely slaves. For instance, there's a young negro baptised in 1792, "with the consent and approbation of his master Thomas Aspinall esq." a well known slave trader from this period. The lad in question may have worked as a domestic servant but with no chance of return home, then that's surely slavery.



Hi taffy

Thanks, taffy. Although I do not know the full facts of the St. James's church internments or St. James cemetery burials of blacks, one of my areas of interest has been blacks in the War of 1812. I also know that, as you factually say, blacks did fight for the British during the American War of Independence. Indeed as mentioned in an article that I wrote, George, Christopher T. ?Mirage of Freedom: African Americans in the War of 1812, ? Maryland Historical Magazine, Vol. 91, No. 4 (Winter 1996): 427-450, during the Revolution, Lord Dunmore, the deposed governor of Virginia, offered freedom to escaped slaves and they fought for him in what was termed an "Ethiopian Regiment."

Similarly during the War of 1812 some 3,000 to 5,000 former slaves were transported out of the Chesapeake, largely to Halifax, Nova Scotia, and some 200 men were trained as "Colonial Marines" fighting with the British in actions in spring to fall 1814 in the Chesapeake. These latter men were later rewarded with land in Trinidad and their descendents live today in three "company towns" in Trinidad. See The Corps of Colonial Marines (http://www.mcnishandweiss.co.uk/history/colonialmarines.html), research by John McNish Weiss.

All the best

Chris

[burkhilly]

I thought that our website could support this event happening on 04 April 2009. I work in a school in Liverpool 8 and friends and supporters of the church have arranged this event as follows:



ST. JAMES? OPEN DAY - Saturday 04 April
Chocol8 Hunt
Aim:
? Engage with local community & provide information about what we are planning with the St. James building.
? Gain feedback about how local people think the building and churchyard could be used.

What we?re planning for the day:
2.00 ? 4.00pm
? Power point presentation about St. James church inside the building
? Display about the church
? Chocol8 Hunt (Fairtraded chocolate eggs hidden in the churchyard for children to find)
? Face painting
? Egg painting
? Beat the goalie
? Pop the balloons on the bunny
? Refreshments ? soft drinks & hot chocolate

They are sending some flyers to our school shortly, in the meantime I've just cut and pasted the info sent through today.

Hope there's some interest! Will keep you informed

[taffy]

St James Church, Toxteth has been officially closed for about 35 years. The Church of England has now officially regained legal ownership of the Church from the Churches Conservation Trust. Services have been regularly held in the church since September 2009 at 4pm on Sunday afternoons. Fascinatingly, these services are held inside a tent inside the building. So if you've ever felt the need to worship God in a tent, Liverpool now has this facility !!!

The church is run by the Rev Neil Short who has been tasked with bringing the church fully back to life. He will be officially inducted by the Bishop of Liverpool to the new Parish of Liverpool St James in the City on Sunday November 22nd at 4pm at the Church. Here's the web site for St James in the City

http://www.stjamesinthecity.org.uk/

This must be one of the few times that a redundant church building has been brought back to use as a Church.

[wsteve55]

St James Church, Toxteth has been officially closed for about 35 years. The Church of England has now officially regained legal ownership of the Church from the Churches Conservation Trust. Services have been regularly held in the church since September 2009 at 4pm on Sunday afternoons. Fascinatingly, these services are held inside a tent inside the building. So if you've ever felt the need to worship God in a tent, Liverpool now has this facility !!!

The church is run by the Rev Neil Short who has been tasked with bringing the church fully back to life. He will be officially inducted by the Bishop of Liverpool to the new Parish of Liverpool St James in the City on Sunday November 22nd at 4pm at the Church. Here's the web site for St James in the City

http://www.stjamesinthecity.org.uk/

This must be one of the few times that a redundant church building has been brought back to use as a Church.

That's certainly one for the books!! Have you been inside Taf'? I've passed it many times,but was unaware of it's status,till I saw it on here!

[ItsaZappathing]

This must be one of the few times that a redundant church building has been brought back to use as a Church.

Ready for Christmas bingo:PDT_Piratz_26:

[taffy]

That's certainly one for the books!! Have you been inside Taf'? I've passed it many times,but was unaware of it's status,till I saw it on here!

Not for a tent service but I have been inside a few times over the last few years. The tent is there simply to give a more manageable space to heat in the short term. The title of this thread is misleading as there are no current plans to dig up 2500 bodies and no slaves are buried in the churchyard

[Klaatu]

It's great to see that it's being restored for it's original purpose and not being demolished or turned into a wine bar....Good luck to everyone concerned.:PDT11

[taffy]

Ready for Christmas bingo:PDT_Piratz_26:

Well at least for the Christmas Service !!! Bingo does provide an important social function though.